Religion AND Evolution say WHAT?!?!

[QUOTE="chaoscougar1"][QUOTE="ice144"] But...how? "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." What do the non-creationists say? Do they just bend the verse around to meet their belief?XileLord

still doesn't make any sense.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Guess jesus was the first of the"Old Testamentians".

Communist_Soul

There he is talking about Divine law, not Mosaic law. In the New Testament, he had definitively abolished Mosaic law.One of the laws of Moses was that Jewish men could divorce and remarry if they found fault in their wives. Jesus told them that was not the correct thing to do, and reestablished it was wrong to divorce. That is why the Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Communities do not acknowledge divorces.

The same people who preached about magic and made up fairytales were the ones that found that the Earth revolves around the Sun and discovered the science behind gene inheritance.

Instead of keeping it to themselves, they decide to educate people that didn't believe like you, about the wonders of the world. It's a shame that those that learnt from these people have now turned their backs against them.

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

The same people who preached about magic and made up fairytales were the ones that found that the Earth revolves around the Sun and discovered the science behind gene inheritance.

Instead of keeping it to themselves, they decide to educate people that didn't believe like you, about the wonders of the world. It's a shame that those that learnt from these people have now turned their backs against them.

theSteeeeels

The answers you have now are the answers given by Christians.

Who provided you with a model of the solar system (a system where the Earth is not the centre of the universe?). Answer: Nicolas Copernicus, a Catholic priest.

Who provided the earliest models for genetic inheritance? Gregor Mendel, who was a Christian monk.

Who provided the laws of planetary motion? Johannes Kepler, who was a devout theologian.

Like I said, the answers to the universe you have now were given by the exact people who practiced and preached Christianity. The more they discovered the universe, the more they fell in love with God.

I have studied the Bible and other religious texts for 20 years, while still loving Science and education and other learning. The conclusion I get from the scriptures is to treat others with Love, respect, and live a life helping others among many other great teachings. If you think that is stupid, than so be it. I feel it's a great way to live.kev_stevens67

[QUOTE="theSteeeeels"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

The same people who preached about magic and made up fairytales were the ones that found that the Earth revolves around the Sun and discovered the science behind gene inheritance.

Instead of keeping it to themselves, they decide to educate people that didn't believe like you, about the wonders of the world. It's a shame that those that learnt from these people have now turned their backs against them.

FrozenLiquid

The answers you have now are the answers given by Christians.

Who provided you with a model of the solar system (a system where the Earth is not the centre of the universe?). Answer: Nicolas Copernicus, a Catholic priest.

Who provided the earliest models for genetic inheritance? Gregor Mendel, who was a Christian monk.

Who provided the laws of planetary motion? Johannes Kepler, who was a devout theologian.

Like I said, the answers to the universe you have now were given by the exact people who practiced and preached Christianity. The more they discovered the universe, the more they fell in love with God.

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

The answers you have now are the answers given by Christians.

Who provided you with a model of the solar system (a system where the Earth is not the centre of the universe?). Answer: Nicolas Copernicus, a Catholic priest.

Who provided the earliest models for genetic inheritance? Gregor Mendel, who was a Christian monk.

Who provided the laws of planetary motion? Johannes Kepler, who was a devout theologian.

Like I said, the answers to the universe you have now were given by the exact people who practiced and preached Christianity. The more they discovered the universe, the more they fell in love with God.

FrozenLiquid

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

mattisgod01

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]

[QUOTE="theSteeeeels"] funny thing is, how many christians actually live by these rules?? yeah, probably none. meaning every christian isnt a true christian, theyre just people who take the rules which they see fit and apply it to their lifestyle and call themselves christianCommunist_Soul

Christians get the name from Jesus Christ. This is why they are called Christians - because they believe in and follow Jesus Christ. They are not called "Old Testamentians".

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Guess jesus was the first of the"Old Testamentians".

Guess you have never read the "Sermon on the Mount" - This is where Jesus teaches love and forgiveness - something lacking in the OT laws.

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

FrozenLiquid

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

The answers you have now are the answers given by Christians.

Who provided you with a model of the solar system (a system where the Earth is not the centre of the universe?). Answer: Nicolas Copernicus, a Catholic priest.

Who provided the earliest models for genetic inheritance? Gregor Mendel, who was a Christian monk.

Who provided the laws of planetary motion? Johannes Kepler, who was a devout theologian.

Like I said, the answers to the universe you have now were given by the exact people who practiced and preached Christianity. The more they discovered the universe, the more they fell in love with God.

theSteeeeels

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

Riverwolf007

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

I don't speak for anyone else other than the Catholic Church. But yes, the Catholic Church cannot be picked apart.

Since the Protestant Reformation (500 years ago), there have been 27,000 Protestant Churches that claim to provide the truth. The Catholic Church (and the Eastern Churches), have been around for over 2000 years. I don't think there are many organizations that can claim a 2000 year rule without an iron fist.

Just for perspective, post-modernist thought, the one that is currently attacking religion, has only been around for sixty years, and it's already on the brink of keeling over. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

FrozenLiquid

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

[QUOTE="Riverwolf007"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

FrozenLiquid

I don't speak for anyone else other than the Catholic Church. But yes, the Catholic Church cannot be picked apart.

Since the Protestant Reformation (500 years ago), there have been 27,000 Protestant Churches that claim to provide the truth. The Catholic Church (and the Eastern Churches), have been around for over 2000 years. I don't think there are many organizations that can claim a 2000 year rule without an iron fist.

Just for perspective, post-modernist thought, the one that is currently attacking religion, has only been around for sixty years, and it's already on the brink of keeling over. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

FrozenLiquid

oh man good one, the religion with the "bonus books". are you being sarcastic or are you really saying that?

Riverwolf007

I'm really saying it. Sarcasm is a form of ad hominem, no? Catholics don't use ad hominem. You don't need to attack people personally when you're the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church :P

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

theSteeeeels

No one's contradicting anyone. I'm not sure if the word contradict is the right word to use here.

i was kinda messing with that poor guy but since he was the one to bring it up i don't feel bad about "picking apart" a religion.

Here is a List of Doctrines by the Catholic Church and the Bible verses that debunk them:


1. Catholics go to a priest and ask them for the forgiveness of sins.

A: "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mark 2:10

(Only Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins.)

2. Catholics pray to saints to intercede to God on their behalf.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Timothy 2:5

(And the Bible forbids us to speak to the dead. Saints are dead, and Jesus Christ is alive.)

3. Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her" Luke 1:38

(A handmaid is a female servant. The Vatican added "Queen of Heaven" to their Bible and it is forbidden to add unto the Bible. )

4. Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

(Jesus was the only perfect person on Earth and knew no sin. Mary was blessed to be chosen to open her womb for God, but she was not immaculate. She also made a sin offering for herself (two turtle doves: refer to Luke 2).

5. Catholics believe in Purgatory.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:34

(There is no purgatory written in the Bible. The Bible states there are only two places for us to go to. Heaven or Hell. There is no limbo land.)

6. Catholics call their priests "father."

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:8-10

(The Bible says not to call anyone father, rabbi or master because we only have one father in Heaven.)

7. Catholics bow down to the Pope.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

(The Pope is a man, and there is no man higher than another. All have sinned and all have fallen short. Only worship GOD and do not bow down before anyone else.)

8. Catholics Believe that they call down Jesus body to be broken and crucified again through communion.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24-25

Jesus called us to the Lord's Supper, the breaking of bread and drinking grape juice to remember him only. It is a memorial to remember what Christ has done for us on the cross. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, he did it once and for all, and that was sufficient.

9. The Catholic Church creates their own rituals and observances while the Catholic people try to complete them all so they can earn their way to Heaven.

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matthew 23:3-4

The Catholic Church creates a heavy yoke for their believers, more laws, rules, rituals and the majority of it is not a Biblical command. Jesus warned us of these. God's burden is light, not heavy. Come to him all ye weary.

[QUOTE="Riverwolf007"]

oh man good one, the religion with the "bonus books". are you being sarcastic or are you really saying that?

FrozenLiquid

I'm really saying it. Sarcasm is a form of ad hominem, no? Catholics don't use ad hominem. You don't need to attack people personally when you're the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church :P

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

FrozenLiquid

The bible was written by man and re-written many times. All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one you quoted.

No one's contradicting anyone. I'm not sure if the word contradict is the right word to use here.

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]I have studied the Bible and other religious texts for 20 years, while still loving Science and education and other learning. The conclusion I get from the scriptures is to treat others with Love, respect, and live a life helping others among many other great teachings. If you think that is stupid, than so be it. I feel it's a great way to live.theSteeeeels

This is the issue though. You believe the Bible to be false and I believe it to be true. Your intelligence has nothing to do with this. I have also been involved with scriptures, Church, education, study, for 20 years - over that now infact. There are also many intelligence and great minds who have become religious including Christianity. Are you able to prove the Bible incorrect using the intelligence you claim to have? Let's see it. If not, then how can you call it stupid?

i was kinda messing with that poor guy but since he was the one to bring it up i don't feel bad about "picking apart" a religion.

Here is a List of Doctrines by the Catholic Church and the Bible verses that debunk them:


1. Catholics go to a priest and ask them for the forgiveness of sins.

A: "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mark 2:10

(Only Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins.)

2. Catholics pray to saints to intercede to God on their behalf.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Timothy 2:5

(And the Bible forbids us to speak to the dead. Saints are dead, and Jesus Christ is alive.)

3. Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her" Luke 1:38

(A handmaid is a female servant. The Vatican added "Queen of Heaven" to their Bible and it is forbidden to add unto the Bible. )

4. Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

(Jesus was the only perfect person on Earth and knew no sin. Mary was blessed to be chosen to open her womb for God, but she was not immaculate. She also made a sin offering for herself (two turtle doves: refer to Luke 2).

5. Catholics believe in Purgatory.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:34

(There is no purgatory written in the Bible. The Bible states there are only two places for us to go to. Heaven or Hell. There is no limbo land.)

6. Catholics call their priests "father."

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:8-10

(The Bible says not to call anyone father, rabbi or master because we only have one father in Heaven.)

7. Catholics bow down to the Pope.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

(The Pope is a man, and there is no man higher than another. All have sinned and all have fallen short. Only worship GOD and do not bow down before anyone else.)

8. Catholics Believe that they call down Jesus body to be broken and crucified again through communion.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24-25

Jesus called us to the Lord's Supper, the breaking of bread and drinking grape juice to remember him only. It is a memorial to remember what Christ has done for us on the cross. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, he did it once and for all, and that was sufficient.

9. The Catholic Church creates their own rituals and observances while the Catholic people try to complete them all so they can earn their way to Heaven.

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matthew 23:3-4

The Catholic Church creates a heavy yoke for their believers, more laws, rules, rituals and the majority of it is not a Biblical command. Jesus warned us of these. God's burden is light, not heavy. Come to him all ye weary.

Riverwolf007

I was in the process of replying to all of this, then I realized,

This is the same stuff regurgitated over and over by Protestants for too many years.

I'll pray that everything works out in the end, though.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

tenaka2

The bible was written by man and re-written many times. All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one you quoted.

You've proposed two things here, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

The Bible was written many times. What are you trying to allude to?

AND

All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one I quoted. Can you provide the sources? Because I'm very unsure all cultures and religions request that they put Yahweh (yes, one particular God) above all else, in order than the second commandment is followed correctly.

While you're here, I think we had another discussion which was left unresolved. Or was it resolved? :P

[QUOTE="Riverwolf007"]

i was kinda messing with that poor guy but since he was the one to bring it up i don't feel bad about "picking apart" a religion.

Here is a List of Doctrines by the Catholic Church and the Bible verses that debunk them:


1. Catholics go to a priest and ask them for the forgiveness of sins.

A: "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mark 2:10

(Only Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins.)

2. Catholics pray to saints to intercede to God on their behalf.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Timothy 2:5

(And the Bible forbids us to speak to the dead. Saints are dead, and Jesus Christ is alive.)

3. Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her" Luke 1:38

(A handmaid is a female servant. The Vatican added "Queen of Heaven" to their Bible and it is forbidden to add unto the Bible. )

4. Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

(Jesus was the only perfect person on Earth and knew no sin. Mary was blessed to be chosen to open her womb for God, but she was not immaculate. She also made a sin offering for herself (two turtle doves: refer to Luke 2).

5. Catholics believe in Purgatory.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:34

(There is no purgatory written in the Bible. The Bible states there are only two places for us to go to. Heaven or Hell. There is no limbo land.)

6. Catholics call their priests "father."

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:8-10

(The Bible says not to call anyone father, rabbi or master because we only have one father in Heaven.)

7. Catholics bow down to the Pope.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

(The Pope is a man, and there is no man higher than another. All have sinned and all have fallen short. Only worship GOD and do not bow down before anyone else.)

8. Catholics Believe that they call down Jesus body to be broken and crucified again through communion.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24-25

Jesus called us to the Lord's Supper, the breaking of bread and drinking grape juice to remember him only. It is a memorial to remember what Christ has done for us on the cross. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, he did it once and for all, and that was sufficient.

9. The Catholic Church creates their own rituals and observances while the Catholic people try to complete them all so they can earn their way to Heaven.

"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matthew 23:3-4

The Catholic Church creates a heavy yoke for their believers, more laws, rules, rituals and the majority of it is not a Biblical command. Jesus warned us of these. God's burden is light, not heavy. Come to him all ye weary.

FrozenLiquid

I was in the process of replying to all of this, then I realized,

This is the same stuff regurgitated over and over by Protestants for too many years.

I'll pray that everything works out in the end, though.

seriously there is not another force on earth as evil as the catholic church.

second place would probably be the protestants though so it's really no biggie.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

No one's contradicting anyone. I'm not sure if the word contradict is the right word to use here.

theSteeeeels

That's exactly the point, though.

All four gospels told us of these crazy things, and they were written simply because they were told to report these crazy things. It's even written right there in the Bible that the people who saw Jesus did not believe what he was saying or doing. Only twelve men believed, and wrote down what they saw.

It's very difficult to summarize why I believe in a book that says all these things happened. There's just too much to talk about.

After 15 hundred billion years in heaven, how happy will I be?

That's hard to answer, because Heaven has no concept of time. It doesn't exist in space-time like Earth does.

See, Christians can be rational too :P

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

God's direct words were this:

"Love your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself."

That was God's exact words. What answers do we currently have that are in direct contradiction with those words? They aren't scientific words, mind you. They're moral words.

FrozenLiquid

The bible was written by man and re-written many times. All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one you quoted.

You've proposed two things here, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

The Bible was written many times. What are you trying to allude to?

AND

All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one I quoted. Can you provide the sources? Because I'm very unsure all cultures and religions request that they put Yahweh (yes, one particular God) above all else, in order than the second commandment is followed correctly.

While you're here, I think we had another discussion which was left unresolved. Or was it resolved? :P

I don't mean the exact words in the exact order. Its just common sense to be nice to your neighbour, and all religions require followers to love there gods.

I said the bible had been re-written many times. What faith are you again? Catholic?

well you should not bother since nothing will change anyway but all i am saying is the catholic doctrine is in direct oppostion with the bible and it is easily proven.

seriously there is not another force on earth as evil as the catholic church.

second place would probably be the protestants though so it's really no biggie.

Riverwolf007

...there's not another force as evil as the Catholic Church? The same Church that protected western civilization from barbarians after the Roman Empire? The same Church that defended its people from Muslim invasion? The same Church that spoke out against the holocaust? The same Church that helped bring down the fall of Communism? The same Church that is currently the most charitable organization in the world?

I'm not sure if those things are evil.

The second thing you've said confuses me. You provided all these Protestant arguments against Catholicism, yet you talk as if you're not a Protestant? Unless you're saying you are the second biggest evil in the world? I'm not sure what you're trying to say :?

[QUOTE="theSteeeeels"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

The same people who preached about magic and made up fairytales were the ones that found that the Earth revolves around the Sun and discovered the science behind gene inheritance.

Instead of keeping it to themselves, they decide to educate people that didn't believe like you, about the wonders of the world. It's a shame that those that learnt from these people have now turned their backs against them.

FrozenLiquid

The answers you have now are the answers given by Christians.

Who provided you with a model of the solar system (a system where the Earth is not the centre of the universe?). Answer: Nicolas Copernicus, a Catholic priest.

Who provided the earliest models for genetic inheritance? Gregor Mendel, who was a Christian monk.

Who provided the laws of planetary motion? Johannes Kepler, who was a devout theologian.

Like I said, the answers to the universe you have now were given by the exact people who practiced and preached Christianity. The more they discovered the universe, the more they fell in love with God.

This is the issue though. You believe the Bible to be false and I believe it to be true. Your intelligence has nothing to do with this. I have also been involved with scriptures, Church, education, study, for 20 years - over that now infact. There are also many intelligence and great minds who have become religious including Christianity. Are you able to prove the Bible incorrect using the intelligence you claim to have? Let's see it. If not, then how can you call it stupid?

kev_stevens67

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

It's not about individual people but science, They put science above their religion because they believed science was the truth regardless of what their religion told them, Charles Darwin was also religious before he set of on the HMS Beagle but what he discovered convinced him that what religion had taught him was false and he made a choice to not only continue his research but to publish a comprehensive book which contradicted the Bible and Christianity. The people you mentioned didn't learn what they did through religious scripture.

FrozenLiquid

Actually, Darwin and Galileo aside, none of the above mentioned put science above religion.

I've stated this earlier, but the cIassical way of learning was this:

Trivium: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric.

Quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy

Then after studying the quadrivium at university, students would learn the two biggest subjects: philosophy and theology.

So no, science wasn't put at the top. As you can see, philosophy and theology were considered the greatest forms of knowledge.

The reason Darwin lost his faith was because he was born in a turbulent period of thought. He was also a Unitarian, which is a flawed Christian belief easy to pick apart.

According to all credible accounts at the point of his death Darwin was an Agnostic or likely even an Athesit although he never called himself one due to fear of upsetting people, Although he began questioning his religious beliefs during his study of evolution it was not until the death of his daughter he completely turned away from any scriptual religion. Not that it is really relevent to the discussion so i'll get back on topic.

All the people you listed and pretty much all scientists and thinkers throughout history who have come out with ideas that didn't fit with christian or religious superstitions of the day were violently opposed and forced to either retract their claims under threat of punishment (As Galileo experienced) or oppose the very religious institutions they believed in. Copernicus was also violently opposed for his discovery that the earth wasn't the centre of the solar system and that it revolved around the sun. Whats amazing isn't the fact that devoutly religious men made such incredible scientific discoveries but that they made them in spite of religion and their beliefs.

Science hasn't always been considered the pinnacle of knowledge and discovery but that was likely due to the influence of religion. The study of many forms of science were forbidden by a succession Popes throughout history.

[QUOTE="tocool340"]What Atheist would think religion and evolution can't co-exist. I would think they would understand the possibility that some God created life to develop this way....Celldrax

I know I'm stating the obvious......but you do know the whole point of being atheist is not believing in ANY sort of divine being.

That's exactly the point, though.

All four gospels told us of these crazy things, and they were written simply because they were told to report these crazy things. It's even written right there in the Bible that the people who saw Jesus did not believe what he was saying or doing. Only twelve men believed, and wrote down what they saw.

It's very difficult to summarize why I believe in a book that says all these things happened. There's just too much to talk about.

After 15 hundred billion years in heaven, how happy will I be?

That's hard to answer, because Heaven has no concept of time. It doesn't exist in space-time like Earth does.

See, Christians can be rational too :P

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

The bible was written by man and re-written many times. All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one you quoted.

tenaka2

You've proposed two things here, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

The Bible was written many times. What are you trying to allude to?

AND

All cultures and religions have the same lines as the one I quoted. Can you provide the sources? Because I'm very unsure all cultures and religions request that they put Yahweh (yes, one particular God) above all else, in order than the second commandment is followed correctly.

While you're here, I think we had another discussion which was left unresolved. Or was it resolved? :P

I don't mean the exact words in the exact order. Its just common sense to be nice to your neighbour, and all religions require followers to love there gods.

I said the bible had been re-written many times. What faith are you again? Catholic?

Not meaning the exact words in the exact order is not the same as what Jesus said. Those two commandments Jesus said are exactly the same as the ten commandments given to Moses (one of them being 'There shall be no other gods before me'). The ten commandments would again be exactly the same as the many laws of Moses.

There are not many other religions that require followers to love their Gods. If I didn't tell you now, you might've said Islam requires you to love God. It doesn't require you to love God, it requires you to submit to God. The essences of both acts are two different things. The only thing that's really in common with Christianity and other religions is sacrifice.

To be fair, the Bible hasn't been rewritten many times, not to the point of obscurity anyway. If you pick up the Vulgate (a 4th century Latin translation of the Bible), most of the modern translations are still intact. The reason people seem to discuss issues regarding how the Bible is interpreted is not from mistranslations, but from not reading it properly. I've been to a Protestant bible study cIass and it's just a matter of reading something and almost making up your own interpretation of some obtuse quote. Catholics (Yes, I'm Catholic), cannot pick up the Bible and interpret it at their own will. Not many people know how to read the Bible. There are still people that think it's one big book.

[QUOTE="Riverwolf007"]

well you should not bother since nothing will change anyway but all i am saying is the catholic doctrine is in direct oppostion with the bible and it is easily proven.

seriously there is not another force on earth as evil as the catholic church.

second place would probably be the protestants though so it's really no biggie.

FrozenLiquid

...there's not another force as evil as the Catholic Church? The same Church that protected western civilization from barbarians after the Roman Empire? The same Church that defended its people from Muslim invasion? The same Church that spoke out against the holocaust? The same Church that helped bring down the fall of Communism? The same Church that is currently the most charitable organization in the world?

I'm not sure if those things are evil.

The second thing you've said confuses me. You provided all these Protestant arguments against Catholicism, yet you talk as if you're not a Protestant? Unless you're saying you are the second biggest evil in the world? I'm not sure what you're trying to say :?

You don't really want to go tit-for-tat over the good and bad things the Catholic Church has done do you? You realise half the things you listed have a flip side that is equally evil (By todays standards atleast) then they were good, If not more evil (Likely more evil...Actually more evil).

All the people you listed and pretty much all scientists and thinkers throughout history who have come out with ideas that didn't fit with christian or religious superstitions of the day were violently opposed and forced to either retract their claims under threat of punishment (As Galileo experienced) or oppose the very religious institutions they believed in. Copernicus was also violently opposed for his discovery that the earth wasn't the centre of the solar system and that it revolved around the sun. Whats amazing isn't the fact that devoutly religious men made such incredible scientific discoveries but that they made them in spite of religion and their beliefs.

Science hasn't always been considered the pinnacle of knowledge and discovery but that was likely due to the influence of religion. The study of many forms of science were forbidden by a succession Popes throughout history.

mattisgod01

You're actually half correct. All the people I've listed came out with ideas that didn't fit with scientific thought. That's the point of a scientific discovery. I doubt you're rushing to back up Stephen Wolfram's crazy new hypothesis of the universe, even though you're probably a non-Christian.

Most of the greatest minds at the time were also Christian, due to Christianity providing all forms of education. Christian thinkers were very well versed in the Ptolemaic model of the universe, and yes, they understood it also as a model for their faith at the time. Religious superstition was not the stuff of Christian intellectuals, it was the stuff of lower cIass peasants. In the same manner than Isaac Newton proposed Newtonian physics based on his deist philosophy, scientists tried to prove Catholic theological doctrine through language, math and astronomy. They would go onto discover great things.

Copernicus wasn't initially opposed. In fact, he was pushed to discover more by Jesuit astronomers. Galileo too was asked to further his studies. In fact, so radical was his propositions, he was protected by the Pope from other scientists at the time who thought he was too radical. It was when Galileo began pushing his findings on theological grounds and refusing to back down (he was given a chance or two), that the whole catastrophe happened. Nor was it a good time for Galileo to be questioning the Church — it already had its hands full with the Reformation, which is what actually triggered off the list of prohibited literature.

So no, the idea that religious people made discoveries in spite of their religious belief was absurd. The Western Church has been the trumpet boy for post-Ancient Greek philosophy, and it's strange not even scientists these days get it, but the natural sciences are a branch of philosophy. It would be absurd for the Catholic Church to ignore it. And it hasn't. Whatever irreligious and secular people say, the Church continued with science, in the same way it continued with ethics, in the same way it continued theology, because it is a lover of all philosophy.

As a person who knows his Catholicism inside-out, and as an enthusiastic amateur astronomer, I've grown to love both more without any compromises. It's a little weird when people try to tell me I'm not suppose to do both. Either I'm suppose to be a superstitious Catholic, or a humanist amateur astronomer. Then again, the people that tell me that don't really care for either :?

You don't really want to go tit-for-tat over the good and bad things the Catholic Church has done do you? You realise half the things you listed have a flip side that is equally evil (By todays standards atleast) then they were good, If not more evil (Likely more evil...Actually more evil).

mattisgod01

Of course I'll defend it. There's no such thing as today's standard, yesterday's standard. That's moral relativism, which is absurd.

Just to give you a head start, the idea that 'on the flip side, that is evil', is philosophically absurd. You're equating 'unevillness' with 'being nice'. To have moral goodness, one has to act justly.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

No one's contradicting anyone. I'm not sure if the word contradict is the right word to use here.

theSteeeeels

Of course I'll defend it. There's no such thing as today's standard, yesterday's standard. That's moral relativism, which is absurd.

Just to give you a head start, the idea that 'on the flip side, that is evil', is philosophically absurd. You're equating 'unevillness' with 'being nice'. To have moral goodness, one has to act justly.FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Of course I'll defend it. There's no such thing as today's standard, yesterday's standard. That's moral relativism, which is absurd.

Just to give you a head start, the idea that 'on the flip side, that is evil', is philosophically absurd. You're equating 'unevillness' with 'being nice'. To have moral goodness, one has to act justly.theSteeeeels

Yes, there is a moral code, set in stone.

If one thousand years ago, people played football with live chickens because they did not know any better, they would be committing a moral evil, but they would not be judged for it. To sin aka to knowingly commit evil, you need to know what you're doing is wrong. So you don't even need to make a silly example, you could've just said what if a toddler shot his father. Yes, of course it's wrong, and therefore an evil, but he certainly won't be judged for it because he didn't know any better.

And, our bodies aremade up of the same stuff that makes up air and grass. The reason that air is air, grass is grass, and humans are humans is because the stuff that makes up everything in the universe is composed differently.

Trying to make silly examples and trying to attack Christianity doesn't help, man.

Because its faith based? I don't have a problem with people believing in that type of stuff myself. It's when they force it on others as if its 100% fact that I have a problem. When they attack others that are different from them such as homosexuals or people from different religions or cultures. They say God don't like ugly, so what makes them think its ok to attack other people as if its what God wanted?...

tocool340

Recently I have stopped caring about the little things which people use to disprove the existance of God, ie evolution. After recently watching a few things about the size of the universe and reading A Brief History of Time I have begun to realise how insanely small we actually are. I don't believe in the Creationist theory, but I do believe in God. The web of galaxies of which we are a part of is absolutely mind boggling and they don't even compare to the size of the millions quasars at what is believed to be the edge of the current universe. I am hoping/believe that there is some higher power out therechaoscougar1

I am Sooo with you there :)

also, just a personal, curious question to a christian. after 15 hundred billion years in heaven, how happy will you still be? sounds pretty terryfying to me.

theSteeeeels

Yes, there is a moral code, set in stone.

If one thousand years ago, people played football with live chickens because they did not know any better, they would be committing a moral evil, but they would not be judged for it. To sin aka to knowingly commit evil, you need to know what you're doing is wrong. So you don't even need to make a silly example, you could've just said what if a toddler shot his father. Yes, of course it's wrong, and therefore an evil, but he certainly won't be judged for it because he didn't know any better.

And, our bodies aremade up of the same stuff that makes up air and grass. The reason that air is air, grass is grass, and humans are humans is because the stuff that makes up everything in the universe is composed differently.

Trying to make silly examples and trying to attack Christianity doesn't help, man.

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Yes, there is a moral code, set in stone.

If one thousand years ago, people played football with live chickens because they did not know any better, they would be committing a moral evil, but they would not be judged for it. To sin aka to knowingly commit evil, you need to know what you're doing is wrong. So you don't even need to make a silly example, you could've just said what if a toddler shot his father. Yes, of course it's wrong, and therefore an evil, but he certainly won't be judged for it because he didn't know any better.

And, our bodies aremade up of the same stuff that makes up air and grass. The reason that air is air, grass is grass, and humans are humans is because the stuff that makes up everything in the universe is composed differently.

Trying to make silly examples and trying to attack Christianity doesn't help, man.

theSteeeeels

What is murder? It's an intentional act, yes? A willingness to take something away from someone. A child killing a father did not willingly take away life from his father. He probably didn't know any better.

For something to be set in stone, it has to be the same now as it will be forever. Someone willingly killing someone else maliciously will always be committing a sin, now, and forever. Someone who did not know his/her killing was murder (however unlikely) will not be committing a sin, now, and forever. That is the definition of setting in stone, something that never changes.

Grass doesn't feel pain. The great thing about Catholicism is that we use science and philosophy to understand why Jesus said the things he said. No, grass does not feel pain, because it is not sentient (it does not have the capacity to be self-aware). It won't happen in 1000 years time. Neither would we be committing an immoral evil, because there's nothing to be said in particular and causing pain to grass. The reason there's nothing said about that is because the whole idea is entirely absurd. Silly. Whatever other word you want to use.

Steeeeels, you've been arguing for the longest time that Christianity is not rational. And yet, you're making the most irrational statements which I find insulting because I love rationality.

Shouldn't I, the Christian, be the one who is completely ignorant of science, philosphy, and truth? Shouldn't I be the one making the silly claims, examples and remarks? Why am I making the more reasonable ones?

[QUOTE="tocool340"]

Because its faith based? I don't have a problem with people believing in that type of stuff myself. It's when they force it on others as if its 100% fact that I have a problem. When they attack others that are different from them such as homosexuals or people from different religions or cultures. They say God don't like ugly, so what makes them think its ok to attack other people as if its what God wanted?...

theSteeeeels

[QUOTE="theSteeeeels"] also, just a personal, curious question to a christian. after 15 hundred billion years in heaven, how happy will you still be? sounds pretty terryfying to me.

tocool340

Wow, you're almost there. That was pretty well done for a non-Christian.

Yes, there's 'formatting' of souls. That's called Purgatory, where, after one dies, and you're given mercy by God to be forgiven for all your sins, you're cleansed of all the stains you've put on your soul. The thing is, the soul is free from the constraints of the body. The reason we continuously do bad things right now is because we're limited by our bodies and time. When our souls drift off to heaven, where there's no physicality or time, we always know the right thing to do, and we always want to do the right thing, because that is the grace God gives us in Heaven.

What is murder? It's an intentional act, yes? A willingness to take something away from someone. A child killing a father did not willingly take away life from his father. He probably didn't know any better.

For something to be set in stone, it has to be the same now as it will be forever. Someone willingly killing someone else maliciously will always be committing a sin, now, and forever. Someone who did not know his/her killing was murder (however unlikely) will not be committing a sin, now, and forever. That is the definition of setting in stone, something that never changes.

Grass doesn't feel pain. The great thing about Catholicism is that we use science and philosophy to understand why Jesus said the things he said. No, grass does not feel pain, because it is not sentient (it does not have the capacity to be self-aware). It won't happen in 1000 years time. Neither would we be committing an immoral evil, because there's nothing to be said in particular and causing pain to grass. The reason there's nothing said about that is because the whole idea is entirely absurd. Silly. Whatever other word you want to use.

Steeeeels, you've been arguing for the longest time that Christianity is not rational. And yet, you're making the most irrational statements which I find insulting because I love rationality.

Shouldn't I, the Christian, be the one who is completely ignorant of science, philosphy, and truth? Shouldn't I be the one making the silly claims, examples and remarks? Why am I making the more reasonable ones?

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="tocool340"]

[QUOTE="theSteeeeels"] also, just a personal, curious question to a christian. after 15 hundred billion years in heaven, how happy will you still be? sounds pretty terryfying to me.

FrozenLiquid

Wow, you're almost there. That was pretty well done for a non-Christian.

Yes, there's 'formatting' of souls. That's called Purgatory, where, after one dies, and you're given mercy by God to be forgiven for all your sins, you're cleansed of all the stains you've put on your soul. The thing is, the soul is free from the constraints of the body. The reason we continuously do bad things right now is because we're limited by our bodies and time. When our souls drift off to heaven, where there's no physicality or time, we always know the right thing to do, and we always want to do the right thing, because that is the grace God gives us in Heaven.