Which religion works better in modern times. Christianity or Islam?

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ShadowMoses900

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#101 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

Both are fine, it comes down to the people that use them. I don't understand why OT hates religion so much, it's just downright stupid. As long as people don't take the religion to extremes then there is no problem, it can be very benefical to society, many great people throughout history were religious such as Martin Luther King Jr, Fredrick Douglass, James Madison, and more.

Though I would choose Christianity, the message is love and tolerance and non judgement. I'm Jewish and not a Christian but Jesus was a very wise man none-the-less.

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#102 Marth6781
Member since 2007 • 2564 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Marth6781"]Since I don't expect anyone on this forum to defend Islam: Islamic scholars introduced the hindu number system to Europe. They also invented algebra... Algebra is an Arabic word. Distillation was discovered by Islamic scholars and so was the basis of cchemistry. During Islams golden age as it is referred to science was advancing at such an incredible rate because Islam actually requires one to learn, question conventional wisdom, grow as a person. Without Islam the beduion(spelling) societies would have never been able to band together and explore Asia. Spark the creation of the silk road into more than a mere trade route. Islam didn't stop there they had the best treatment of women during that time as well. Sadly everyone will look over this and continue the ignorance of Islam and its contributions to the modern world

I agree as well. Islamic empires have had a long history of greedy, and war mongering rulers who've killed the desire to improve society. I'm sure if some of the golden age scholars were alive today they'd be appealed by what's going on in the middle east I won't. Everything you said is correct, but it's also sad as well. At one time, Islam controlled countries were the most progressive and advanced in the world. Unfortunately, that was a long time ago. (Which is why it's also sad.)

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pie-junior

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#103 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts

] Interesting. I learned something new today. You alluded to the impact of the religious zionism adherents (10%). How much of an ability to influence public policy does this group have? There are some pretty small groups of people in the U.S. that have an extremely outsized impact on U.S. public policy afterall.nocoolnamejim

The political system in Israel is the polar opposite of the one in the United states. dozens of parties sit in the Knesset and no single party has held a majority for about 50 years. Example- There are elections in Israel in 9 days. The likud-beitenu, a new mongrel of a party combining the 'ruling' (i'll get there in a moment) likud and the extreme right-winged Israel beitenu are looking at, at best, 35 members in the new parliamentout of a total of 120.

This is a good indication of the fragmentation problem in israel. traditionally- the real 'contest' for power was always between the right winged Likud (in terms of foreign policy and usually in terms of economic policy) and the left winged labour party. this paradigm, and the need of every PM (ever) to set massive coalitions of different parties to rule- while keeping their 'enemies' out, has led to the advent of extortion tactics by interest group parties (using the federalist papers' terminology) as a result of the ease in collapsing governments by unhappy coalition partners. (eg the religious orthodox parties have managed to secure for their constituents social benefits beyond anything a secular person could ever attain- living expenses for those who have devoted their life to studying torah as a profession; new housing projects aimed soley at orthodox jews, complete exempt from military service etc. etc. only really stemmed, to a degree, by the Israeli supreme court which has made a habit to himself of making giant leaps of judicial activism as a result of the political makeup)

That's how 'religious zionists' (ie religious persons who are not of anti-zionists origins) have managed to gain the influence that they have. Israel is prob the only country in the world where the majority is disenfranchised.

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ghoklebutter

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#104 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
Christianity. MrPraline
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Bucked20

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#105 Bucked20
Member since 2011 • 6651 Posts
oh look another religion thread
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GazaAli

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#106 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.
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#107 LJS9502_basic  Online
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They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.GazaAli
Mainstreamed religion?:lol:

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Darkman2007

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#108 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"]They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.

I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.
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#109 Toph_Girl250
Member since 2008 • 48978 Posts
Now, see, this just PROVES the need for more third parties in religious politics.nocoolnamejim
New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.
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#110 jim_shorts
Member since 2006 • 7320 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Now, see, this just PROVES the need for more third parties in religious politics.Toph_Girl250
New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.

When you say fencing...
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#111 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]] Interesting. I learned something new today. You alluded to the impact of the religious zionism adherents (10%). How much of an ability to influence public policy does this group have? There are some pretty small groups of people in the U.S. that have an extremely outsized impact on U.S. public policy afterall.pie-junior

The political system in Israel is the polar opposite of the one in the United states. dozens of parties sit in the Knesset and no single party has held a majority for about 50 years. Example- There are elections in Israel in 9 days. The likud-beitenu, a new mongrel of a party combining the 'ruling' (i'll get there in a moment) likud and the extreme right-winged Israel beitenu are looking at, at best, 35 members in the new parliamentout of a total of 120.

This is a good indication of the fragmentation problem in israel. traditionally- the real 'contest' for power was always between the right winged Likud (in terms of foreign policy and usually in terms of economic policy) and the left winged labour party. this paradigm, and the need of every PM (ever) to set massive coalitions of different parties to rule- while keeping their 'enemies' out, has led to the advent of extortion tactics by interest group parties (using the federalist papers' terminology) as a result of the ease in collapsing governments by unhappy coalition partners. (eg the religious orthodox parties have managed to secure for their constituents social benefits beyond anything a secular person could ever attain- living expenses for those who have devoted their life to studying torah as a profession; new housing projects aimed soley at orthodox jews, complete exempt from military service etc. etc. only really stemmed, to a degree, by the Israeli supreme court which has made a habit to himself of making giant leaps of judicial activism as a result of the political makeup)

That's how 'religious zionists' (ie religious persons who are not of anti-zionists origins) have managed to gain the influence that they have. Israel is prob the only country in the world where the majority is disenfranchised.

Interesting. It makes sense when I follow your argument all the way to the end and get the full explanation but it's counter-intuitive in a lot of ways with what I've thought usually happens when you have lots of different political parties. Typically as I understand it, when that happens (as I'm sure you know...using you as sounding board and also speaking to the crowd here) you end up with MORE moderation rather than less because whichever party wins needs to make compromises and allowances in order to build a ruling coalition/majority. In other words, if you go too far in one direction or another, some other coalition snips off your unsatisfied members and you lose power. But it sounds like in this particular case, it's a tweaking of the "mobilizing the base" strategy that I've seen employed at times in the U.S. Turn out that 10% in large numbers and snip off JUST ENOUGH others to hold power.
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#112 GazaAli
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[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.

I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.

Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc
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#113 nocoolnamejim
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[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Now, see, this just PROVES the need for more third parties in religious politics.Toph_Girl250
New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.

What's god's position on harems? I'm willing to get married multiple times if it makes the god of your church happy and I'll be kind and courteous to every one of my wives.
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LJS9502_basic

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#114 LJS9502_basic  Online
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[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.

I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.

Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc

No Christianity was not intended to be legalistic. It was a moral guideline for individuals.
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#115 LJS9502_basic  Online
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[QUOTE="Toph_Girl250"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Now, see, this just PROVES the need for more third parties in religious politics.nocoolnamejim
New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.

What's god's position on harems? I'm willing to get married multiple times if it makes the god of your church happy and I'll be kind and courteous to every one of my wives.

Is this ChiliDragon approved? Er...I hope I have the right name.:P
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Darkman2007

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#116 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]They in theory should perform equally. In practice however, Christianity seems to perform better since its a mainstreamed religion that loses much of its identity in its pursuit to survive and appeal to masses. My two cents, no need to rage.

I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.

Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc

well , if we are talking about traditional Judaism (which would be mostly Orthodox Judaism , in all its variations) , yes, it is legalistic, I mean , the whole original conception of Judaism was as a religion for a people , Moses himself set up institutions like the judges to deal with this, and warned against having a king. there are essentially two components to it, the written law (what one would call the Torah) , and there is the oral law (which to simplify things, was encoded in the Talmud some 1700 years ago) , the oral law was pretty much explanations on how to interpret those laws and apply them to various modern situations (you could on some levels compare it to the Hadith), Rabbis are really just scholars/teachers, they interpret laws. so the short answer would be , yes, Judaism does have a more legalistic/national sense to it, certainly more than Christianity, though I would say the Jewish experience in Europe influenced things.
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Toph_Girl250

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#117 Toph_Girl250
Member since 2008 • 48978 Posts
[QUOTE="Toph_Girl250"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Now, see, this just PROVES the need for more third parties in religious politics.nocoolnamejim
New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.

What's god's position on harems? I'm willing to get married multiple times if it makes the god of your church happy and I'll be kind and courteous to every one of my wives.

Not sure what harems are, but getting married multiple times is a no-no, should only get married once, otherwise you'll run into some hilarious bad luck. :P Second Marriages are allowed but you must perform another ritual involving dare-devil stunts. If you're nice enough to women, then a golden perfume bottle trophy is awarded to you. ;)
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#118 wis3boi
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the christians did a better job adapting, but still needs a lot of work

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#119 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Toph_Girl250"]New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.LJS9502_basic
What's god's position on harems? I'm willing to get married multiple times if it makes the god of your church happy and I'll be kind and courteous to every one of my wives.

Is this ChiliDragon approved? Er...I hope I have the right name.:P

You've got the name right. Application has been sent in. Approval is pending. I figure if I can get the almighty on my side it might expedite the approval process.
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Darkman2007

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#120 Darkman2007
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[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.

Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc

No Christianity was not intended to be legalistic. It was a moral guideline for individuals.

which is what seperates it from Islam , and Judaism (albeit Orthodox Judaism , as opposed to something like reform)
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GazaAli

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#121 GazaAli
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[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I think its because of the nature of the two , Christianity , at its core, is not political , yes the Church has been involved in politics, but I don't think its in its DNA , so to speak. Islam is more legalistic, correct me if Im wrong, but there is a bigger emphasis on how a society, and a people should be run , its based on laws.

Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc

well , if we are talking about traditional Judaism (which would be mostly Orthodox Judaism , in all its variations) , yes, it is legalistic, I mean , the whole original conception of Judaism was as a religion for a people , Moses himself set up institutions like the judges to deal with this, and warned against having a king. there are essentially two components to it, the written law (what one would call the Torah) , and there is the oral law (which to simplify things, was encoded in the Talmud some 1700 years ago) , the oral law was pretty much explanations on how to interpret those laws and apply them to various modern situations (you could on some levels compare it to the Hadith), Rabbis are really just scholars/teachers, they interpret laws. so the short answer would be , yes, Judaism does have a more legalistic/national sense to it, certainly more than Christianity, though I would say the Jewish experience in Europe influenced things.

Interesting as usual thanks.
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pie-junior

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#122 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts

when he says Israel has alot of athiests , its not as simple as that, its not as though the term secular and athiest are the same.Darkman2007

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

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#123 Darkman2007
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[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]when he says Israel has alot of athiests , its not as simple as that, its not as though the term secular and athiest are the same.pie-junior

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US
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#124 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

pie and darkman keep arguing about this point.

pull out some polls you guys

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#125 BluRayHiDef
Member since 2009 • 10839 Posts

Both of them are bollocks, but Islam is the worst of the two, so I choose Christianity.

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#126 nocoolnamejim
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[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Toph_Girl250"]New Religion: God is a Female, only go to church when you feel like it, be kind and courteous to women, get married before age 30 otherwise you must perform a ritual where you must show off your fencing skills.Toph_Girl250
What's god's position on harems? I'm willing to get married multiple times if it makes the god of your church happy and I'll be kind and courteous to every one of my wives.

Not sure what harems are, but getting married multiple times is a no-no, should only get married once, otherwise you'll run into some hilarious bad luck. :P Second Marriages are allowed but you must perform another ritual involving dare-devil stunts. If you're nice enough to women, then a golden perfume bottle trophy is awarded to you. ;)

Harem Depending on who you talk to, keeping a Harem was either: A. A politically expedient way for the ruler of large empires to show that they wouldn't do any favoritism. (Like if Obama had a wife from each of the 50 states. "See Alabama? Just because you're a bunch of dumb, redneck hicks it doesn't mean that I'm going to be mean to you. My favorite wife is from Alabama!") B. A politically expedient way of keeping subject provinces in their place by reminding them of their vassal status and making them send the important female relatives to live with the ruler as well treated hostages...so long as the vassals behaved. (Like if Obama told Governor Bobby Jindahl of Louisiana, "Your daughter is a very nice girl. It would be a shame if anything happened to her because you're such a tool.") or, my favorite C. A perk of being the Grand High Poobah. ("It's good to be the king!") [spoiler] It was also considered something of an important practical consideration back during the age of hereditary rule but before modern medicine. Keeping as many "buns in the oven" as possible increased the odds of the Grand High Poobah having more children, which then increased the chances one of his male children would survive to adulthood so he could become the NEXT Grand High Poobah. [/spoiler]
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#127 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]when he says Israel has alot of athiests , its not as simple as that, its not as though the term secular and athiest are the same.Darkman2007

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.
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#128 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
It should be noted that my description of harems above are of dubious historical accuracy.
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#129 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

pie-junior
I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

secular means being an atheist? JFK would like to have a word with you
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#130 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] Yea I do agree with you on Islam being legalistic. I can't pretend to be an expert in Christian theology but as an Abrahamic religion it also was intended to be a legalistic religion though it got lost in the process a long time ago. Let me ask you this, I know few things about Judaism and how religious Jews in Israel follow a strict code of worship, behavior, beliefs...etc so would you say that Judaism is a legalistic religion too? I mean I know that religious Jews glorify Saturdays, only eat kosher, extreme social conservatives...etc

well , if we are talking about traditional Judaism (which would be mostly Orthodox Judaism , in all its variations) , yes, it is legalistic, I mean , the whole original conception of Judaism was as a religion for a people , Moses himself set up institutions like the judges to deal with this, and warned against having a king. there are essentially two components to it, the written law (what one would call the Torah) , and there is the oral law (which to simplify things, was encoded in the Talmud some 1700 years ago) , the oral law was pretty much explanations on how to interpret those laws and apply them to various modern situations (you could on some levels compare it to the Hadith), Rabbis are really just scholars/teachers, they interpret laws. so the short answer would be , yes, Judaism does have a more legalistic/national sense to it, certainly more than Christianity, though I would say the Jewish experience in Europe influenced things.

Interesting as usual thanks.

thats at least Orthodox Judaism , there is also reform Judaism which was born in Germany some 200 years ago , and was later imported to the US, so to speak , they do have a more......liberal way of looking at it, they tried to throw out the nationalistic aspect of it , along with quite a few things which made Jews stand out in Europe. at the same time, it didn't exist in the Middle East (reform was born out of the enlightenment and seperation of religion and state in Europe, which never happened in the Middle East obviously) , and it doesn't really exist in Israel either.
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GazaAli

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#131 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

pie-junior
I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

Separation of religion and state. Many people would identify themselves as "believers" but want a secular state.
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ShadowMoses900

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#132 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

I'm surprised at the ignorance of people who want religion to die or be outlawed (well not really, this is OT after all). Obviously these people have never read the Constitution which grants Freedom of Religion.

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Toph_Girl250

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#133 Toph_Girl250
Member since 2008 • 48978 Posts
It should be noted that my description of harems above are of dubious historical accuracy.nocoolnamejim
If my religion were to have a particular harem, it would be C. :P
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Darkman2007

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#134 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

pie-junior
I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

most of people in Israel who call themselves Chilonim , still believe in God , still celebrate all of the holidays, its just that people stay in a grey zone of sorts, pick and choose what law they practice and what they don't do. in Israel , being secular means youre not going to the synagouge every day, not so much a belief in God.
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pie-junior

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#135 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

secular means being an atheist? JFK would like to have a word with you

The secular public is maybe (can't be arsed to check) 60% of the population. the atheists are about 20% of the population. I didn't read darkman's last message closely enough.
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Ilovegames1992

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#136 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

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GazaAli

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#137 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="pie-junior"] What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

secular means being an atheist? JFK would like to have a word with you

The secular public is maybe (can't be arsed to check) 60% of the population. the atheists are about 20% of the population. I didn't read darkman's last message closely enough.

43% of Israelis identify themselves as secular.
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wis3boi

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#138 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

Ilovegames1992

No, it gives it. ;)

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ShadowMoses900

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#139 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

No, I mean atheists. even a 15%-25% portion of the population is relatively enormous.

pie-junior

I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

Secular doesn't necessarily mean atheism, a secular society allows freedom of religion and religious expression. It just means not having something like a "state" church so to speak, a secular society can still have religion involved in it, it just doesn't allow for extremes (this goes for militant atheism as well).

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GazaAli

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#140 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

Ilovegames1992
lol
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pie-junior

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#141 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I would say about 20% is about right , although I think at the same time, the idea of who is secular in Israel is different , I would assume to what it means in the US

What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

most of people in Israel who call themselves Chilonim , still believe in God , still celebrate all of the holidays, its just that people stay in a grey zone of sorts, pick and choose what law they practice and what they don't do. in Israel , being secular means youre not going to the synagouge every day, not so much a belief in God.

there isn't really a definite secular-religious paradigm in the american public.
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Ilovegames1992

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#142 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

wis3boi

No, it gives it. ;)

Only if you have a smooth pink arse.

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#143 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

Ilovegames1992
yea this is something i dont like about modern religions. It;s not fair how they can become all 'modernized' and what not. If your Jewish or Christian or Muslim, by god you should be following that book to the bone, stone who needs to be stoned and behead who needs to be beheaded. You cant have it both ways.
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pie-junior

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#144 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
Bossperson, this whole thing reminds me that I pocked fun at you (like a long time ago) for confusing lieberman's party affiliation as being Likud. Turns out, you're a brilliant political analyst with amazing foresight. gg
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Darkman2007

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#145 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"] What else could it possibly mean other than not believing in god.

most of people in Israel who call themselves Chilonim , still believe in God , still celebrate all of the holidays, its just that people stay in a grey zone of sorts, pick and choose what law they practice and what they don't do. in Israel , being secular means youre not going to the synagouge every day, not so much a belief in God.

there isn't really a definite secular-religious paradigm in the american public.

then thats the difference, I would say most secularists in Israel fall into the camp I described, as opposed to the athiest one. that said, they would still want a secular state of course, and generally resent the fact that the Charedim have disproportionate power through the combinot and such , so on that they agree.
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Darkman2007

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#146 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]secular means being an atheist? JFK would like to have a word with youGazaAli
The secular public is maybe (can't be arsed to check) 60% of the population. the atheists are about 20% of the population. I didn't read darkman's last message closely enough.

43% of Israelis identify themselves as secular.

the other 20% he is counting could be referimg to what we call Masortim , ie, traditionalists, basically people who would be secular in most ways, but are exactly that , traditonalists (its not a defined religious movement, more like a social movement) , so sometimes they can be counted as religious.
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#147 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]Bossperson, this whole thing reminds me that I pocked fun at you (like a long time ago) for confusing lieberman's party affiliation as being Likud. Turns out, you're a brilliant political analyst with amazing foresight. gg

lol...thanks but those on the right are always willing to form coalitions when needed.
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pie-junior

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#148 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]secular means being an atheist? JFK would like to have a word with youGazaAli
The secular public is maybe (can't be arsed to check) 60% of the population. the atheists are about 20% of the population. I didn't read darkman's last message closely enough.

43% of Israelis identify themselves as secular.

wikipedia refers to a poll that includes a lot of possibilities that are usually included in the 'secular' square (conservatives; something called 'not very religious conservatives' what ever the fvck that means)- leaving the term secular as including only proper epicureans.
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ShadowMoses900

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#149 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

BossPerson

yea this is something i dont like about modern religions. It;s not fair how they can become all 'modernized' and what not. If your Jewish or Christian or Muslim, by god you should be following that book to the bone, stone who needs to be stoned and behead who needs to be beheaded. You cant have it both ways.

It's called context and understanding certain aspects and cultures at the time. For instance take the Constitution, it defines all men as free but yet the original document allowed slavery, surely you and several others look at the Constitution as the basis of where human rights come from, the value of the document. But surely you are against slavery, so how can this be if you believe in the Constitution then?

Context, see. Obvioulsy it was a different time period, it didn't make slavery right, it never was, but that doesn't change the fundamental values of the Constitution which is freedom. The Torah, The Bible, and Koran are the same way. The context and certain elements may not be right or only make sense within the context of that time and culture, but the fundamental values and message are still legit.

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GazaAli

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#150 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

BossPerson
yea this is something i dont like about modern religions. It;s not fair how they can become all 'modernized' and what not. If your Jewish or Christian or Muslim, by god you should be following that book to the bone, stone who needs to be stoned and behead who needs to be beheaded. You cant have it both ways.

Assuming for the sake of argument that your description is true, if that what some people want so be it. Europe now is a beacon of liberty and progressiveness but no one forced it out of the dark ages, instead European societies developed in a way that led to today's Europe. It is unknown where that Europe is heading in the future but whatever it fate might be, it will again be the result of the development of its societies. The same argument applies to societies that are thought to be extremely religious, backwards...etc. Forcing them out of their current state of affairs will never lead to any good and the history of Europe's imperialism and the the U.S's policies towards such societies speak for themselves.