So what did Jesus' death REALLY mean?

It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.sayyy-gaa

It probably meant no more than what Humpty Dumpty falling off a wall meant...

In a VERY condensed nustshell, it means that all Gentiles have the opportunity to join in the same convenant that God began with the Jews. It means that being baptized and believing in the power of the blood of Jesus Christ will MAKE YOU A NEW CREATURE. This means you just don't go around sinning willy nilly without repercussions.

God does punish sin, even though he forgives them. Also, once someone does accept Christ as Lord, they are representatives of the true and living God(the salt of the earth) and must behave as such. Additionally, it means you get to live forever in heaven after death.

Again, VERY condensed.

sayyy-gaa

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

In a VERY condensed nustshell, it means that all Gentiles have the opportunity to join in the same convenant that God began with the Jews. It means that being baptized and believing in the power of the blood of Jesus Christ will MAKE YOU A NEW CREATURE. This means you just don't go around sinning willy nilly without repercussions.

God does punish sin, even though he forgives them. Also, once someone does accept Christ as Lord, they are representatives of the true and living God(the salt of the earth) and must behave as such. Additionally, it means you get to live forever in heaven after death.

Again, VERY condensed.

junglist101

There is some truth to your statement. I don't have time to explain further.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.Funky_Llama

Coming from sugh a high-grade source on the subject, that's a compliment.

it meant the same as some random guy you didn't know being killed; nothing.themagicbum9720

Ummm...no. The mere fact we're talking about it 2000+ years later refutes your opinion.

Concerning John 14:6

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

One could also examine the word 'am'.

The verb to be has many uses the Oxford English Dictionary lists twenty four some of which are normally distinguished from each other only by context. One grammatical usage is the universal present, which is used to make statements that are always true, such as 'triangles are three-sided'.

Another usage applies to the present, but may not apply to the future as well, such as 'I am young' or 'I am alive'.

Christians usually understand the statement 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life', as a universal present, but could it not be meant to apply only to some period of time in the past? Could not Abraham have been the way, truth, and life for the peoples of the Middle East from 2000 BCE to respect in the English language that is applied the time of Moses; then Moses was the way, truth, and life until the time of Jesus; then Jesus was the way, truth, and life until the time of Muhammad; and so on?

It means that if God is willing to let Jesus die then he won't save your ass in a bad situation

Salvation is conditional according to the Bible, though God's love is unconditional. He'll probably let you know how much he loves you before he condemns you to an eternity of unimaginable torture for thinking that you could do whatever you want and be saved.

Salvation is conditional according to the Bible, though God's love is unconditional. He'll probably let you know how much he loves you before he condemns you to an eternity of unimaginable torture for thinking that you could do whatever you want and be saved.

FrKnPuertoRican

I dont recall the exact specifics of the meaning that the authors had intended. Something about opening the gates of heaven for man, but I certainly am no religous scholar. Remember that the original context for this was over 2000 years old, so the meaning implied back then may be harder for people of today to understand.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

In a VERY condensed nustshell, it means that all Gentiles have the opportunity to join in the same convenant that God began with the Jews. It means that being baptized and believing in the power of the blood of Jesus Christ will MAKE YOU A NEW CREATURE. This means you just don't go around sinning willy nilly without repercussions.

God does punish sin, even though he forgives them. Also, once someone does accept Christ as Lord, they are representatives of the true and living God(the salt of the earth) and must behave as such. Additionally, it means you get to live forever in heaven after death.

Again, VERY condensed.

sayyy-gaa

There is some truth to your statement. I don't have time to explain further.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.Funky_Llama

Agreed. Churches always ask you to worship their god, and give give them your money when asked for evidence their god is the real god, they give us books that could have been written by anyone, and claim our very existence is proof. sounds like a scam.Nibroc420

Never been to an orthodox church huh?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]Agreed. Churches always ask you to worship their god, and give give them your money when asked for evidence their god is the real god, they give us books that could have been written by anyone, and claim our very existence is proof. sounds like a scam.Philokalia

Never been to an orthodox church huh?

churches are churches, i dont care how they gather the people, the scam is still there. It's been there since the whole "Give us money and god will forgive your sins" trick they used in the dark ages.Nibroc420

You know my priest told me not worry or bother donating for my baptism and he constantly offered me fare for my 1 and half hour journey to and back from Church. But lets consider something, did the earliest churches do this? WHen they were established under direct persecution and there was no good reason, that is no profitable reason to be a Christian Bishop when one would die quite easily and the BIshops often did during the persecution? Christianity was not built to steal money, that postmodern view is just historically unjustified.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]churches are churches, i dont care how they gather the people, the scam is still there. It's been there since the whole "Give us money and god will forgive your sins" trick they used in the dark ages.Philokalia

You know my priest told me not worry or bother donating for my baptism and he constantly offered me fare for my 1 and half hour journey to and back from Church. But lets consider something, did the earliest churches do this? WHen they were established under direct persecution and there was no good reason, that is no profitable reason to be a Christian Bishop when one would die quite easily and the BIshops often did during the persecution? Christianity was not built to steal money, that postmodern view is just historically unjustified.

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

tenaka2

That makes no sense, how are you going to control people when you start a movement completely opposed to the ideas of Pagans, jews and Gnostics? This isn't how cults start.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

Philokalia

That makes no sense, how are you going to control people when you start a movement completely opposed to the ideas of Pagans, jews and Gnostics? This isn't how cults start.

State religions are controlled by the state, organised religion is a control mechanism, always has been. The romans for example absorbed the pagan rituals into the christian church so the pagans didn't mind joining.

State religions are controlled by the state, organised religion is a control mechanism, always has been. The romans for example absorbed the pagan rituals into the christian church so the pagans didn't mind joining.

tenaka2

Name one pagan ritual.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

State religions are controlled by the state, organised religion is a control mechanism, always has been. The romans for example absorbed the pagan rituals into the christian church so the pagans didn't mind joining.

Philokalia

Name one pagan ritual.

Christmas tree.

Easter.

Easter eggs.

The cross.

Mistletoe

I could go on, pretty much everything in christianity has some form of pagan origin, even the resurrection.

Jesus died so we can roll chocolate eggs down a hill and it will mean something.

Christmas tree.

a 16th century german tradition which has no direct connection to paganism.

Easter.

Known as pascha to the earliest Christians it is one of the most ancient Christian holidays that revolves around the jewish Passover. To Suggest that Easter is pagan, that is a day which is directly tied to the Jewish feast is not only an insult to history but an insult to logic. The Only connection easter has to paganism is in the english term (most if not all other languages say Pascha if it is practiced) and that connection to paganism is flimsy at best, based on verse from the venerable Bede in his history of the English church, other than that there is no reason to say it is Pagan.

Easter eggs.

Give any source which says pagans used Easter eggs for fertility rights.

The cross.

The pagans never used the cross in rituals, or religious practices, for the first century and indeed before and after the cross was a symbol of death. the power of the empire made incarnate. Christians used the cross in an ironic way to show by this gruesome tool life for all men has come, not pagan.

Mistletoe

No Christian thinks of the mistletoe theologically

I could go on, pretty much everything in christianity has some form of pagan origin, even the resurrection.

Ressurection in the ancient world is clear, Jews, pagans and the like believed it didn't happen and any attempts to show Christianity has been inspired in its belief on the ressurection fail when facts are taken into consideration. But I will see you dig yourself into a hole.

tenaka2

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

Philokalia

That makes no sense, how are you going to control people when you start a movement completely opposed to the ideas of Pagans, jews and Gnostics? This isn't how cults start.

You build temples to your new God on top of their old temples and commandeer their religious festivals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianised_sites

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Christmas tree.

a 16th century german tradition which has no direct connection to paganism.

Easter.

Known as pascha to the earliest Christians it is one of the most ancient Christian holidays that revolves around the jewish Passover. To Suggest that Easter is pagan, that is a day which is directly tied to the Jewish feast is not only an insult to history but an insult to logic. The Only connection easter has to paganism is in the english term (most if not all other languages say Pascha if it is practiced) and that connection to paganism is flimsy at best, based on verse from the venerable Bede in his history of the English church, other than that there is no reason to say it is Pagan.

Easter eggs.

Give any source which says pagans used Easter eggs for fertility rights.

The cross.

The pagans never used the cross in rituals, or religious practices, for the first century and indeed before and after the cross was a symbol of death. the power of the empire made incarnate. Christians used the cross in an ironic way to show by this gruesome tool life for all men has come, not pagan.

Mistletoe

No Christian thinks of the mistletoe theologically

I could go on, pretty much everything in christianity has some form of pagan origin, even the resurrection.

Ressurection in the ancient world is clear, Jews, pagans and the like believed it didn't happen and any attempts to show Christianity has been inspired in its belief on the ressurection fail when facts are taken into consideration. But I will see you dig yourself into a hole.

Philokalia

You realise that a lie is a sin, regardless if its in defence of your religion?

I will counter your lies after I eat my chips.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]Agreed. Churches always ask you to worship their god, and give give them your money when asked for evidence their god is the real god, they give us books that could have been written by anyone, and claim our very existence is proof. sounds like a scam.Nibroc420

Never been to an orthodox church huh?

You sound pretty jaded which is not at all surprising. What you are stating would have been a valid argument, about 1500 years ago which is around the time the Protestant Reformation started.

Nowadays, members of churches give freely, not for having sins being forgiven. Jesus Christ already handled the forgiveness part.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Christmas tree.

a 16th century german tradition which has no direct connection to paganism.

tenaka2

You realise that a lie is a sin, regardless if its in defence of your religion?

I will counter your lies after I eat my chips.

x-mas tree

The Christmas tree was meant to honor Odin, the Norse God. It would have been hung with the sacrifice of nine animals. The tradition of the tree was co-opted by Marin Luther, and later brought to the New World.

Easter - its even named after the goddess.

Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations.

The word "Easter" is named after Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring. A festival was held in her honor every year at the vernal equinox.

The cross

The history of the cross, and its worship and use as a religious symbol goes back long before Christ.It was a symbol used by pagan nations. Many historians claim the cross was originated by early Eyptians and Babylonians. For reference see The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop and research by John Gardner Wilkinson titled Wilkinson's Egyptians. The misconception of what the cross is has been carried over from the Egyptians and Babylonians and today taught as a symbol of worship. No where in the Bible is the cross discribed as a symbol of worship.

Resurrection

Many religious historians and liberal theologians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simplygrafted onto stories of Jesus' lifein order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels werelifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity.4Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value with no connection to Jesus. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.

Don't f*ck with the Romans ?

I dunno.

Nailing yourself to a plank of wood may cause death.markop2003

Extreme planking?

[QUOTE="DarkOfKnight"]Can you prove Jesus even existed? The bible is a work of fiction anyway.

But the Quran isn't.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]churches are churches, i dont care how they gather the people, the scam is still there. It's been there since the whole "Give us money and god will forgive your sins" trick they used in the dark ages.tenaka2

You know my priest told me not worry or bother donating for my baptism and he constantly offered me fare for my 1 and half hour journey to and back from Church. But lets consider something, did the earliest churches do this? WHen they were established under direct persecution and there was no good reason, that is no profitable reason to be a Christian Bishop when one would die quite easily and the BIshops often did during the persecution? Christianity was not built to steal money, that postmodern view is just historically unjustified.

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

Really? Purely for profit? Please explain

1. Feeding the hungry whether they are believers or not

2. Offering assistance to the unemployed who need help to pay rent/food/other expenses

3. Going around the world to do stuff like drill water wells, clothe people, perform medical services to those with no means to get it

4. Building homes for the homeless or offering medical supplies to shelters

All that stuff is done by churches worldwide for FREE. Where is the profit in that?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

You know my priest told me not worry or bother donating for my baptism and he constantly offered me fare for my 1 and half hour journey to and back from Church. But lets consider something, did the earliest churches do this? WHen they were established under direct persecution and there was no good reason, that is no profitable reason to be a Christian Bishop when one would die quite easily and the BIshops often did during the persecution? Christianity was not built to steal money, that postmodern view is just historically unjustified.

sayyy-gaa

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

Really? Purely for profit? Please explain

1. Feeding the hungry whether they are believers or not

2. Offering assistance to the unemployed who need help to pay rent/food/other expenses

3. Going around the world to do stuff like drill water wells, clothe people, perform medical services to those with no means to get it

4. Building homes for the homeless or offering medical supplies to shelters

All that stuff is done by churches worldwide for FREE. Where is the profit in that?

All of the about is done only to increase the soul quota.

the nature of disbelief is interesting, in that you can never be sure what' motivates it more, genuine curiosity, or the need to put other people down and place authority over them.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Your right, it was about control as well as money. All organised religion exists for purely its own benefit and profit.

tenaka2

Really? Purely for profit? Please explain

1. Feeding the hungry whether they are believers or not

2. Offering assistance to the unemployed who need help to pay rent/food/other expenses

3. Going around the world to do stuff like drill water wells, clothe people, perform medical services to those with no means to get it

4. Building homes for the homeless or offering medical supplies to shelters

All that stuff is done by churches worldwide for FREE. Where is the profit in that?

All of the about is done only to increase the soul quota.

No it is not. That stuff is done whether the people receiving the services are believers or not. It is done to help the fellow man.

The guy died so we can have not only one but TWO holidays dedicated to it, that must be the most epic death ever!

Well Adam and Eve ate the apple, causing the rest of us to be a sin in his eyes from that point forward. Jesus came a long teaching the way of God and he died doing so to prove that he was God's son and that God existed.

He died so we could sin and do Peyote like he used to do back in the day.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

Really? Purely for profit? Please explain

1. Feeding the hungry whether they are believers or not

2. Offering assistance to the unemployed who need help to pay rent/food/other expenses

3. Going around the world to do stuff like drill water wells, clothe people, perform medical services to those with no means to get it

4. Building homes for the homeless or offering medical supplies to shelters

All that stuff is done by churches worldwide for FREE. Where is the profit in that?

sayyy-gaa

All of the about is done only to increase the soul quota.

No it is not. That stuff is done whether the people receiving the services are believers or not. It is done to help the fellow man.

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

Again the connection to easter is flimsy, should I call I pascha instead so that you can?t possibly say it is pagan? The term easter for your knowledge is in the English and I believe there is a similar word in german, but that?s it. That is in the only connection to paganism one can possibly find. Christians who have spoken greek since the second century have called this celebration Pascha, derived from the hewbrew of the word Pasach. That being said give one pre Christian celebration by pagans which follows the Hebrew calander and relates directly to it. Quite simply such a thing doesn?t exist and if you are going to claim it does you need to offer proof of it, not just claim it based on absolutely nothing.

Now please give evidence pre Christian the cross was anything but a symbol of death. Now as to the "scholars" you quoted these are from the 17th and 18th century... Do I have to say more about this? Scholarship evolves it does you should know well with science and egytptology in particular has been through a revolution which has increased our understanding of the ancient egyptians beyond description. Now heres what you need to do. Provide any pre Christian primary source which says the cross is a thing of worship and not a thing of death. BTW Christians never give Latria to the cross.

No scholar believes in what you are saying about the resurrection. There are no pre Christian sources that describe the belief in the resurrection of pagan entities and anyone similar quite simply doesn?t match up to the idea of resurrection within the Jewish and New testament scripture. Not only this but even if such a thing were to exist you could not decisively prove it was what inspired Christianity, in order to do such a thing you have to directly tie this belief and give evidence that it was known in first century Judaism and proceed to explain how the apostles knew this, I doubt you will be able to this. That being said all the other zietgeistian claims miss one fundamental point, evidence, there is no primary pre Christian sources for these claims. But if you can find one Hindu text that describes there being One God, that is One substance of divinity shared by three persons, provide it. Good luck.

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

Philokalia

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

Theancient Egyptiansworshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Your fighting a losing battle here. Your never going to see it but I will try anyway.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

tenaka2

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

Theancient Egyptiansworshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Your fighting a losing battle here. Your never going to see it but I will try anyway.

Deuteronomy 4:19 - "And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Revelation 21:23 - "And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb."

All you have to do is repent for your sins and acknowledge Jesus as your lord and savior to get into heaven.

Pikdum

Done... waiting for respawn.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

No offence, but the Bold sentence sounds like complete bull$hit.

sayyy-gaa

You aren't the first or last to argue with the word of God and that's fine. That's your right. That said, all I did was clarify a point that a poster made that he was unsure about.

It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.

You're talking as though "the divine" isn't the shttiest story ever invented. If religion actually existed before the arrival of humans on Earth, if the stories behind them weren't so poorly designed and filled with plot holes, contradictions, crappy writing and apalling "morality" lessons that only barbaric tribes of that time call "moral", if there weren't 2509275203457234 versions of gods to choose from, if those 250725923752305 stories behind these gods weren't (for the most part) ripoffs of another god's story, if all the gods weren't so blatantly anthropomorphic, then maybe you'd have a point.

It doesn't matter in either case, it's not like you'll give a damn about what anyone says that goes against your religion. You just posted that to hear people agree with you.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

tenaka2

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

Theancient Egyptiansworshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Your fighting a losing battle here. Your never going to see it but I will try anyway.

Wow really you actually have to EXPLAIN to some one that holidays like Christmas was adopted from pagen faiths?