What if you believe in God but think he's a jerk?

I'm a Christian, but this pic from 9gag might help some of you...

From my practical standpoint if God were real I wouldn't consider him to be the ultimately good and loving being religions make him out to be. The Bible itself claims he has done horrendously cruel things to people just for not supporting him yet we're supposed to believe he loves us all unconditionally? I understand sometimes we punish the people we love but there's a fine line between punishment and throwing someone away into the hellfire of eternity just because they don't follow your orders. To me punishment is supposed to be teaching someone a lesson so they can redeem their actions, how is that possible if you just kill the person and send them straight to hell?

Not to mention that this is the modern age, and things that were considered OK in the eyes of God a long time ago like sexism, racism, homophobia just don't cut it in most civilized societies today.

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]You mean Epicurus. It's one of his most famous quotes.pariah3

Epicurus wrote it but Bill M used it as one of his arguments against God in the Usenet newsgroup alt.atheism:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/e48dd1f940a0c37f/3e759de3b1422aac?q=Bill+M&lnk=ol&

What I wanted to say in my post is that I don't believe in this deity. This means that if I make a mistake in this life, I will have to deal with the consequences.

Nothing. He could give a rat ass about your opinion.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="ChampionoChumps"] "as Bill Maher once said" loolololololololol You just lost all of your credibility imoChampionoChumps

From my practical standpoint if God were real I wouldn't consider him to be the ultimately good and loving being religions make him out to be. The Bible itself claims he has done horrendously cruel things to people just for not supporting him yet we're supposed to believe he loves us all unconditionally? I understand sometimes we punish the people we love but there's a fine line between punishment and throwing someone away into the hellfire of eternity just because they don't follow your orders. To me punishment is supposed to be teaching someone a lesson so they can redeem their actions, how is that possible if you just kill the person and send them straight to hell?

GreySun369

Pretty much. As I said above, this is what really doesn't make sense to me. Hell is such an irrational concept given the "all loving" nature of God. He throws us into eternal hellfire for the dumbest, most petty reasons possible. This serves absolutely no benefit to anyone: God loses one to worship Him, and the person that is condemned suffers endlessly with no goal/redemption in mind, simply out of spite. And for what? Doing exactly what is in our nature? Many living their lives helping people as much as they can? But that's irrelevant, all good deeds are considered "dirty rags" anyway. Hell, we're f*cked from the moment we are born (thanks A & E), so our actions don't even MATTER. It's always astonished me that so many people embrace a belief that is so keen to tell them all the time that they're terrible people and never good enough, their actions mean nothing, and that God is the only way to be redeemed. What does that say about the person when God is taken away?

If God were truly all-loving, He would give us corrective punishment as a parent would. You can still be just without being cruel and unmerciful. I would loveto hear how burning in torment for eternity is "just" punishment for a mother lying about her son being sick to go on vacation. Is God not fair as well as just?? But actions don't even matter, as I said we're all screwed from birth, so belief is all that does. So why bother being good at all? When we as humans are easily able to overlook such tiny things as lying and lusting yet God isn't, what kind of God is that? In my eyes, a pathetic and insignificant one. Y'know, if the threat of Hell didn't exist, I'd probably be much more inclined to search for Jesus. But when you threaten me, I immediately become more defensive and clam up. I'll NEVER believe in any belief system that threatens me with horrific torture forever unless I believe (from an all-loving and merciful God nonetheless). :roll: EVER. Believing out of fear is cowardice, plain and simple, and I have no doubt that's why a large majority of people do.

[QUOTE="Ugalde-"]The only reason that I believe in god is because I think life can't suck this bad on accident.Labavo

Sometimes the people living in my Sim City just deserve a volcanic eruption or alien death robot on the middle of town.

Believing out of fear is cowardice, plain and simple, and I have no doubt that's why a large majority of people do.MirkoS77

I wholeheartedly agree with you. God behaves very much like a powerful high school bully who will cut you, freighten you and beat up you up leaving you seriously injured and bleeding.

That kind of God you describe is very much like a Satan that likes to abuse people rather than a loving and caring father.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

I wasn't referring to that film but now that you mention it it did get some good ideas out there. In fact i had stumbled across that film without having much knowledge of Bill Maher so I was pretty objective and it was one of the first things I watched that made me realise I no longer believed. That so called passionate actor was not much different then many of the believers I had encountered in my 32 years as a Christian. I would say it was a fair representation of the general beliefs I have encountered in my life.

Philokalia

Honestly if you think its a good representation of Christianity you haven't actually studied it alot ( i mean this in all sincerity). In the movie he somehow comes to the conclusion that Christ was derived from pagan gods, an outragous idea and to my knowledge he didn't go to a single historian. There were plenty of people he could have attempted to interview, but instead he went after easy targets to get laughs.

Personally i think he should have at least tried to interview people like. NT Wright, William Lane Craig, Richard Swinburne, Alvin plantinga, Mike Lincona and a whole host of scholars whom are Christians and are the best and brightest that could answer him on questions. But instead he focuses on Creationists, evangelicals who mean well but don't seem to be equipped to answer. The Francis Collins interview is a joke as well. Instead of asking him about the relation between Science and religion he focuses on the historicity of the New testament and the gospels, when there are more qualified people to answer, though I think Francis Collins pointed out the obvious flaw in Mahers reasoning that Historical texts should be put under the standard of the microscope (science). That interview seemed highly edited. Bill Maher is not a good source if you want to learn about religion and or critique it. The good sources at the scholars and those who have spent their lives studying it.

How can Eternity be a jerk? We can be likened to drops of rain, slowly falling...eventually there is no drop, but only the lake.

LOL, better climb down off your high horse and keep studying. I'm pretty sure a google search on the subject will enlighten you.

junglist101

Google huh, try NT Wright, try actually reading the new testament and understanding it in its jewish context instead of trying to force paganism onto it. People who want to suggest pagan parrelel theory that zeitgeist and Bill Maher support need to answer a lot of questions and discrepencies which have led most if not all scholars to abandon this position. It is such a lazy and fringe position that relies on outdated sources (usually before the 1940s or some time around there) and none of these people are accredited in history. Google can also link to Jack Chick, but then again I don't think he is right.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

LOL, better climb down off your high horse and keep studying. I'm pretty sure a google search on the subject will enlighten you.

Philokalia

Google huh, try NT Wright, try actually reading the new testament and understanding it in its jewish context instead of trying to force paganism onto it. People who want to suggest pagan parrelel theory that zeitgeist and Bill Maher support need to answer a lot of questions and discrepencies which have led most if not all scholars to abandon this position. It is such a lazy and fringe position that relies on outdated sources (usually before the 1940s or some time around there) and none of these people are accredited in history. Google can also link to Jack Chick, but then again I don't think he is right.

The bible is fundamentally flawed from Genesis through Revelations. God breaks even his own commandments. He murders the innocent, supports slavery, supports rape and adultery, has his people steal, and the list goes on. Even stories such as that of Moses are flawed---God kills the firstborn of egypt when he himself hardens the Pharaohs heart. Or what about Lot when the men came to him asking to have sex with the angels and he offers his virgin daughter to them? And lot was a so called man of God.

Some of the bible is just silly. God creates an entire universe but needs a rib from adam to make a woman? Or he creates light before the sun?

I used to be like you using the same flawed logic that I had heard over and over again by the so called experts. It's those very experts that cloud your mind. If you are objective you will see that the bible greatly flawed. When I realised that, I was finally free.

I don't see the relevance in anything you said. You bolded the portion of which I said it was bad to suggest Christ was derived from a pagan myth and hence this is where the conversation needs to be going. Now many people claim to have been Christian for along time and then have given up, it does nothing to me that you say you were a Christian. It would do more if you demonstrated such knowledge and accepting the ludicrous theory of Zeitgiest that Jesus was derived from pagan Gods shows a fundamental problem in your Christianity, that it wasn't well thought out. Here is what we need to understand, this is a dead theory, modern academia and anyone with any dignity has abandoned this idea. Why? Because no one can give a plausible connection to say the apostles to say the ancient Egyptian religion. These parrelel theories lack substance and are based merely on superficial similarities which ignore main concepts of these religions, like say resurrection. Some might suggest that because a few greek stories have accounts of mythic figures being raised from the dead that Christianity was inspired by this, but we run into flaws when we look into this matter deeper. For a more indepth analysis of the views of resurrection in the pagan world I would recommend NT Wright and the resurrection of the son of God, a marvellous demonstration of how resurrection was understood in the ancient world by pagan and Hebrew.

Now you say I am not objective. I don't want to get into personal insults here. Though I realise I may sound very condescending with how I speak about Christ Mythers and paganisers as I call them. So I let others decide who amongst us is right.

I don't see the relevance in anything you said. You bolded the portion of which I said it was bad to suggest Christ was derived from a pagan myth and hence this is where the conversation needs to be going. Now many people claim to have been Christian for along time and then have given up, it does nothing to me that you say you were a Christian. It would do more if you demonstrated such knowledge and accepting the ludicrous theory of Zeitgiest that Jesus was derived from pagan Gods shows a fundamental problem in your Christianity, that it wasn't well thought out. Here is what we need to understand, this is a dead theory, modern academia and anyone with any dignity has abandoned this idea. Why? Because no one can give a plausible connection to say the apostles to say the ancient Egyptian religion. These parrelel theories lack substance and are based merely on superficial similarities which ignore main concepts of these religions, like say resurrection. Some might suggest that because a few greek stories have accounts of mythic figures being raised from the dead that Christianity was inspired by this, but we run into flaws when we look into this matter deeper. For a more indepth analysis of the views of resurrection in the pagan world I would recommend NT Wright and the resurrection of the son of God, a marvellous demonstration of how resurrection was understood in the ancient world by pagan and Hebrew.

Now you say I am not objective. I don't want to get into personal insults here. Though I realise I may sound very condescending with how I speak about Christ Mythers and paganisers as I call them. So I let others decide who amongst us is right.

Philokalia

I love how you conveinently side step what I said. Classic Christian picking and choosing what parts of the bible they wish to pay attention too.

junglist101

I'm not interested in going off on tangents, I'm sticking to the point, something many should learn to do themselves. So please defend the Zeitgeistian argument for Christ being derived from paganism and see how far you get.

Needless to say such an attitude is a modern attitude many Christians have developed, whereas the fathers of the church continously used the Old testmanet and read on it very much. Great men like Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom and Augustine.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

I love how you conveinently side step what I said. Classic Christian picking and choosing what parts of the bible they wish to pay attention too.

Philokalia

I'm not interested in going off on tangents, I'm sticking to the point, something many should learn to do themselves. So please defend the Zeitgeistian argument for Christ being derived from paganism and see how far you get.

Needless to say such an attitude is a modern attitude many Christians have developed, whereas the fathers of the church continously used the Old testmanet and read on it very much. Great men like Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom and Augustine.

Here's a thought: What if God exists, but the people on Earth that believe in him are soo stupid that they make everyone else feel he doesn't exist.

Truly I'm pointing at people like the Pope who's "the only one that can talk to God," and others that relate to him. If you want people to believe in you, you need PROOF.

Or another thought: What if the Big Bang DID happen, and religion is the oldest/longest running business in human history? Oh wait...

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

I love how you conveinently side step what I said. Classic Christian picking and choosing what parts of the bible they wish to pay attention too.

junglist101

I'm not interested in going off on tangents, I'm sticking to the point, something many should learn to do themselves. So please defend the Zeitgeistian argument for Christ being derived from paganism and see how far you get.

Needless to say such an attitude is a modern attitude many Christians have developed, whereas the fathers of the church continously used the Old testmanet and read on it very much. Great men like Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom and Augustine.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

I'm not interested in going off on tangents, I'm sticking to the point, something many should learn to do themselves. So please defend the Zeitgeistian argument for Christ being derived from paganism and see how far you get.

Needless to say such an attitude is a modern attitude many Christians have developed, whereas the fathers of the church continously used the Old testmanet and read on it very much. Great men like Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom and Augustine.

jshaas

Really, I just can't stand his arrogant attitude and you two clearly have something in common. Not very "Christ like" if you ask me... Just sayin'

I doubt you give a damn what the ants think so why should GOD care what you think??

[QUOTE="jshaas"][QUOTE="junglist101"]I done debating with you. To be honest I just feel sorry for you.

junglist101

Really, I just can't stand his arrogant attitude and you two clearly have something in common. Not very "Christ like" if you ask me... Just sayin'

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="jshaas"] You never debated your point though. That's what Phil is getting at. Also, a Christian of 32 years would know it's Revelation not "Revelations." Just saying.jshaas

Really, I just can't stand his arrogant attitude and you two clearly have something in common. Not very "Christ like" if you ask me... Just sayin'

How can you say that I don't see your point of view? I had your point of view for most of my life. The fact is, you can't see my point of view.

I believe in God, and I like Him. But I don't like church, I don't like the pope nor priests. I prefer God as He is rather than what men say about Him.

[QUOTE="jshaas"][QUOTE="junglist101"]Reading back there was no debate. What I should have said is, "I'm done talking with you." And that's not what phil was getting at; he just wants to quote religious"experts" who get their "expertise" from the same flawed book that he does whilst hurling subtle insults. The bible is not a reference..

Really, I just can't stand his arrogant attitude and you two clearly have something in common. Not very "Christ like" if you ask me... Just sayin'

junglist101

How can you say that I don't see your point of view? I had your point of view for most of my life. The fact is, you can't see my point of view.

reminds me of a quote from pitch black, i forget the exact words though.Sword-Demon

You mean this? Nr. 7 is the one

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

[QUOTE="jshaas"] Well, it's good to know that you're an expert on the experts. This has nothing to do with being "Christ like." We're standing by our convictions, and because you don't agree with us we're being arrogant. I think not. I'm so sick of people that are so caught up in their own mindset that they won't allow themselves to see other's points of view. This seems to be a common trait among liberals. And before you say that's what we're doing... it's not. We are standing firm in our beliefs and defending them. We are not trying to make anyone see things our way. You, however, are spewing nonsense and failing to defend it. Believe what you will, that's not up to me to change your mind... and I'll respect you for standing by what you believe.jshaas

How can you say that I don't see your point of view? I had your point of view for most of my life. The fact is, you can't see my point of view.

[QUOTE="Brawler-Dude"]

I was just saying in a nut shell what the other guy said. But truly, I'm noting going to sit here and bash, because if it is what you believe that is fine and ok with me. But truly why can we not place someone above that line. I understand he is meant to be the "creator" but as the creator wouldn't god want us to be as happy as possible, even if that means to love another human being more then him. Sure humans aren't perfect, in anyway thought possible, but then again what does make god perfect in a sense. Just because he is a all powerful being? So does that mean a alien comes down from outspace with super powers he is perfect in ever way? No it doesn't, the point I'm truly trying to make, why are we forced to live by that rule and not by our own, a guidline if you may say, why is it that when you hold your new born child in your hands that little baby can't be the love of your life?

Philokalia

Ahh I do indeed believe God wants us to be happy, and that happiness comes from loving God who gives more love than we could ever hope to give.

cybrcatter

Poetic Edda verifies the existance of Valhalla (a religion much cooler than Christian ones, btw)

iHarlequin

I don't get why people say this. Judeo-Christian Culture is pretty "cool" also. Just because the like of other religions are featured in pop culture more frequently doesn't make them more cool. If we left it up to past cultures to show us what religion was like, the likes of Greek mythology would be ultimately boring. Just focusing on the "cool" stories will make any religion seem cooler than it is. If I focus on only the "cool" parts of supermans timeline and then all of batmans I will thinksuperman is more cool (which he is btw if anyone was wondering).

[QUOTE="cybrcatter"]

-Sun_Tzu-

What if? Well, the most accepted view of god seems to be that of a bi-polar insecure pompous ass jerk.

Who the hell would want to worship that character?

What if? Well, the most accepted view of god seems to be that of a bi-polar insecure pompous ass jerk.

Who the hell would want to worship that character?

_R34LiTY_

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

What if? Well, the most accepted view of god seems to be that of a bi-polar insecure pompous ass jerk.

Who the hell would want to worship that character?

-DirtySanchez-

Then I suppose it's a match made in heaven then! :P

Really, you could have gathered only a minimal idea of what I believe from this thread. What nonsense would you like me to defend? I didn't say much of anything except for that it is likely that Christianity is derived from preceding religions which your buddy wanted to turn into a discussion about Zeitgeist.

How can you say that I don't see your point of view? I had your point of view for most of my life. The fact is, you can't see my point of view.

junglist101

And I gave a few arguments against this untenable position. I also reccomended a good historical source NT Wright on regards to the ressurection and how it is claimed that christians some how took the concept from pagans, when in reality their concept of ressurection is so jewish that it is an insult to pagans to say they took from them. See in order for the Zeitgeistian claim to work Christians would have to be gnostics, whose philosophy and attitude (typically) toward things such as the unimportance of the flesh, that wisdom now saves you, and indeed other aspects were fully rooted in greek pagan thought. Unlike historic Christianity which at is base is so very jewish.

You failed to give any defence of this position and i believe its because you know it is untenable.

I find itirrational (or foolish)to think that a God exists but is simply a jerk. The way I see there simply is NO God in existence, or at least not the kind who cares about humans.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="Brawler-Dude"]

I was just saying in a nut shell what the other guy said. But truly, I'm noting going to sit here and bash, because if it is what you believe that is fine and ok with me. But truly why can we not place someone above that line. I understand he is meant to be the "creator" but as the creator wouldn't god want us to be as happy as possible, even if that means to love another human being more then him. Sure humans aren't perfect, in anyway thought possible, but then again what does make god perfect in a sense. Just because he is a all powerful being? So does that mean a alien comes down from outspace with super powers he is perfect in ever way? No it doesn't, the point I'm truly trying to make, why are we forced to live by that rule and not by our own, a guidline if you may say, why is it that when you hold your new born child in your hands that little baby can't be the love of your life?

cybrcatter

Ahh I do indeed believe God wants us to be happy, and that happiness comes from loving God who gives more love than we could ever hope to give.

Two little words is all you need to hear: free will. The ultimate excuse, the ultimate cop out. I wish I could create somebody and then be nice enough to lay the blame at their feet, have them then embrace this blame wholeheartedly, and then WORSHIP me for it begging for my forgiveness.

MirkoS77

Free will is part of it, but isn't the ultimate responce. Do you think most Christians think that God causes these be people to be the way they are? No Christianity attributes all of mankinds faults, weaknesses and the like to the fall.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

Two little words is all you need to hear: free will. The ultimate excuse, the ultimate cop out. I wish I could create somebody and then be nice enough to lay the blame at their feet, have them then embrace this blame wholeheartedly, and then WORSHIP me for it begging for my forgiveness.

Philokalia

Free will is part of it, but isn't the ultimate responce. Do you think most Christians think that God causes these be people to be the way they are? No Christianity attributes all of mankinds faults, weaknesses and the like to the fall.

So when people die from natural disasters that's because some guy ate an apple 6,000 years ago? -Sun_Tzu-

I don't believe in the literal genesis but I do believe mankind has fallen and needs Christ. But to suggest its a cop out completely misses the Christian responce, which I think was best summed up by St Athanasius of Alexandria in his On the Incarnation. A book anyone who wants to study Christianity should read at some point.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So when people die from natural disasters that's because some guy ate an apple 6,000 years ago? Philokalia

I don't believe in the literal genesis but I do believe mankind has fallen and needs Christ. But to suggest its a cop out completely misses the Christian responce, which I think was best summed up by St Athanasius of Alexandria in his On the Incarnation. A book anyone who wants to study Christianity should read at some point.

God seems like such a wonderful individual based on your descriptions of him. -Sun_Tzu-

Sarcasm I suppose?

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

Two little words is all you need to hear: free will. The ultimate excuse, the ultimate cop out. I wish I could create somebody and then be nice enough to lay the blame at their feet, have them then embrace this blame wholeheartedly, and then WORSHIP me for it begging for my forgiveness.

Philokalia

Free will is part of it, but isn't the ultimate responce. Do you think most Christians think that God causes these be people to be the way they are? No Christianity attributes all of mankinds faults, weaknesses and the like to the fall.

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

MirkoS77

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

Philokalia

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.

But I thought we had free will? How can I have free will and yet at the same time I have no control when it comes to the Fall? I myself didn't eat any fruit from the forbidden tree, yet I am being punished for it and I have no say in it. You say God can't fix the worlds problems because that would impede free will yet on the other hand you say we are all inherently corrupt and sinful and are forced to suffer because of something that allegedly happened thousands of years ago that none of us here today chose to do. -Sun_Tzu-

God says we are not punished for the sins of our father, therefore will we be punished because of our own sins. I don't believe the doctrine of original sin as traditionally defined in the west, to me it makes God a monster who makes us pay for the sins we did not ourselves commit, and I fully believe this is not Christian. However we do as men have a corrupted nature which predisposes us to evil and God didn't leave us without hope, his son came and showed the flesh will be perfect once again after the ressurection. The solution is there, you just don't accept it.

God says we are not punished for the sins of our father, therefore will we be punished because of our own sins. I don't believe the doctrine of original sin as traditionally defined in the west, to me it makes God a monster who makes us pay for the sins we did not ourselves commit, and I fully believe this is not Christian. However we do as men have a corrupted nature which predisposes us to evil and God didn't leave us without hope, his son came and showed the flesh will be perfect once again after the ressurection. The solution is there, you just don't accept it.Philokalia

I see "God" as just a life force (or some kind of esoteric energy) inhering inside living animals (people included) rather than a conscious entity with feelings, emotions and sentience.

See vitalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_(esotericism)

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]God says we are not punished for the sins of our father, therefore will we be punished because of our own sins. I don't believe the doctrine of original sin as traditionally defined in the west, to me it makes God a monster who makes us pay for the sins we did not ourselves commit, and I fully believe this is not Christian. However we do as men have a corrupted nature which predisposes us to evil and God didn't leave us without hope, his son came and showed the flesh will be perfect once again after the ressurection. The solution is there, you just don't accept it.pariah3

I see "God" as just a life force (or some kind of esoteric energy) inhering inside living animals (people included) rather than a conscious entity with feelings, emotions and sentience.

See vitalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_(esotericism)

Seems rather silly to me.

EDIT: Allow me to clarify, I see God as having to be a personal entity which is extremely powerful, beyond comprehension. The traditional definition of what divinity has been in the west. Some sort of universal energy which everyone seems to have which is called God leaves alot of questions. What is this energy? Does it influence us in anyway? It doesnt seem like the concrete thing the way you described it.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

-Sun_Tzu-

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.