rock vs rap..

[QUOTE="MattUD1"]Of course, but it's not a crappy poem if there is no music to it. But (to me) music doesn't have to be a "musical instrument", guitar, piano, keyboard, etc. Music can include your way of speech. How you say something can be musical, to anyone. If you can nail how it sounds, it can be better than any musical piece with "musical instruments".
quiglythegreat

Music can be immensly important to poetry because it sets the mood and the emotions of the entire work become far more complicated.
quiglythegreat

Of course.  But that doesn't mean you can't extract the two from each other and evaluate them individually, which is precisely what you must do if you're debating about the music itself. 

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]Music can be immensly important to poetry because it sets the mood and the emotions of the entire work become far more complicated.
pianist

Of course. But that doesn't mean you can't extract the two from each other and evaluate them individually, which is precisely what you must do if you're debating about the music itself.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="MattUD1"]Of course, but it's not a crappy poem if there is no music to it. But (to me) music doesn't have to be a "musical instrument", guitar, piano, keyboard, etc. Music can include your way of speech. How you say something can be musical, to anyone. If you can nail how it sounds, it can be better than any musical piece with "musical instruments".
MattUD1

Well anyone can compare something if they want to:P

I see what you mean when you're talking about the aspects of the music but when I say that I mean how the music is produced differntly and has an overall different sound and feel. And also the fact that the "good" rap has a lot of focus on the rappers flow and all that stuff. It just doesn't seem right to me to compare those things. Guess I should have explained what I meant from the beginning. Well that's my opinion in a nut shell.

 

supermetroidfan

All performances are judged by how natural they sound (that's what is referred to as flow in rap). You can tell when a student is playing a clas sical piece or when an established virtuoso is playing it, because even if both are hitting all the right notes, the virtuoso will almost certainly be doing it in a way that is more pleasing to the ear. But performance and compositional analysis aren't really the same subject. Any rap song, rock song, clas sical song, or whatever can be written down and analyzed on paper. You can't write down performances. ;)

The only real reason that i 'hate' rap is because theres no true skill behind rhyming words, with a beat in the background. I mean in rock theres alot of skill needed to play a guitar, a bass or drums. I mean being a guitar player my self it took me a good three years to be good enough to actually want to show people. If I really wanted to I could probably go out somwhere tommorow and rap. Again this is just my opinion.... be niceferret837

I'm going to be nice :). Your opinion is clearly biased. You could indeed go out tomorrow and "rap" or rhyme, but that does not make it good. You're right that anyone can rhyme, but if that rhyme is lame, then they have no skill when it comes to rhyming. I could pick up a guitar tomorrow and play. That doesn't mean it's going to sound good. It would take practice, just like a hip hop artist practices his rhymes etc. The beat also can take skill (depending on the artist and producer, some are just completely lame, I will agree.) But producers like Just Blaze put in so much time and they're so complex that not just anyone could make it. I'm not bashing rock or saying rap is better by the way!

[QUOTE="pianist"]

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]Music can be immensly important to poetry because it sets the mood and the emotions of the entire work become far more complicated.
quiglythegreat

Of course. But that doesn't mean you can't extract the two from each other and evaluate them individually, which is precisely what you must do if you're debating about the music itself.

Interesting. I'm not sure I agree. Arguing that modern music is a superior form of entertainment because it is relevant now is not convincing, unless you're referring only to the present day. Whether or not the music that is being written now will have the longevity of clas sical music is something that remains to be seen. The reason clas sical music is still played at all in modern society is that it survives on the basis of sound. It does not rely on a textual message to ignite the emotions of the listener. More often than not, the North American listener is not fluent in the languages used in clas sical music, or there are simply no lyrics.

Rap and rock are heavily dependent on their lyrics and their practical use in dance. You could make the argument that they are more easily accessible as entertainment, but calling them a superior art form even in the face of this limitation would be a tough sell. Even in the past few decades, plenty of modern music that was extremely popular when it was written has faded away into obscurity. You can't say the same about names like Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach. Even people who know nothing about clas sical music have probably heard one of those names, and these guys have been dead far longer than popular rock and rap music has been in existence.

[QUOTE="ak618"]

DEJA VU!!! THIS IS LIKE EVERY THREAD IN OT!

I mean dammit I've provided people so many links and insightful opinions and you guys stay the same. I even had the same argument with pianist which I'm not gonna go after again. All I have to say is that, again, both artists respectively have their good and bad artists, songs, and albums. Some are terrible. Some are incredible. It has nothing to do with the grade of music. And believe that, coming from a musician and music lover.

pianist

Specifically mentioning me isn't a very good way to avoid another debate.

People aren't arguing about the merits of the musicians, but about the merits of the music itself. The reason they 'stay the same' is that you are incorrect in your belief that it is impossible to compare genres, and that if you appreciate proficient rock music, you should also be able to appreciate proficient rap music. Not everyone can put their finger on why they despise certain music, but that won't stop them from despising the genre. If they had a musical vocabulary they could tell you why.

Your own arguments are not especially compelling, usually because you're trying to argue impossible positions, like that rap and rock are incomparable.

it's not that they're incomparable, I just think it's very unnecessary. People tend to make generalizations and that's what I really don't like. when you pin rock against rap, your pinning red hot chili peppers, beastie boys, and rage against the machine against themselves, first of all. It can be a very thin line. For a lot of people a white guy or a distorted electric guitar makes it "rock". What defines "rap" is only that it has an MC rapping on the track. The music in the background can be rock. Hence making it some sort of fusion. one could argue that rage against the machine is rock, or rap. this is what makes it difficult to compare the two because rap isn't really a genre. it's just rap plus whatever's the background music. Hip Hop is more of a genre because its four elements are graffiti, breakdancing, DJing, and MCing. Music connected to this culture can be labeled hip hop. Again though, Rage Against the Machine can be labeled hip hop because they are very faithful and connected to the culture. Although, they're only one example, they explain why it's so difficult to compare two genres. Where do you draw the line. Again, most people would draw the line at the caucasiality of the artist and/or how distorted their guitars are. They then disregard everything made before 1996, that is socially conscious but not "Where is the Love?", and/or that wasn't on the top 40, and your left with rap as of today. It's just a bunch of jigaboos screamin about cash, drugs, hoes, gats, hoes, and cash. Which is why I don't like comparing the two. 

Wow,OT hasn't changed at all:lol:

it's not that they're incomparable, I just think it's very unnecessary. People tend to make generalizations and that's what I really don't like. when you pin rock against rap, your pinning red hot chili peppers, beastie boys, and rage against the machine against themselves, first of all. It can be a very thin line. For a lot of people a white guy or a distorted electric guitar makes it "rock". What defines "rap" is only that it has an MC rapping on the track. The music in the background can be rock. Hence making it some sort of fusion. one could argue that rage against the machine is rock, or rap. this is what makes it difficult to compare the two because rap isn't really a genre. it's just rap plus whatever's the background music. Hip Hop is more of a genre because its four elements are graffiti, breakdancing, DJing, and MCing. Music connected to this culture can be labeled hip hop. Again though, Rage Against the Machine can be labeled hip hop because they are very faithful and connected to the culture. Although, they're only one example, they explain why it's so difficult to compare two genres. Where do you draw the line. Again, most people would draw the line at the caucasiality of the artist and/or how distorted their guitars are. They then disregard everything made before 1996, that is socially conscious but not "Where is the Love?", and/or that wasn't on the top 40, and your left with rap as of today. It's just a bunch of jigaboos screamin about cash, drugs, hoes, gats, hoes, and cash. Which is why I don't like comparing the two.

ak618

I agree with most of what you say - there is a great deal of 'racial profiling' in music discussion, particularly from the ill-informed, and there isn't much point in setting out to purposely ridicule a genre (as is usually the case in these threads). Just so long as you're not trying to argue that there is no basis for musical comparison between the two genres, or that a person who does not appreciate a specific genre is a snob, we'll get along just fine.

The two genres are entirely too broad to compare.

... but rap.  Keeping it real is a habit.

The two genres are entirely too broad to compare.

... but rap. Keeping it real is a habit.

Balimi

No.  The music within either genre is different enough from the music in the other genre to warrant a comparison.  Were this not true, people would not refer to them with individual genre titles.  They'd just be called "music." 

[QUOTE="ak618"]

it's not that they're incomparable, I just think it's very unnecessary. People tend to make generalizations and that's what I really don't like. when you pin rock against rap, your pinning red hot chili peppers, beastie boys, and rage against the machine against themselves, first of all. It can be a very thin line. For a lot of people a white guy or a distorted electric guitar makes it "rock". What defines "rap" is only that it has an MC rapping on the track. The music in the background can be rock. Hence making it some sort of fusion. one could argue that rage against the machine is rock, or rap. this is what makes it difficult to compare the two because rap isn't really a genre. it's just rap plus whatever's the background music. Hip Hop is more of a genre because its four elements are graffiti, breakdancing, DJing, and MCing. Music connected to this culture can be labeled hip hop. Again though, Rage Against the Machine can be labeled hip hop because they are very faithful and connected to the culture. Although, they're only one example, they explain why it's so difficult to compare two genres. Where do you draw the line. Again, most people would draw the line at the caucasiality of the artist and/or how distorted their guitars are. They then disregard everything made before 1996, that is socially conscious but not "Where is the Love?", and/or that wasn't on the top 40, and your left with rap as of today. It's just a bunch of jigaboos screamin about cash, drugs, hoes, gats, hoes, and cash. Which is why I don't like comparing the two.

pianist

I agree with most of what you say - there is a great deal of 'racial' profiling in music discussion, particularly from the ill-informed, and there isn't much point in setting out to purposely ridicule a genre (as is usually the case in creating these threads). Just so long as you're not trying to argue that there is no basis for musical comparison between the two genres, or that a person who does not appreciate a specific genre is a snob, we'll get along just fine.

Cool. oh and I would be a hypocrite if I said that you were a snob if you didn't like a genre. Because I, for the most part don't like much metal.

[QUOTE="Def_Jef88"]oh boy, another topic full of idiots going "u cant spel crap without rap LOLOL" ....MattUD1

The two genres are entirely too broad to compare.Balimi

Everyone constantly compares music...whether it be genres, subgenres or bands.  How else does one decide what they want to listen to and what appeals to them?

[QUOTE="Balimi"]

The two genres are entirely too broad to compare.

... but rap. Keeping it real is a habit.

pianist

No. The music within either genre is different enough from the music in the other genre to warrant a comparison. Were this not true, people would not refer to them with individual genre titles. They'd just be called "music."

but again, a genre is just a certain type of music. Comparing two genres is like saying "what tastes better, sweet foods or spicy foods?" As ridiculous as that sounds, I usually like spicy foods better, but I still have a yearning for sweet foods a lot of times. Just like rap, rock, jazz, blues, classical, pop, rnb/soul, funk, etc. But something can be sweet and spicy at the same time, like KFC's sweet 'n' spicy wings, which are mad good.

In conclusion, music is just a really big KFC, where most of the product goes through excessive processing and watering down nowadays.

[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="Balimi"]

The two genres are entirely too broad to compare.

... but rap. Keeping it real is a habit.

ak618

No. The music within either genre is different enough from the music in the other genre to warrant a comparison. Were this not true, people would not refer to them with individual genre titles. They'd just be called "music."

but again, a genre is just a certain type of music. Comparing two genres is like saying "what tastes better, sweet foods or spicy foods?" As ridiculous as that sounds, I usually like spicy foods better, but I still have a yearning for sweet foods a lot of times. Just like rap, rock, jazz, blues, classical, pop, rnb/soul, funk, etc. But something can be sweet and spicy at the same time, like KFC's sweet 'n' spicy wings, which are mad good.

In conclusion, music is just a really big KFC, where most of the product goes through excessive processing and watering down nowadays.

:lol:

A pretty creative analogy, to be sure. But I'm referring to objective comparison of the music in these genres. That has nothing to do with taste. I can take a piece of rap music and a piece of rock music and tell you how they differ. I can also tell you which is a more sophisticated piece of writing, and which one makes use of the greatest variety of musical devices. To a certain extent, I can even tell you which one makes better use of its musical materials to create a particular emotional effect. What I can't tell you is what effect the music will have on you, or whether or not you like it.

I don't think a rock vs. rap thread is pointless in theory. It's only pointless here because there aren't enough people who can talk about it in a meaningful, informed way.

Anyways, I'm off for the night. I'm sure by the time I return this thread will have ballooned into a massive flame war filled with generic one-liners proclaiming the mediocrity of one genre or the other...

I think its more like comparing cities or towns than flavors.  Each has an endless number of artists, districts, and streets.  The two cities even connect.  Cities have grand, bland, and gritty images and thousands of exeptions to it.  Obviously most people will have a preference, especially if they grew up in one, but in the end what does it matter?

[QUOTE="ferret837"] It seems like Rock is dieing JustPlainLucas

So is rap. 

you think so?

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

[QUOTE="ferret837"] It seems like Rock is dieing petrnorth18

So is rap.

you think so?

rap and rock are both in terrible states right now. Underground rap is still fairly good, but there's not that much classic material coming out. With rock, I can't even really find anything underground that i like, but there is a little bit of good mainstream stuff like Red Hot Chili Peppers. 

imo, rap can better than rock if it can be performed right. Nas, Gangstarr, Ludacris (Back For The First Time and Word of Mouf), Haystak....Vs. Paul Wall, Unk, Jibbs, Richboy, 50 Cent, etc

i like rock too though, just not as much as hip hop.

I prefer rock over rap. Sure rap has talent but usually all I see on t.v is bling bling, girls and cars and such, oh yeah, theres rap thats not about that but its still not my style and I will not associate with it. Period. Metal and rock will always be for me.

Rock VS Rap? are you kidding me? what kind of question is that? thats like asking whats better, Peanut Butter? or Jelly? P-r-e-y

we have threads like this all the time and the same genre wins each time. industrial. dissonantblack

:oNot in my world. What you smoking?:P

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]we have threads like this all the time and the same genre wins each time. industrial. supermetroidfan

:oNot in my world. What you smoking?:P

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]we have threads like this all the time and the same genre wins each time. industrial. supermetroidfan

:oNot in my world. What you smoking?:P

nothing 

[QUOTE="supermetroidfan"]

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]we have threads like this all the time and the same genre wins each time. industrial. dissonantblack

:oNot in my world. What you smoking?:P

nothing 

:oWell someone has to be smoking something. Must be me then:|

They are both good, you all win.

But lose to me.

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

[QUOTE="ferret837"] It seems like Rock is dieing petrnorth18

So is rap. 

you think so?

As I know it, yes.  MIMS, Jim Jones, whoever the hell does that Bubble Yum song.... People like that are destroying rap.  The mainstream is complete trash.  No one cares about intellectual rap on the air waves anymore.  The radio is dead to me.  If I didn't have my iPod loaded with k-Os, Consequence, Busta Rhymes, Tribe Called Quest, Common, Kanye West, Dr. Dre, old-school Snoop Dogg, De La Soul, Bone Thugs n Harmony, Wu-Tang, etc., etc., etc., in my car, I'd think I'd just go crazy.  I guess, though, rap is dying in Colorado faster because we have two really crappy radio stations that play rap and hip hop. 

I also think the audience is degenerating because they'd rather listen to club songs with catchy beats and choruses that have BS lyrics rather than listen to songs that have rhyming you actually have to listen to catch everything that's being said.  It seems like the more complex a song is, the less people will listen to it, because it takes too much brain power to appreciate it.  They just want to nod their heads to the beat like bobbleheads.  Also, rap has been sick for at least a decade.  The incessant boasting of women, cars, money and jewelry NEEDS to stop!  I know most rappers only rap about what they know, but then these rappers need to put down the mic for a minute and read a book.

*kills every one on this thread that likes rap*

Ummmm...... I guess ROCK!!!! wins

yesssssssssssss

xzemnes567

*kills every one on this thread that likes rap*

Ummmm...... I guess ROCK!!!! wins

yesssssssssssss

xzemnes567

Why does it bother you if someone likes rap?  To each his own...

Both mainstream rap and rock are pretty low quality these days. At their primes though, I think they are pretty equal, however, Rock does include the bands own instruments, which can make a song better and makes the genre harder to master. My vote goes to Rock.arab_prince

But hey, that's just my opinion.

Anyways, I chose rock (well, really I like metal more, but whatever). I think it takes more talent to be a rock/metal musician than a rap artist. 

Rock ftw. You can't spell crap without rap..Denjin_hadouken

Hur hur, how clever, hur hur.

Listen to music, not genres.

I'm just saying rap sucks and

Rock Owns rap

xzemnes567

Nahhhh, not really. 

Rock ftw. You can't spell crap without rap..Denjin_hadouken

That's already getting old. If you like rock then listen to rock and ignore rap.