So what did Jesus' death REALLY mean?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

sSubZerOo

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

Theancient Egyptiansworshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Your fighting a losing battle here. Your never going to see it but I will try anyway.

Wow really you actually have to EXPLAIN to some one that holidays like Christmas was adopted from pagen faiths?

There are people who still believe that we came from dirt and mud and that the universe was formed in 6 days. Religion ftw?

That's who's going to tend my garden?

You know, I never really got the whole "died for our sins" thing, he was crucified by the Romans and he took the punishment, end of story.

metroidprime55

If I ever die by somebody's doing, my last words will be "I'm dying for your sins.".

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

You know, I never really got the whole "died for our sins" thing, he was crucified by the Romans and he took the punishment, end of story.

jerk-o-tron2000

If I ever die by somebody's doing, my last words will be "I'm dying for your sins.".

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

You know, I never really got the whole "died for our sins" thing, he was crucified by the Romans and he took the punishment, end of story.

wis3boi

If I ever die by somebody's doing, my last words will be "I'm dying for your sins.".

No one likes you, no holiday for you :P

Goddammit! I wanted a holiday.

Jerk Day, the only day of the year when you can be the biggest a$$hole/b!tch you can be....

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

If I ever die by somebody's doing, my last words will be "I'm dying for your sins.".

jerk-o-tron2000

No one likes you, no holiday for you :P

Goddammit! I wanted a holiday.

Jerk Day, the only day of the year when you can be the biggest a$$hole/b!tch you can be....

HEY

The Jerk Store called, they're running out of you!

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

No one likes you, no holiday for you :P

Optical_Order

Goddammit! I wanted a holiday.

Jerk Day, the only day of the year when you can be the biggest a$$hole/b!tch you can be....

HEY

The Jerk Store called, they're running out of you!

Tell them I'll drop by later.

it is my understanding that one has to truely repent that it is not guranteed the only guarantee was that the people that commit sins before and didn't believe in christ *pre christian bibilical figures that were stuck in limbo* they're sins were forgiven but after that people had to still repent....

I dont believe in christ though I do believe in god *my ideal is much more in common with the jewish faith set* but I believe that is the case for christ and I was raised lutheran soo...

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

HEY

The Jerk Store called, they're running out of you!

InEMplease

Tell them I'll drop by later.

You're just being nice because you had sex with his wife.

Um.....He wasn't supposed to find out...Well, not like this.

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Tell them I'll drop by later.

jerk-o-tron2000

You're just being nice because you had sex with his wife.

Um.....He wasn't supposed to find out...Well, not like this.

She's... in a coma :(

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

You're just being nice because you had sex with his wife.

Optical_Order

Um.....He wasn't supposed to find out...Well, not like this.

She's... in a coma :(

That's what makes it so horrible!

.

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Um.....He wasn't supposed to find out...Well, not like this.

jerk-o-tron2000

She's... in a coma :(

That's what makes it so horrible!

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

She's... in a coma :(

Optical_Order

That's what makes it so horrible!

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

Who cares? He's dead.

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

That's what makes it so horrible!

jerk-o-tron2000

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

Who cares? He's dead.

He's coming back :roll:

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

Optical_Order

Who cares? He's dead.

He's coming back :roll:

Must have came across a green mushroom.

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

Optical_Order

Who cares? He's dead.

He's coming back :roll:

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Who cares? He's dead.

wis3boi

He's coming back :roll:

That's cool......Only pu$$ies sleep anyway.

In Islam, Jesus was not killed but has ascended to heaven and will come back at the end of time. Just saying.GazaAli

In Christianity that's gonna happen too. We believe he was killed but he has resurrected and ascended. He's gonna return in the last days and bring the pain to all disbelievers!

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

He's coming back :roll:

jerk-o-tron2000

That's cool......Only pu$$ies sleep anyway.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

All of the about is done only to increase the soul quota.

Nibroc420

No it is not. That stuff is done whether the people receiving the services are believers or not. It is done to help the fellow man.

Christianity is based on love. God is love. Jesus teaches us to love our brothers as ourselves. And so, we give to our fellow man. However, we don't HAVE to do it. Christianity is all about choice.

Also, people were helping their brothers LONG before the ministry of Jesus Christ began. Many Christians would still help others even if they weren't believers, but since they are, we help in his name. Based on your logic, all of the assistance Christians have done in the world would never have happened if not for Christ's ministries, which is not a valid assertion.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Yeah the logic behind it is flawed. "Who created the universe and everything in it?" "This dude in the sky" "How can we be sure he's real?" "How can you not tell? He made everything!" "Oh well he must exist!" lolwut?Heisenderp

You aren't the first or last to argue with the word of God and that's fine. That's your right. That said, all I did was clarify a point that a poster made that he was unsure about.

It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.

You're talking as though "the divine" isn't the shttiest story ever invented. If religion actually existed before the arrival of humans on Earth, if the stories behind them weren't so poorly designed and filled with plot holes, contradictions, crappy writing and apalling "morality" lessons that only barbaric tribes of that time call "moral", if there weren't 2509275203457234 versions of gods to choose from, if those 250725923752305 stories behind these gods weren't (for the most part) ripoffs of another god's story, if all the gods weren't so blatantly anthropomorphic, then maybe you'd have a point.

It doesn't matter in either case, it's not like you'll give a damn about what anyone says that goes against your religion. You just posted that to hear people agree with you.

Where do you get off? I wasn't trying to get anyone to agree with me. I was posting a response to a statement. I said it's not like you can use human logic to explain the divine. That's the truth. That's why believers(of any religion) have faith. What on earth does what I posted have to do with your typical opinion of organized religion? Answer: absolutely nothing.

When it comes to **** big-time, major league **** you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest **** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good **** story. Holy ****

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is **** up.

InEMplease

Why does this assertion keep popping up in this thread/forum? Are you people visiting churches where they have a cover charge before you can come in? God loves a CHEERFUL giver, i.e. someone who wants to give. You don't have to give to God's house and he definitely doesn't force you. Where are you all getting this from?

Also I can 't speak for all churches but for any church I've ever been a part of, the church is responsible to tell the congregation how the funds are being handled to ensure God's work is being done. It's not like you give an offering and then you have no idea where the money goes.

Yes, Christian churches do take in money. How can God's work(or any work) be done on a local/state/national/global scale without any funds?

You know, I never really got the whole "died for our sins" thing, he was crucified by the Romans and he took the punishment, end of story. metroidprime55

What part dont you get? He was the prophesied savior who died for the sins of man that we might be forgiven. He was the perfect offering to wash away our sins, a lamb without blemish.

The crucifixion was just part of his destiny. He didn't HAVE to die, he could've done tons of things to avoid his temporary death, but it was necessary.

[QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

You aren't the first or last to argue with the word of God and that's fine. That's your right. That said, all I did was clarify a point that a poster made that he was unsure about.

It's no big secret that you can't consistently use human logic to explain the divine.

sayyy-gaa

You're talking as though "the divine" isn't the shttiest story ever invented. If religion actually existed before the arrival of humans on Earth, if the stories behind them weren't so poorly designed and filled with plot holes, contradictions, crappy writing and apalling "morality" lessons that only barbaric tribes of that time call "moral", if there weren't 2509275203457234 versions of gods to choose from, if those 250725923752305 stories behind these gods weren't (for the most part) ripoffs of another god's story, if all the gods weren't so blatantly anthropomorphic, then maybe you'd have a point.

It doesn't matter in either case, it's not like you'll give a damn about what anyone says that goes against your religion. You just posted that to hear people agree with you.

Where do you get off? I wasn't trying to get anyone to agree with me. I was posting a response to a statement. I said it's not like you can use human logic to explain the divine. That's the truth. That's why believers(of any religion) have faith. What on earth does what I posted have to do with your typical opinion of organized religion? Answer: absolutely nothing.

What I said has everything to do with your statement. You claim that God is beyond logic, but anyone who's not a dumbass can easily see that it's quite the opposite. Everything that concerns God is so stupidly written a mongoloid could have done a better job; how is that "beyond human logic"? It's just primitive and dumbass thinking invented just by humans.

Like I said, and like you try to pretend that it's irrelevant, if the story in the Bible was actually a masterpiece that's far superior to even the greatest works of literature, if it was so perfectly written that no human can come close to it, then you might have a point, and the "word of God" might be beyond human comprehension. Unfortunately, the quality of what's written in the Bible is pure trash; a baboon in front of a typewriter could make a more coherent and better written story than that.

If you're still going to keep repeating that what I said is irrelevant, then that's just sad.

[QUOTE="Optical_Order"]

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

That's what makes it so horrible!

jerk-o-tron2000

We'll see what Jesus says about this.

Who cares? He's dead.

Not dead.

What I said has everything to do with your statement. You claim that God is beyond logic, but anyone who's not a dumbass can easily see that it's quite the opposite. Everything that concerns God is so stupidly written a mongoloid could have done a better job; how is that "beyond human logic"? It's just primitive and dumbass thinking invented just by humans.

Like I said, and like you try to pretend that it's irrelevant, if the story in the Bible was actually a masterpiece that's far superior to even the greatest works of literature, if it was so perfectly written that no human can come close to it, then you might have a point, and the "word of God" might be beyond human comprehension. Unfortunately, the quality of what's written in the Bible is pure trash; a baboon in front of a typewriter could make a more coherent and better written story than that.

If you're still going to keep repeating that what I said is irrelevant, then that's just sad.

Heisenderp

I'm not talking about the bible as a great literary opus, like a Homer poem or something. I'm talking about it as the inspired word of God. And no, you can't use human logic to explain faith. Faith has nothing to do with logic. You have it or you don't . If you can't understand that, then that is what is sad.

It varies from Christian sect to sect, some believe that believing in Jesus isn't enough and that they have to do other things like baptisim ect...and they vary widely on the concept of hell, some believe that one has to accept Jesus to go hevean or they go to hell.

Of course this doesn't make sense as a loving and merciful God wouldn't send millions of people to hell for simply not knowing or beliving, why would God send Jews, Muslims, or people who never heard of Jesus to hell?Under their beliefs God isn't merciful and that would mean that the Jews that died in the Holocaust went to hell and Hitler went to Heaven because he was a "Christian" (he didn't really practice the beliefs of course)

Then there are other groups of Christians that believe Jesus died for ALL people and only he will judge them, under their view Jews, Muslims, or people who didn't hear about Jesus can all go to heaven. Catholics for example are in this camp. What's interesting is that the concept of Hell isn't in the orgional text (The Torah), "Hell" is simply a lack of soul or distance of God, there is no firey pit of torture. It's simply not having your soul live on, it's like you never existed. This is the concept of Hell that I believe in, not the Christian version of it.

Me personally I am not a Christian, however I do believe Jesus was a very wise man and there is a lot to learn from him. And baesed off of that I seriously doubt that God would send millions of people to hell just because they practice a different religion or didn't learn about it. In fact the oriogianl text (The Torah) says that all a Gentile has to do to earn a place with God (heaven) is to follow the Noahide laws which are simply don't murder, don't steal, don't eat human flesh, don't practice sexual perversions ect...

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

[QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

What I said has everything to do with your statement. You claim that God is beyond logic, but anyone who's not a dumbass can easily see that it's quite the opposite. Everything that concerns God is so stupidly written a mongoloid could have done a better job; how is that "beyond human logic"? It's just primitive and dumbass thinking invented just by humans.

Like I said, and like you try to pretend that it's irrelevant, if the story in the Bible was actually a masterpiece that's far superior to even the greatest works of literature, if it was so perfectly written that no human can come close to it, then you might have a point, and the "word of God" might be beyond human comprehension. Unfortunately, the quality of what's written in the Bible is pure trash; a baboon in front of a typewriter could make a more coherent and better written story than that.

If you're still going to keep repeating that what I said is irrelevant, then that's just sad.

InEMplease

I'm not talking about the bible as a great literary opus, like a Homer poem or something. I'm talking about it as the inspired word of God. And no, you can't use human logic to explain faith. Faith has nothing to do with logic. You have it or you don't . If you can't understand that, then that is what is sad.

The bible has already been determined to be allegorical. I think it's actually stated early in the bible to be allegorical.

I never said that every word in the bible should be taken literally. Tons of it is uses allegorical references. A parable is pretty much an allegory by definition. Your point ?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Now Tenaka you accuse me of lying all the time, and I suggest you actually prove I am lying before being so blatantly dishonest.

Now I want you to give positive evidence for your claims about the Christmas tree from pre Christian sources and directly tie and connect that tradition and belief to the 16th century german practice of the Christmas tree. Please do this.

sSubZerOo

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.

In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

Theancient Egyptiansworshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Your fighting a losing battle here. Your never going to see it but I will try anyway.

Wow really you actually have to EXPLAIN to some one that holidays like Christmas was adopted from pagen faiths?

Yes, I realise it strange, but pocahontas seems to have some kind of mental block regarding the origins of christianity.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

No it is not. That stuff is done whether the people receiving the services are believers or not. It is done to help the fellow man.

sayyy-gaa

Christianity is based on love. God is love. Jesus teaches us to love our brothers as ourselves. And so, we give to our fellow man. However, we don't HAVE to do it. Christianity is all about choice.

Also, people were helping their brothers LONG before the ministry of Jesus Christ began. Many Christians would still help others even if they weren't believers, but since they are, we help in his name. Based on your logic, all of the assistance Christians have done in the world would never have happened if not for Christ's ministries, which is not a valid assertion.

[QUOTE="sayyy-gaa"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] it is done to "help fellow man", as jesus told his followers to do. They're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, they're doing it because a book written by men, full of stories fabricated by men, told them to.Nibroc420

Christianity is based on love. God is love. Jesus teaches us to love our brothers as ourselves. And so, we give to our fellow man. However, we don't HAVE to do it. Christianity is all about choice.

Also, people were helping their brothers LONG before the ministry of Jesus Christ began. Many Christians would still help others even if they weren't believers, but since they are, we help in his name. Based on your logic, all of the assistance Christians have done in the world would never have happened if not for Christ's ministries, which is not a valid assertion.

Even though we disagree with religion as a whole, I'm not sure it's fair to assume that all good done by the religious is selfishly motivated. It's also not fair to be cynical about everyones good deeds, although obviously some people are suspect.

*Inserted appeal to ridicule*

wis3boi

I wonder do atheists actually think this is an accurate description of Christian belief?

Yes, I realise it strange, but pocahontas seems to have some kind of mental block regarding the origins of christianity.

tenaka2

I'll readily admit I cannot address you on the Christmas tree in any proper way but I can certaintly address you on your other claims which you have offered no reasoning for. Lets take Easter for instance. Can you give any pagan group which celebrated a day which was a moveable feast day in relation to the Jewish passover and before that usually involving fasting and constant liturgical worship in preparation for the risen Christ? Can you actually do what no one can prove? Also i must ask why appeal to out of date scholarship? You do realise egyptolgy has grown in leaps and bounds in its understanding since the 1800s and that it was generally a time of ignorance based on greek ideas which utterly failed to understand the pre hellenised egyptian paganism?

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

*Inserted appeal to ridicule*

Philokalia

I wonder do atheists actually think this is an accurate description of Christian belief?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

*are you suggesting that my internet source is over 200 years old?

Yes, I realise it strange, but pocahontas seems to have some kind of mental block regarding the origins of christianity.

Philokalia

I'll readily admit I cannot address you on the Christmas tree in any proper way but I can certaintly address you on your other claims which you have offered no reasoning for. Lets take Easter for instance. Can you give any pagan group which celebrated a day which was a moveable feast day in relation to the Jewish passover and before that usually involving fasting and constant liturgical worship in preparation for the risen Christ? Can you actually do what no one can prove? Also i must ask why appeal to out of date scholarship? You do realise egyptolgy has grown in leaps and bounds in its understanding since the 1800s and that it was generally a time of ignorance based on greek ideas which utterly failed to understand the pre hellenised egyptian paganism?

I was intentionally doing 1 issue at a time. You do realise that the word Easter itself is a gods name? THis clue should be enough for you but I will go on regardless.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm

origin of the name 'Easter'

The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient Goddess and God. The Venerable Bede, (672-735CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his bookDe Ratione Temporumthat Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother Goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe. Similarly, the "Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility [was] known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos."1Her name was derived from the ancient word for spring: "eastre." Similar Goddesses were known by other names in ancient cultures around the Mediterranean, and were celebrated in the springtime. Some were:

Pagan origins of Easter:

Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a consort, Attis, who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. Attis was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25.

Gerald L. Berry, author of "Religions of the World," wrote:

"About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection."3

Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians:

"... used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."

Many religious historians and liberal theologians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simplygrafted onto stories of Jesus' lifein order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels werelifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity.4Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value with no connection to Jesus. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Yes, I realise it strange, but pocahontas seems to have some kind of mental block regarding the origins of christianity.

Philokalia

I'll readily admit I cannot address you on the Christmas tree in any proper way but I can certaintly address you on your other claims which you have offered no reasoning for. Lets take Easter for instance. Can you give any pagan group which celebrated a day which was a moveable feast day in relation to the Jewish passover and before that usually involving fasting and constant liturgical worship in preparation for the risen Christ? Can you actually do what no one can prove? Also i must ask why appeal to out of date scholarship? You do realise egyptolgy has grown in leaps and bounds in its understanding since the 1800s and that it was generally a time of ignorance based on greek ideas which utterly failed to understand the pre hellenised egyptian paganism?

Now in regards to the term Easter one must submit first and foremost the earliest Christians who celebrated the feast did not speak English, nor did they speak german, they spoke Latin, Greek and Assyrian and other such languages to which Christianity spread. And they called Pascha. This is a fact you continually overlook when it comes to this point Tenaka and you need to address it, what early pagan group had a holiday called Pascha and was in direct relationship to the Jewish Passover? Now you quote religioustolerance a site so poor for its scholarship and it quotes Someone called Gerald L Berry, who was this man first and foremost and what early sources does he use? Im not buying such quotes much like you wouldn?t buy it if I were to just quote Jack Chick in support of X argument. Here is what you need to do Tenaka. You need to do the research instead of just googling ?Easter is Pagan? and going to the first website you see and believing in everything you say. You need to look at early historical documents and see if such a feast and beliefs, such as the resurrection of Attis and the like were actually believed before the advent of Christ and this somehow reached Palestine and influenced the apostles or at least the Christians past them. This is the task that is set before you and I won?t lie I don?t think you have any hope whatsoever in proving this as it quite simply doesn?t exist. The only positive argument you can bring is the English term easter, and that while possibly having pagan origins says nothing as to the feast itself which predates that English term and can be found in the second century via the fragments of Iraneaus and is made clear by the Quartodecimenism debates between the eastern and the western churches on which day it should be celebrated.

Now You continuesly make these claims about the trinity and these pagan stories, simply provide the pre Christian evidence and show that these stories somehow reached first century Palestine and that the apostles incorporated them. Show in the hindu texts the teaching of one God, that is one substance of divinity shared by three persons. You won?t be able to do this because there is no evidence.

Atheists are fond of saying ?the burden of proof is on the theist? but in this case it is clearly on the atheist who makes these positive claims regarding Easter, the resurrection and the trinity.

Now in responce to Jungelist, I see little evidence for suggesting the liturgical practices of the church and the theology are from or inspired from paganism. Rather they reflect the jewish tradition of the second temple which was inherently liturgical in its worship in both the temple and synagouge. in fact the worship of Jews today is liturgical.

the burden of proof is on the theist?

Philokalia

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

the burden of proof is on the theist?

junglist101

That extraordinary claim being that Easter is derived from paganism.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

the burden of proof is on the theist?

Philokalia

That extraordinary claim being that Easter is derived from paganism.

Philokalia

So rather then counter any of the information I gave you, you want me to rename easter and see if this name mathes anything?

Did you even read the information I provided?

Easter is the pagan gods name!! Why cant you understand this?

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]In Islam, Jesus was not killed but has ascended to heaven and will come back at the end of time. Just saying.sayyy-gaa

In Christianity that's gonna happen too. We believe he was killed but he has resurrected and ascended. He's gonna return in the last days and bring the pain to all disbelievers!