We Are All Born Atheist

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Again, that depends on the definition. I'm not going to argue about the definition anymore, as we will just keep going in circles.

However, do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? That's pretty much the TC's argument, as the definition he is using for atheism is that, regardless of whether that's the definition you use.

SgtKevali

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about a nonbelief, whatever that is.

Do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? As in, the baby has no position on the matter. Do you believe that the baby starts out without a position on the matter?

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No I don't agree. I don't believe a baby has a belief or non belief since they are incapable of thought process along those lines....LJS9502_basic

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about a nonbelief, whatever that is.

Do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? As in, the baby has no position on the matter. Do you believe that the baby starts out without a position on the matter?

Maybe all of that "Goo Goo Gaa Gaa" stuff is code for "God? God? Bad! Bad!"

:|

*leaves thread in shame*

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No I don't agree. I don't believe a baby has a belief or non belief since they are incapable of thought process along those lines....LJS9502_basic

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about a nonbelief, whatever that is.

Do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? As in, the baby has no position on the matter. Do you believe that the baby starts out without a position on the matter?

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about a nonbelief, whatever that is.

Do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? As in, the baby has no position on the matter. Do you believe that the baby starts out without a position on the matter?

SgtKevali

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

Belief doesn't require thought alone.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about a nonbelief, whatever that is.

Do you agree that a baby starts out without a belief in a god? As in, the baby has no position on the matter. Do you believe that the baby starts out without a position on the matter?

SgtKevali

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Again no. Belief or non belief require THOUGHT. A baby cannot do that.poptart

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

SgtKevali

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

You can believe in something, you can not believe in something, but if you have no opinion or no idea about it doesn't mean that you don't believe. You can't believe in something you know nothing of, by definition of the word believe. He has no beliefs in God, which means he cannot "not believe".

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="poptart"]

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

LJS9502_basic

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

Aha, but the TC is essentially using the word atheist to mean not having a belief in a god, a form of which is having no position on the matter.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

SgtKevali

Aha, but the TC is essentially using the word atheist to mean not believing in a god, a form of which is having no position on the matter.

your brain is not fully formed when you're born so...yeah.

[QUOTE="BluRayHiDef"]

LJS9502_basic

disbelief in the existence of God or gods

I'm hoping that's the last time....

Completing your quotation for the last time:

Concise Oxford Dictionary: Disbelief in the existence of God or gods; Godlessness. f. Gk atheos without God

Webster's:Without a God; the belief that there is no God.

Have fun twisting this around again.

Goodnight.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Having no position does not mean atheist though....LJS9502_basic

Aha, but the TC is essentially using the word atheist to mean not believing in a god, a form of which is having no position on the matter.

Again, you're arguing about the definition of atheist. I've dropped that. I'm now talking about the IDEA that the TC is using as part of the definition of atheism.

Do you agree that a baby has no position on the matter whatsoever?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="BluRayHiDef"]

jimmyjammer69

disbelief in the existence of God or gods

I'm hoping that's the last time....

Completing your quotation for the last time:

Concise Oxford Dictionary: Disbelief in the existence of God or gods; Godlessness. f. Gk atheos without God

Webster's:Without a God; the belief that there is no God.

Have fun twisting this around again.

Goodnight.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Oxford Dictionay....Atheism

disbelief in the existence of God or gods

I'm hoping that's the last time....

LJS9502_basic

Completing your quotation for the last time:

Concise Oxford Dictionary: Disbelief in the existence of God or gods; Godlessness. f. Gk atheos without God

Webster's:Without a God; the belief that there is no God.

Have fun twisting this around again.

Goodnight.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Aha, but the TC is essentially using the word atheist to mean not believing in a god, a form of which is having no position on the matter.

SgtKevali

Again, you're arguing about the definition of atheist. I've dropped that. I'm now talking about the IDEA that the TC is using as part of the definition of atheism.

Do you agree that a baby has no position on the matter whatsoever?

He doesn't believe because he's in no position to believe in anything. That doesn't make them atheists since an atheist specifically doesn't believe in God.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No being atheist IS having a position on the matter.....bloodling

Again, you're arguing about the definition of atheist. I've dropped that. I'm now talking about the IDEA that the TC is using as part of the definition of atheism.

Do you agree that a baby has no position on the matter whatsoever?

He doesn't believe because he's in no position to believe in anything. That doesn't make them atheists since an atheist specifically doesn't believe in God.

You're arguing about the word atheist. I'm not arguing about that anymore.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

But having no position (not having a belief in a god), does not require thought.

SgtKevali

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

But you ascribed a label, when the only label you should really use is egocentric as that exemplifies the baby's incapacity to process any kind of information regarding the world and beyond. Plucking out labels (of which I assume there are many) and applying thembecauseof this inability is what doesn't make any sense.

I can't speak for all atheists, but as I had no concept of God or even self when I was born, I could not have been an atheist; I had nothing to not believe in.Theokhoth

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Again, you're arguing about the definition of atheist. I've dropped that. I'm now talking about the IDEA that the TC is using as part of the definition of atheism.

Do you agree that a baby has no position on the matter whatsoever?

SgtKevali

He doesn't believe because he's in no position to believe in anything. That doesn't make them atheists since an atheist specifically doesn't believe in God.

You're arguing about the word atheist. I'm not arguing about that anymore.

I'm not arguing, you would have to argue to answer to what I said.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]OMG. I can't believe you've done this again.:lol:

Completing your quotation for the last time:

Concise Oxford Dictionary: Disbelief in the existence of God or gods; Godlessness. f. Gk atheos without God

Webster's:Without a God; the belief that there is no God.

Have fun twisting this around again.

Goodnight.

jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="poptart"]

Trying to ascribe labels pertaining to the beliefs (or lack of) of a wholly egocentric being doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

poptart

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

But you ascribed a label, when the only label you should really use is egocentric as that exemplifies the baby's incapacity to process any kind of information regarding the world and beyond. Plucking out labels (of which I assume there are many) and applying thembecauseof this inability is what doesn't make any sense.

If that is his only label (his egocentrism), then the statement that he has no position on the matter is correct. Isn't it?

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

I did not ascribe labels to any beliefs. The question is simple: is having no position on the matter the state in which the baby is in?

SgtKevali

But you ascribed a label, when the only label you should really use is egocentric as that exemplifies the baby's incapacity to process any kind of information regarding the world and beyond. Plucking out labels (of which I assume there are many) and applying thembecauseof this inability is what doesn't make any sense.

If that is his only label (his egocentrism), then the statement that he has no position on the matter is correct. Isn't it?

He/she probably has no positioning on anything probably bar his/her mothers teat and soiling itself. Yes you're right it has no positioning on the matter in the same way that my pet dog doesn't either - hence the 'doesn't make any sense' comment...

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="poptart"]

But you ascribed a label, when the only label you should really use is egocentric as that exemplifies the baby's incapacity to process any kind of information regarding the world and beyond. Plucking out labels (of which I assume there are many) and applying thembecauseof this inability is what doesn't make any sense.

poptart

If that is his only label (his egocentrism), then the statement that he has no position on the matter is correct. Isn't it?

He/she probably has no positioning on anything probably bar his/her mothers teat and soiling itself. Yes you're right it has no positioning on the matter in the same way that my pet dog doesn't either - hence the 'doesn't make any sense' comment...

Thank you.

We aren't born atheist, we're born not knowing anything.

We aren't born atheist, we're born not knowing anything.

Former_Slacker

though if a baby can be an athiest then a baby can also be a devout religious person too. both make perfect sense.

I see several pages of people arguing about the definition of a word. Somehow LJS9502_basic always seems to be involved whenever this happens. :P

I see several pages of people arguing about the definition of a word. Somehow LJS9502_basic always seems to be involved whenever this happens. :P

StopThePresses

[QUOTE="StopThePresses"]

I see several pages of people arguing about the definition of a word. Somehow LJS9502_basic always seems to be involved whenever this happens. :P

clayron

[QUOTE="clayron"][QUOTE="StopThePresses"]

I see several pages of people arguing about the definition of a word. Somehow LJS9502_basic always seems to be involved whenever this happens. :P

StopThePresses

That's sort of what I tried to do. :P

Atheism is in reality the belief there is no god, so no you aren't born atheist. Actually atheism is a pretty new idea so it doesn't make much sense whatever you define atheism as.

I think you are confusing atheist and agnostic. An agnostic does not hold a belief (an indeed is a type of Atheist because in denying any knowledge they do not actively believe in God), and an Atheist is someone who is certain that there is no God. The former position does not require justification, and is open to the existence of God, while the latter position, the true Atheist, does require to justification to be rational. You don't need justication for not holding a belief if there is no evidence either way. However, being an atheist and actively believing that there is no God, that the universe with all its matter and life just happened to arise out of nothing, then yes, that requires justification. Just as much as the theist requires.Acemaster27

No, I am not confusing atheism for agnosticism. Agnosticism requires one to be aware of a particular argument or premise. In order to claim that a premise is unknowable, one needs to be aware of that premise. Agnosticism is not merely a lack of knowledge, it is a proclamation that certain knowledge can't be attained. Atheism, on the other hand, merely requires one to be without belief. Hence, by default, we are all athiests.

I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.GazaAli

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.htekemerald

I lol'ed.

and an Atheist is someone who is certain that there is no God...Acemaster27

I am 99.9% sure that there isn't a god, but I know I can't disprove that there isn't one as that would be impossible (hence not claiming being 100% sure.)

Does that mean I am an atheist or agnostic (even though I find the idea of god ludicrous?)

Wouldn't an agnostic be someone who believes the chances of both ways being likely?

When we are born, we don't know anything, and it is impossible to believe in something we don't know. We can't really define ourselves as atheists when we are born, as atheists define themselves as believing there is no God. When we are born, we don't believe in anything. In short, is not knowing the same as not believing?Superironic

No, but not knowing necessitates not believing. If you don't know about god, then you don't believe in him.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.htekemerald

[QUOTE="Superironic"]When we are born, we don't know anything, and it is impossible to believe in something we don't know. We can't really define ourselves as atheists when we are born, as atheists define themselves as believing there is no God. When we are born, we don't believe in anything. In short, is not knowing the same as not believing?BluRayHiDef

No, but not knowing necessitates not believing. If you don't know about god, then you don't believe in him.

Don't agree. According to my Islamic faith we are born Muslims (In nature). Then we either change or stay the same. Also, if this is the default state, I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.GazaAli

Atheism is the default state because it's the lack of belief in god or any god. No baby believes in god thus he is an atheist until his parents are done brainwashing him into believing what they believe.

Atheism is the Default Condition:

The term atheism is composed of a prefix (a: without)and a root (theism: belief in gods).Hence, an atheist is literally one who is without belief in god(s). It does not necessarily imply a conscious opposition to belief in god(s). Hence, all one needs is a lack of belief in god(s) in order to be an atheist. As we are all born without belief in god(s), irrespective of our ability to understand the concept, we are atheists by birth. Hence, atheism is the default condition. Theism, on the other hand, requires one to become convinced that there is a god. Hence, it is NOT the default condition. Now, an atheist can be consciously aware of the concept of god and be against it, but they are not required to be so in order to be an atheist. Whether an atheist is consciously aware of the concept or not, he is an atheist so as long as he is without belief.

It is illogical to hold Atheists responsible for not being convinced:

As we are all naturally predisposed to be without belief in god, an atheist is not required to prove anything. An atheist is not a claimant. Hence, he/ she is not required to oppose the position that there is a god. He/ she may choose to do so, but does not have to. Prior to becoming aware of a particular concept or idea, one is not required to oppose it, even though they are without belief in that particular concept. If one were to claim that there is an invisible creature standing on my left shoulder, I would not be required to prove them wrong because I would be without belief in that claim by default. I may choose to argue against that claim, but I am not required.

Do you agree or disagree?

BluRayHiDef

Disagree. A person born is either taught there is no God, or that there is no God. One cannot be born believeing that there is nothing to believe in; you have to be taught that.

Did you just get around to reading Atheism: the case against god by George H Smith, TC?

If not, that is a good book imo.

However, while that is an important point, I have yet to hear a true Christian apologist defend Christianity by saying "We are all born Christians."

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Don't agree. According to my Islamic faith we are born Muslims (In nature). Then we either change or stay the same. Also, if this is the default state, I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.XileLord

Atheism is the default state because it's the lack of belief in god or any god. No baby believes in god thus he is an atheist until his parents are done brainwashing him into believing what they believe.

Contraray to your opinion, religious people are not brinwashed. A parent says to a chold "there are no monsters under the bed" like a few times and thats it. But the people who choose to imprint on others that there is no God have to tell them to thousands of times a day. Hence, there has to be a God.

Contraray to your opinion, religious people are not brinwashed. A parent says to a chold "there are no monsters under the bed" like a few times and thats it. But the people who choose to imprint on others that there is no God have to tell them to thousands of times a day. Hence, there has to be a God.

Calvin079

Well, I sure am convinced.

[QUOTE="XileLord"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Don't agree. According to my Islamic faith we are born Muslims (In nature). Then we either change or stay the same. Also, if this is the default state, I wonder why would someone come up with stuff like Islam and Judaism.Calvin079

Atheism is the default state because it's the lack of belief in god or any god. No baby believes in god thus he is an atheist until his parents are done brainwashing him into believing what they believe.

Contraray to your opinion, religious people are not brinwashed. A parent says to a chold "there are no monsters under the bed" like a few times and thats it. But the people who choose to imprint on others that there is no God have to tell them to thousands of times a day. Hence, there has to be a God.

600 posts, OT? 600!? On whether being an Atheist is not knowing the concept of God or in consciously rejecting the idea of a God?

I do not decieve, nor am I speaking the delusions of my own mind, thoug you may percieve what you will. Look at nazture, you think this happened all by chance? Can there not be a designer? When tyou do something wrong, does your conscince not make you feel guilty? these are all signs of a God.