Which religion works better in modern times. Christianity or Islam?

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GazaAli

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#151 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="pie-junior"] The secular public is maybe (can't be arsed to check) 60% of the population. the atheists are about 20% of the population. I didn't read darkman's last message closely enough.

43% of Israelis identify themselves as secular.

wikipedia refers to a poll that includes a lot of possibilities that are usually included in the 'secular' square (conservatives; something called 'not very religious conservatives' what ever the fvck that means)- leaving the term secular as including only proper epicureans.

According to an article from Haartz: "A survey conducted recently by the Israel Democracy Institute shows a strengthening of religious faith and religious customs among Jews in Israeli society. Intriguingly, the survey shows that even though 43 percent of Jews in Israel style themselves secular, 80 percent of Israeli Jews believe in the existence of God and 69 percent maintain that the Torah and the commandments are God-given. "
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#152 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

Christianity lost its balls recently in history. Islam seems to have kept its morals and stubborness. Good for them.

Christianity just bends over and takes it up the arse now.

ShadowMoses900

yea this is something i dont like about modern religions. It;s not fair how they can become all 'modernized' and what not. If your Jewish or Christian or Muslim, by god you should be following that book to the bone, stone who needs to be stoned and behead who needs to be beheaded. You cant have it both ways.

It's called context and understanding certain aspects and cultures at the time. For instance take the Constitution, it defines all men as free but yet the original document allowed slavery, surely you and several others look at the Constitution as the basis of where human rights come from, the value of the document. But surely you are against slavery, so how can this be if you believe in the Constitution then?

Context, see. Obvioulsy it was a different time period, it didn't make slavery right, it never was, but that doesn't change the fundamental values of the Constitution which is freedom. The Torah, The Bible, and Koran are the same way. The context and certain elements may not be right or only make sense within the context of that time and culture, but the fundamental values and message are still legit.

that post was sort of tongue in cheek
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pie-junior

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#153 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?
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#154 Toph_Girl250
Member since 2008 • 48978 Posts
You've got the name right. Application has been sent in. Approval is pending. I figure if I can get the almighty on my side it might expedite the approval process.nocoolnamejim
What's this about Chili Dragon and an application being sent in? This sounds very interesting, is it a secret? :o
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#155 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]Bossperson, this whole thing reminds me that I pocked fun at you (like a long time ago) for confusing lieberman's party affiliation as being Likud. Turns out, you're a brilliant political analyst with amazing foresight. gg

This made me laugh.
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#156 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]yea this is something i dont like about modern religions. It;s not fair how they can become all 'modernized' and what not. If your Jewish or Christian or Muslim, by god you should be following that book to the bone, stone who needs to be stoned and behead who needs to be beheaded. You cant have it both ways. BossPerson

It's called context and understanding certain aspects and cultures at the time. For instance take the Constitution, it defines all men as free but yet the original document allowed slavery, surely you and several others look at the Constitution as the basis of where human rights come from, the value of the document. But surely you are against slavery, so how can this be if you believe in the Constitution then?

Context, see. Obvioulsy it was a different time period, it didn't make slavery right, it never was, but that doesn't change the fundamental values of the Constitution which is freedom. The Torah, The Bible, and Koran are the same way. The context and certain elements may not be right or only make sense within the context of that time and culture, but the fundamental values and message are still legit.

that post was sort of tongue in cheek

Well still felt it was worth explaining. I like talking to you, you're much more respectful when it comes to religious discussions than a lot of the posters here.

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nocoolnamejim

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#157 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]You've got the name right. Application has been sent in. Approval is pending. I figure if I can get the almighty on my side it might expedite the approval process.Toph_Girl250
What's this about Chili Dragon and an application being sent in? This sounds very interesting, is it a secret? :o

ChiliDragon is the username of both a fellow moderator here on GS and my offline wife. My application is joking with LJS that she hasn't APPROVED my getting a harem yet but I'm still trying to convince her to let me have one. Have even offered her the position of "Most Favored Wife" that she can lord over the harem. She's understandably skeptical.
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#158 deactivated-61cc564148ef4
Member since 2007 • 10909 Posts

Christianity does, but it doesn't matter because the religion itself is still backwards, it's just the people are chaning what the religion actually is.

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#159 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

It's called context and understanding certain aspects and cultures at the time. For instance take the Constitution, it defines all men as free but yet the original document allowed slavery, surely you and several others look at the Constitution as the basis of where human rights come from, the value of the document. But surely you are against slavery, so how can this be if you believe in the Constitution then?

Context, see. Obvioulsy it was a different time period, it didn't make slavery right, it never was, but that doesn't change the fundamental values of the Constitution which is freedom. The Torah, The Bible, and Koran are the same way. The context and certain elements may not be right or only make sense within the context of that time and culture, but the fundamental values and message are still legit.

ShadowMoses900

that post was sort of tongue in cheek

Well still felt it was worth explaining. I like talking to you, you're much more respectful when it comes to religious discussions than a lot of the posters here.

thanks, i try to keep things civil
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nocoolnamejim

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#160 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?

Israel's version of Coolbeans?
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#161 FreddyJeffery
Member since 2013 • 164 Posts
So people think that Christianity is losing its iage over time and Islam is not for better or worse? Indeed. However, that is mostly the U.S.'s fault, it's the main area where parts of the bible are being ignored or changed to allow certain things in (like homosexuals), while places like EU are more devoted religious, and have the Pope somewhere over there.
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pie-junior

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#162 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] 43% of Israelis identify themselves as secular.

wikipedia refers to a poll that includes a lot of possibilities that are usually included in the 'secular' square (conservatives; something called 'not very religious conservatives' what ever the fvck that means)- leaving the term secular as including only proper epicureans.

According to an article from Haartz: "A survey conducted recently by the Israel Democracy Institute shows a strengthening of religious faith and religious customs among Jews in Israeli society. Intriguingly, the survey shows that even though 43 percent of Jews in Israel style themselves secular, 80 percent of Israeli Jews believe in the existence of God and 69 percent maintain that the Torah and the commandments are God-given. "

ok? those people do not 'style' themselves 'secular'- because they were offered a huge variety of options, when usually there are only three (secular, religious, ultra-orthodox).
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#163 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="FreddyJeffery"]So people think that Christianity is losing its iage over time and Islam is not for better or worse? Indeed. However, that is mostly the U.S.'s fault, it's the main area where parts of the bible are being ignored or changed to allow certain things in (like homosexuals), while places like EU are more devoted religious, and have the Pope somewhere over there.

EU has devoted Christians? lawl
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#164 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?

no , I am what you would call Chiloni , some of my family is religious (one of the first things I remember clearly was waking up in the morning and praying , at the behest of my uncle and great grandfather in particular) . not an athiest though , maybe slightly conservative , but nothing too crazy.
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#165 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?

Darkman would make a great political analyst of commentator. Nobody could accuse him of bias since nobody knows what his real opinions are. His analyses are spot on though.
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GazaAli

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#166 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="pie-junior"] wikipedia refers to a poll that includes a lot of possibilities that are usually included in the 'secular' square (conservatives; something called 'not very religious conservatives' what ever the fvck that means)- leaving the term secular as including only proper epicureans.

According to an article from Haartz: "A survey conducted recently by the Israel Democracy Institute shows a strengthening of religious faith and religious customs among Jews in Israeli society. Intriguingly, the survey shows that even though 43 percent of Jews in Israel style themselves secular, 80 percent of Israeli Jews believe in the existence of God and 69 percent maintain that the Torah and the commandments are God-given. "

ok? those people do not 'style' themselves 'secular'- because they were offered a huge variety of options, when usually there are only three (secular, religious, ultra-orthodox).

<3
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GazaAli

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#167 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?

Darkman would make a great political analyst of commentator. Nobody could accuse him of bias since nobody knows what his real opinions are. His analyses are spot on though.

I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian
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Ilovegames1992

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#168 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

So people think that Christianity is losing its iage over time and Islam is not for better or worse? Indeed. However, that is mostly the U.S.'s fault, it's the main area where parts of the bible are being ignored or changed to allow certain things in (like homosexuals), while places like EU are more devoted religious, and have the Pope somewhere over there.FreddyJeffery

My favourite part of any post i've read in a while.

Pope recently did a tour of the UK as well.

Legend.

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#169 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]IIRC Darkman is religious Israeli conservative. ie A daywalker right?

Darkman would make a great political analyst of commentator. Nobody could accuse him of bias since nobody knows what his real opinions are. His analyses are spot on though.

I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.
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one_plum

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#170 one_plum
Member since 2009 • 6825 Posts

TC, if you're gonna make some sort of a statement, take a more direct approach.

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GazaAli

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#171 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]Darkman would make a great political analyst of commentator. Nobody could accuse him of bias since nobody knows what his real opinions are. His analyses are spot on though. BossPerson
I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3
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#172 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a PalestinianGazaAli
me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

I want a falafel :(

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#173 FreddyJeffery
Member since 2013 • 164 Posts

TC, if you're gonna make some sort of a statement, take a more direct approach.

one_plum
What statement? The thread is in the forum of a question which has led to discussion. What is a direct question/
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#174 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

Shawarma is meh , all the ones Ive eaten were oily and tasted like they were a weak old, I will stick with Falafel
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#175 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]Darkman would make a great political analyst of commentator. Nobody could accuse him of bias since nobody knows what his real opinions are. His analyses are spot on though. BossPerson
I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie
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#176 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

zaatar? jibneh man. Best breakfast possible. With some tea as well.
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#177 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made. wis3boi

Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

I want a falafel :(

You are a wise man
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KC_Hokie

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#178 KC_Hokie
Member since 2006 • 16099 Posts
They are equally terrible and filled with superstitious nonsense via 'divine' texts.
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#179 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestiniannocoolnamejim
me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

I sometimes wonder this as well. The Israeli right should realize how dangerous their policies are.

although that doesnt automatically equal appeasing Hamas.

It's just an acknwlodgement that its better to remove a threat instead of farming one.

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#180 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because its not always about money, some people will be quite willing to eat mud to get to a certain goal , whatever it will be. besides, who is going to fund that?
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Ilovegames1992

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#181 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

I know mods are posters too, but i feel uneasy about a moderator, and representative of a site, being openly insulting and disrepespectful to a religion.

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GazaAli

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#182 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made. BossPerson
Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

zaatar? jibneh man. Best breakfast possible. With some tea as well.

Jibneh I'm with you, just wanted to make it more authentic. Also Darkman is not a fan of Shawarma I'm disappointing. This is probably why peace is still not achieved... I'm of to bed, explain to Jim whatever he's asking about, was supposed to go to sleep an hour ago but this topic kept me up...
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#183 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

zaatar? jibneh man. Best breakfast possible. With some tea as well.

Jibneh I'm with you, just wanted to make it more authentic. Also Darkman is not a fan of Shawarma I'm disappointing. This is probably why peace is still not achieved... I'm of to bed, explain to Jim whatever he's asking about, was supposed to go to sleep an hour ago but this topic kept me up...

tisbah ala kher
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Darkman2007

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#184 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] Falafel and Humus for breakfast, Shawarma for lunch, manaqeesh za3tar for dinner. It has been decided :3

zaatar? jibneh man. Best breakfast possible. With some tea as well.

Jibneh I'm with you, just wanted to make it more authentic. Also Darkman is not a fan of Shawarma I'm disappointing. This is probably why peace is still not achieved... I'm of to bed, explain to Jim whatever he's asking about, was supposed to go to sleep an hour ago but this topic kept me up...

meh , if you can eat Gefilte Fish , I will eat some Shawarma, if you don't turn green ( or at least change colour) after eating it, I will be impressed.
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#185 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made. Darkman2007
Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because its not always about money, some people will be quite willing to eat mud to get to a certain goal , whatever it will be. besides, who is going to fund that?

As to the latter question of who would fund it, I'd point out that Palestine isn't THAT big of a place. Shouldn't cost THAT much. If it took the ongoing headache away for good from the rest of the world, I'd think it would be a wise longterm investment. As to the former point of "some people just want to watch the world burn", while I agree that you'll never get EVERYONE and there will always be extremists the critical question is HOW MANY extremists there are and how easy it is to replenish them. Extremism is far more common where certain conditions (such as widespread poverty and deprivation) exist. It's a little harder to convince someone to strap a bomb to his chest and go punish the heathen devils if he's otherwise got a pretty happy life I would think. It's where the term "failed nation states" comes from.
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#186 one_plum
Member since 2009 • 6825 Posts

[QUOTE="one_plum"]

TC, if you're gonna make some sort of a statement, take a more direct approach.

FreddyJeffery

What statement? The thread is in the forum of a question which has led to discussion. What is a direct question/

Not much of a comparison can be made between the two. I'm not trying to defend or attack any specific religion, but we all know which institutions normally get most of the bad press and are considered backwards. Seems to me the thread was trying to add fuel to that.

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#187 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because its not always about money, some people will be quite willing to eat mud to get to a certain goal , whatever it will be. besides, who is going to fund that?

As to the latter question of who would fund it, I'd point out that Palestine isn't THAT big of a place. Shouldn't cost THAT much. If it took the ongoing headache away for good from the rest of the world, I'd think it would be a wise longterm investment. As to the former point of "some people just want to watch the world burn", while I agree that you'll never get EVERYONE and there will always be extremists the critical question is HOW MANY extremists there are and how easy it is to replenish them. Extremism is far more common where certain conditions (such as widespread poverty and deprivation) exist. It's a little harder to convince someone to strap a bomb to his chest and go punish the heathen devils if he's otherwise got a pretty happy life I would think. It's where the term "failed nation states" comes from.

thing is , the fighting isn't over economics or living conditions , its politics , religion , and land, Israel is not poor (I would say the living standards are similar to what one would find in a south-western European country, Italy/Spain/Portugal , etc), but "extremeists" do exist. its not a matter of watching the world burn , but if a conflict is about something other than economics, its not the same. sure, I can see it helping somewhat, but it won't make the problem go away, , and who is to say the extremists won't rule the day anyways. think about this though , the West Bank is generally richer than Gaza, but its not quiet or peaceful , the only reason Hamas hasn't taken over it was because most of the Hamas activists are in either Palestinian Authority, or Israeli prisons.
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FreddyJeffery

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#188 FreddyJeffery
Member since 2013 • 164 Posts

[QUOTE="FreddyJeffery"][QUOTE="one_plum"]

TC, if you're gonna make some sort of a statement, take a more direct approach.

one_plum

What statement? The thread is in the forum of a question which has led to discussion. What is a direct question/

Not much of a comparison can be made between the two. I'm not trying to defend or attack any specific religion, but we all know which institutions normally get most of the bad press and are considered backwards. Seems to me the thread was trying to add fuel to that.

Not much of a comparison? The Quran is basically the bible.
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one_plum

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#189 one_plum
Member since 2009 • 6825 Posts

[QUOTE="one_plum"]

[QUOTE="FreddyJeffery"]What statement? The thread is in the forum of a question which has led to discussion. What is a direct question/FreddyJeffery

Not much of a comparison can be made between the two. I'm not trying to defend or attack any specific religion, but we all know which institutions normally get most of the bad press and are considered backwards. Seems to me the thread was trying to add fuel to that.

Not much of a comparison? The Quran is basically the bible.

Not much of a comparison in the sense how unanimous the public opinion of your question will be.

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pie-junior

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#190 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] I'd hangout with Darkman, that is a lot coming from a Palestinian

me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made.

Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because israel is all about ruling through the status quo, among other things, for reasons listed above. Israel also doesn't keep 'palestine' in a state of poverty- It tries to keep the hamas regime in Gaza at a state of poverty and seclusion (with the normal efficacy of Israel in trying to accomplish a foreign policy goal, as in, badly). The west bank is (was? idk what's going on there now with all the recent sh!t) the beneficiary of extensive Israeli support. however- the occupation (ie the means to maintain security for military forces and prevent militant excursions into israel) takes its toll; the palestinians have repeatedly rejected any Israeli plan regarding ifrastructures- invoking the lack of the legitimacy of the belligerent occupier in erecting permanent facilities by international law (eg in the Israeli supreme court); and the Israeli action is the west bank isn't properly settled in some thought out plan- but seems to depend more on whims and current political interests.
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LLYNCES

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#191 LLYNCES
Member since 2012 • 378 Posts

Neither, they are both retarded and should have no place in modern society.

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#192 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made. pie-junior
Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because israel is all about ruling through the status quo, among other things, for reasons listed above. Israel also doesn't keep 'palestine' in a state of poverty- It tries to keep the hamas regime in Gaza at a state of poverty and seclusion (with the normal efficacy of Israel in trying to accomplish a foreign policy goal, as in, badly). The west bank is (was? idk what's going on there now with all the recent sh!t) the beneficiary of extensive Israeli support. however- the occupation (ie the means to maintain security for military forces and prevent militant excursions into israel) takes its toll; the palestinians have repeatedly rejected any Israeli plan regarding ifrastructures- invoking the lack of the legitimacy of the belligerent occupier in erecting permanent facilities by international law (eg in the Israeli supreme court); and the Israeli action is the west bank isn't properly settled in some thought out plan- but seems to depend more on whims and current political interests.

spot on. Although I dont think by this point Israel leaving the WB will mean Fatah launching operations into Israel.
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pie-junior

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#193 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
I'll make an example of this- the Israeli government has recently authorised the construction plans of settlements in very problematic areas in the W bank- leading to a massive global backlash maybe unprecedented in recent history. Netanyahu knew this very adversely affects Israel's position in the global scene, and might be a tremendous hinderance in a possible compromise. He did it because it's election time, and he wanted to show his pro-settlement base constituency that he is right winged enough and to prevent vote leaks to a recently fastly growing moderate religious-zionist party. probably- it isn't going to be built at all, but if it does- it's just because an election campaign.
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#194 Vaultboy-101
Member since 2009 • 1778 Posts

Neither of them, they're both as primitive and backwards as possible.

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#195 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]me, you major, darkman and piejunior. well have shawarmas once peace is made. pie-junior
Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because israel is all about ruling through the status quo, among other things, for reasons listed above. Israel also doesn't keep 'palestine' in a state of poverty- It tries to keep the hamas regime in Gaza at a state of poverty and seclusion (with the normal efficacy of Israel in trying to accomplish a foreign policy goal, as in, badly). The west bank is (was? idk what's going on there now with all the recent sh!t) the beneficiary of extensive Israeli support. however- the occupation (ie the means to maintain security for military forces and prevent militant excursions into israel) takes its toll; the palestinians have repeatedly rejected any Israeli plan regarding ifrastructures- invoking the lack of the legitimacy of the belligerent occupier in erecting permanent facilities by international law (eg in the Israeli supreme court); and the Israeli action is the west bank isn't properly settled in some thought out plan- but seems to depend more on whims and current political interests.

So, what about an outside imposed solution? Seems like the politics of both sides, to varying degrees depending on timing, screw things over from the two sides directly involved. U.S. position for decades has been the 1967 borders with agreed upon land swaps. Is this reasonable and, if the political will/pressure from outside of the region was there to basically say, "Do this or we're withdrawing all involvement, aide, support" whatever, what would likely happen?
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Ilovegames1992

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#196 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

Neither of them, they're both as primitive and backwards as possible.

Vaultboy-101

What's backwards about loving your neighbour?

:(

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#197 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Got a question for you group then. Why hasn't anyone tried a "Marshall Plan" approach to Palestine? (Or if they have, can someone give me some reading material?) I'm referring to how the allies went in and basically rebuild the Axis power nations after WWII when they figured out that leaving them in ruins after WW1 went a long way towards causing WW2. Then, over time, clear benchmarks were set that the Axis powers needed to meet to gradually get independence again. Palestine, as I understand it, is kept under pretty much constant poverty, sanctions, etc. Doesn't this cause an endless loop? Why not just go in and kill the extremists with kindness to strengthen the moderates? /hippie

because israel is all about ruling through the status quo, among other things, for reasons listed above. Israel also doesn't keep 'palestine' in a state of poverty- It tries to keep the hamas regime in Gaza at a state of poverty and seclusion (with the normal efficacy of Israel in trying to accomplish a foreign policy goal, as in, badly). The west bank is (was? idk what's going on there now with all the recent sh!t) the beneficiary of extensive Israeli support. however- the occupation (ie the means to maintain security for military forces and prevent militant excursions into israel) takes its toll; the palestinians have repeatedly rejected any Israeli plan regarding ifrastructures- invoking the lack of the legitimacy of the belligerent occupier in erecting permanent facilities by international law (eg in the Israeli supreme court); and the Israeli action is the west bank isn't properly settled in some thought out plan- but seems to depend more on whims and current political interests.

spot on. Although I dont think by this point Israel leaving the WB will mean Fatah launching operations into Israel.

I meant 'terrorist excursions'. the only reason there hasn't been a suicide bombing since operation pillar of cloud (and that too was an abnormality) is because the tight grip the IDF and the shinbet (mainly the shinbet) keep on the W bank.
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Darkman2007

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#198 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts
[QUOTE="pie-junior"]I'll make an example of this- the Israeli government has recently authorised the construction plans of settlements in very problematic areas in the W bank- leading to a massive global backlash maybe unprecedented in recent history. Netanyahu knew this very adversely affects Israel's position in the global scene, and might be a tremendous hinderance in a possible compromise. He did it because it's election time, and he wanted to show his pro-settlement base constituency that he is right winged enough and to prevent vote leaks to a recently fastly growing moderate religious-zionist party. probably- it isn't going to be built at all, but if it does- it's just because an election campaign.

or later because of a coalition requirement, if he ends up in a coalition with Bayit Yehudi. though one could argue that if he gets Lapid (and maybe, just maybe, Livni , although thats less likely) on his side , it could balance things out a bit.
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#199 FreddyJeffery
Member since 2013 • 164 Posts
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]I'll make an example of this- the Israeli government has recently authorised the construction plans of settlements in very problematic areas in the W bank- leading to a massive global backlash maybe unprecedented in recent history. Netanyahu knew this very adversely affects Israel's position in the global scene, and might be a tremendous hinderance in a possible compromise. He did it because it's election time, and he wanted to show his pro-settlement base constituency that he is right winged enough and to prevent vote leaks to a recently fastly growing moderate religious-zionist party. probably- it isn't going to be built at all, but if it does- it's just because an election campaign.

or later because of a coalition requirement, if he ends up in a coalition with Bayit Yehudi. though one could argue that if he gets Lapid (and maybe, just maybe, Livni , although thats less likely) on his side , it could balance things out a bit.

We need Aaron Sharon back to bring back the peace because all the bone headed decisions of the current administration is causing massive hate at fast fire rates.
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#200 FreddyJeffery
Member since 2013 • 164 Posts

[QUOTE="Vaultboy-101"]

Neither of them, they're both as primitive and backwards as possible.

Ilovegames1992

What's backwards about loving your neighbour?

:(

If your neighbor is the same-sex as you that line does not apply and its against the book.