Same Sex Marriage Controversial

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PannicAtack

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#101 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r

What exactly is the gay agenda?"

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PerfectCircles

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#102 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Except for in other countries where its not :|
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LikeHaterade

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#103 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r

The gays are coming for you...

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PannicAtack

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#104 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts
[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]I'm glad Prop 8 is on the road to being repealed. I've got a friend who got married during the brief window between when gay marriage was legalized an Prop 8 passed.Lockedge
Aye. I'm hoping it does well, either in the 9th circuit or the Supreme Court. I wouldn't mind the US's marriage laws revamped in one fell swoop, but if it's just California, I'm totally good with that too. I like how NOM is up in arms about "7 million Californians having their will overturned". Right, because the other 48% of California didn't matter either? If there was a 1 vote difference separating both sides, population would be a non-issue as it's pretty indecisive either way. Hell, in cases as serious as this where altering the constitution is involved, there should at least be a 55% or 60% mark that propositions need to hit in order to show a clear sign of support. 52%? That's hardly over half and not enough to bring up a complaint involving the number of people involved. Complaining of activist judging ismore appropriate(even if this case doesn't involve it). That's all my opinion though.

Nevermind that overturning the other branches if what they're doing is wrong or unconstitutional is the judicial branch's job.
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PerfectCircles

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#105 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

PannicAtack

What exactly is the gay agenda?"

You know evil things like equal rights and such.
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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#106 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Please tell me you're joking :roll:
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LZ71

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#107 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Excuse me while I bash my head into my desk so I can try to forget that you actually said that.
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Darkainious

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#108 Darkainious
Member since 2009 • 558 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkainious"]

[QUOTE="PerfectCircles"] The bible also says not to eat shellfish because it is an abomination, yet I don't see Christians protesting Red Lobster, yay for picking and choosing what to believe. Also I don't see what the bible has to do with U.S law. theone86

It has almost nothing to do with US law. That is not the point. If you are christian, you might want to change US law because of what the bible says.

Or you might want to respect that little thing we have called freedom of religion and seperation of church and state, you know, the one that was created in part because of the institutional discrimination certain Christian sects were responding to by coming to this continent from Europe in the first place.

wow. That is not what this is about. Do you think a voter is going to worry about seperation of church and state? Or are they going to vote against what they are morally opposed to?
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super_mario_128

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#109 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

PannicAtack

What exactly is the gay agenda?"

Spreading the gay through the country's water supply.

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THE_DRUGGIE

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#110 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25110 Posts

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

super_mario_128

What exactly is the gay agenda?"

Spreading "the gay through the country's water supply.

Ha, I knew my water tasted fabulous today!

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PeaceChild90

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#111 PeaceChild90
Member since 2009 • 781 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r

Jesus. Just come out of the closet already.

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T_P_O

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#112 T_P_O
Member since 2008 • 5388 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Tell me the definition of marriage and then we'll decide if it's an oxymoron. Otherwise, no dice.
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Mr_Cumberdale

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#113 Mr_Cumberdale
Member since 2004 • 10189 Posts
I'm against it. Not disclosing my reasons.
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Lockedge

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#114 Lockedge
Member since 2002 • 16765 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Hrm. I have a gay friend who has an agenda on his cabinet. last time I read it, it said something about him going biking in Algonquin park, dropping in on specific Bluesfest dates, and listed a daily workout routine. So, the gay agenda is to get outdoors for some fun, to listen to music, and to stay fit? What's so wrong about that? Meanwhile, Christian Church groups are getting their money together and opposing same sex marriage and even the civil unions they claim to not be opposed to, whenever bills/legislation/etc. can be passed. So, deception would be the Christian agenda? Far from it. I have many friends of the Christian variety who are very nice, upfront people. So what did we learn here? Agendas....not to read much into them because it's likely just a bunch of people writing down their hopes for the future without seriously acting upon them.
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Darkainious

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#115 Darkainious
Member since 2009 • 558 Posts

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Lol this is painful even for me.
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PannicAtack

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#116 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

super_mario_128

What exactly is the gay agenda?"

Spreading "the gay through the country's water supply.

Incidentally, there was a terrible webcomic written by a flaming homophobe, in which the main character (who is literally an insert of the author) put a gay vaccine" in the water supply.
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PerfectCircles

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#117 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

PeaceChild90

Jesus. Just come out of the closet already.

You know I acted very similar to that when I was in the closet back in my early teens :P
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Lockedge

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#118 Lockedge
Member since 2002 • 16765 Posts
[QUOTE="Lockedge"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"]I'm glad Prop 8 is on the road to being repealed. I've got a friend who got married during the brief window between when gay marriage was legalized an Prop 8 passed.PannicAtack
Aye. I'm hoping it does well, either in the 9th circuit or the Supreme Court. I wouldn't mind the US's marriage laws revamped in one fell swoop, but if it's just California, I'm totally good with that too. I like how NOM is up in arms about "7 million Californians having their will overturned". Right, because the other 48% of California didn't matter either? If there was a 1 vote difference separating both sides, population would be a non-issue as it's pretty indecisive either way. Hell, in cases as serious as this where altering the constitution is involved, there should at least be a 55% or 60% mark that propositions need to hit in order to show a clear sign of support. 52%? That's hardly over half and not enough to bring up a complaint involving the number of people involved. Complaining of activist judging ismore appropriate(even if this case doesn't involve it). That's all my opinion though.

Nevermind that overturning the other branches if what they're doing is wrong or unconstitutional is the judicial branch's job.

It's almost like they don't know how the legal system works.....which actually would explain why their defense in court was so terrible and hilarious.
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PerfectCircles

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#119 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts
I'm against it. Not disclosing my reasons. Mr_Cumberdale
Thats probably best I've heard us enforcers of the gay agenda are pretty good at shooting down crappy arguments.
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Darkainious

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#120 Darkainious
Member since 2009 • 558 Posts

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it? Is it going to hurt you? What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha? Would you equality people be ok with all that? By opening the door to changing the definition of marriage, people are going to want to do some of this stuff.

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theone86

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#121 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Darkainious"] It has almost nothing to do with US law. That is not the point. If you are christian, you might want to change US law because of what the bible says.

Darkainious

Or you might want to respect that little thing we have called freedom of religion and seperation of church and state, you know, the one that was created in part because of the institutional discrimination certain Christian sects were responding to by coming to this continent from Europe in the first place.

wow. That is not what this is about. Do you think a voter is going to worry about seperation of church and state? Or are they going to vote against what they are morally opposed to?

A. any responsible American should be thinking of the public good before their own personal prejudices.

B. This is not a matter of public opinion as it is unconstitutional to allow public opinion to sway matters of equal protection and rights under law.

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Syk0_k03r

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#122 Syk0_k03r
Member since 2008 • 1147 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Darkainious
Lol this is painful even for me.

truth hurts
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THE_DRUGGIE

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#123 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25110 Posts

What if he wanted to marry his dog?

Darkainious

I'm going to stop you right there. You need consent from both parties for a marriage to be recognized. Dogs cannot give consent.

Why? They are dogs.

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super_mario_128

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#124 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Ha, I knew my water tasted fabulous today!

We do what we can. ;D
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PannicAtack

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#125 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it? Is it going to hurt you? What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha? Would you equality people be ok with all that? By opening the door to changing the definition of marriage, people are going to want to do some of this stuff.

Darkainious

Your polygamy example is flawed, as virtually every instance of polygamy observed in the united states has been legitimately harmful.

Your "marrying a dog" or a "statue of Buddha" example doesn't hold up, either, as neither of those have legal standing or the ability to sign a marriage contract.

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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#126 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkainious"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Lol this is painful even for me.

truth hurts

Man that was such a great comeback... :lol:
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theone86

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#127 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it? Is it going to hurt you? What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha? Would you equality people be ok with all that? By opening the door to changing the definition of marriage, people are going to want to do some of this stuff.

Darkainious

I would be fine with any of those scenarios. The only place where I think the state should have any responsibility is with minors who are not mature enough to make that decision.

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Lockedge

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#128 Lockedge
Member since 2002 • 16765 Posts
[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Darkainious"] It has almost nothing to do with US law. That is not the point. If you are christian, you might want to change US law because of what the bible says.

Darkainious

Or you might want to respect that little thing we have called freedom of religion and seperation of church and state, you know, the one that was created in part because of the institutional discrimination certain Christian sects were responding to by coming to this continent from Europe in the first place.

wow. That is not what this is about. Do you think a voter is going to worry about seperation of church and state? Or are they going to vote against what they are morally opposed to?

I'm going to say Darkainious has a point here. People don't care what's legal or not, they likely have no idea about 1/128th of the laws on the books in their state. They don't care about the constitution a whole lot, except making blanket statements that it has to be protected, at least the parts they care about. People aren't often guided by their heads, they use their hearts and their morals.
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PerfectCircles

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#129 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it? Is it going to hurt you? What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha? Would you equality people be ok with all that? By opening the door to changing the definition of marriage, people are going to want to do some of this stuff.

Darkainious
Ah the slippery slope argument, seeings how animals can't give consent I don't think we have to worry about them getting hitched. As for polygamy I personally have no issue with it, you know, since what they do with their lives doesn't affect me in any way what so ever.
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PannicAtack

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#130 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkainious"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r
Lol this is painful even for me.

truth hurts

I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"
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Syk0_k03r

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#131 Syk0_k03r
Member since 2008 • 1147 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

LZ71
Excuse me while I bash my head into my desk so I can try to forget that you actually said that.

wont help, you can't forget the truth
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THE_DRUGGIE

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#132 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25110 Posts

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Ha, I knew my water tasted fabulous today!

super_mario_128

We do what we can. ;D

Did you add a hint of strawberry, you tiger you? :oops:

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LikeHaterade

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#133 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it?Darkainious

There's nothing wrong with it.

Is it going to hurt you?Darkainious

Nope

What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha?Darkainious

Seeing as how dogs and Buddha aren't cognitive, consenting adults, I'd say that isn't an accurate example.

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T_P_O

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#134 T_P_O
Member since 2008 • 5388 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkainious"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r

Lol this is painful even for me.

truth hurts

Fallaciousness hurts even more, even if it is an informal fallacy.

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Syk0_k03r

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#135 Syk0_k03r
Member since 2008 • 1147 Posts
[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="Darkainious"] Lol this is painful even for me.

truth hurts

I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"

the agenda of degrading our society
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PeaceChild90

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#136 PeaceChild90
Member since 2009 • 781 Posts

[QUOTE="PeaceChild90"]

[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

PerfectCircles

Jesus. Just come out of the closet already.

You know I acted very similar to that when I was in the closet back in my early teens :P

:lol: me too!

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T_P_O

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#137 T_P_O
Member since 2008 • 5388 Posts

[QUOTE="super_mario_128"][QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Ha, I knew my water tasted fabulous today!

THE_DRUGGIE

We do what we can. ;D

Did you add a hint of strawberry, you tiger you? :oops:

Do want.
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TroubleMaker411

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#138 TroubleMaker411
Member since 2009 • 1445 Posts

Jeez.

there is way too much hate for gay people on this board.

I mean come on, who cares what 2 men or 2 women do to THEIR lives. They do not affect you in any way. If , in fact, their kids are more likely to commit suicide (sometihng i think is absolute bollocks) then let them. then you bible thimping haters can everyone the "i told you so" treatment. But until then, it's not your business or mine if a gay couple want to get married.

And don't give me that Jesus hates it crap.

According to the bible, you tell me , that gays are an abomination? But in the very same book, you are told NOT to eat meat on a friday or you will go to hell.

Why aint you picketing McDonalds every friday and spreading your word to the millions of CHRISTIANS that chow down on fast food after a night on the beer?

I know why.

Because you do it too, and god forbid that we stop you doing something that YOU like to do.

And because it is something that you like to do, then you choose to ignore those passages.

Twisting the words of religious teachings to suit your will is what people that fly into buildings do to justify what they do.

..

The bottom line, it is not your place to tell a gay couple, men or women, that they can't show their devotion to eachother and get the same legal rights as you have just because they are different. That is no different to telling women or black people that they cant vote.

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PannicAtack

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#139 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

[QUOTE="LZ71"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"]

Absolutely not. Homosexuality should be discouraged

Don't give into the homosexual agenda! If we allow gay marriage, our entire society will be even more degraded. Gay marriage is an oxymoron, everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman

Syk0_k03r

Excuse me while I bash my head into my desk so I can try to forget that you actually said that.

wont help, you can't forget the truth

Here's truth: People in the LGBT community face an astounding amount of hardships specifically due to attitudes like that, ranging from social pressure to discrimination to violence.

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PannicAtack

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#140 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"] truth hurts

I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"

the agenda of degrading our society

That isn't an answer.
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Rougehunter

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#141 Rougehunter
Member since 2004 • 5873 Posts

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"] truth hurtsSyk0_k03r
I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"

the agenda of degrading our society

How are gays degrading our society when you are trying the oppress them and treat them like lesser citizens?

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LikeHaterade

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#142 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts

I'm going to say Darkainious has a point here. People don't care what's legal or not, they likely have no idea about 1/128th of the laws on the books in their state. They don't care about the constitution a whole lot, except making blanket statements that it has to be protected, at least the parts they care about. People aren't often guided by their heads, they use their hearts and their morals. Lockedge

Sure, but it doesn't help his argument against gay marriage. It just shows that a lot of our registered voters don't understand some of the core principals of their country. :P

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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#143 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"] truth hurts

I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"

the agenda of degrading our society

Please tell us how it will degrade society
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PannicAtack

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#144 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts
[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"] I asked you - what is the "homosexual agenda?"

the agenda of degrading our society

Please tell us how it will degrade society

I have far worse things I could mention as far as the degradation of society. LGBT people just want equality and acceptance.
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Darkainious

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#146 Darkainious
Member since 2009 • 558 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkainious"]

Here is something to consider. The main argument I have heard in favor of same sex marriage is equality, and that it won't be hurting me, so why should I care? What if a man wanted to marry two wives? Whats wrong with that if they are all ok with it? Is it going to hurt you? What if he wanted to marry his dog? Or his statue of Buddha? Would you equality people be ok with all that? By opening the door to changing the definition of marriage, people are going to want to do some of this stuff.

PannicAtack

Your polygamy example is flawed, as virtually every instance of polygamy observed in the united states has been legitimately harmful.

Your "marrying a dog" or a "statue of Buddha" example doesn't hold up, either, as neither of those have legal standing or the ability to sign a marriage contract.

If we change marriage then you could get rid of contracts. Just watch. Someone will want to marry an animal. More importantly you say polygamy is harmful, yet you deny same sex marriage is, which by being legalized is a change to the definition of marriage just like legalizing polygamy would be.
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LikeHaterade

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#147 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts

Looks like it's proven then... God hates gaysSyk0_k03r

Yea? Did God tell you that? :lol:

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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#148 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"] wont help, you can't forget the truth

Here's truth: People in the LGBT movement face an astounding amount of hardships specifically due to attitudes like that, ranging from social pressure to discrimination to violence.

Looks like it's proven then... God hates gays

Looks like it's proven then....God hates idiots
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PannicAtack

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#149 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts
[QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Syk0_k03r"] wont help, you can't forget the truth

Here's truth: People in the LGBT movement face an astounding amount of hardships specifically due to attitudes like that, ranging from social pressure to discrimination to violence.

Looks like it's proven then... God hates gays

That's one of the most vile things I've ever seen posted on this forum. I tell you that there's a group that wants nothing more than equality and acceptance, and you act as though they're a bunch of sub-human degenerates.
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PerfectCircles

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#150 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

[QUOTE="PerfectCircles"][QUOTE="PeaceChild90"]

Jesus. Just come out of the closet already.

PeaceChild90

You know I acted very similar to that when I was in the closet back in my early teens :P

:lol: me too!

Well in my defense I had throughly convinced myself that all straight guys were attracted to other guys they just didn't talk about it :P