Sphephen Fry debate against catholicism

Oh and here is another link from CNN (I dont know if it is considered biased), where Pope says:

"You cant resolve it with the distribution of condoms...

On the contrary it increases the problem."

He didnt even bother adding a "could" somewhere in that statement of his.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] What point?Snipes_2

.. I don't see how him having to be athiest or not would have anything to do with the argument when it comes to things like condoms..

inked from Pubmed: AIDS: Researchers from Switzerland's Lausanne University Institute of Social and Preventative Medicine report the results of a media and school-based prevention education program that promoted condom use, sexual abstinence, and marital fidelity. Findings indicated that condom usage has increased dramatically and people are engaging in no more sex now than when the campaign began. The findings should reassure those who fear that widespread condom education will increase sexual activity and promiscuity. These findings are consistent with studies on condom use and sexual behavior in Germany and other European nations Condoms do not really contribute to promiscuity. I am not at liberty to exactly say what does contribute to it, because I do not know, but this study shows that condoms are not necessarily the cause or even a contribution to promiscuity.clayron

Oh and here is another link from CNN (I dont know if it is considered biased), where Pope says:

"You cant resolve it with the distribution of condoms...

On the contrary it increases the problem."

He didnt even bother adding a "could" somewhere in that statement of his.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Oh and here is another link from CNN (I dont know if it is considered biased), where Pope says:

"You cant resolve it with the distribution of condoms...

On the contrary it increases the problem."

He didnt even bother adding a "could" somewhere in that statement of his.

LJS9502_basic

Of course, no one said he claimed that condoms literally and directly cause AIDS. Only a literally crazy person would say that.

He makes a correlation though with a strong implication of causation between use of condoms and the spread of AIDS.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]About the spreading of lies not being only a matter of opinion (about what is a lie and what isnt).

clayron

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]About the spreading of lies not being only a matter of opinion (about what is a lie and what isnt).

sSubZerOo

.. I don't see how him having to be athiest or not would have anything to do with the argument when it comes to things like condoms..

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Richymisiak"] so only atheists think that saying condoms spread aids is a lie?clayron

This especially needed to be said.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Oh and here is another link from CNN (I dont know if it is considered biased), where Pope says:

"You cant resolve it with the distribution of condoms...

On the contrary it increases the problem."

He didnt even bother adding a "could" somewhere in that statement of his.

Teenaged

Of course, no one said he claimed that condoms literally and directly cause AIDS. Only a literally crazy person would say that.

He makes a correlation though with a strong implication of causation between use of condoms and the spread of AIDS.

[QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

Oh please...

Xx_Hopeless_xX

That doesn't stop me from being right. The corruption that has gone on and that continues to go on within the Catholic church is unbelievable.

The leaders are human..can't expect them to be perfect..

Well from 1870 the Pope among catholics is considered as a person who doesn't make mistakes referring to the teachings of Church and Customs. That near damn perfect.

[QUOTE="clayron"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Oh, I didn't see that. If you're an Atheist, of course you're going to think the church is "Spreading Lies". It depends on your Religious Perspective. Snipes_2

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I believe he was talking about more incidents of sex though....not that condoms spread the disease. Let's keep on page here and not make assumptions.LJS9502_basic

Of course, no one said he claimed that condoms literally and directly cause AIDS. Only a literally crazy person would say that.

He makes a correlation though with a strong implication of causation between use of condoms and the spread of AIDS.

Now you are just justifying the Pope's opinion against condoms in general. But that hardly justifies the misinformative nature of his words in regards to the relation of condoms and AIDS.

Once again, the topic is AIDS, not promiscuity, other STDs and pregnancy. Those can speak only in favour of supporting abstinence in general, not in favour of supporting that 'condoms (definitely) increase the problem' (AIDS).

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I believe he was talking about more incidents of sex though....not that condoms spread the disease. Let's keep on page here and not make assumptions.LJS9502_basic

Of course, no one said he claimed that condoms literally and directly cause AIDS. Only a literally crazy person would say that.

He makes a correlation though with a strong implication of causation between use of condoms and the spread of AIDS.

And you're saying this is a bad thing? You would rather see more unwanted pregnancies and greater spread of STD's?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Richymisiak"] so only atheists think that saying condoms spread aids is a lie?clayron

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="clayron"] Do you know how the Lutheran church started? If not, you should look it up. Its not an athiest thing. Christians have been calling BS on the Catholic Church for centuries. theone86

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Those are the Religious Views of another man. Of course he's going to speak out against the Church.

Snipes_2

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

So a person who speaks against the Catholic Church is never right and does it only to make themselves feel better....

:|

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Those are the Religious Views of another man. Of course he's going to speak out against the Church.

Snipes_2

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

[QUOTE="clayron"]inked from Pubmed: AIDS: Researchers from Switzerland's Lausanne University Institute of Social and Preventative Medicine report the results of a media and school-based prevention education program that promoted condom use, sexual abstinence, and marital fidelity. Findings indicated that condom usage has increased dramatically and people are engaging in no more sex now than when the campaign began. The findings should reassure those who fear that widespread condom education will increase sexual activity and promiscuity. These findings are consistent with studies on condom use and sexual behavior in Germany and other European nations Condoms do not really contribute to promiscuity. I am not at liberty to exactly say what does contribute to it, because I do not know, but this study shows that condoms are not necessarily the cause or even a contribution to promiscuity.LJS9502_basic

Pubmed:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

People use condoms for protection. I think that is pretty clear. And, no, latex condoms are not 100%, but when used correctly they have a >90% success rate, and break less than 1% of the time.

This may also help convince you. Make sure you look at the sources before dismissing it.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Richymisiak"] so only atheists think that saying condoms spread aids is a lie?Teenaged

Thats what propaganda does: it speak in absolutes, appeals to emotion (in this case fear) through exaggeration in this case.

Considering the Pope speaks to a variety of people, some of which will believe his words to the letter, and some others who wont try to interpret the reasonable advice behind those words (although I dont believe there is anything behind his words), it is justified to call it a lie, considering his responsibility towards the body of believers and his responsibility about the missions in Africa as well, where people are not in the least educated about AIDS and what is the main cause of it (not the condoms), and I doubt the Pope is either.

I don't understand why he can't just leave catholics alone...

[QUOTE="clayron"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] It can Spread Aids, Those aren't foolproof you know. I think he was saying that people think it's foolproof and therefore will have more "Happy Time" with one another. Which in turn increases the risk.

Snipes_2

ROFL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Idiots think that condoms are 100% effective, if that leads to them getting an STD that's their fault for being an idiot. Some people are willing to have sex with someone with AIDS, that's their choice and they will live with the consequences should the condom fail.

You have no objective proof that more people are having sex because of condoms, the truth is that people just like to have sex, always have and always will. The only difference is that people are being more open about it in today's society, doesn't mean there's a sex epidemic, god how I wish there was.

[QUOTE="ganon92"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol, People who feel insecure about their beliefs REALLY need to Shut Up about Catholicsm. After reading up on this guy, I know exactly why he attacks the Church, what an Imbecile.

Dark_Knight6

Being the genius that he is, comedic and otherwise, I too feel weird. It's just one of those things that you never. Ever.

The argument against condoms though was about AIDS.

Now you are just justifying the Pope's opinion against condoms in general. But that hardly justifies the misinformative nature of his words in regards to the relation of condoms and AIDS.

Once again, the topic is AIDS, not promiscuity, other STDs and pregnancy. Those can speak only in favour of supporting abstinence in general, not in favour of supporting that 'condoms (definitely) increase the problem' (AIDS).

Teenaged

On the subject of abstinance...there seems to be some opinion that it can and does work.....

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] It can Spread Aids, Those aren't foolproof you know. I think he was saying that people think it's foolproof and therefore will have more "Happy Time" with one another. Which in turn increases the risk.

Snipes_2

Thats what propaganda does: it speak in absolutes, appeals to emotion (in this case fear) through exaggeration in this case.

Considering the Pope speaks to a variety of people, some of which will believe his words to the letter, and some others who wont try to interpret the reasonable advice behind those words (although I dont believe there is anything behind his words), it is justified to call it a lie, considering his responsibility towards the body of believers and his responsibility about the missions in Africa as well, where people are not in the least educated about AIDS and what is the main cause of it (not the condoms), and I doubt the Pope is either.

Yes it has been proven wrong at the percentage of, what, 1%?

I still dont see how that justifies the Pope's words....

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Those are the Religious Views of another man. Of course he's going to speak out against the Church.

Snipes_2

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

And if you stay with the church you're going to criticize those who break away to make yourself look better. Relativistic logic fails every time.

I don't understand why he can't just leave catholics alone...

WiiMan21

[QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"]

[QUOTE="ganon92"] This is the first time I've ever heard Stephen Fry being called an imbecile, and it feels weird and unnatural.Snipes_2

Being the genius that he is, comedic and otherwise, I too feel weird. It's just one of those things that you never. Ever.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]The phrasing is still a massive and gross misrepresentation of the issue; ie propaganda.

Thats what propaganda does: it speak in absolutes, appeals to emotion (in this case fear) through exaggeration in this case.

Considering the Pope speaks to a variety of people, some of which will believe his words to the letter, and some others who wont try to interpret the reasonable advice behind those words (although I dont believe there is anything behind his words), it is justified to call it a lie, considering his responsibility towards the body of believers and his responsibility about the missions in Africa as well, where people are not in the least educated about AIDS and what is the main cause of it (not the condoms), and I doubt the Pope is either.

Teenaged

Yes it has been proven wrong at the percentage of, what, 1%?

I still dont see how that justifies the Pope's words....

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="clayron"] Ok, lets pop that bubble you are living in: 1. People are going to have sex. Period. 2. People with aids are going to have sex. 3. The use of a condom does not increase or decrease the occurrence of sex. 4. Latex condoms provide excellent protection against STDs, not perfect, but damn good. Polyurethane aren't as good, but offer some protection. 5. Sex without a condom offers no protection against STDs 6. If used correctly condoms are effective at preventing things (pregnancy and STD's) >90% of the time. Condoms to do not spread aids. People with aids spread aids.theone86

ROFL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Idiots think that condoms are 100% effective, if that leads to them getting an STD that's their fault for being an idiot. Some people are willing to have sex with someone with AIDS, that's their choice and they will live with the consequences should the condom fail.

You have no objective proof that more people are having sex because of condoms, the truth is that people just like to have sex, always have and always will. The only difference is that people are being more open about it in today's society, doesn't mean there's a sex epidemic, god how I wish there was.

And from what I found when I googled...he was mostly speaking against the reliance on condoms instead of abstinance. AIDS generally comes from promiscuous sexual encounters. Your point?

LJS9502_basic

On the subject of abstinance...there seems to be some opinion that it can and does work.....

LJS9502_basic

You have not provided a link that backed up your earlier statement as to what he said.

LJS9502_basic

On the subject of abstinance...there seems to be some opinion that it can and does work.....

LJS9502_basic

It only works if people adhere to it, and you cannot possibly think that getting everyone to abstain from having sex is feasible. Furthermore, the ones who don't abstain instead of having sex education and being told things like condoms aren't foolproof are simply told not to do it, and when they do engage in sexual relationships they do it irresponsibly. Abstinence education programs actually have a higher rate of pregnancy than sex education for this very reason. You CANNOT control other people's lives and expect them to live by your own values, what you can do is teach them how to live responsibly.

[QUOTE="WiiMan21"]

I don't understand why he can't just leave catholics alone...

LJS9502_basic

LOL, this has nothing to do with tolerance, if the Pope would shut up and preach to Catholics instead of trying to preach to the rest of the world everything would be peachy. It has nothing to do with tolerance of the religion itself, it has to do with the way people of that religion go about conducting themselves.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You can't tell me that more people aren't having sex because of those. They believe they won't get any disease or have a kid, that's been proven wrong. When more people engage in such acts the Chances of Getting a Disease or Pregnant begin to Rise. LJS9502_basic

Yes it has been proven wrong at the percentage of, what, 1%?

I still dont see how that justifies the Pope's words....

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

theone86

And if you stay with the church you're going to criticize those who break away to make yourself look better. Relativistic logic fails every time.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Proof that more frequent use of condoms leads to more frequent infections of age?

Yes it has been proven wrong at the percentage of, what, 1%?

I still dont see how that justifies the Pope's words....

Teenaged

I don't understand why he can't just leave catholics alone...

WiiMan21

I don't understand why the catholic church can't leave everyone else alone. Hell they as an institution even put their foot in polotics. Not to mention threatening someone because he says Jupiter has moons that orbit it. :lol:

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] If you knew someone had Aids you wouldn't have sex with them. By using one of those people think that prevents them. IT doesn't there's still a risk. I think the Pope is speaking about how it increases sexual activity. Not just the spread of Aids. IT does Spread disease because more and more people are having sex. When more people have Sex the chance of getting a Disease increases. Snipes_2

ROFL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Idiots think that condoms are 100% effective, if that leads to them getting an STD that's their fault for being an idiot. Some people are willing to have sex with someone with AIDS, that's their choice and they will live with the consequences should the condom fail.

You have no objective proof that more people are having sex because of condoms, the truth is that people just like to have sex, always have and always will. The only difference is that people are being more open about it in today's society, doesn't mean there's a sex epidemic, god how I wish there was.

Your idea is shot down when looking at first world countries like the United States as well as the ones in Europe the population growth is extremely low.. While in countries where condoms are either looked down upon or pretty much don't exist, the population and disease levels are much higher..

The point being is in countries like the US, people have access to condoms.. They have access to education they need to know before they committ.. And human nature pretty much garentees sooner or later they will committ.. Whilst in countries where safe sex practices are pretty much nonexistent and so is education, they are having numerous problems.. Africa is a poster child for this..

[I thought you said something about not making assumptions. Seems like you are the one interpreting his words. Unless you provide with some solid context which justifies his absolute statement I am not obligated to take your opinion into consideration.

It's not an assumption if it's the words he spoke dude. It's an assumption if you read more into the comments. Which I haven't done.:roll:

I never said that abstinence doesnt work (or even implied it) so I fail to see the need to post redundant to the discussion links. But they're fancy arent they?I believe abstinence came under fire in this thread.

I find it weird that you remembered to bring this up now after I stopped supporting with certainty that he said word for word the initial quote that I claimed came from his mouth, and after I provided with links of similar (less absolute but still absolute) quotes of him....

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Actually....and I quote....Although condoms do provide protection against getting pregnant, they also carry a 15% failure rate. Your 1% seems a bit low....Snipes_2

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

So they're only lies if you're not Catholic? Hooray for relativism!

Teenaged

So a person who speaks against the Catholic Church is never right and does it only to make themselves feel better....

:|

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] If you knew someone had Aids you wouldn't have sex with them. By using one of those people think that prevents them. IT doesn't there's still a risk. I think the Pope is speaking about how it increases sexual activity. Not just the spread of Aids. IT does Spread disease because more and more people are having sex. When more people have Sex the chance of getting a Disease increases. Snipes_2

ROFL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Idiots think that condoms are 100% effective, if that leads to them getting an STD that's their fault for being an idiot. Some people are willing to have sex with someone with AIDS, that's their choice and they will live with the consequences should the condom fail.

You have no objective proof that more people are having sex because of condoms, the truth is that people just like to have sex, always have and always will. The only difference is that people are being more open about it in today's society, doesn't mean there's a sex epidemic, god how I wish there was.

LOL, ad homenim, any other fallacies you'd like to pull out of your bag? Condoms have been around for decades now, you're showing correlation, not causation, and a flimsy correlation at that.

It seems that failure rate depends highly on usage and not condoms themselves...

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Actually....and I quote....Although condoms do provide protection against getting pregnant, they also carry a 15% failure rate. Your 1% seems a bit low....Snipes_2

Sex is a natural action of life.. Its silly to some how expect for people to stop.. Absitence movements have by and large been seen as a failure.. Infact safe sex education pretty much already teaches you what the benefits of absitence are, and long and behold.. They are hardly followed..

1) It's not an assumption if it's the words he spoke dude. It's an assumption if you read more into the comments. Which I haven't done.:roll:

2) believe abstinence came under fire in this thread.

3) Actually you provided someone else's words...not his except for a small out of context snippet which is irrelevant without context.

LJS9502_basic

2) Not by me.

3) Like I said show us how the context here matters. Provide it. And let us know how it justifies his absurd claim. Simple, no?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

It only works if people adhere to it, and you cannot possibly think that getting everyone to abstain from having sex is feasible. Furthermore, the ones who don't abstain instead of having sex education and being told things like condoms aren't foolproof are simply told not to do it, and when they do engage in sexual relationships they do it irresponsibly. Abstinence education programs actually have a higher rate of pregnancy than sex education for this very reason. You CANNOT control other people's lives and expect them to live by your own values, what you can do is teach them how to live responsibly.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="WiiMan21"]

I don't understand why he can't just leave catholics alone...

theone86

LOL, this has nothing to do with tolerance, if the Pope would shut up and preach to Catholics instead of trying to preach to the rest of the world everything would be peachy. It has nothing to do with tolerance of the religion itself, it has to do with the way people of that religion go about conducting themselves.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]It seems that failure rate depends highly on usage and not condoms themselves...

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

It seems that failure rate depends highly on usage and not condoms themselves...

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]It seems that failure rate depends highly on usage and not condoms themselves...

sSubZerOo

Sex is a natural action of life.. Its silly to some how expect for people to stop.. Absitence movements have by and large been seen as a failure.. Infact safe sex education pretty much already teaches you what the benefits of absitence are, and long and behold.. They are hardly followed..