Since there is no god....

Ok...let's try this then.... a child that is not comforted will not comfort. That is taught as well. There are many peope that do not fell justice has been served...what keeps them from acting out? Certainly not the law that let them down. You are a product of your environment.LJS9502_basic

Seems to be a lot of talk about morality  and good/evil in this thread, and some are claiming they're a good person morally because they don't break the law. Which isn't really necessarily true, but that's not quite the point here. Just remember that good and evil are perspectives, nothing more. ithilgore2006

[QUOTE="Loonie"][QUOTE="doubutsuteki"]

[QUOTE="sheridan891"]no, sorry, but the only reason to waste your time caring about others is because you want to improve their lives. But at the same time, if there is no point to life, why should i care about that?LJS9502_basic

The reason you waste your time caring about others is because you must work together with others in order to be appreciated and loved - the human being is a social being. If you cheat and lie to other people, if you hurt them, steal from them, kill their babies, etc. then you are clearly not going to be accepted. Even without god there are morals - men have always developed morals in other to function together in a society. Although those morals can change as human beings are flexible and can adapt to change. Now, caring about others doesn't have to mean devoting yourself to everyone elses life, and forgetting about your own. If that's what you think it's about, you misunderstand. It's better if people stand up for themselves - and I don't mean standing up for themselves against everyone else ...

gotta go. bbl

By saying it is not always true you are, it seems to me, admitting that it is true most of the time.Loonie

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative? If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other. Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of? Out of money? Just rob someone. As long as you dont get caught, who cares? There's no repercussion. We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing. I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much. There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is. Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end. Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

Just because one doesn't beleive in a god doesn't mean that they don't have a moral code. Just because i'm an Atheist doesn't mean i go around murdering and raping people. You do not need a made up all mighty being to know right from wrong.  

We could take the TC's original question and turn it around towards himself.


Why do you need a god, a fear of hell, a fear of a man in the sky to be a good person?
Would you kill, steal and rape if you knew there was no god?
Don't you have any morals as a plain and simple human being without having to be "taught" what good is?

[QUOTE="Loonie"] By saying it is not always true you are, it seems to me, admitting that it is true most of the time.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Loonie"] By saying it is not always true you are, it seems to me, admitting that it is true most of the time.Loonie

It's not true because the world backs it up.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] It's not true because the world backs it up.Loonie

[QUOTE="Loonie"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] It's not true because the world backs it up.LJS9502_basic

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative? If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other. Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of? Out of money? Just rob someone. As long as you dont get caught, who cares? There's no repercussion. We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing. I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much. There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is. Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end. Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

Well, I find it pretty disturbing that you see helping people as a "waste". It's funny (not in a "ha ha" way) that you think that the only reason to not be a jackass is because you're afraid that god is going to smite your as

Can you quote when I said that? Because I do not recall ever saying individuals make the correct decision in regards to others. I explained very briefly in a previous post why laws etc are needed. Try again.Loonie

As for the reason laws are needed....then you have agreed with my initial statement.  Why are you arguing?

[QUOTE="sheridan891"]

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative? If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other. Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of? Out of money? Just rob someone. As long as you dont get caught, who cares? There's no repercussion. We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing. I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much. There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is. Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end. Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

MrGeezer

Well, I find it pretty disturbing that you see helping people as a "waste". It's funny (not in a "ha ha" way) that you think that the only reason to not be a jackass is because you're afraid that god is going to smite your as

I thought that's what Christianity/Catholicism was all about, scaring the hell out of you to be good. In my 8 years of Catholic school, that's all I was, scared.Vax45

Huh....I went eight years to a Catholic school and that wasn't the way I was taught.

[QUOTE="Loonie"]Can you quote when I said that? Because I do not recall ever saying individuals make the correct decision in regards to others. I explained very briefly in a previous post why laws etc are needed. Try again.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="sheridan891"]no, sorry, but the only reason to waste your time caring about others is because you want to improve their lives. But at the same time, if there is no point to life, why should i care about that?doubutsuteki

The reason you waste your time caring about others is because you must work together with others in order to be appreciated and loved - the human being is a social being. If you cheat and lie to other people, if you hurt them, steal from them, kill their babies, etc. then you are clearly not going to be accepted. Even without god there are morals - men have always developed morals in other to function together in a society. Although those morals can change as human beings are flexible and can adapt to change. Now, caring about others doesn't have to mean devoting yourself to everyone elses life, and forgetting about your own. If that's what you think it's about, you misunderstand. It's better if people stand up for themselves - and I don't mean standing up for themselves against everyone else ...

gotta go. bbl

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Loonie"]Can you quote when I said that? Because I do not recall ever saying individuals make the correct decision in regards to others. I explained very briefly in a previous post why laws etc are needed. Try again.Loonie

[QUOTE="sheridan891"]no, sorry, but the only reason to waste your time caring about others is because you want to improve their lives. But at the same time, if there is no point to life, why should i care about that?doubutsuteki

The reason you waste your time caring about others is because you must work together with others in order to be appreciated and loved - the human being is a social being. If you cheat and lie to other people, if you hurt them, steal from them, kill their babies, etc. then you are clearly not going to be accepted. Even without god there are morals - men have always developed morals in other to function together in a society. Although those morals can change as human beings are flexible and can adapt to change. Now, caring about others doesn't have to mean devoting yourself to everyone elses life, and forgetting about your own. If that's what you think it's about, you misunderstand. It's better if people stand up for themselves - and I don't mean standing up for themselves against everyone else ...

gotta go. bbl

Huh....I went eight years to a Catholic school and that wasn't the way I was taught.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="hormagaunt"][QUOTE="sheridan891"]

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative? If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other. Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of? Out of money? Just rob someone. As long as you dont get caught, who cares? There's no repercussion. We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing. I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much. There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is. Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end. Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

no, sorry, but the only reason to waste your time caring about others is because you want to improve their lives. But at the same time, if there is no point to life, why should i care about that?

And like i said, you cant get caught breaking the law, otherwise defeating the purpose because there are consequences.

not all drugs kill you.

i dunno about you, but i feel better when i'm having a good time. and having a good time is eaiser when i'm not bothered by other peoples problems. There are only two choices. Either there is a point to helping people because life has a point, or there isn't. If you like to help people, then do that. But if you dont, then screw everyone else, right? If you're right, and there is only one life, i can live it however i want. you call me whatever you want, but you'll be dead and so will i and then it matter... right?

I think you're overlooking something important here.

Consider the people that you've met in life. Some people are nice, and some people are ****ing jerks. Now, nice people are usually treated well because people actually LIKE THEM. But when you run into a jerk, you're much more likely to treat that person as if he's a jerk.

See, you can spend your whole life being nice to people, and (for the most part) people will be nice to you. Or you can be a jerk, and then people will treat you like trash.

I don't know, maybe you ENJOY being treated like trash. But if you don't enjoy being treated like trash, and if there really is no life after death, then WHY would you spend the only life you have being a jerk to people?  Why would you want to spend your one and only life being hated by everyone?

Do you even understand my stance on this issue....because I'm not seeing that you do.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Do you even understand my stance on this issue....because I'm not seeing that you do.Loonie

[QUOTE="Loonie"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Do you even understand my stance on this issue....because I'm not seeing that you do.LJS9502_basic

Because not everyone is taught the same values we can't leave the definition of good and bad behavior to the individual. Initially, I responded to Karayan who felt that since he choose good behavior nothing more was needed. Society doesn't work that way.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="hormagaunt"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hormagaunt"] no laws are based on religion.....LJS9502_basic

I think you're overlooking that much of the morality in religions (religions vary, but a lot of the big religious laws are constant across pretty much ALL religions and cultures) was influenced by the needs of society. Prohibitions against murder and theft weren't made for no reason, they were made because a society can't survive with everyone constantly ****ing each other over. We're social animals, and our survival depends on the cohesion of the group. Regardless of religion, certain actions will ALWAYS be prohibited because they tend to result in anarchy. 

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hormagaunt"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hormagaunt"] no laws are based on religion.....MrGeezer

I think you're overlooking that much of the morality in religions (religions vary, but a lot of the big religious laws are constant across pretty much ALL religions and cultures) was influenced by the needs of society. Prohibitions against murder and theft weren't made for no reason, they were made because a society can't survive with everyone constantly ****ing each other over. We're social animals, and our survival depends on the cohesion of the group. Regardless of religion, certain actions will ALWAYS be prohibited because they tend to result in anarchy. 

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hormagaunt"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hormagaunt"] no laws are based on religion.....LJS9502_basic

I think you're overlooking that much of the morality in religions (religions vary, but a lot of the big religious laws are constant across pretty much ALL religions and cultures) was influenced by the needs of society. Prohibitions against murder and theft weren't made for no reason, they were made because a society can't survive with everyone constantly ****ing each other over. We're social animals, and our survival depends on the cohesion of the group. Regardless of religion, certain actions will ALWAYS be prohibited because they tend to result in anarchy.

Oh yes, I agree that MANY laws came into creation due to religious beliefs, I was just pointing out that a lot of the really major laws would still exist even if there was no religion.

I'm sure you know that, I just wanted to clarify that little point.

Oh yes, I agree that MANY laws came into creation due to religious beliefs, I was just pointing out that a lot of the really major laws would still exist even if there was no religion.I'm sure you know that, I just wanted to clarify that little point.MrGeezer

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative?  If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other.  Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of?  Out of money?  Just rob someone.  As long as you dont get caught, who cares?  There's no repercussion.  We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing.  I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much.  There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is.  Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end.  Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

No matter what anyone says without God there is nothing our generation and further will be destroyed learning there is no God we would destroy our race.jamesgj

people do good because of one of the three:

 fear of god

fear of authority

they're naturally good

i like to think most people are the third, but this isn't true.

[QUOTE="Loonie"] By saying it is not always true you are, it seems to me, admitting that it is true most of the time.LJS9502_basic

Well, it's not like you've given me the chance to finish my post yet. ;) I had to rush. 

people do good because of one of the three:

 fear of god

fear of authority

they're naturally good

 

i like to think most people are the third, but this isn't true.

shimmyshnardd

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative?  If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other.  Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of?  Out of money?  Just rob someone.  As long as you dont get caught, who cares?  There's no repercussion.  We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing.  I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much.  There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is.  Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end.  Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

I'm just curious, since plenty of people here like to redicule belief in a god, what is the alternative? If we exist for no purpose, and there is no afterlife to speak of, then why do we help each other. Why shouldn't everyone just do all the most selfish things they can think of? Out of money? Just rob someone. As long as you dont get caught, who cares? There's no repercussion. We should all be sleeping with whoever we can, getting annialated on whatever drugs we can get our hands on, stealing whatever we can get away with, and doing whatever the hell else we feel like doing. I haven't figured out exactly what i believe yet, but i'll tell you this much. There is no point in wasting your life doing "good" things for anyone but yourself if this life is all there is. Its much to short to waste helping others if when we die, that's the end. Some people might find that offensive, but they can all have waste lives not having fun, because i'll be having as much as i can if this is it.

sheridan891

Just a thought......

I can see how morality and good are completely relative and it makes sense that it is a "learned" system of behavior.

But look at animals.  Look at a pack of wolves for instance.  They live in packs, live in a way that seems to benefit the entire society of their group.  Now why aren't those wolves going out and murdering the others for their own benefit?  Did they learn this from being brought up?  It seems to me that it is instinct.  How could it not be?  They don't sit around a campfire pondering these things.  There is no morality there.  They do not have the ability to define morality, justness, or the better good.  It just is........it benefits their ability to survive.

So I would say that "good" is really defined as a balance of what works for the majority in a society versus the alternative.  Sure it is subjective and relative, but living with others there has to be a system in place that creates an environment that is beneficial to all.

So I'd say the will of the majority defines what is just. 

Just a thought......

I can see how morality and good are completely relative and it makes sense that it is a "learned" system of behavior.

But look at animals.  Look at a pack of wolves for instance.  They live in packs, live in a way that seems to benefit the entire society of their group.  Now why aren't those wolves going out and murdering the others for their own benefit?  Did they learn this from being brought up?  It seems to me that it is instinct.  How could it not be?  They don't sit around a campfire pondering these things.  There is no morality there.  They do not have the ability to define morality, justness, or the better good.  It just is........it benefits their ability to survive.

So I would say that "good" is really defined as a balance of what works for the majority in an society versus the alternative.  Sure it is subjective and relative, but living with others there has to be a system in place that creates an environment that is beneficial to all.

So I'd say the will of the majority defines what is just. 

Rekunta

Let me put this another way; what is it that makes a Christian (one who actually lives up to the teachings of Christ) behave in a compassionate way? Fear of punishment/hope of reward, or a fundamental change in their hearts that makes them feel compassion for others and desire to help and support them.xaos

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sheridan891"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sheridan891"]

haha, what because you say so?  the exact number may be a whim, but the fact that there is a speed limit at all proves my point.  Common sense says you should drive 120, so they make a speed limit.  Law reflecting common sense.  exactly what i said... now its over

sheridan891

:lol::lol:Indeed now it is over.:lol:  Don't worry you will learn.

oh i'm sorry, you dont have the COMMON SENSE to realize i meant "shouldn't".   hahaha

what in gods name are you talking about?  i mistyped and said "should" instead of "shouldn't".  But here i'll fix it for you so you can get it.  Common Sense says you should not drive at an unsafe rate of speed.  In order to try and make sure people do this, laws governing speed are inacted.  Law reflecting common sense.  The same could be applied to murder.  Common sense says you cant go around killing people, so murder is made illegal.  What part of that is wrong?  Educate me.

I thought you were atheist form your posts... of all people you should know that if we evolved from herbivore monkies we should have had to kill other animals to evolve because of the nutrients in it (thats the theory). Common sense then....?