What Do You Think Is The True Meaning Of Christmas?

[QUOTE="darklord888"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] DarkKnight, I dont know if blackregiment is going to use the Bible as a historical source in his arguments, but to say that the New Testament cannot be used as evidence for the existence of God is ridiculous methodology rejected by even the most radical of critics (even Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier, 2 men who are incredibly looney in their own right, would not use these retorts). The fact is the New Testament was canonized over a period of roughly 250 years. You cannot dismiss a document simply because some people a few decades after it was penned decided to call it holy scripture (they didn't even view it the same way modern fundamentalist Christians view it)danwallacefan

There is much evidence for the existence of God in His Creation.

blackregiment

How so, exactly?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="123625"] As with those who don't beleive in the inerrency of the KJV.123625

For one pleading that the thread not go off-topic, you sure seem to be trying to discuss something that is off-topic, Bible translations.

P.S I had no intention of discussing translations...

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"]

Anything aside from what the Bible says?

darklord888

In order for one not to believe that Jesus is God, that He was raised from the dead, which therefore proves that God exists, they would have to deny the truth of the empty tomb and the Resurrection. In addition, they would have to deny the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies in Christ. .

They would have to believe that the Apostles and early Christians made up the Resurrection story. This would require a rational explanation for why the Apostles and early Christians would willingly endure persecution and death for something they knew was a lie? The Apostles and early Christians were stoned, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.

A rational explanation would be required as to why the Jewish Priests and Roman authorities that wanted so much to stamp out early Christianity, as evidenced by their persecution of Christians, chose not to display Jesus' body to disprove the claims of the followers of Christ that he had arose from the dead.

A rational explanation would be required for the dramatic change ins the Apostles' behavior. They scattered and even denied knowing Jesus when He was arrested. After His death, they were crushed, in hiding, their Messiah put to death like a common criminal. Suddenly, after Jesus appeared to them there was a dramatic change. They began to openly preach the Gospel in the Temple in Jerusalem, the very city where Jesus was crucified. The very city where there were living eyewitnesses to the events that would have refuted them if they were lying. They were told to stop but defied the authorities. The endured persecution and ultimately death rather than recant their faith because they believed they saw, touched, and fellowshipped with the resurrected Jesus.

Also needing rational explanation would be why the Apostles were bold enough to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem, the very city where Christ was crucified, to crowds that lived during those events and could have easily disputed the resurrection claims publically. If they were spreading a lie, why did they not go to some remote area where there were no eyewitnesses to the crucifixtation and resurrection of Christ that could disputed their claims if they were lying?

Finally, one would need to explain why the early Church grew so quickly in a pagan world, especially when it was under intense persecution. Even today, in countries like North Korea and China, where Christians are under the most intense persecution, the Church is growing faster than in areas with less persecution.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are not entitled to your beliefs, far be it to impose on your free will, but personally, when one rationally considers the evidence, the reasonable and rational belief is in the truth of Christianity.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]*yawn* Remind me.Funky_Llama

True Biblical Christians do not participate in your ungodly 'jokes'. :xFunky_Llama

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

For one pleading that the thread not go off-topic, you sure seem to be trying to discuss something that is off-topic, Bible translations.

Funky_Llama

P.S I had no intention of discussing translations...

I was simply making an observation. Am I not allowed to do that? Also, nothing about his statement was "ungodly". No one even asserted that it was.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] the moral decrees of God are not arbitrary, they are rooted in justice, love, and compassion. danwallacefan

They don't prove at ALL that there is a God. You could say Jesus was an Alien with as much proof. He died but was healed and brought back with technology, he went into heaven(a.k.a Space), he healed people, ect. Look at all the religious paintings with space ships in them. darklord888

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"] It was a Joke :| But apperntly I'm bad at them.

P.S I had no intention of discussing translations...

blackregiment

I was simply making an observation. Am I not allowed to do that? Also, nothing about his statement was "ungodly". No one even asserted that it was.

Well, if there are good things independant of God, then if God does or does not exist, there are still these positive moral values... so morality does not depends of God's existence, regardless of whether you need to believe in God to see how things are moral.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="darklord888"]

They don't prove at ALL that there is a God. You could say Jesus was an Alien with as much proof. He died but was healed and brought back with technology, he went into heaven(a.k.a Space), he healed people, ect. Look at all the religious paintings with space ships in them. danwallacefan

My prediction came true!

*snarks*

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Well, if there are good things independant of God, then if God does or does not exist, there are still these positive moral values... so morality does not depends of God's existence, regardless of whether you need to believe in God to see how things are moral.danwallacefan

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="darklord888"]

They don't prove at ALL that there is a God. You could say Jesus was an Alien with as much proof. He died but was healed and brought back with technology, he went into heaven(a.k.a Space), he healed people, ect. Look at all the religious paintings with space ships in them. Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="darklord888"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] DarkKnight, I dont know if blackregiment is going to use the Bible as a historical source in his arguments, but to say that the New Testament cannot be used as evidence for the existence of God is ridiculous methodology rejected by even the most radical of critics (even Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier, 2 men who are incredibly looney in their own right, would not use these retorts). The fact is the New Testament was canonized over a period of roughly 250 years. You cannot dismiss a document simply because some people a few decades after it was penned decided to call it holy scripture (they didn't even view it the same way modern fundamentalist Christians view it)blackregiment

In order for one not to believe that Jesus is God, that He was raised from the dead, which therefore proves that God exists, they would have to deny the truth of the empty tomb and the Resurrection. In addition, they would have to deny the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies in Christ. .

They would have to believe that the Apostles and early Christians made up the Resurrection story. This would require a rational explanation for why the Apostles and early Christians would willingly endure persecution and death for something they knew was a lie? The Apostles and early Christians were stoned, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.

A rational explanation would be required as to why the Jewish Priests and Roman authorities that wanted so much to stamp out early Christianity, as evidenced by their persecution of Christians, chose not to display Jesus' body to disprove the claims of the followers of Christ that he had arose from the dead.

A rational explanation would be required for the dramatic change ins the Apostles' behavior. They scattered and even denied knowing Jesus when He was arrested. After His death, they were crushed, in hiding, their Messiah put to death like a common criminal. Suddenly, after Jesus appeared to them there was a dramatic change. They began to openly preach the Gospel in the Temple in Jerusalem, the very city where Jesus was crucified. The very city where there were living eyewitnesses to the events that would have refuted them if they were lying. They were told to stop but defied the authorities. The endured persecution and ultimately death rather than recant their faith because they believed they saw, touched, and fellowshipped with the resurrected Jesus.

Also needing rational explanation would be why the Apostles were bold enough to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem, the very city where Christ was crucified, to crowds that lived during those events and could have easily disputed the resurrection claims publically. If they were spreading a lie, why did they not go to some remote area where there were no eyewitnesses to the crucifixtation and resurrection of Christ that could disputed their claims if they were lying?

Finally, one would need to explain why the early Church grew so quickly in a pagan world, especially when it was under intense persecution. Even today, in countries like North Korea and China, where Christians are under the most intense persecution, the Church is growing faster than in areas with less persecution.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are not entitled to your beliefs, far be it to impose on your free will, but personally, when one rationally considers the evidence, the reasonable and rational belief is in the truth of Christianity.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Well, if there are good things independant of God, then if God does or does not exist, there are still these positive moral values... so morality does not depends of God's existence, regardless of whether you need to believe in God to see how things are moral.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] I should cease this conversation right now because this is all I need to know with near-mathematical certainty that you are not interested in truth and are only interested in proving your own atheism to yourself. But regardless, medical science has shown for nearly 3 centuries that the resucitation of a corpse 3 days dead is impossible via any physical or temporal catalyst.danwallacefan

How is an unexplained thing be proof god exists? Again, he could have been revived by technology. Aliens are more believable that mighty beings. Also how many Apostles type people have there been in history? Greeks, Egyptians, and in fact THOUSANDS of other religions have had "proof" there god(s) is real. Just because something is unexplained doesn't mean proof. Also take in the fact that these were DUMB people. They didn't understand things and if they saw something strange they would call it a sign from God or magic. This is a time when the world was undiscovered, when they thought the earth was flat and space was heaven. A time when basic science was barely a concept. If Jesus came here today and can back to life it would be amazing but not proof of god. A woman came back to life after 17 HOURS. Could the same thing have happened to Jesus? Is she the next incarnation of God? Why aren't we worshiping her?darklord888

Sigh~ I said to myself I won't get involved, but now I will. What are the conditions this woman died in?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

There is much evidence for the existence of God in His Creation.

Dark_Knight6

How so, exactly?

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"]Here's the problem, without God, there is no way you or anyone else can say that good things are objectively Good. If I were to tell you that I think the Holocaust was good and moral, by what standard can you say that my standard is objectively worse and less moral than your standard? danwallacefan

[QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

There is much evidence for the existence of God in His Creation.

blackregiment

How so, exactly?

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

Sigh~ I said to myself I won't get involved, but now I will.123625

[QUOTE="darklord888"] How is an unexplained thing be proof god exists? Again, he could have been revived by technology. Aliens are more believable that mighty beings. Also how many Apostles type people have there been in history? Greeks, Egyptians, and in fact THOUSANDS of other religions have had "proof" there god(s) is real. Just because something is unexplained doesn't mean proof. Also take in the fact that these were DUMB people. They didn't understand things and if they saw something strange they would call it a sign from God or magic. This is a time when the world was undiscovered, when they thought the earth was flat and space was heaven. A time when basic science was barely a concept. If Jesus came here today and can back to life it would be amazing but not proof of god. A woman came back to life after 17 HOURS. Could the same thing have happened to Jesus? Is she the next incarnation of God? Why aren't we worshiping her?123625

Sigh~ I said to myself I won't get involved, but now I will. What are the conditions this woman died in?

I doubt that you would be able to give me a shred of evidence for such a ludicrous contention. The people of the ancient world were VERY aware of the fact that DEAD PEOPLE STAYED DEAD.

[QUOTE="darklord888"]They didn't understand things and if they saw something strange they would call it a sign from God or magic. darklord888

Once again, the ancients were very aware that dead people stayed dead. Even in the greek myths, resurrections were not allowed.

This is a time when the world was undiscovered, when they thought the earth was flat and space was heaven. A time when basic science was barely a concept. darklord888

but here's where you are misapplying history, ancient people every single day of their lives witnessed people dying and not coming back, more than you or I have experienced it. Are they all of the sudden going to express unlimited credulity towards the idea that someone actually came back to life?

If Jesus came here today and can back to life it would be amazing but not proof of god. A woman came back to life after 17 HOURS. Could the same thing have happened to Jesus? Is she the next incarnation of God? Why aren't we worshiping her?darklord888

[QUOTE="123625"]Sigh~ I said to myself I won't get involved, but now I will.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]But that only applies to humans. I give my full backing to the 'flying space Jew' theory. :PFunky_Llama

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Dear me. Contradictions aplenty... you previously admitted that certain values are good independant of God. Now are you claiming the opposite. How about you make your mind up? ;)Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="darklord888"] The human Jesus and the immortal, powerful, up in heaven god is 2 different things to prove.darklord888

In order for one not to believe that Jesus is God, that He was raised from the dead, which therefore proves that God exists, they would have to deny the truth of the empty tomb and the Resurrection. In addition, they would have to deny the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies in Christ. .

They would have to believe that the Apostles and early Christians made up the Resurrection story. This would require a rational explanation for why the Apostles and early Christians would willingly endure persecution and death for something they knew was a lie? The Apostles and early Christians were stoned, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.

A rational explanation would be required as to why the Jewish Priests and Roman authorities that wanted so much to stamp out early Christianity, as evidenced by their persecution of Christians, chose not to display Jesus' body to disprove the claims of the followers of Christ that he had arose from the dead.

A rational explanation would be required for the dramatic change ins the Apostles' behavior. They scattered and even denied knowing Jesus when He was arrested. After His death, they were crushed, in hiding, their Messiah put to death like a common criminal. Suddenly, after Jesus appeared to them there was a dramatic change. They began to openly preach the Gospel in the Temple in Jerusalem, the very city where Jesus was crucified. The very city where there were living eyewitnesses to the events that would have refuted them if they were lying. They were told to stop but defied the authorities. The endured persecution and ultimately death rather than recant their faith because they believed they saw, touched, and fellowshipped with the resurrected Jesus.

Also needing rational explanation would be why the Apostles were bold enough to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem, the very city where Christ was crucified, to crowds that lived during those events and could have easily disputed the resurrection claims publically. If they were spreading a lie, why did they not go to some remote area where there were no eyewitnesses to the crucifixtation and resurrection of Christ that could disputed their claims if they were lying?

Finally, one would need to explain why the early Church grew so quickly in a pagan world, especially when it was under intense persecution. Even today, in countries like North Korea and China, where Christians are under the most intense persecution, the Church is growing faster than in areas with less persecution.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are not entitled to your beliefs, far be it to impose on your free will, but personally, when one rationally considers the evidence, the reasonable and rational belief is in the truth of Christianity.

I see you simply went on a speculative journey. Is that because you are unable to address the point I made that would require a reasonable and rational explanation if Jesus did not actually rise from the dead?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] ah, we have encountered another intellectually dishonest Atheist :D. How many more shall crawl out of the woodwork tonight? Now Funky Llama, it is not just humans, but any living thing. I would suggest you learn just a little bit about biochemistry. Cellular metabolism can barely be restarted in just one cell. It cannot be restarted in anything on the macro scale of Eucaryotic life. danwallacefan

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="darklord888"] How is an unexplained thing be proof god exists? Again, he could have been revived by technology. Aliens are more believable that mighty beings. Also how many Apostles type people have there been in history? Greeks, Egyptians, and in fact THOUSANDS of other religions have had "proof" there god(s) is real. Just because something is unexplained doesn't mean proof. Also take in the fact that these were DUMB people. They didn't understand things and if they saw something strange they would call it a sign from God or magic. This is a time when the world was undiscovered, when they thought the earth was flat and space was heaven. A time when basic science was barely a concept. If Jesus came here today and can back to life it would be amazing but not proof of god. A woman came back to life after 17 HOURS. Could the same thing have happened to Jesus? Is she the next incarnation of God? Why aren't we worshiping her?darklord888

Sigh~ I said to myself I won't get involved, but now I will. What are the conditions this woman died in?

Now lets compare, Jesus was horribly tortured before his death. He was hung on a cross and peirced with a spear when he died. He was placed in a tomb for THREE days. Now iI don't see how you can compare the two. Jesus should have remained dead by all accounts. He should have had not a single ounce of strength left to even leave the cave after three days without food! How can you compare the two?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] Good sir, are you ignoring my points? I am saying that Justice, compassion, and Love are independent of God. The point I am trying to make is that through God, we can say that those values (justice, compassion, love) are objectively moral. Without God, you have no basis by which you can say that Justice, compassion, and love are objectively moral and that someone who has a moral standard condemning such actions holds to an objectively immoral standard. danwallacefan

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

blackregiment

An all-powerful being with a sick sense of humor and an unknown origin creating everything doesn't seem so much more likely, to be honest.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]:And I have encountered another Christian who can't take a joke... that makes two. :lol: But I quite like this bizarre little tangent, so... how do you know without having seen every alien being in the universe?Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"]

How so, exactly?

Funky_Llama

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

And you base your "faith" in a naturalistic Science of the Gaps belief system. We all have faith, I place mine in what God has said and you place yours in what man has said.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]The conclusion of your argument is that God exists, and your argument rests upon moral values existing. To avoid begging the question, you must prove that objective moral values exist without resorting to God - which you have just claimed is impossible. Nice self-defeating argument there.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] So funky llama, do you not believe in objective moral values all of the sudden? danwallacefan

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

blackregiment

And you base your "faith" in a naturalistic Science of the Gaps belief system. We all have faith, I place mine in what God has said and you place yours in what man has said.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Oh, I do, but since I'm being accused of intellectual dishonesty, I may as well live up to it. 'What moral values?' is perhaps the easiest way of refuting the moral 'argument'.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] no actually it isn't. danwallacefan

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

Dark_Knight6

An all-powerful being with a sick sense of humor and an unknown origin creating everything doesn't seem so much more likely, to be honest.

You asked me a question and I respectfully answered it, even thought I have given you those answers before. Now, since you are unable to offer reasonable and rational explanations for those three simple points, you now choose to resort to demeaning and mocking God. Why must you do that? That really does nothing to further your stated position that God does not exist.

[QUOTE="Dark_Knight6"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I have gone through that on another thread with you and I am not going to do it here. I just give you a couple. The impossibility of an un-caused origin for the universe, all matter, energy, even space and time, from a singularity that occupied no position in space or time. All thing that begin to exist have a cause. The universe began to exist. The universe had a first cause. The hundreds of anthropic factors that if even one of them had a slightly different value, the universe would have not formed and life would be impossible. The improbability of life forming from non-living chemicals by random chance in a hostile environment not conducive to the formation of amino acids and the problem of chirality.

blackregiment

An all-powerful being with a sick sense of humor and an unknown origin creating everything doesn't seem so much more likely, to be honest.

You asked me a question and I respectfully answered it, even thought I have given you those answers before. Now, since you are unable to offer reasonable and rational explanations for those three simple points, you now choose to resort to demeaning and mocking God. Why must you do that? That really does nothing to further your stated position that God does not exist.

Now lets compare, Jesus was horribly tortured before his death. He was hung on a cross and peirced with a spear when he died. He was placed in a tomb for THREE days. Now iI don't see how you can compare the two. Jesus should have remained dead by all accounts. He should have had not a single ounce of strength left to even leave the cave after three days without food! How can you compare the two?

123625

You asked me a question and I respectfully answered it, even thought I have given you those answers before. Now, since you are unable to offer reasonable and rational explanations for those three simple points, you now choose to resort to demeaning and mocking God. Why must you do that? That really does nothing to further your stated position that God does not exist.

blackregiment

I never stated that God doesn't exist. You cannot give me a reasonable or rational explanation, either. And if the Christian God does exist, there is no doubt in my mind that he has a sick sense of humor.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Really? If that's the case, then you should be able to make light work of it. I'm waiting. ;)Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="123625"]Now lets compare, Jesus was horribly tortured before his death. He was hung on a cross and peirced with a spear when he died. He was placed in a tomb for THREE days. Now iI don't see how you can compare the two. Jesus should have remained dead by all accounts. He should have had not a single ounce of strength left to even leave the cave after three days without food! How can you compare the two?

darklord888

and pray tell, how have the Gospels and Epistles been disproven? Remember, the bible is not one book

Actually, a lot of people don't think its the true birthdate of Jesus Christ.

Even if it isn't, its still a celebration of the event.

-TheSecondSign-

Actually, a lot of people don't think its the true birthdate of Jesus Christ.

Even if it isn't, its still a celebration of the event.