What if you believe in God but think he's a jerk?

you will never change the mind of someone on a gaming forum who has jesus for an avatarwis3boi

Seems rather silly to me.

EDIT: Allow me to clarify, I see God as having to be a personal entity which is extremely powerful, beyond comprehension. The traditional definition of what divinity has been in the west. Some sort of universal energy which everyone seems to have which is called God leaves alot of questions. What is this energy? Does it influence us in anyway? It doesnt seem like the concrete thing the way you described it.Philokalia

Have you read the links to the articles I posted? Some religions describe God as a machine or as a life force and not as a living, feeling and sentient being like humans are for example. These religions have more evidence to support them than Christianity or Islam for example.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]Seems rather silly to me.

EDIT: Allow me to clarify, I see God as having to be a personal entity which is extremely powerful, beyond comprehension. The traditional definition of what divinity has been in the west. Some sort of universal energy which everyone seems to have which is called God leaves alot of questions. What is this energy? Does it influence us in anyway? It doesnt seem like the concrete thing the way you described it.pariah3

Have you read the links to the articles I posted? Some religions describe God as a machine or as a life force and not as a living, feeling and sentient being like humans are for example. These religions have more evidence to support them than Christianity or Islam for example.

Some people believe everything in this world to be "God" that doesnt mean they have proof, it just means they've redefined what the universe is.

A narcissistic and sadistic "God" who likes to do bad things to people is not what I would consider a worthy God.

As Bill Maher once said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why even call him God?

pariah3

To be able but not willing doesn't equal malevolence, that's just atheist short-sightedness. Sometimes there's a bigger picture.jamejame

No there is no bigger picture in my opinion. If you see a kid drowning in a pool and you are quite capable of helping the kid but you don't offer the kid a helping hand, doesn't this mean that your actionswere malevolent?

I also don't buy the idea thatalife of torture can ever be made up by giving you eternal life in heaven.

I don't want to sound like a egalitarian Communist but how does God really intend to compensate those who suffered greatly in this life, or were living in extreme poverty all their life or those who died very young or have gone through a very slow and painful death?

How do you think God really intends to make up for the misfortunes that befell those people and make the world more fair?

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

Philokalia

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.

That really didn't even attempt to address my points at all. :?

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

But our faults can be directly linked to him, as he is our creator. He creates us, and we do something inherent to our nature (which he defined), and then we are immediately entrapped and forced into either believing or suffering forever. If He wasn't responsible for our creation, hey I'd think He'd be a nice guy offering me a path away from condemnation. But He IS responsible.

He created us the way we are. We act as we are created. Then we are blamed. Thanks God, don't do me any more favors. Hell, I didn't do anything so wrong. Stole a candy bar here and there, told a few lies, looked at some porn, cheated at poker. Apparently Hell is a just and fair punishment for these massive atrocities. Forget them, just being me is bad enough I guess.

MirkoS77

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.

That really didn't even attempt to address my points at all. :?

Well, if the Bible really is the word of God, then that pretty much proves he's a total ass.

] And he won't. He conveniently dodges any poignant arguments or ideas that he in no way could defend and circles back around using his recycled rhetoric.

junglist101

I'm still waiting for you to justify your Zeitgeistian views.

He's actually a really cool guy though. Get to know him brah

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

] And he won't. He conveniently dodges any poignant arguments or ideas that he in no way could defend and circles back around using his recycled rhetoric.

Philokalia

I'm still waiting for you to justify your Zeitgeistian views.

I only base my views on Christianity minimally at best on this topic. I'm not sure why I ever let myself get sucked into these discussions online when they are better suited to be discussed in person over a beer. Christians automatically assume you have something against Christianity if you don't believe. But the fact is all of my family including extended family are Christians, every one of them---even my wife. My grandparents were pastors and my brother is a director of worship at my old church. My wedding last may was performed by our pastor and we had to attend classes at church to do so. I have only realised how it is impossible to objectively believe what the bible says within the last 6 months or so. Just to provide you some insight.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

And thats where teh fall comes into account with Christian and Jewish beliefs. Mankind fell from perfection.

junglist101

That really didn't even attempt to address my points at all. :?

I don't think he's incapable of defending it, I just think we're speaking two different languages. Every time I try to get an explanation and reasons as to why something is the way it is for God, I get statements instead. I know that's the way it is. I want to know WHY that's the way it is. Not meaning to single out Phil here, this has happened with literally every single religious person I've tried to get answers from. It's like asking a billboard to explain itself. Ah, I still hope.

It gets very frustrating, because I'm genuinely curious, and all the answers I seem to get always feel very rehearsed and dogmatic. There's really no attempt to justify or make reason out of it, it's just the way it is. That doesn't cut it for me, especially if I'm to believe in it. I wish I could find a religious person that could explain to me his beliefs from a non-religious viewpoint, using reason and logic instead of what comes off as a script.

I do not think it is an interesting subject, it might have been 50 years ago, but now it is not. The similarities which can be shown are merely trivial and do not strike into the heart of the matter. Many gods Did miracles in their stories, this isn't surprising, but when claims are basically made up as to what these Gods Did, Especially the God Mithra in both Roman and Persian forms it doesn't lead credibility to any of the ideas. As I said, there's a reason why this theory is dead in scholarship it just isn't true. This is why only crackpots and hasbins seek to prove this sort of theory, like Achyra S, and Maxwell Jordan, both loonier than loony toons.

Now Mirko, I thought my answer was obvious but obviously I gave to much credit. Heres your flaw, in the entire argument you basically assert God created us this way and that therefore we cannot be responsible. This is not the Christian view, historically or logically. The fall of mankind is central to why Christ came in the first place within Christianity. Do I really need to explain this concept in depth? Now you can claim I am ignorant, that I'm not justifying my religious beliefs, blah blah blah. But at the end I truly don't care if you think this way. Nor do I think it is inherently beneficial to the conversation at hand.

I do not think it is an interesting subject, it might have been 50 years ago, but now it is not. The similarities which can be shown are merely trivial and do not strike into the heart of the matter. Many gods Did miracles in their stories, this isn't surprising, but when claims are basically made up as to what these Gods Did, Especially the God Mithra in both Roman and Persian forms it doesn't lead credibility to any of the ideas. As I said, there's a reason why this theory is dead in scholarship it just isn't true. This is why only crackpots and hasbins seek to prove this sort of theory, like Achyra S, and Maxwell Jordan, both loonier than loony toons.

Now Mirko, I thought my answer was obvious but obviously I gave to much credit. Heres your flaw, in the entire argument you basically assert God created us this way and that therefore we cannot be responsible. This is not the Christian view, historically or logically. The fall of mankind is central to why Christ came in the first place within Christianity. Do I really need to explain this concept in depth? Now you can claim I am ignorant, that I'm not justifying my religious beliefs, blah blah blah. But at the end I truly don't care if you think this way. Nor do I think it is inherently beneficial to the conversation at hand.

Philokalia

Then let's discuss a concept instead. If God is omniscient then he created man knowing that he would eat from the tree of life. Therefore, God created man to fail in this aspect, ergo God is responsible for all the misery that has bestowed mankind since the fall(sin, pain, death etc.). To say different is to deny God's omniscience. He either knows all and created man setting him up for failure, or he doesn't know all and therefore isn't omniscient.

junglist101

We must ask does God's omniscience determine the outcome of the created, or does his omniscience mere know the outcome of the created? In here lies the answer. And I believe it is the second.Yes God is omniscient, and he gave us freewill, because without free will men cannot neccesarily be judged for their actions or truely come to love him (as the fathers teach us). So it seems like this was the best possible world God could have created. This does not deny God's omniscience nor mankind's responsibility. So I believe you have presented a false dichotomy,

Now Mirko, I thought my answer was obvious but obviously I gave to much credit. Heres your flaw, in the entire argument you basically assert God created us this way and that therefore we cannot be responsible. This is not the Christian view, historically or logically. The fall of mankind is central to why Christ came in the first place within Christianity. Do I really need to explain this concept in depth? Now you can claim I am ignorant, that I'm not justifying my religious beliefs, blah blah blah. But at the end I truly don't care if you think this way. Nor do I think it is inherently beneficial to the conversation at hand.

Philokalia

Too much credit? And what argument? You did barely anything to even try to attempt to answer my posts. If anything, I gave you too much credit expecting you'd approach my inquires with any semblance of intellectual honesty instead of attempting to continually throw your dogmatic garbage down my throat. Again, I KNOW exactly what you believe. I'm trying to see the logic and rationale behind it, I thought this was obvious. You seem unable to justify or rationalize it aside from, "this is what it is". I suppose my mistake was expecting some original thought on the matter instead of recycled dogma.

And you aren't justifying your beliefs, you're simply reiterating them over and over. I don't know why I even bothered. You want to come at me, get defensive, and condescend when all I'm looking for is answers that you can't be bothered to give? Then why are you here exactly? I wasn't attacking you before, nor was I pissed, but I am now. Yea, it isn't beneficial to the conversation at hand....because there was no conversation to begin with.

Honestly I don't know what more I can say. In your attempt to try and show the unjust nature of God you missed the fall, which makes your argument crumble showing that God is not responsible for the evil, but man is. This is a traditional Christian doctrine, and yet you don't see how it responded to what you said? The only place from here on out you can go to is to attack the validity of it philosophically, which that other user tried to do.Honestly. But in any case I somewhat agree, this isn't a conversation.

[QUOTE="junglist101"]

Then let's discuss a concept instead. If God is omniscient then he created man knowing that he would eat from the tree of life. Therefore, God created man to fail in this aspect, ergo God is responsible for all the misery that has bestowed mankind since the fall(sin, pain, death etc.). To say different is to deny God's omniscience. He either knows all and created man setting him up for failure, or he doesn't know all and therefore isn't omniscient.

Philokalia

We must ask does God's omniscience determine the outcome of the created, or does his omniscience mere know the outcome of the created? In here lies the answer. And I believe it is the second.Yes God is omniscient, and he gave us freewill, because without free will men cannot neccesarily be judged for their actions or truely come to love him (as the fathers teach us). So it seems like this was the best possible world God could have created. This does not deny God's omniscience nor mankind's responsibility. So I believe you have presented a false dichotomy,

This is profound because this means that a so-called loving God created a situation where he knew he would have to exact his wrath on mankind.

You see, this is where what you've been told superceeds reason. To a person who can objectively reason, this concept is a no brainer; someone who has been endoctrinated to believe different can't see the simple logic in the above concept but rather rationalizes it to fit a set of beliefs.