The Gamespot Gun Control Debate

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

I don't believe that average citizens in any country are intelligent or responsible enough to have the right to bare arms. Just think, the people you see on youtube doing silly things and getting hurt playing with guns aren't outliers; they are just unlucky enough to have been caught on camera.

thegerg

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

[QUOTE="thegerg"][QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

I don't believe that average citizens in any country are intelligent or responsible enough to have the right to bare arms. Just think, the people you see on youtube doing silly things and getting hurt playing with guns aren't outliers; they are just unlucky enough to have been caught on camera.

Leejjohno

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"] Keep in mind that those agents of the state that are armed (cops and soldiers) are average citizens too, not some exceptionally intelligent beings. thegerg

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] Good to know. What other things should people not be allowed to do because they are not intelligent or responsible enough? sonicare

Drive or join armed forces for a start.

Responsibility should be proven, not assumed.

A committee could work but I can imagine it being abused. Appointed officials could be over-burdened.

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"] Keep in mind that those agents of the state that are armed (cops and soldiers) are average citizens too, not some exceptionally intelligent beings. thegerg

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

That was my first thought, but assuming they are trained appropriately then I say it falls in their favour.

For the record I have often argued that soldiers can be pretty irresponsible at times but I would trust a trained soldier with a gun more than somebody who hasn't had that experience. Common sense really.

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

I don't believe that average citizens in any country are intelligent or responsible enough to have the right to bare arms. Just think, the people you see on youtube doing silly things and getting hurt playing with guns aren't outliers; they are just unlucky enough to have been caught on camera.

Leejjohno

Drive or join armed forces for a start.

Responsibility should be proven, not assumed.

You can be a responsible gun owner without having military experience. I know because when I went on the shooting range, I didn't act like a total irresponsible jerkhole. Instead, I followed procedure and relied on the experience on other adults and so did many other teens and young adults. You learn through experience, but you are responsible because you are.

Also the military isn't perfect or the epitome of responsible gun ownership. I don't mean to discredit those in uniform but they're also people who can be prone to make mistakes and irresponsible decisions.

Edit: It's not hard to fire a gun. It does take practice to aim correctly and even then, that's not hard. Firing a gun isn't rocket science, it's more like putting a square into a squarish hole. Again, you can be a responsible person without having to join the armed forces or whatever.

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] Good to know. What other things should people not be allowed to do because they are not intelligent or responsible enough? leviathan91

Drive or join armed forces for a start.

Responsibility should be proven, not assumed.

You can be a responsible gun owner without having military experience. I know because when I went on the shooting range, I didn't act like a total irresponsible jerkhole. Instead, I followed procedure and relied on the experience on other adults and so did many other teens and young adults. You learn through experience, but you are responsible because you are.

Also the military isn't perfect or the epitome of responsible gun ownership. I don't mean to discredit those in uniform but they're also people who can be prone to make mistakes and irresponsible decisions.

Very true, but nobody knows how you will conduct yourself until you demonstrate that you are responsible. That is part of the problem.

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"] Keep in mind that those agents of the state that are armed (cops and soldiers) are average citizens too, not some exceptionally intelligent beings. Kamekazi_69

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

But wouldn't you trust the cop with a gun licence over somebody with no proven history at all? Not saying they are infallible.

They could make it so that you need insurance on a weapon, and your premium scales with your potential risk of accident or whatever. Probably wont be a popular idea but i'd say that could make a difference.

[QUOTE="Kamekazi_69"][QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

Then perhaps they have proven themselves. But what about the 'everyone else' that we all know are the problem?

Leejjohno

But wouldn't you trust the cop with a gun licence over somebody with no proven history at all? Not saying they are infallible.

They could make it so that you need insurance on a weapon, and your premium scales with your potential risk of accident or whatever. Probably wont be a popular idea but i'd say that could make a difference.

Drive or join armed forces for a start.

Responsibility should be proven, not assumed.

Leejjohno

That's nice in theory, but how do you go about implementing this as a policy?

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

There really is no solution to this gun problem the US has. The only thing that can really be done is to decrease violence in general by increasing mental illness awareness, improving the economy, decreasing poverty, and I guess just increasing the overall quality of life. I am however one of those people that believe no one does anything "bad" without reason.

How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

Yusuke420

Good.

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

Drive or join armed forces for a start.

Responsibility should be proven, not assumed.

Palantas

That's nice in theory, but how do you go about implementing this as a policy?

Well my only answer to that is ask a politician because I'm not sure of the ins and outs of american politics. However I don't personally think gun laws can change so drastically without some sort of government reform but that's just my opinion.

Well my only answer to that is ask a politician because I'm not sure of the ins and outs of american politics. However I don't personally think gun laws can change so drastically without some sort of government reform but that's just my opinion.

Leejjohno

No no no, I don't legally. I mean as a program. Let's say you have your own country of 100 people. What sort of policy do you create that proves peoples' responsibility?

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="Kamekazi_69"] Not really a good way of putting it. Look at the dozens of claims and incidents polices officers committed with fire arms.ScorpionTroll

But wouldn't you trust the cop with a gun licence over somebody with no proven history at all? Not saying they are infallible.

They could make it so that you need insurance on a weapon, and your premium scales with your potential risk of accident or whatever. Probably wont be a popular idea but i'd say that could make a difference.

Yes.

[QUOTE="ScorpionTroll"]

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

But wouldn't you trust the cop with a gun licence over somebody with no proven history at all? Not saying they are infallible.

They could make it so that you need insurance on a weapon, and your premium scales with your potential risk of accident or whatever. Probably wont be a popular idea but i'd say that could make a difference.

Leejjohno

Yes.

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

Yusuke420

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

Well my only answer to that is ask a politician because I'm not sure of the ins and outs of american politics. However I don't personally think gun laws can change so drastically without some sort of government reform but that's just my opinion.

Palantas

No no no, I don't legally. I mean as a program. Let's say you have your own country of 100 people. What sort of policy do you create that proves peoples' responsibility?

Well I like the required gun insurance idea for that example but it's not going to be popular.

I would model it in pretty much the exact same way as car insurance where people considered high risk for firearms incidents get higher premiums. Risk calculated based on type of weapon, location of the individual, history, job title, marital status, age, firearms experience etc.

You can even insentivise responsible behaviour with increased discount after each term without incident. It's a fleeting, idealistic idea but...

The policy would be that to be refused insurance is to be refused a licence by me. It isn't perfect but what is? It's got to be better than the current system.

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

[QUOTE="ScorpionTroll"] You know street cops shoot paper targets like most other people, right?

ScorpionTroll

Yes.

They take tests, are vetted and go through more detailed checks than ordinary individuals. That makes them above average in most cases; not sure about exceptionally qualified though.

I'll say it again, the idea that guns make you safer is absurd. They don't. The higher the availability of guns, the more gun deaths there will be. Maybe in specific or individual cases they can protect, but if you look at the aggregate data, they don't. Countries that dont have accessible guns, have signficantly lower gun deaths. Now certainly that ignores a lot of other factors such as societal make up, etc, but the general point likely still stands.

But gun control isnt about whether they make you safer or not. It's about rights. There are lots of things that we do, that are bad for us and for others. At some point, we have to decide whether we want to be able to have that choice or have someone who "knows better" make it for us.

As a side note, these horrific sensational shootings are a negligible contribution to the number of gun deaths in the country per year. You'd have a similar chance of being killed by a shark attack, terrorist attack, or something along those lines. Most gun deaths happen in domestic violence, gang violence, etc. Most of the time the shooter knows the victim, and its not some random act of violence. Doesnt make it better, but perhaps gun control advocates should focus on that instead the rarer occurrences.

sonicare

Well I like the required gun insurance idea for that example but it's not going to be popular.

I would model it in pretty much the exact same way where people considered high risk for firearms incidents get higher premiums. Risk calculated based on type of weapon, location of the individual, history, job title, marital status, age, firearms experience etc.

You can even insentivise responsible behaviour with increased discount after each term without incident. It's a fleeting, idealistic idea but...

The policy would be that to be refused insurance is to be refused a licence by me. It isn't perfect but what is? It's got to be better than the current system.

Leejjohno

Here are a couple issue I have with that:

1. Anytime you create expensive supplementaries to an item, you create a tax on poorer people. So now only wealthy to middle income persons can enjoy a Constitutional right. (Driving a car isn't guaranteed by the Constitution; bearing arms is.)
2. This would create a new market, which benefits the rich, and would be subject to manipulation.

I might be able to go along with this, given the following conditions:

1. There are price caps on insurance premiums.
2. Training certifications significantly lower premiums from the default rate.

Even then, this makes me nervous in that it gives the Left an additional tool to disarm people. They don't need to restrict firearms or ammunition; they just need to (legally or through the market) push insurance premiums so high as to make firearms unaffordable to the general public.

I'll say it again, the idea that guns make you safer is absurd. They don't. The higher the availability of guns, the more gun deaths there will be. Maybe in specific or individual cases they can protect, but if you look at the aggregate data, they don't.

sonicare

If this is true, in a given area we should see a noticeable increase in crime when gun laws are relaxed, and a decrease in crime when gun laws are tightened, right?

I don't know about the general public, but personally owning firearms make me safer.

our schools need to be the #1 priority on everything we fund, what's in those schools are our future.

I think teachers and Administrators need to be Trained, armed and evaluated every 6 months.

If the teachers had been armed the shooter would have been stopped.

having a place so important as a school be a "gun free" zone opens them up to disaster because no one is there to stop the attack, and now people want to twist this as a way to make our whole Nation into a "gun free" zone. What will happen then?

I think teachers and Administrators need to be Trained, armed and evaluated every 6 months.

If the teachers had been armed the shooter would have been stopped.

Sphensen

I don't agree with this. People don't go into the teaching profession to operate firearms. If you want protection in schools, hire private security.

[QUOTE="ScorpionTroll"]

[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

Yes.

Leejjohno

They take tests, are vetted and go through more detailed checks than ordinary individuals. That makes them above average in most cases; not sure about exceptionally qualified though.

Is there no way to rid the world of guns? if all the gun manufactuers suddenly stopped making ammo, how long would it be before all the it just stops. Guns have such a bloody history, war has grown from field battles where w few hundreds died, to WW2 where 15 million people lost their lives. How much blood has to be shed before we stop doing this to ourselves?Yusuke420

And before we had guns, military castes ruled society. That would be fantastic for me, so I agree: Firearms need to go away.

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

sonicare

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

I'll say it again, the idea that guns make you safer is absurd. They don't. The higher the availability of guns, the more gun deaths there will be. Maybe in specific or individual cases they can protect, but if you look at the aggregate data, they don't.

Palantas

If this is true, in a given area we should see a noticeable increase in crime when gun laws are relaxed, and a decrease in crime when gun laws are tightened, right?

I don't know about the general public, but personally owning firearms make me safer.

Feeling safeer=/=being safer. Having a gun as response=/= having less likehood of reveiving a gunshot.curono

Well, I disagree, but I'm sure you're an expert on all things related to firearms. I only spent a decade in the Army and the last two years in contract security, so you probably know more than me.

I don't believe that average citizens in any country are intelligent or responsible enough to have the right to bare arms. Just think, the people you see on youtube doing silly things and getting hurt playing with guns aren't outliers; they are just unlucky enough to have been caught on camera.

Leejjohno

That's great. I'm glad you weren't around when America was formed. If everybody thought like you, it never would have happened.

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

Yusuke420

You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.

Is there no way to rid the world of guns? if all the gun manufactuers suddenly stopped making ammo, how long would it be before all the it just stops. Guns have such a bloody history, war has grown from field battles where w few hundreds died, to WW2 where 15 million people lost their lives. How much blood has to be shed before we stop doing this to ourselves?Yusuke420

Rule of Acquisition #34- War is good for business.

[QUOTE="curono"]Feeling safeer=/=being safer. Having a gun as response=/= having less likehood of reveiving a gunshot.Palantas

Well, I disagree, but I'm sure you're an expert on all things related to firearms. I only spent a decade in the Army and the last two years in contract security, so you probably know more than me.

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

hartsickdiscipl

You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="curono"]Feeling safeer=/=being safer. Having a gun as response=/= having less likehood of reveiving a gunshot.curono

Well, I disagree, but I'm sure you're an expert on all things related to firearms. I only spent a decade in the Army and the last two years in contract security, so you probably know more than me.

What is the saying? Correlation does not imply causation. I'd like to see a map of how many of those shootings happened in urban versus rural areas. There are many other factors that could lead to there being more gun violence in the southern states. Now how many of the horrific "mass shootings" this year have happened in the south?

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

Yusuke420

You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.

Did he use the gun while you were there?

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]

So I guess those of us who will neven own a gun have to live in fear of other people who choose to love these things. I once met a guy who had a loaded AK47 in his living room, it was our first time meeting and he showed it to me, needless to say it was the last time we spoke. How people could keep these instruments of murder just lying around the house scares the crap out of me.

Yusuke420

You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.

I should have said "dsiplayed", he didn't fire the weapon, but it's a AK man that type of stuff scares the $hit out of me just looking at it.

I should have said "dsiplayed", he didn't fire the weapon, but it's a AK man that type of stuff scares the $hit out of me just looking at it.

Yusuke420

Grow a sack.

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="Palantas"]

Well, I disagree, but I'm sure you're an expert on all things related to firearms. I only spent a decade in the Army and the last two years in contract security, so you probably know more than me.

hartsickdiscipl

What is the saying? Correlation does not imply causation. I'd like to see a map of how many of those shootings happened in urban versus rural areas. There are many other factors that could lead to there being more gun violence in the southern states. Now how many of the horrific "mass shootings" this year have happened in the south?

You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.hartsickdiscipl

Is America so completely screwed up that people don't even feel safe in their own homes without an automatic weapon close at hand?
If so, I might just change my mind about the whole gun control issue.

Don't get me wrong - gun restrictions/bans are ideal in most developed countries - but the gun advocates in these thread keep making me think that living in the US is twice as deadly as Bosnia and Syria combined. If that's the case, then by all means stay armed, and pray that you can one day migrate to one of the many nations where people don't have to worry about such things.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="curono"] Army situation=/= civilian situation. I´m no expert but look at this. http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/uncommon-sense/question-1466485/?page=2&link=ibaf&q=&imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_m2TQKCuVrWo/TTA8qvEZcJI/AAAAAAAAB50/ZL_kwfen2bg/s1600/preventionEDIT-thumb-600x463-40174.jpg The south has more gun related deaths. Guess what. South is far more loose on gun control. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/20/gun-violence.html PErhaps I'm being naive, but It seems that the more guns are there, the more gunshots appear to exist. Care to retort?curono

What is the saying? Correlation does not imply causation. I'd like to see a map of how many of those shootings happened in urban versus rural areas. There are many other factors that could lead to there being more gun violence in the southern states. Now how many of the horrific "mass shootings" this year have happened in the south?

Relation without proven causation is irrelevant. I tend to think that those statistics have more to do with educational challenges related to urban environments in the south. Particularly associated with certain ethnic groups.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]You know what's great about that guy's house? If someone breaks in and threatens him and/or his family, he can deal with the problem without having to hope he can sneak a call to 911 and wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up. He can defend his own damn home and life.Planeforger

Is America so completely screwed up that people don't even feel safe in their own homes without an automatic weapon close at hand?
If so, I might just change my mind about the whole gun control issue.

Don't get me wrong - gun restrictions/bans are ideal in most developed countries - but the gun advocates in these thread keep making me think that living in the US is twice as deadly as Bosnia and Syria combined. If that's the case, then by all means stay armed, and pray that you can one day migrate to one of the many nations where people don't have to worry about such things.

The 2nd Amendment isn't primarily about home defense. It just so happens that having a gun helps out there.

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]

I should have said "dsiplayed", he didn't fire the weapon, but it's a AK man that type of stuff scares the $hit out of me just looking at it.

hartsickdiscipl

Grow a sack.