Whats the most successful libertarian/conservative government?

there are plenty of "socialist" countries out there that are all smart and happy according to measurable indices, but how bout those lesser known libertarians governements.

Like many of my US libertarian friends, ive seen those highly successful libertarian governments... and want to imitate them. But i cant seem to remember the name of those countries? Any hints?

Uhm, pretty sure you can't imitate. Most successful governments (if there's any) with libertarian socialist ideals are small and cannot be compared to the US. Especially in terms of demographic. Wasn't America built on free market?

Uhm, pretty sure you can't imitate. Most successful governments (if there's any) with libertarian socialist ideals are small and cannot be compared to the US. Especially in terms of demographic. Wasn't America built on free market?

Victorious_Fize

think your wrong, us libertarians know we are right and want to have a libertarian US government... we would not willy dilly inflict a completely unproven form of government on the most powerful country in the world... that would be completely illogical and make us mad men.

And yea we were sort of libertarian before pesky child labor laws and the abolishment of slavery.... you know, the good times when man was free to spend his money how he pleased with limited government! if i want my child to die in a coal mine, thats my right!

but seriously folks, the only libertarian governments are 3rd world crap holes. Lets quit the tea party nonsense.

i will vote ron paul the second someone shows me a libertarian country, that doesnt drink out of the place they pee.

I'll feed you. Where has anyone in the Tea Party advocated a completely libertarian government? Even Ron Paul doesn't think he can do that.

Libertarianism (American, of course) takes it's focus on Capitalism/free market, so I guess a good example would be Hong Kong and Singapore.

I'll feed you. Where has anyone in the Tea Party advocated a completely libertarian government? Even Ron Paul doesn't think he can do that.

airshocker

fine closest government to tea party ideals? hit me with it.

things like healthcare... we can shop around look at other "socialized" countries that do better than us... maybe some "socialized" countries do things worse... we have the luxury of seeing what works, and picking and choosing... using logic and results to improve our situation.

which countries are we using as a precedent for tea party stuff?

Libertarianism (American, of course) takes it's focus on Capitalism/free market, so I guess a good example would be Hong Kong and Singapore.

taj7575

Hong Kong, i know tea party folks, LOVE china (think its a democratic republic?). And singapore is a glorious beacon of GDP and education.

I agree, we should model ourselves after poor countries that have average wages of cents an hour.... seem like a good direction for the US to head in. Because once the average workers wages hit rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!

fine closest government to tea party ideals? hit me with it.

things like healthcare... we can shop around look at other "socialized" countries that do better than us... maybe some "socialized" countries do things worse... we have the luxury of seeing what works, and picking and choosing... using logic and results to improve our situation.

which countries are we using as a precedent for tea party stuff?

SoBaus

The Federal government is closest to "tea party ideals". The Federal Government isn't inherently "evil", it's become "evil" because of politicians who have over-stepped their boundaries.

To me nothing is an improvement if it limits my freedoms. That's what socialized programs do. At least to me.

We're using the Constitution as precedent?

Hong Kong, i know tea party folks, LOVE china (think its a democratic republic?). And singapore is a glorious beacon of GDP and education.

I agree, we should model ourselves after poor countries that have average wages of cents an hour.... seem like a good direction for the US to head in. Because once the average workers wages hit rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!

SoBaus

While Hong Kong is a part of China, it has it's own stock market and currency.

in fact does any libertarian country beat the US in any sort of measurable index? alot of socialist nations beat us in measurable indices.

but how bout libertarians governments? even a single measurable category? any of them? even one category?

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

Hong Kong, i know tea party folks, LOVE china (think its a democratic republic?). And singapore is a glorious beacon of GDP and education.

I agree, we should model ourselves after poor countries that have average wages of cents an hour.... seem like a good direction for the US to head in. Because once the average workers wages hit rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!

airshocker

While Hong Kong is a part of China, it has it's own stock market and currency.

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

Libertarianism (American, of course) takes it's focus on Capitalism/free market, so I guess a good example would be Hong Kong and Singapore.

SoBaus

Hong Kong, i know tea party folks, LOVE china (think its a democratic republic?). And singapore is a glorious beacon of GDP and education.

I agree, we should model ourselves after poor countries that have average wages of cents an hour.... seem like a good direction for the US to head in. Because once the average workers wages hit rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!

You can't connect Hong Kong with China - it's an SAR and follows a completely different setup from China, from Government to Freedom. Hong Kong and Macau are both self-governing, have their own currency, etc..

Canada?

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

SoBaus

They don't need to beat us in anything? I was informing you because you called them China when they are kinda' different.

Canada?

Espada12

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

airshocker

They don't need to beat us in anything? I was informing you because you called them China when they are kinda' different.

So what libertarian esque state should we take hints from? which should we model our economy after? this is my question.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

Hong Kong, i know tea party folks, LOVE china (think its a democratic republic?). And singapore is a glorious beacon of GDP and education.

I agree, we should model ourselves after poor countries that have average wages of cents an hour.... seem like a good direction for the US to head in. Because once the average workers wages hit rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!

SoBaus

While Hong Kong is a part of China, it has it's own stock market and currency.

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

No we don't need to model anything out of Hong Kong. It's just they followed a great free-market system for a long time, and worked perfectly. We continually kept changing our system since the beginning of the 20th century and has set us with a flawed want-to-be Capitalist system that is failing. Much of Hong Kong's problems also stems because it is a small island. Imagine if we followed a proper free market system with the amount of space we had for growth in our nation from the 20th century. Sadly, we can't go back to that, and most likely, never can.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Canada?

SoBaus

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

in fact does any libertarian country beat the US in any sort of measurable index? alot of socialist nations beat us in measurable indices.

but how bout libertarians governments? even a single measurable category? any of them? even one category?

SoBaus

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

While Hong Kong is a part of China, it has it's own stock market and currency.

taj7575

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

No we don't need to model anything out of Hong Kong. It's just they followed a great free-market system for a long time, and worked perfectly. We continually kept changing our system since the beginning of the 20th century and has set us with a flawed want-to-be Capitalist system that is failing. Much of Hong Kong's problems also stems because it is a small island. Imagine if we followed a proper free market system with the amount of space we had for growth in our nation from the 20th century. Sadly, we can't go back to that, and most likely, never can.

the good ole days of buildings with no fire escapes, that burn hundreds of women to death. Amen. Stupid goverment getting in the way.

So what libertarian esque state should we take hints from? which should we model our economy after? this is my question.

SoBaus

There is no such thing a libertarian country.

What libertarians like me want is a country where you don't need to go to the chamber of commerce to get a permit in order to cut someone's lawn, or work on their house.

As for the economy, we don't think the government should have the power to regulate everything. They should regulate things that can't be trusted by an honor system and that's it.

Libertarians aren't anarchists. Laws, for the most part, help this country. But you can't deny there are some extremely stupid and dangerous lawmakers who think they should have the power to control everything. That's what we don't want.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

So what libertarian esque state should we take hints from? which should we model our economy after? this is my question.

airshocker

There is no such thing a libertarian country.

What libertarians like me want is a country where you don't need to go to the chamber of commerce to get a permit in order to cut someone's lawn, or work on their house.

As for the economy, we don't think the government should have the power to regulate everything. They should regulate things that can't be trusted by an honor system and that's it.

Libertarians aren't anarchists. Laws, for the most part, help this country. But you can't deny there are some extremely stupid and dangerous lawmakers who think they should have the power to control everything. That's what we don't want.

I can admit libertarians want to implement a system with no F'n idea what might happen. Socialist bastion like finland are smarter than us, and happier than us. But we want to avoid being smart and happy because thats the american way.... we gravitate towards somalia's style of government, because that seems like a hot place to live.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

i know, but what are they beating us in? should we aspire to be hong kong? You want to model the US after hong kong?

SoBaus

No we don't need to model anything out of Hong Kong. It's just they followed a great free-market system for a long time, and worked perfectly. We continually kept changing our system since the beginning of the 20th century and has set us with a flawed want-to-be Capitalist system that is failing. Much of Hong Kong's problems also stems because it is a small island. Imagine if we followed a proper free market system with the amount of space we had for growth in our nation from the 20th century. Sadly, we can't go back to that, and most likely, never can.

the good ole days of buildings with no fire escapes, that burn hundreds of women to death. Amen. Stupid goverment getting in the way.

I'm not talking about things like that. Things like child labor laws, anti-trust laws, are good. The problems started with the neo-conservative policies and wasting our nations money on other nations and worthless wars, the Nixon Shock, etc..

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

No we don't need to model anything out of Hong Kong. It's just they followed a great free-market system for a long time, and worked perfectly. We continually kept changing our system since the beginning of the 20th century and has set us with a flawed want-to-be Capitalist system that is failing. Much of Hong Kong's problems also stems because it is a small island. Imagine if we followed a proper free market system with the amount of space we had for growth in our nation from the 20th century. Sadly, we can't go back to that, and most likely, never can.

taj7575

the good ole days of buildings with no fire escapes, that burn hundreds of women to death. Amen. Stupid goverment getting in the way.

I'm not talking about things like that. Things like child labor laws, anti-trust laws, are good. The problems started with the neo-conservative policies and wasting our nations money on other nations and worthless wars, the Nixon Shock, etc..

like the maine republicans that want to abolish child labor laws? bring us back to the good ole days? what do you think republicans want? ron paul, the old libertarian champion voted in FAVOR OF OIL SUBSIDIES. Despite claiming he was against subsidies. Party is a joke. Even the libertarian leader sells out.

The Harper (Conservative) government of Canada is doing pretty well. Harper is no libertarian though.

i can point to a "socialist" nation with better life expectency, one with better education, one with better infant mortality rates one with cheaper healthcare.

But no libertarian can ever point to a nation with better anything. Because libertarian nations are trash heaps. This is called logical thinking... if the opposition can point out statistics, and you got nothing... you are WRONG.

Its like me saying 2+2=4 and i can show you.... but you say "2+2=5 but I cant prove it, just gottta trust me". A logical human being goes with the guy that can show his proof.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Canada?

Espada12

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

Canadian conservative != American conservative. Canadian and British conservatives are far closer to the dems than the repubs. Winston Churchill himself kept the NHS in place in Britain even when he had the chance to kill it before it took off; the dems don't even support socialized health care. The us poltical spectrum is much farther to the right than any other western country's spectrum. There is no mainstream conservative party in any western country as radical as the repubs and the dems would be considered right wingers in most other western countries.

i can point to a "socialist" nation with better life expectency, one with better education, one with better infant mortality rates one with cheaper healthcare.

But no libertarian can ever point to a nation with better anything. Because libertarian nations are trash heaps. This is called logical thinking... if the opposition can point out statistics, and you got nothing... you are WRONG.

SoBaus

Canadian conservative != American conservative. Canadian and British conservatives are far closer to the dems than the repubs. Winston Churchill himself kept the NHS in place in Britain even when he had the chance to kill it before it took off; the dems don't even support socialized health care.

Former_Slacker

I assume he was referring to world wide conservative governments, considering he mentioned "socialist" countries in those terms. Even still economically, or at least what I remember of the thatcher administration, british conservatives are more in line with American conservatives.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

Former_Slacker

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

Canadian conservative != American conservative. Canadian and British conservatives are far closer to the dems than the repubs. Winston Churchill himself kept the NHS in place in Britain even when he had the chance to kill it before it took off; the dems don't even support socialized health care. The us poltical spectrum is much farther to the right than any other western country's spectrum. There is no mainstream conservative party in any western country as radical as the repubs and the dems would be considered right wingers in most other western countries.

that was back when i was pretending to be sarcastic... now that i roped in the libertarians... its full on logic slaughter.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

the good ole days of buildings with no fire escapes, that burn hundreds of women to death. Amen. Stupid goverment getting in the way.

SoBaus

I'm not talking about things like that. Things like child labor laws, anti-trust laws, are good. The problems started with the neo-conservative policies and wasting our nations money on other nations and worthless wars, the Nixon Shock, etc..

like the maine republicans that want to abolish child labor laws? bring us back to the good ole days? what do you think republicans want? ron paul, the old libertarian champion voted in FAVOR OF OIL SUBSIDIES. Despite claiming he was against subsidies. Party is a joke. Even the libertarian leader sells out.

I'm not a republican, so I don't know why you are throwing these things at me like I am. But to reply to that, it's more than "abolish child labor" laws. It's probably there to remove the "under the table" pay, which a lot of children do anyways. The lower minimum wage for 180 days may also come from the fact that the minimum wage is already hard enough for many stores to pay.

Dealing with the Ron Paul situation, the bill was apparently for reducing taxes, which from a libertarian perspective, is what is right.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

I'm not talking about things like that. Things like child labor laws, anti-trust laws, are good. The problems started with the neo-conservative policies and wasting our nations money on other nations and worthless wars, the Nixon Shock, etc..

taj7575

like the maine republicans that want to abolish child labor laws? bring us back to the good ole days? what do you think republicans want? ron paul, the old libertarian champion voted in FAVOR OF OIL SUBSIDIES. Despite claiming he was against subsidies. Party is a joke. Even the libertarian leader sells out.

I'm not a republican, so I don't know why you are throwing these things at me like I am. But to reply to that, it's more than "abolish child labor" laws. It's probably there to remove the "under the table" pay, which a lot of children do anyways. The lower minimum wage for 180 days may also come from the fact that the minimum wage is already hard enough for many stores to pay.

Dealing with the Ron Paul situation, the bill was apparently for reducing taxes, which from a libertarian perspective, is what is right.

lol ron paul tried to bill the subsidies as a tax credit, because oil companies pay taxes (as in if we are neighbors and my name starts with an A and yours doesnt i get $100 off my taxes). Of course when exxon pays no taxes, they still get subsidies.

Hes a fraud, it was a lie... dont defend him. Subsidies are not tax credits.

I can admit libertarians want to implement a system with no F'n idea what might happen. Socialist bastion like finland are smarter than us, and happier than us. But we want to avoid being smart and happy because thats the american way.... we gravitate towards somalia's style of government, because that seems like a hot place to live.

SoBaus

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

I can admit libertarians want to implement a system with no F'n idea what might happen. Socialist bastion like finland are smarter than us, and happier than us. But we want to avoid being smart and happy because thats the american way.... we gravitate towards somalia's style of government, because that seems like a hot place to live.

airshocker

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

SoBaus

There are no libertarian nations. They simply don't exist. And no one wants a fully libertarian government anyway. We want mixtures that protect the things we hold dear.

[QUOTE="Former_Slacker"]

Canadian conservative != American conservative. Canadian and British conservatives are far closer to the dems than the repubs. Winston Churchill himself kept the NHS in place in Britain even when he had the chance to kill it before it took off; the dems don't even support socialized health care.

Espada12

I assume he was referring to world wide conservative governments, considering he mentioned "socialist" countries in those terms. Even still economically, or at least what I remember of the thatcher administration, british conservatives are more in line with American conservatives.

I don't follow British politics but thatcher was an ideologue; that and I don't think her group is in power any more. She's not that fondly thought of in the UK either.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

like the maine republicans that want to abolish child labor laws? bring us back to the good ole days? what do you think republicans want? ron paul, the old libertarian champion voted in FAVOR OF OIL SUBSIDIES. Despite claiming he was against subsidies. Party is a joke. Even the libertarian leader sells out.

SoBaus

I'm not a republican, so I don't know why you are throwing these things at me like I am. But to reply to that, it's more than "abolish child labor" laws. It's probably there to remove the "under the table" pay, which a lot of children do anyways. The lower minimum wage for 180 days may also come from the fact that the minimum wage is already hard enough for many stores to pay.

Dealing with the Ron Paul situation, the bill was apparently for reducing taxes, which from a libertarian perspective, is what is right.

lol ron paul tried to bill the subsidies as a tax credit, because oil companies pay taxes (as in if we are neighbors and my name starts with an A and yours doesnt i get $100 off my taxes). Of course when exxon pays no taxes, they still get subsidies.

Hes a fraud, it was a lie... dont defend him. Subsidies are not tax credits.

So you think after all these years of voting against it, he has suddenly decided to vote for it this year and completely change his plan? It was a vote for tax cuts, not oil subsidies, and if you read even a little about Ron Paul, you will know he will do anything for tax cuts, and believes income tax is morally wrong. That is not me agreeing with Ron Paul, just telling you his beliefs, and why he voted for the tax cut, NOT oil subsidies. He's not going to vote against them all his life and suddenly decided to change it, there was much more to it than that ;)

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Canada?

Espada12

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

Switzerland has a very libertarian, free market, and very unregulated styIe.

You clearly know nothing about libertarianism, but that's to be expected since most people seem to jump to conclusions when they hear the name anyway.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Former_Slacker"]

Canadian conservative != American conservative. Canadian and British conservatives are far closer to the dems than the repubs. Winston Churchill himself kept the NHS in place in Britain even when he had the chance to kill it before it took off; the dems don't even support socialized health care.

Former_Slacker

I assume he was referring to world wide conservative governments, considering he mentioned "socialist" countries in those terms. Even still economically, or at least what I remember of the thatcher administration, british conservatives are more in line with American conservatives.

I don't follow British politics but thatcher was an ideologue; that and I don't think her group is in power any more. She's not that fondly thought of in the UK either.

Polls really meant nothing regarding to her, because when it came time for election she always won. Though her removal was in a very aggressive fashion but still I wasn't pointing her out specifically I was talking about the conservatives as a whole, I was merely pointing out their line of thinking.

The way I see it there's a reason why every developed country isn't really libertarian/conservative with respect to the government. Any successful true free market, laizze-faire economy is probably either going to devolve into corporatism, evolve into some form of a social democracy, or move on to some mixture of the two. Any true free market system probably isn't going to last that long.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

airshocker

There are no libertarian nations. They simply don't exist. And no one wants a fully libertarian government anyway. We want mixtures that protect the things we hold dear.

libertarian nations did exist, in feudal times, when you had noble and serfs... granted it wasnt a democracy... but it was an economy ruled by money... which is essentially the conservative ideal.

dont get me wrong i want to down a shot of whiskey while pointing a gun at you, smoking a cigar, and drinking salt. Im a civil libertarian myself.... but on economic issues, libertarians are out of their mind.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

I can admit libertarians want to implement a system with no F'n idea what might happen. Socialist bastion like finland are smarter than us, and happier than us. But we want to avoid being smart and happy because thats the american way.... we gravitate towards somalia's style of government, because that seems like a hot place to live.

SoBaus

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

There are none on a larger scale because it really hasn't been tried before. I myself am a Libertarian and am American so I feel that if we stopped funding big businesses and if we got the hell out of Afghanistan, we could be going in a much, much better direction. Not to mention reducing taxation as well.

libertarian nations did exist, in feudal times, when you had noble and serfs... granted it wasnt a democracy... but it was an economy ruled by money... which is essentially the conservative ideal.

dont get me wrong i want to down a shot of whiskey while pointing a gun at you, smoking a cigar, and drinking salt. Im a civil libertarian myself.... but on economic issues, libertarians are out of their mind.

SoBaus

Who cares when they existed? They don't exist now.

Economic issues are where those with libertarian leanings shine. Of course the government still has to regulate certain things. But for the most part, they don't.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

pretty sure canada is communist, you pinko

Ace6301

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

That's assuming we use the American example as our reference. Sure, Harper is left of most Republicans. But I'd just say Republicans are just that much more right leaning. Still conservatives. Plus if we want to get technical, Harper and a lot of Republicans these days are neo-liberals, not really conservatives anyhow. When I think of real conservative governments, theocratic or monarchist governments come to mind.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

I can admit libertarians want to implement a system with no F'n idea what might happen. Socialist bastion like finland are smarter than us, and happier than us. But we want to avoid being smart and happy because thats the american way.... we gravitate towards somalia's style of government, because that seems like a hot place to live.

SoBaus

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

Liberetarians don't like the restrictions and burden that the federal government puts on the economy.

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country. The government makes it hard for entrepreneuers to start their business and keep it going.

Government limits competition and creates inefficiency, and it is so big now that it puts a real burden on the economy.

You don't have to be a genius to see the negative effect it has on the country as a whole.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

Saturos3091

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

so we should throw out statistics in favor of second hand anectdotal evidence? seems more reliable.