There is one little simple question atheism can't answer...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

This is one of the reasons why religion holds back progress. Science looks for explanations for the world and universe around us, religion does not. If certain religious people had their way we would stop looking for answers because all we ever need to know is contained in an ancient text. I would prefer that we continue to look for answers rather then give up and say a magic being did it all.

The something from nothing argument also applies to god, you claim that god has no substance, I agree with you on this and so would most athiests.

tenaka2

For instance fiction literature is not seeking to progress science so you are saying it's holding back science. Hockey is holding back science. Etc. That does not logically follow. Only thing that can hold back scientific progression is something impedeing it. Not something that evolves outside the field.

Christian groups attempt to get creationism into the classroom all the time, they deny evolution and teach young people that scientists that study evolution and biology are wrong. How is this not holding back science?

Where did God come from?DavidianMH

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]What a vague and inflammatory sentence. Care to elaborate?LJS9502_basic

See now that is a generalization. Most Christians accept evolution as the steps we see to how humans evolved etc. And as a group Christianity is not trying to stop evolution being taught.LJS9502_basic

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-still-bel_n_799078.html

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="xaos"] Happy to oblige; however, I'll grant that the killing of scientists is generally pretty far back in the past, at least as an organized religious undertaking, so that part is unsupportablexaos

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="xaos"] Happy to oblige; however, I'll grant that the killing of scientists is generally pretty far back in the past, at least as an organized religious undertaking, so that part is unsupportablexaos

Anyway it's a group...it's not that religion in general is anti science.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

See now that is a generalization. Most Christians accept evolution as the steps we see to how humans evolved etc. And as a group Christianity is not trying to stop evolution being taught.tenaka2

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

See now that is a generalization. Most Christians accept evolution as the steps we see to how humans evolved etc. And as a group Christianity is not trying to stop evolution being taught.LJS9502_basic

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

See now that is a generalization. Most Christians accept evolution as the steps we see to how humans evolved etc. And as a group Christianity is not trying to stop evolution being taught.LJS9502_basic

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

40% of American believe the world is less then 10000 years old. This conflicts with multiple areas of science including evolution.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

tenaka2

40% of American believe the world is less then 10000 years old. This conflicts with multiple areas of science including evolution.

who says you have to agree with everything science says to enjoy its benefits or prevent its progress?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

40% of Americans believe in creationism, this is not a small number.

Anew Gallup poll, released Dec. 17, reveals that 40 percent of Americans still believe that humans were created by God within the last 10,000 years. This number is slightly down from a previous high of 47 percent in 1993 and 1999.

Another 38 percent of respondents believe that humans have evolved from more basic organisms but with God playing a role in the process.

tenaka2

40% of American believe the world is less then 10000 years old. This conflicts with multiple areas of science including evolution.

And that would be : How was the very first essence, ( or the thing that started it all ) was created? It's a scientific fact that every material, every substance needs a source, cause, something to be made from it. seriously all of this can't be made from nothingness, that's not logical and not scientifical either. ( Before you mention it, God himself as theists know him ( it ) , doesn't need cause , because he ( it ) is not made of substance. ) I personally believe in Big Bang Theory . But that theory explains how the universe was expanded, not how it was originally created. And also there's still this question remained : where all the material that makes up the universe came from? even if we find an answer for this, we can still ask the same question about that answer and so on. Sign-Number-Two

Athiests do believe that there may be natural phenomenom at work in the universe that can't be easily understood by mankind at this time (due to the complex magnitude of the universe itself).

That doesn't mean it has anything to do with God, magic or the Force. It just means that, at this time, mankind doesn't have the tools or understanding to figure it out.

Most people believed that earth was flat at one time until someone actually sailed off into the horizon one day...

I think some people need to understand that belief and faith are not the same things (although they are related concepts).

Belief is something you regard to be true, be it irrational or based on some form of evidence; faith requires belief in something that cannot be proven, and is often only promised after your life has ended.

Atheists believe that the world around is all there is, most because it's what can be seen and proven to exist - They have no set code to be faithful to. Christians (for example) have faith in their God, believing that being faithful to Christian doctrine will save them from eternal damnation.

All faith requires belief, but not all beliefs require faith (belief in equal rights doesn't require faith, for example).

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Yes but creationism can coincide with evolution so it's not denying evolution....

LJS9502_basic

In other words, things would have opperated exactly the same without this "guiding force" you're trying to invoke, so the only thing you're doing is adding a completely uncessary step which happens to be the most complicated thing imaginable which you have no explination for nor evidence.

Not only that, but creationism does contradict our scientific understanding at multiple levels, as someone said, creationists believe the earth is under 10,000 years old. Also, creationist believe dinosaurs were around at the same time as humans were, etc.

I'm not seeing how answering a question like that becomes the responsibility of atheists.....? What does not believing in God have to do with knowing where 'it all' came from?

YellowOneKinobi

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] No it can not. How can they?

KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] No it can not. How can they?

KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

40% of American believe the world is less then 10000 years old. This conflicts with multiple areas of science including evolution.

LJS9502_basic

Anyone who believes the world is less then 10,000 years old will be unable to studygeology, astronomy, evolutionary biology, paleontology, archaeology, etc.

If 40% of people in america are indoctrinated to believe that these sciences are false it puts a serious dent into the number of potential people researching such things.

nI don't know, maybe Christianity says that God controls everything with minute detail , but Judaism certainly doesn't. and just because someone believes in creationism doesn't mean he can't enjoy the beneifts of science , Darkman2007

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

40% of American believe the world is less then 10000 years old. This conflicts with multiple areas of science including evolution.

tenaka2

Anyone who believes the world is less then 10,000 years old will be unable to studygeology, astronomy, evolutionary biology, paleontology, archaeology, etc.

If 40% of people in america are indoctrinated to believe that these sciences are false it puts a serious dent into the number of potential people researching such things.

Religion topics should be treated as troll topics. That, or GS needs an official Religion Forum.

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Exactly why can't it? Evolution shows ups the steps toward humans....that doesn't say a guiding force couldn't be behind it.

LJS9502_basic

No creationism does NOT contradict science.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

No creationism does NOT contradict science.

xaos

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Exactly why can't it? Evolution shows ups the steps toward humans....that doesn't say a guiding force couldn't be behind it.

Darkman2007

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Anyone who believes the world is less then 10,000 years old will be unable to studygeology, astronomy, evolutionary biology, paleontology, archaeology, etc.

If 40% of people in america are indoctrinated to believe that these sciences are false it puts a serious dent into the number of potential people researching such things.

LJS9502_basic

I do agree with your points, there is no conflict between a belief in god and understanding science. However a lot of Christian group especially in America are against the teaching of evolution in schools and want creationism in schools as well as or instead in science classes.

A lot of these groups have a good amount of political power and funding and an agenda.

While I understand that you personally don't hold these views I think its a little dishonest to pretend it doesn't exist or that if allowed these groups (which are large) do not try to impede science.

Creationism ignores science until a group of Priests realize how silly they are and then they change their "laws" to account for the inconsistency.

(See "free-will" for an example)

God was all-powerful and inffalible until everyone realized people did whatever they wanted to do. Then all of a sudden God gave us all free-will... after a group of Theologians had a meeting about it.

Excuse me? You just ignored everything I addressed. You said "Evolution shows ups the steps toward humans....that doesn't say a guiding force couldn't be behind it." and I just explained why that's completely unnecessary. It does directly have something to do with the two co-existing, please address what I've said if you think that they can. It didn't all just randomly happen, you're only making yourself look vastly ignorant of nearly every field of science by saying that.KeitekeTokage

We weren't discussing what was necessary or not. The initial statement was that religion and science can't co-exist...not sure if you said it or not but you clearly fall on the side that doesn't believe science and religion can co-exist going by your posts.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Anyone who believes the world is less then 10,000 years old will be unable to studygeology, astronomy, evolutionary biology, paleontology, archaeology, etc.

If 40% of people in america are indoctrinated to believe that these sciences are false it puts a serious dent into the number of potential people researching such things.

tenaka2

I do agree with your points, there is no conflict between a belief in god and understanding science. However a lot of Christian group especially in America are against the teaching of evolution in schools and want creationism in schools as well as or instead in science classes.

A lot of these groups have a good amount of political power and funding and an agenda.

While I understand that you personally don't hold these views I think its a little dishonest to pretend it doesn't exist or that if allowed these groups (which are large) do not try to impede science.

These groups aren't impeding science though.....or if they are...you haven't provided any proof that any scientific discipline has been shut down because of them.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

This is one of the reasons why religion holds back progress. Science looks for explanations for the world and universe around us, religion does not. If certain religious people had their way we would stop looking for answers because all we ever need to know is contained in an ancient text. I would prefer that we continue to look for answers rather then give up and say a magic being did it all.

The something from nothing argument also applies to god, you claim that god has no substance, I agree with you on this and so would most athiests.

LJS9502_basic

For instance fiction literature is not seeking to progress science so you are saying it's holding back science. Hockey is holding back science. Etc. That does not logically follow. Only thing that can hold back scientific progression is something impedeing it. Not something that evolves outside the field.

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

No creationism does NOT contradict science.

LJS9502_basic

creationism(cre·a·tion·ism)

Pronunciation:/krēˈāSHəˌnizəm, / noun

the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/creationism?region=us

_____________

Evolution is a scientific theory, ergo creationism currently contradicts science.

You probably use the definition of the first sentence of the Wikipedia article.

Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

This is one of the reasons why religion holds back progress. Science looks for explanations for the world and universe around us, religion does not. If certain religious people had their way we would stop looking for answers because all we ever need to know is contained in an ancient text. I would prefer that we continue to look for answers rather then give up and say a magic being did it all.

The something from nothing argument also applies to god, you claim that god has no substance, I agree with you on this and so would most athiests.

HoolaHoopMan

For instance fiction literature is not seeking to progress science so you are saying it's holding back science. Hockey is holding back science. Etc. That does not logically follow. Only thing that can hold back scientific progression is something impedeing it. Not something that evolves outside the field.

Pronunciation:/krēˈāSHəˌnizəm, / noun

the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.


_____________

Evolution is a scientific theory, ergo creationism currently contradicts science.

You probably use the definition of the first sentence of the Wikipedia article.

Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being

Teenaged

Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. By 1950, Pope Pius XII agreed to the academic freedom to study the scientific implications of evolution, so long as Catholic dogma is not violated. Today, the Church's unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God.

/quote

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I do agree with your points, there is no conflict between a belief in god and understanding science. However a lot of Christian group especially in America are against the teaching of evolution in schools and want creationism in schools as well as or instead in science classes.

A lot of these groups have a good amount of political power and funding and an agenda.

While I understand that you personally don't hold these views I think its a little dishonest to pretend it doesn't exist or that if allowed these groups (which are large) do not try to impede science.

LJS9502_basic

These groups aren't impeding science though.....or if they are...you haven't provided any proof that any scientific discipline has been shut down because of them.

I am talking about science in general and not a particular study that got closed down, I am talking about a society losing scientific potential due to religious beliefs. If a section of society is restricted from science due to religious belief then the society as a whole suffers.

As a specific case I would guess stem cell research but something tells me you already have considered this.

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Excuse me? You just ignored everything I addressed. You said "Evolution shows ups the steps toward humans....that doesn't say a guiding force couldn't be behind it." and I just explained why that's completely unnecessary. It does directly have something to do with the two co-existing, please address what I've said if you think that they can. It didn't all just randomly happen, you're only making yourself look vastly ignorant of nearly every field of science by saying that.LJS9502_basic

We weren't discussing what was necessary or not. The initial statement was that religion and science can't co-exist...not sure if you said it or not but you clearly fall on the side that doesn't believe science and religion can co-exist going by your posts.

I am talking about science in general and not a particular study that got closed down, I am talking about a society losing scientific potential due to religious beliefs. If a section of society is restricted from science due to religious belief then the society as a whole suffers.

As a specific case I would guess stem cell research but something tells me you already have considered this.

tenaka2

how many Athiests have tried to get me to somehow denounce religion , both as a whole, or the Jewish religion (ie my religion) specifically ? plenty how many times have I personally told Atheists to believe in God or any organised religion? not even a single time.Darkman2007

That's irrelevant considering I was talking about the public sector, as in teaching kids LIES like creationism. You being lectured to by Mr. Joe Atheist on the street corner isn't even relevant.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Pronunciation:/krēˈāSHəˌnizəm, / noun

the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.


_____________

Evolution is a scientific theory, ergo creationism currently contradicts science.

You probably use the definition of the first sentence of the Wikipedia article.

Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being

LJS9502_basic

Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. By 1950, Pope Pius XII agreed to the academic freedom to study the scientific implications of evolution, so long as Catholic dogma is not violated. Today, the Church's unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God.

/quote

So if I believed that insible blue sloths created the universe from nothing, and then when I heard about evolution I refined my beliefs to be that invisible blue sloths guided evolution, is that co-existing with the science? Or is that just riding on the back of science like mole and waiting for it to make the discoveries for me so I can then agree but also add that my invisible blue sloths were behind it, while simeltaneously claiming that these sloths suspend the physical laws of the universe I'm claiming to be in agreement with on semi regular occassion to preform miracles among other things but that science will never be able to test that?

No actually they don't. Religion makes claims that have absolutely no scientific backing that it postulates to be true. For instance the seven day creation of the Bible is in stark contradiction to science, creation of plants before there's sunlight to allow for photosynthesis is in direct contradiction of science. Humans walking on water is in direct contradiction with science. A global flood is in direct contradiction with science and on and on. These are supernatural claims made by religion that science says are physical impossible, this is not co-existing, this is a complete disagreement on how laws operate. What these are, are extra supernatural claims made by religion that are not supported by anything other than a holy book. I'm tearing up on the Bible here for starters. Also, what do you think randomly happened? Please enlighten us.KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Pronunciation:/krēˈāSHəˌnizəm, / noun

the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.


_____________

Evolution is a scientific theory, ergo creationism currently contradicts science.

You probably use the definition of the first sentence of the Wikipedia article.

Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being

LJS9502_basic

Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. By 1950, Pope Pius XII agreed to the academic freedom to study the scientific implications of evolution, so long as Catholic dogma is not violated. Today, the Church's unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God.

/quote

While we cant say that science and religion cant coexist, in order to have a reconciliation you must also have compromise.

So while you can sort of... "merge" the two in a reconciliating theory (such as evolutionary creation) I dont think a scientist would approve of such a direction and I believe the opinion of scientists matters more to determine whether or not science is by default compatible with creationism.

Therefore, creationism, currently, is not in tune with science, but it can be in tune with it only after some compromise; one that many would say is so great that its no longer science. And thats my opinion too.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I am talking about science in general and not a particular study that got closed down, I am talking about a society losing scientific potential due to religious beliefs. If a section of society is restricted from science due to religious belief then the society as a whole suffers.

As a specific case I would guess stem cell research but something tells me you already have considered this.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I am talking about science in general and not a particular study that got closed down, I am talking about a society losing scientific potential due to religious beliefs. If a section of society is restricted from science due to religious belief then the society as a whole suffers.

As a specific case I would guess stem cell research but something tells me you already have considered this.

LJS9502_basic

I have backed it up, if 40% of people in america think the world was created less then 10,000 years ago it means that 40% of Americans can't study a vast range of scientific disciplines.

I don't understand why your not accepting that figure... can you imagine if 100% of americans thought the world was less then 10,000 years old? The detriment to science would be absolute, obviously 40% is still a massive number 120 million + people.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] how many Athiests have tried to get me to somehow denounce religion , both as a whole, or the Jewish religion (ie my religion) specifically ? plenty how many times have I personally told Atheists to believe in God or any organised religion? not even a single time.HoolaHoopMan

That's irrelevant considering I was talking about the public sector, as in teaching kids LIES like creationism. You being lectured to by Mr. Joe Atheist on the street corner isn't even relevant.

So if I believed that insible blue sloths created the universe from nothing, and then when I heard about evolution I refined my beliefs to be that invisible blue sloths guided evolution, is that co-existing with the science? Or is that just riding on the back of science like mole and waiting for it to make the discoveries for me so I can then agree but also add that my invisible blue sloths were behind it, while simeltaneously claiming that these sloths suspend the physical laws of the universe I'm claiming to be in agreement with on semi regular occassion to preform miracles among other things but that science will never be able to test that?

KeitekeTokage

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] how many Athiests have tried to get me to somehow denounce religion , both as a whole, or the Jewish religion (ie my religion) specifically ? plenty how many times have I personally told Atheists to believe in God or any organised religion? not even a single time.Darkman2007

That's irrelevant considering I was talking about the public sector, as in teaching kids LIES like creationism. You being lectured to by Mr. Joe Atheist on the street corner isn't even relevant.

It isn't an opinion or a point of view when the age of the Earth and origin of life are involved, there's an answer to both. Creation and ID are complete lies, unfounded, and unscientific. I have no qualm calling such "beliefs" lies as they deserve no respect.