What's wrong with taxing the rich to feed the poor?

Great Read FragStains

FragStains, you are the man.

The entire liberal economic policy revolves around this idea:

Take wealth away from those people who have earned it, and give it to those people who have not earned it.

[QUOTE="FragStains"]That's the issue. Who are you to decide what ANYONE can do with their own money? If you earn your own money, you can buy whatever you want. Life isn't fair. It isn't the government's job to rebalance the universe so that no one suffers. It's called reality.Video_Game_King

However, your post seems to bring up a few questions and issues. Like do these guys earn their money, or do they inherit it? And can't we apply that logic to the poor? Do they really deserve to be poor, or were they thrust into that position by fate? And on the life isn't fair part, is that natural, or do we make it that way? And if that isn't the government's job, then what the hell is it?

The govts job is to protect the rights of citizens. If someone steals my property, the govt is supposed to help me get it back, then punish the thief.

We have rights of negative obligation in this country, not rights of positive obligation. For example, I have freedom of religion. The rest of you are not obligated to build me a church, just obligated to leave me alone to practice my faith. This idea that we have a right to health care, a living wage, food, clothing, shelter, all put an obligation on the rest of us to provide it for you.

The entire liberal economic policy revolves around this idea:

Take wealth away from those people who have earned it, and give it to those people who have not earned it.

The_Laser08

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

[QUOTE="FragStains"]That's the issue. Who are you to decide what ANYONE can do with their own money? If you earn your own money, you can buy whatever you want. Life isn't fair. It isn't the government's job to rebalance the universe so that no one suffers. It's called reality.collegeboy64

However, your post seems to bring up a few questions and issues. Like do these guys earn their money, or do they inherit it? And can't we apply that logic to the poor? Do they really deserve to be poor, or were they thrust into that position by fate? And on the life isn't fair part, is that natural, or do we make it that way? And if that isn't the government's job, then what the hell is it?

The govts job is to protect the rights of citizens. If someone steals my property, the govt is supposed to help me get it back, then punish the thief.

We have rights of negative obligation in this country, not rights of positive obligation. For example, I have freedom of religion. The rest of you are not obligated to build me a church, just obligated to leave me alone to practice my faith. This idea that we have a right to health care, a living wage, food, clothing, shelter, all put an obligation on the rest of us to provide it for you.

But what happens when our rights are taken away? We suffer, of course. By protecting those rights, happiness is protected. Suffering is staved off. And what exactly do you mean "build me a church"? Like that would be a bad thing? You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that.

oh please..dont be giving us that self reliance BS, the system is designed to opress the poor. the rich should be heavily taxed but unfortunatly the rich are also in control so people will continue to suffer in poverty.x_Martyr_x

Yes, the poor are the rich's whipping boys. It's all the rich people's fault people are poor.

We should spread their wealth amongst the poor. That is the only way to educate the poor on how to make money, by giving them someone else's. This makes complete sense and is totally fair for everyone.

some don't deserve it,

some don't work because they're lazy,

why should we give free healthcare to people who smoke/eat/drink themselves to death?

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

Seriously its scary how much some peoples opinions reflect those of what many held before and during the great depression.

You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that. Video_Game_King

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

htekemerald

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

[QUOTE="The_Laser08"]

The entire liberal economic policy revolves around this idea:

Take wealth away from those people who have earned it, and give it to those people who have not earned it.

Vandalvideo

Ok, so for fair competition (the free market) to work, people do need to have equal access to the opportunity to succeed. Which they essentially do in this country. I'm not a 100% libertarian because I believe that the government should be there to provide a good education even to people living in the inner cities. Still, this is almost a minor detail. 90% of my graduating class in high school will probably never really produce anything of value or achieve any kind of success, and I find it to be completely criminal that someone like me who is striving towards success should have to pay for their welfare. People have this notion that coming from a wealthy background guarantees you succes, and that coming from a poor background means you will always be poor. That mentality is the root of the entire problem. With the exception of those extremely few trust fund kids that will probably never have to work, people all start from the same place in life.

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

markop2003

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

Ok, so for fair competition (the free market) to work, people do need to have equal access to the opportunity to succeed. Which they essentially do in this country. I'm not a 100% libertarian because I believe that the government should be there to provide a good education even to people living in the inner cities. Still, this is almost a minor detail. 90% of my graduating class in high school will probably never really produce anything of value or achieve any kind of success, and I find it to be completely criminal that someone like me who is striving towards success should have to pay for their welfare. People have this notion that coming from a wealthy background guarantees you succes, and that coming from a poor background means you will always be poor. That mentality is the root of the entire problem. With the exception of those extremely few trust fund kids that will probably never have to work, people all start from the same place in life. The_Laser08

If I'm making 6 figures, I could care less about a tax increase just for me. I really doubt that taxes would bring me down to something like 50k a year also.

If Im making that type of money, then I dont mind giving some away to help better the country for the future generations, especially for my family.

RedMasterDX

shouldn't it be yyour choice though, charities exist for a reason, also if you give it to a charity you can choose what you suppport

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that. Vandalvideo

That's more on limiting the size of the church itself, not on the building of it. I can still build it if I own the land and it is zoned for those purposes.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

htekemerald

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

[QUOTE="The_Laser08"]Ok, so for fair competition (the free market) to work, people do need to have equal access to the opportunity to succeed. Which they essentially do in this country. I'm not a 100% libertarian because I believe that the government should be there to provide a good education even to people living in the inner cities. Still, this is almost a minor detail. 90% of my graduating class in high school will probably never really produce anything of value or achieve any kind of success, and I find it to be completely criminal that someone like me who is striving towards success should have to pay for their welfare. People have this notion that coming from a wealthy background guarantees you succes, and that coming from a poor background means you will always be poor. That mentality is the root of the entire problem. With the exception of those extremely few trust fund kids that will probably never have to work, people all start from the same place in life. Vandalvideo

so why doesn't government try to solve the problem at its source instead of providing free handouts to everyone who seems to be a victim of the system? Welfare will never remarkably improve the lives of the people who receive it. Instead we could try to make sure that kids have access to a good education and not put such an incredible tax burden on people who have managed to succeed.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that. Video_Game_King

That's more on limiting the size of the church itself, not on the building of it. I can still build it if I own the land and it is zoned for those purposes.

Man the depressing thing about this thread it's that people are assuming that just because someone is poor, they are lazy good for nothing scoundrels, and honestly i find that very offending since i know dozen of people who work as hard or harder than the rich of this country, and the only reason they are still poor are the circumstances that they were born to.Oscar-Wilde

isn't that the education system failing them then?

if they had a good education they could climb the ladder alot easier

so why doesn't government try to solve the problem at its source instead of providing free handouts to everyone who seems to be a victim of the system? Welfare will never remarkably improve the lives of the people who receive it. Instead we could try to make sure that kids have access to a good education and not put such an incredible tax burden on people who have managed to succeed. The_Laser08

[QUOTE="The_Laser08"]Ok, so for fair competition (the free market) to work, people do need to have equal access to the opportunity to succeed. Which they essentially do in this country. I'm not a 100% libertarian because I believe that the government should be there to provide a good education even to people living in the inner cities. Still, this is almost a minor detail. 90% of my graduating class in high school will probably never really produce anything of value or achieve any kind of success, and I find it to be completely criminal that someone like me who is striving towards success should have to pay for their welfare. People have this notion that coming from a wealthy background guarantees you succes, and that coming from a poor background means you will always be poor. That mentality is the root of the entire problem. With the exception of those extremely few trust fund kids that will probably never have to work, people all start from the same place in life. Vandalvideo

that means they need better education system not handouts

[QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

markop2003

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

[QUOTE="The_Laser08"]so why doesn't government try to solve the problem at its source instead of providing free handouts to everyone who seems to be a victim of the system? Welfare will never remarkably improve the lives of the people who receive it. Instead we could try to make sure that kids have access to a good education and not put such an incredible tax burden on people who have managed to succeed. Vandalvideo

Yep I think we can both agree on this. I tend to vote republican based on the principles they ought to represent, although honestly I'm becomming awfully fed up with the GOP. The problem here is our two party electoral system... which needs to be reformed... but that's an argument for a different day.

[QUOTE="Oscar-Wilde"]Man the depressing thing about this thread it's that people are assuming that just because someone is poor, they are lazy good for nothing scoundrels, and honestly i find that very offending since i know dozen of people who work as hard or harder than the rich of this country, and the only reason they are still poor are the circumstances that they were born to.markop2003

isn't that the education system failing them then?

if they had a good education they could climb the ladder alot easier

Aye, public schools and their flawed Prussian schooling system. I have always said that they are the root of all the ignorance on today's western world.

[QUOTE="RedMasterDX"]

If I'm making 6 figures, I could care less about a tax increase just for me. I really doubt that taxes would bring me down to something like 50k a year also.

If Im making that type of money, then I dont mind giving some away to help better the country for the future generations, especially for my family.

markop2003

shouldn't it be yyour choice though, charities exist for a reason, also if you give it to a charity you can choose what you suppport

[QUOTE="collegeboy64"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

[QUOTE="FragStains"]That's the issue. Who are you to decide what ANYONE can do with their own money? If you earn your own money, you can buy whatever you want. Life isn't fair. It isn't the government's job to rebalance the universe so that no one suffers. It's called reality.Video_Game_King

However, your post seems to bring up a few questions and issues. Like do these guys earn their money, or do they inherit it? And can't we apply that logic to the poor? Do they really deserve to be poor, or were they thrust into that position by fate? And on the life isn't fair part, is that natural, or do we make it that way? And if that isn't the government's job, then what the hell is it?

The govts job is to protect the rights of citizens. If someone steals my property, the govt is supposed to help me get it back, then punish the thief.

We have rights of negative obligation in this country, not rights of positive obligation. For example, I have freedom of religion. The rest of you are not obligated to build me a church, just obligated to leave me alone to practice my faith. This idea that we have a right to health care, a living wage, food, clothing, shelter, all put an obligation on the rest of us to provide it for you.

But what happens when our rights are taken away? We suffer, of course. By protecting those rights, happiness is protected. Suffering is staved off. And what exactly do you mean "build me a church"? Like that would be a bad thing? You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that.

Wow, I had to read your post a few times to try to make sense out of it. Not sure I have yet, but I'll try to respond.

First if my rights are "taken away" by an individual, the govt is obligated to help me regain them, like my theft of property example. If, on the other hand, my rights are taken away by govt, then I either have to put up with it or rebel or find another country to live in.

Second: let me try the "build me a church" thing this way. YOU, my friend, have a right to freedom of religion. I am NOT obligated to build you a church to worship in. I am obligated to leave you alone in the practice of your faith. You have freedom of speech. That does not obligate me to provide you with a microphone, a bull horn, a radio station, a newspaper, or any other means of getting your message out. It does obligate me to NOT beat you to a pulp because I might not like what you say.

On the other hand, if you would like to build me a church, please do so. Let me know when you are finished and what the address of my new church is so I can call a realtor and sell the sucker.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="The_Laser08"]Ok, so for fair competition (the free market) to work, people do need to have equal access to the opportunity to succeed. Which they essentially do in this country. I'm not a 100% libertarian because I believe that the government should be there to provide a good education even to people living in the inner cities. Still, this is almost a minor detail. 90% of my graduating class in high school will probably never really produce anything of value or achieve any kind of success, and I find it to be completely criminal that someone like me who is striving towards success should have to pay for their welfare. People have this notion that coming from a wealthy background guarantees you succes, and that coming from a poor background means you will always be poor. That mentality is the root of the entire problem. With the exception of those extremely few trust fund kids that will probably never have to work, people all start from the same place in life. The_Laser08

so why doesn't government try to solve the problem at its source instead of providing free handouts to everyone who seems to be a victim of the system? Welfare will never remarkably improve the lives of the people who receive it. Instead we could try to make sure that kids have access to a good education and not put such an incredible tax burden on people who have managed to succeed.

And this is an idea many have been pushing for.

This issue imo, draws a direct parallel with people who want to outlaw guns to lower guncrime.

They are to busy reacting to a problem then dealing with it; the point of any welfare program should be to eliminate itself.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

htekemerald

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

how does it get the goverment thier taxes if someone dosn't pay them?

personally i'ld try to have woorking prisons where prisoners have to earn their keep,though that would be a last resort, they'ld get all the warnings and such that go with not paying taxes first

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]You may not want it, but we can build it and you have no say in the matter. Doesn't matter if we give you the church as a gift or if we worship you in that church, you can't do anything about that. Vandalvideo

That's more on limiting the size of the church itself, not on the building of it. I can still build it if I own the land and it is zoned for those purposes.

But not on purely religious grounds. The city has no right to say, "Your religion is wrong" and deny you the land based purely on that. Cite one thing in that case which is contrary to what I have said. *prepares to look like a moron*

But not on purely religious grounds. The city has no right to say, "Your religion is wrong" and deny you the land based purely on that. Cite one thing in that case which is contrary to what I have said. *prepares to look like a moron* Video_Game_King

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="RedMasterDX"]

If I'm making 6 figures, I could care less about a tax increase just for me. I really doubt that taxes would bring me down to something like 50k a year also.

If Im making that type of money, then I dont mind giving some away to help better the country for the future generations, especially for my family.

htekemerald

shouldn't it be yyour choice though, charities exist for a reason, also if you give it to a charity you can choose what you suppport

well if the working class isn't earning enouugh to survive then the minimum wage should be raised, they shouldn't be given handouts

and the education system should allow people to climb the ladder and not just stick where their paarents are

[QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

markop2003

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

how does it get the goverment thier taxes if someone dosn't pay them?

personally i'ld try to have woorking prisons where prisoners have to earn their keep,though that would be a last resort, they'ld get all the warnings and such that go with not paying taxes first

You use force to take value from someone who created it and give it to someone who didin't.Frattracide

Well that depends on the labour of the individual. Do the richest people earn the all of their wealth through their own labour? No they usually own the means of production and it is workers who produce their wealth.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

htekemerald

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

how does it get the goverment thier taxes if someone dosn't pay them?

personally i'ld try to have woorking prisons where prisoners have to earn their keep,though that would be a last resort, they'ld get all the warnings and such that go with not paying taxes first

basically child support should be taken the same way that taxes are and if you don't pay you suffer the same consequences

[QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="RedMasterDX"]

If I'm making 6 figures, I could care less about a tax increase just for me. I really doubt that taxes would bring me down to something like 50k a year also.

If Im making that type of money, then I dont mind giving some away to help better the country for the future generations, especially for my family.

markop2003

shouldn't it be yyour choice though, charities exist for a reason, also if you give it to a charity you can choose what you suppport

well if the working class isn't earning enouugh to survive then the minimum wage should be raised, they shouldn't be given handouts

and the education system should allow people to climb the ladder and not just stick where their paarents are

[QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

God forbid someone gave say, single mothers working two jobs a break. Maybe if they got off their back and worked a day in their life...

markop2003

if they're single mothers then ofcourse the father should be paying child support if he's not parenting the kid

it should be worked on the same way as taxes are now, if you don't pay them you do the time in jail

how does it get the goverment thier taxes if someone dosn't pay them?

personally i'ld try to have woorking prisons where prisoners have to earn their keep,though that would be a last resort, they'ld get all the warnings and such that go with not paying taxes first

basically child support should be taken the same way that taxes are and if you don't pay you suffer the same consequences

You seem to be not answering the question of what happened to the mother and her childern.htekemerald

basically, the father should pay child support to cover all costs, the mother should not have to work if the father has left, if they are not payed it should be delt with the same punishment that not paying your taxes are

Man the depressing thing about this thread it's that people are assuming that just because someone is poor, they are lazy good for nothing scoundrels, and honestly i find that very offending since i know dozens of people who work as hard or harder than the rich of this country, and the only reason they are still poor are the circumstances that they were born into.Oscar-Wilde

I don't believe all poor people are lazy, good for nothing scoundrels. Like I said in my first post on this thread, poverty is not an economic condition, its a mental condition. I was brought up to believe, and still believe today, that those of us that have success in life have an obligation to ourselves and our community to reach out and help out. What I object to is being forced to do so under threat. Poor people don't need handouts, they need mentors. People in their community to give them a hand up, not a hand out. When charity is local and voluntary the recipient benefits far greater than when it is given from afar by a govt that really doesn't give a crap.

I don't want poor people to stay poor. I want them to learn to succeed so that they can then become a positive force in the lives of others, not a burden on society.

The education system fails when it costs tens of thousands of dollars to climb the ladder and one cannot afford it. Aswell I never claimed I wanted handouts. unless government subsidies to lower higher education costs for everyone is consider a handout. Aswell regaurding healthcare, I am canadian and I laugh whenever someone says that medicare is a handout.htekemerald

well atleast over here the goverment offers low intrest university loans which i think is perfectly fine so long as the student puts in the work and so gets a well payed job

Free medical care is ok IMO but it seems to give people an excuse not to take care of them selves, people smoke, drink and eat themselves to death, it's their own fault they need the medical care so they should pay for it

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]You seem to be not answering the question of what happened to the mother and her childern.markop2003

basically, the father should pay child support to cover all costs, the mother should not have to work if the father has left, if they are not payed it should be delt with the same punishment that not paying your taxes are

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]But not on purely religious grounds. The city has no right to say, "Your religion is wrong" and deny you the land based purely on that. Cite one thing in that case which is contrary to what I have said. *prepares to look like a moron* Vandalvideo

Really? That doesn't seem right. I imagine they at least have some obligation to give you closure on why you didn't get the permit.

[QUOTE="markop2003"]

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]You seem to be not answering the question of what happened to the mother and her childern.htekemerald

basically, the father should pay child support to cover all costs, the mother should not have to work if the father has left, if they are not payed it should be delt with the same punishment that not paying your taxes are

the mother gets money in the form of child support, the father gets baliefs and such before jail time would appear as a consequence, all i'm saying is that if he dosn't pay he sufferes the same consequences that he'ld suffer if he didn't pay his taxes

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]You seem to be not answering the question of what happened to the mother and her childern.markop2003

basically, the father should pay child support to cover all costs, the mother should not have to work if the father has left, if they are not payed it should be delt with the same punishment that not paying your taxes are

If I found out I would wash my hands of the child. I would say "if you have that child it is your responsibility alone".

It's only fair the way I see it. The guy has the least control, so why does he have to pay?

Maybe that just sounds cold but... imo it's only logical.

[QUOTE="Oscar-Wilde"]Man the depressing thing about this thread it's that people are assuming that just because someone is poor, they are lazy good for nothing scoundrels, and honestly i find that very offending since i know dozens of people who work as hard or harder than the rich of this country, and the only reason they are still poor are the circumstances that they were born into.collegeboy64

I don't believe all poor people are lazy, good for nothing scoundrels. Like I said in my first post on this thread, poverty is not an economic condition, its a mental condition. I was brought up to believe, and still believe today, that those of us that have success in life have an obligation to ourselves and our community to reach out and help out. What I object to is being forced to do so under threat. Poor people don't need handouts, they need mentors. People in their community to give them a hand up, not a hand out. When charity is local and voluntary the recipient benefits far greater than when it is given from afar by a govt that really doesn't give a crap.

I don't want poor people to stay poor. I want them to learn to succeed so that they can then become a positive force in the lives of others, not a burden on society.

But, but, but, that would require effort on OUR parts!!

Nah, let's just increase tax burdens and give out free money. That's a responsible and accountable system, right?