Why I Don't Believe in Evolution

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Optical_Order

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#301 Optical_Order
Member since 2008 • 5100 Posts

It kind of depresses me that there are still people who don't believe in evolution.

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branketra

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#302 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

I didn't ask anything.

toast_burner

Do you even know what an atom is?toast_burner

I'll just let that speak for itself. Moving on.

You should go read up on basic evolution, you clearly know nothing about that, let alone the origin of life.

toast_burner

I already know about evolution since I graduated high school. Read my post above the one which you replied to. That's my answer.

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NEWMAHAY

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#303 NEWMAHAY
Member since 2012 • 3824 Posts

Can any explain innate immune system without evolution lol? Serious question. Please, I would love to hear how the thousands of scientists studying immunology and microbial interactions are wrong.

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#304 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] It's the origin of the theory.BranKetra

The theory came from Darwin and Lamarck, who had no clue of the existence of atoms at their time.

I'm aware of that. What I meant was, the origin of evolution lies within the origin of the universe, regardless of whether or not the scientists who made the theory of evolution knew about it.

What you're thinking of is abiogenesis, not evolution.

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Teenaged

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#305 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

The theory came from Darwin and Lamarck, who had no clue of the existence of atoms at their time.

toast_burner

I'm aware of that. What I meant was, the origin of evolution lies within the origin of the universe, regardless of whether or not the scientists who made the theory of evolution knew about it.

What you're thinking of is abiogenesis, not evolution.

Careful... you might be advised to take a biology cIass.

If you're persistent enough, maybe an English cIass as well.

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branketra

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#306 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Heisenderp"]

The theory came from Darwin and Lamarck, who had no clue of the existence of atoms at their time.

toast_burner

I'm aware of that. What I meant was, the origin of evolution lies within the origin of the universe, regardless of whether or not the scientists who made the theory of evolution knew about it.

What you're thinking of is abiogenesis, not evolution.

Indeed.
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branketra

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#307 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] I'm aware of that. What I meant was, the origin of evolution lies within the origin of the universe, regardless of whether or not the scientists who made the theory of evolution knew about it.Teenaged

What you're thinking of is abiogenesis, not evolution.

Careful... you might be advised to take a biology cIass.

If you're persistent enough, maybe an English cIass as well.

Haven't seen you in a while. You must be bored.
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Teenaged

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#308 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]What you're thinking of is abiogenesis, not evolution.

BranKetra

Careful... you might be advised to take a biology cIass.

If you're persistent enough, maybe an English cIass as well.

Haven't seen you in a while. You must be bored.

Extremely.

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branketra

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#309 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Careful... you might be advised to take a biology cIass.

If you're persistent enough, maybe an English cIass as well.

Teenaged

Haven't seen you in a while. You must be bored.

Extremely.

Maybe you find something to do then.
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lx_theo

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#310 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts
I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.BranKetra
That is among the least intelligent things I have ever read.
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Teenaged

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#311 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] Haven't seen you in a while. You must be bored.BranKetra

Extremely.

Maybe you find something to do then.

That's what I'm doing actually.

Is there a problem?

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branketra

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#312 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"]I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.lx_theo
That is among the least intelligent things I have ever read.

Care to explain or are you just being argumentative?
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branketra

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#313 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Extremely.

Teenaged

Maybe you find something to do then.

That's what I'm doing actually.

Is there a problem?

There shouldn't be.
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Jericho_Tanner

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#314 Jericho_Tanner
Member since 2012 • 32 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] Maybe you find something to do then.BranKetra

That's what I'm doing actually.

Is there a problem?

There shouldn't be.

wow you really come off as an arrogant t wat
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omho88

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#315 omho88
Member since 2007 • 3967 Posts

Isn't it that says, the human was a monkey ?!

ironically, I am a muslim and it defies everything in islam, and yet we studied in in high school but the really funny thing is that, not single one of us stand before our teacher and argued this fact with him ... our education really killed our brains.

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Joshywaa

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#316 Joshywaa
Member since 2002 • 10991 Posts

Isn't it that says, the human was a monkey ?!

ironically, I am a muslim and it defies everything in islam, and yet we studied in in high school but the really funny thing is that, not single one of us stand before our teacher and argued this fact with him ... our education really killed our brains.

omho88

oh dear

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Teenaged

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#317 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] Maybe you find something to do then.BranKetra

That's what I'm doing actually.

Is there a problem?

There shouldn't be.

Nice.

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lx_theo

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#318 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.BranKetra
That is among the least intelligent things I have ever read.

Care to explain or are you just being argumentative?

Atoms don't become self aware. Atoms don't have the structural capability needed to make that happen. Self-awareness took a long time to actually develop after life started.
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branketra

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#319 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]That's what I'm doing actually.

Is there a problem?

Jericho_Tanner
There shouldn't be.

wow you really come off as an arrogant t wat

We know each other.
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deactivated-59f03d6ce656b

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#320 deactivated-59f03d6ce656b
Member since 2009 • 2944 Posts

Isn't it that says, the human was a monkey ?!

ironically, I am a muslim and it defies everything in islam, and yet we studied in in high school but the really funny thing is that, not single one of us stand before our teacher and argued this fact with him ... our education really killed our brains.

omho88
Well if you think Humans evolved from monkeys you need more education. We evolved from a common ancestor.
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branketra

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#321 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] That is among the least intelligent things I have ever read.lx_theo
Care to explain or are you just being argumentative?

Atoms don't become self aware. Atoms don't have the structural capability needed to make that happen. Self-awareness took a long time to actually develop after life started.

Think outside the box for a moment instead of insulting me again. I don't literally mean that atoms think. I'm honestly surprised so many people took it that way.

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omho88

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#322 omho88
Member since 2007 • 3967 Posts
[QUOTE="omho88"]

Isn't it that says, the human was a monkey ?!

ironically, I am a muslim and it defies everything in islam, and yet we studied in in high school but the really funny thing is that, not single one of us stand before our teacher and argued this fact with him ... our education really killed our brains.

Person0
Well if you think Humans evolved from monkeys you need more education. We evolved from a common ancestor.

I won't lie, that chapter was boring as hell, I didn't even care for it .... but I dun mind knowing more about it now .... what is the common ancestor?
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lx_theo

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#323 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts

[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Care to explain or are you just being argumentative?BranKetra

Atoms don't become self aware. Atoms don't have the structural capability needed to make that happen. Self-awareness took a long time to actually develop after life started.

Think outside the box for a moment instead of insulting me again. I don't literally mean that atoms think. I'm honestly surprised that so many people took that way.

Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.
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branketra

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#324 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"]

[QUOTE="lx_theo"] Atoms don't become self aware. Atoms don't have the structural capability needed to make that happen. Self-awareness took a long time to actually develop after life started.lx_theo

Think outside the box for a moment instead of insulting me again. I don't literally mean that atoms think. I'm honestly surprised that so many people took that way.

Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.

Seriously? I don't see any reason to clarify anything to a bunch of rude jerks.

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lx_theo

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#325 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Think outside the box for a moment instead of insulting me again. I don't literally mean that atoms think. I'm honestly surprised that so many people took that way.BranKetra
Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.

Seriously?

It looked pretty bad. And other than saying that you didn't mean atoms, you've done nothing to undo that. Its totally up to you, but that's just my suggestion if you care about saving face or not.
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Jericho_Tanner

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#326 Jericho_Tanner
Member since 2012 • 32 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.

Seriously?

It looked pretty bad. And other than saying that you didn't mean atoms, you've done nothing to undo that. Its totally up to you, but that's just my suggestion if you care about saving face or not.

if he cared about saving face then he would have left this site after his very first post
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lx_theo

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#327 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]Seriously?Jericho_Tanner
It looked pretty bad. And other than saying that you didn't mean atoms, you've done nothing to undo that. Its totally up to you, but that's just my suggestion if you care about saving face or not.

if he cared about saving face then he would have left this site after his very first post

Didn't say I was expecting him to do it.
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branketra

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#328 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.lx_theo
Seriously?

It looked pretty bad. And other than saying that you didn't mean atoms, you've done nothing to undo that. Its totally up to you, but that's just my suggestion if you care about saving face or not.

I wasn't aware that I cared about saving face to people who insult me because of their own presumptions. I've been posting here for a while now and most users who I talk to grasp the meaning of my words. If not, I almost always explain. I'm not apologizing for not explaining things now that you and other users are acting like this. In fact, if you bother to look through the thread, you'll see that it's already over and done with. That's up to you, really.

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Tylendal

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#329 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts
I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.BranKetra
Well now you're denying that human beings are made up of atoms. o_O
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immortality20

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#330 immortality20
Member since 2005 • 8546 Posts

Why I don't believe in facts *youtube video*.

Evolution is a fact.

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Willy105

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#331 Willy105
Member since 2005 • 26211 Posts

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="omho88"]

Isn't it that says, the human was a monkey ?!

ironically, I am a muslim and it defies everything in islam, and yet we studied in in high school but the really funny thing is that, not single one of us stand before our teacher and argued this fact with him ... our education really killed our brains.

omho88

Well if you think Humans evolved from monkeys you need more education. We evolved from a common ancestor.

I won't lie, that chapter was boring as hell, I didn't even care for it .... but I dun mind knowing more about it now .... what is the common ancestor?

The last common ancestor of both the apes and humans were Nakalipithecus and Ouranopithecus, meaning humans and monkeys separated no earlier than 8 million years ago.

700px-Ape_skeletons.png

According to evolution, it means that all of these are brothers; one didn't come from the other, but they all came from something else.

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Nibroc420

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#332 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] Well... Its literally what you said, and you never clarified, only argued very badly and bluntly for what you said as fact. If you want to save face, you might want to go through quickly how you believe an "atom becomes self-aware" (by whatever interpretation you intended). Otherwise, you'll still look as stupid as the various insults that have been thrown at you.

Seriously?

It looked pretty bad. And other than saying that you didn't mean atoms, you've done nothing to undo that. Its totally up to you, but that's just my suggestion if you care about saving face or not.

He explained himself quite clearly, it seems your comprehension isn't quite as high as what is expected in forums designed for ages 13 and up. There's no need to insult someone because you're unable to understand their position, if you don't understand ask for clarification, don't just assume you understood something especially when your "understanding" makes no f***ing sense. Atoms are not self aware. People, made of atoms, are self aware. Isn't it amazing how people, who are simply made of atoms, can be capable of sentient thought?
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coolbeans90

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#333 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] It's the origin of the theory.BranKetra

No it's not.

I assure you that they do. If not, where did life come from?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

*throws chair through wind; wanders into street and throws rocks at moving cars' windows and beats an old lady with a club*

IAMVERYVERYVEYRVEYRANGRY PIUUGNSREOGUNsjre;ognaed[gnjowrgnrwgojnsg

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lx_theo

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#334 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts
I wasn't aware that I cared about saving face to people who insult me because of their own presumptions. I've been posting here for a while now and most users who I talk to grasp the meaning of my words. If not, I almost always explain. I'm not apologizing for not explaining things now that you and other users are acting like this. In fact, if you bother to look through the thread, you'll see that it's already over and done with. That's up to you, really.BranKetra
I didn't say you did care. I'm only saying you looked like an idiot. Your choice whether to act on that. [QUOTE="BranKetra"] He explained himself quite clearly, it seems your comprehension isn't quite as high as what is expected in forums designed for ages 13 and up. There's no need to insult someone because you're unable to understand their position, if you don't understand ask for clarification, don't just assume you understood something especially when your "understanding" makes no f***ing sense. Atoms are not self aware. People, made of atoms, are self aware. Isn't it amazing how people, who are simply made of atoms, can be capable of sentient thought?

Given he didn't say a single word of any of that (You did), I'd say he did nothing of the sort that could be qualified as "explaining". And no, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt. The internet has too many people saying stupid things they means to make that a safe approach to take. So good luck with that thing you have going there.
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Nibroc420

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#335 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"]I wasn't aware that I cared about saving face to people who insult me because of their own presumptions. I've been posting here for a while now and most users who I talk to grasp the meaning of my words. If not, I almost always explain. I'm not apologizing for not explaining things now that you and other users are acting like this. In fact, if you bother to look through the thread, you'll see that it's already over and done with. That's up to you, really.lx_theo
I didn't say you did care. I'm only saying you looked like an idiot. Your choice whether to act on that. [QUOTE="BranKetra"] He explained himself quite clearly, it seems your comprehension isn't quite as high as what is expected in forums designed for ages 13 and up. There's no need to insult someone because you're unable to understand their position, if you don't understand ask for clarification, don't just assume you understood something especially when your "understanding" makes no f***ing sense. Atoms are not self aware. People, made of atoms, are self aware. Isn't it amazing how people, who are simply made of atoms, can be capable of sentient thought?

Given he didn't say a single word of any of that (You did), I'd say he did nothing of the sort that could be qualified as "explaining". And no, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt. The internet has too many people saying stupid things they means to make that a safe approach to take. So good luck with that thing you have going there.

If you'd read and correctly understood his posts, you'd understand that the statements "atoms become self aware" was not in the context of a single atom, it was referring to a collections of atoms (in human/animal form) becoming self aware. *Gasps* Atoms, not self aware, become self aware when combined together correctly :o Again, there is an age requirement of 13 on this site, and your reading comprehension doesn't seem to be quite there yet. Are you sure you're old enough to be posting on this forum?
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lx_theo

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#336 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts

If you'd read and correctly understood his posts, you'd understand that the statements "atoms become self aware" was not in the context of a single atom, it was referring to a collections of atoms (in human/animal form) becoming self aware. *Gasps* Atoms, not self aware, become self aware when combined together correctly :o Again, there is an age requirement of 13 on this site, and your reading comprehension doesn't seem to be quite there yet. Are you sure you're old enough to be posting on this forum?Nibroc420
Cute, you're trying to insult me by saying I'm younger and less intelligent than I am. By the way, I am many years out of middle school, so you may as well put that tactic from there to rest.

And no, he didn't. Again, YOU did... But he did nothing to imply anything more that the original statement in question. Also again, I'm not choosing to give the benefit of the doubt to people who say things like that on the internet. Deal with it.

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Nibroc420

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#337 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] Given he didn't say a single word of any of that (You did), I'd say he did nothing of the sort that could be qualified as "explaining". And no, I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt. The internet has too many people saying stupid things they means to make that a safe approach to take. So good luck with that thing you have going there.

If you'd read and correctly understood his posts, you'd understand that the statements "atoms become self aware" was not in the context of a single atom, it was referring to a collections of atoms (in human/animal form) becoming self aware. *Gasps* Atoms, not self aware, become self aware when combined together correctly :o Again, there is an age requirement of 13 on this site, and your reading comprehension doesn't seem to be quite there yet. Are you sure you're old enough to be posting on this forum?

Cute, you're trying to insult me by saying I'm younger and less intelligent than I am. By the way, I am many years out of middle school, so you may as well put that tactic to rest. And no, he didn't. Again, YOU did... But he did nothing to imply anything more that the original statement in question. Also again, I'mnot choosing to give the benefit of the doubt to people who say things like that on the internet. Deal with it.

1.) I'm questioning your age because you're unable to comprehend simple sentences and statements. 2.) Instead of thinking, and asking for clarification, you simply attack the person you don't understand, a tell tale sign of a child. 3.) He did make those statements. I simply re-worded them because you were claiming it wasn't said, again putting your reading comprehension into question. You've yet to actually respond to Bran-Ketra's statement, now that i've re-worded it so you're able to understand, you simply claim Bran didn't say it. Point is you were wrong all along, and the fact you're unable to admit it once again shows how little you know, and how young you must be.
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lx_theo

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#338 lx_theo
Member since 2010 • 6211 Posts

1.) I'm questioning your age because you're unable to comprehend simple sentences and statements. 2.) Instead of thinking, and asking for clarification, you simply attack the person you don't understand, a tell tale sign of a child. 3.) He did make those statements. I simply re-worded them because you were claiming it wasn't said, again putting your reading comprehension into question. You've yet to actually respond to Bran-Ketra's statement, now that i've re-worded it so you're able to understand, you simply claim Bran didn't say it. Point is you were wrong all along, and the fact you're unable to admit it once again shows how little you know, and how young you must be.Nibroc420
1) Cute, moving on from the painfully stupid attempts of yours, now?

2) Didn't attack him. Attacked what he said. And I'm the one with reading comprehension problems, lol?

3) He did not. he said it was amazing atoms were sentient and that it was the origin of evolution. Not another thing. Neither of those warrants the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't reply to the mindboggling idea because I don't agree, but I also have no reason why someone shouldn't agree with it. The stupidity of the original claim is what stood out to me.

So unless you have a real point to make instead of trying to fabricate things that never happened and attacking others...

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DoomZaW

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#339 DoomZaW
Member since 2007 • 6475 Posts

How the hell did a former KKK grand wizard get any kind of endorsement from this site?

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Necrifer

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#340 Necrifer
Member since 2010 • 10629 Posts

How the hell did a former KKK grand wizard get any kind of endorsement from this site?

DoomZaW

"Grand wizard"? :|

This isn't a serious title, is it?

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#341 DoomZaW
Member since 2007 • 6475 Posts

[QUOTE="DoomZaW"]

How the hell did a former KKK grand wizard get any kind of endorsement from this site?

Necrifer

"Grand wizard"? :|

This isn't a serious title, is it?

Yup, in all it's glory. David Duke was the KKK's leader (grand wizard ) for 6 years.

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Necrifer

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#342 Necrifer
Member since 2010 • 10629 Posts

Bunch'a fvcking nerds.

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#343 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

[QUOTE="DoomZaW"]

How the hell did a former KKK grand wizard get any kind of endorsement from this site?

Necrifer

"Grand wizard"? :|

This isn't a serious title, is it?

Between the secret handshakes, the ridiculous names, and the other various over-the-top ceremonies, many of the Klan's inner practices were amusingly childish. In an odd turn of events, Superman is actually responsible for greatly reducing the power and influence of the KKK. One Stetson Kennedy worked his way deep undercover into the Klan. After he learned all the various passwords and ceremonies and stuff, he wrote a book about it. Before he did that though, he passed all the information on to the writers of the Superman radio show. Members of the KKK seeing their kids playing with their secret passwords etc. as villains in a imaginary "Superman vs evil people" game was incredibly demoralizing, and was a very strong blow against the KKK.
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Necrifer

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#344 Necrifer
Member since 2010 • 10629 Posts

Well, that's enough for me.

KKK: even stupider than I thought.

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#345 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"]I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.Tylendal
Well now you're denying that human beings are made up of atoms. o_O

Of course I am.
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#346 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="toast_burner"]No it's not.

coolbeans90

I assure you that they do. If not, where did life come from?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

*throws chair through wind; wanders into street and throws rocks at moving cars' windows and beats an old lady with a club*

IAMVERYVERYVEYRVEYRANGRY PIUUGNSREOGUNsjre;ognaed[gnjowrgnrwgojnsg

Ragequit.
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#347 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]I find the idea of atoms becoming self aware mind boggling.BranKetra
Well now you're denying that human beings are made up of atoms. o_O

Of course I am.

Are you insane?

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#348 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="lx_theo"] I didn't say you did care.

I know. [QUOTE="lx_theo"] I'm only saying you looked like an idiot. Your choice whether to act on that.

An idiot to who? Did these people read through the thread or are their heads still up their butts?
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#349 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Tylendal"] Well now you're denying that human beings are made up of atoms. o_Otoast_burner

Of course I am.

Are you insane?

Are you?
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#350 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] Of course I am.BranKetra

Are you insane?

Are you?

No. Do you honestly not think that humans are made up of atoms or are you trolling?

Or was that supposed to be a double negative and you were saying you don't think that?