why would god create us to put us in hell?

[QUOTE="Zagrius"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="muppet1010"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]Because he's a misanthrope. Why else would the concept of original sin (your existence is a sin) be?Dracargen

Technically, He didn't come up with original sin. Man did.:|

a "man" somewhere wrote it all down and now we take it all to be sin or not. It all came from some "man".

not the guy who loves every single one of us no matter what. But will (whilst loving you no matter what) send you off to a burning pit of hell to fester for the rest of existence.... yeah i dont get that bit at all.

Then look at it this way: you don't want to be with God, so God, who loves you no matter what, is giving you exactly what you want.

Yeah, if Hell is really just a seperation from God and involves no eternal brimstone and gnashing of teeth, then I don't think I mind.

The torutre of Hell is the seperation from God. On Earth, nobody is truly seperated from God. . .nobody really knows what it feels like. In Hell, they do.

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

muppet1010

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

Good point TCespoac

[QUOTE="muppet1010"]

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

Dracargen

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

I never said it was god who did it :P

And I am merely going off the stereo-typical view of hell. Reading through that is does get a little painful how much it goes on with itself. This is the bit that I found bearable. I guess going off that idea of hell it loses effect. As people today in general put less emphasis on god. In all honesty i dont see myelf ever going mad with grief because I'm not a part of god's family.

"Miller cites sources indicating that the torment of hell is relational in nature and involves banishment from heaven. A source says, though again apparently without knowledge of the Biblical world as agonistic: Mental and physical anguish result from the sorrow and shame of the judgment of being forever relationally excluded from God, heaven, and so forth.
In this sense, someone with greater sins has more to "be ashamed of" than someone with lesser sins. Thus the lesser sinner may perhaps be able to withstand God's omnipresence to a greater degree than a greater sinner; to put it another way, the person who has greater sins finds themselves to run harder, more often, and farther than the person with lesser sins."

I guess going off that idea of hell it loses effect. As people today in general put less emphasis on god. In all honesty i dont see myelf ever going mad with grief because I'm not a part of god's family.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="muppet1010"]

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

muppet1010

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

I never said it was god who did it :P

And I am merely going off the stereo-typical view of hell. Reading through that is does get a little painful how much it goes on with itself. This is the bit that I found bearable. I guess going off that idea of hell it loses effect. As people today in general put less emphasis on god. In all honesty i dont see myelf ever going mad with grief because I'm not a part of god's family.

It shouldn't lose its effect. I for one am a bit turned off by the idea of sitting around, thinking about all the wrong I did and what it has cost me until I go insane.

It shouldn't lose its effect. I for one am a bit turned off by the idea of sitting around, thinking about all the wrong I did and what it has cost me until I go insane.

Dracargen

thats it though... what has it cost you?

I guess that bit carries more weight to some than to others. I for one couldnt care less about being in or out of God's family.

[QUOTE="Zagrius"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="muppet1010"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]Because he's a misanthrope. Why else would the concept of original sin (your existence is a sin) be?Dracargen

Technically, He didn't come up with original sin. Man did.:|

a "man" somewhere wrote it all down and now we take it all to be sin or not. It all came from some "man".

not the guy who loves every single one of us no matter what. But will (whilst loving you no matter what) send you off to a burning pit of hell to fester for the rest of existence.... yeah i dont get that bit at all.

Then look at it this way: you don't want to be with God, so God, who loves you no matter what, is giving you exactly what you want.

Yeah, if Hell is really just a seperation from God and involves no eternal brimstone and gnashing of teeth, then I don't think I mind.

The torutre of Hell is the seperation from God. On Earth, nobody is truly seperated from God. . .nobody really knows what it feels like. In Hell, they do.

Right, so you can't be happy if there's nobody to watch over you? Oh wait, I'll be dead so it doesn't matter (that is, unless a religion with a hell is right, but then again, all the religions could be wrong at the same time as well).

[QUOTE="muppet1010"]

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

Dracargen

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

Maybe there's no hell for the Jews since they're the chosen people. :D

[QUOTE="Insane00"][QUOTE="blacktorn"]

That's exactly as how i see it too,couldn't be more right.At the end of the day it all comes down to the person inside,his/her inner-light.which is why repentance is crucial,it's a major part of the bible.

If the bible can teach you this then that is a great thing.Although i must admit,if you don't feel bad for say murdering someone without reading hte bible,then i doubt the bible could change them in that sense,i think it can defiantly stop you doing it in the first place though.

blacktorn

I think that the bible, Koran (yea, it's the western spelling), Upanishads, Torah, etc. all have their insight into faith and humanity. They all teach leasons about how to approach life and the direction to go. But I also think that your mindset, your drive, and your willingness to listen and learn from such sources matter more when they create an impact on a person than the works themselves.

And about repentance, yes, it is crucial, especially in christianity which demands, first and foremost that one accept their imperfection and ask God/Jesus/Holy Spirit for forgiveness. However, I also think that any belief in God requires repentance, for if one truly tries to comprehend the greatness of God, one realizes quite quickly how absolutely awesome and beyond the human experience such a being is, and just how greatly we fall short of said being. How can anyone stand before God with ego, with pride, with anything short of pure fear and humility, knowing that all you are, were, shall be, as well as everything else you've ever known ths being is responcible for? I think repentance is simply the natural progression of Man's desire to come before and understand his creator, no matter how much it is also dictates as doctorine.

But to not love god is to not love people,if you hate god you hate people,if you feel bad about hurting someone then your on the right path,if you can't see that doing sin,bad doings is wrong,then you've locked yourself away from god,the way of Satan.

A love for people is a love for god,and this is the last post i'm doing because I've spent way to much time on this and my head is starting to hurt lol

Indeed. If one acts contrary to everything that is God's nature and would be deemed good, then one does not truly love or believe in God. It would be like saying you love your childeren while drowning them.

He doesn't, only if you do bad stuff. Like start religion threads... :o

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="muppet1010"]

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

Zagrius

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

Maybe there's no hell for the Jews since they're the chosen people. :D

I dont know how its even possible for a jew to go to heaven considering they havent sacrificed in over 3000 or so years.

[QUOTE="Zagrius"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="muppet1010"]

the seperation from god thing.. yeah im cool with that. I as a moderate person take more notice of the burning for eternity whilst a hellish demon rapes me with a pitch fork... see where im coming from?

123625

Well, blame the demon raping you with the pitchfork instead of God.:|

Anyway, I'm becoming less and less convinced that Hell is a place of physical torture. . .if Hell is a fiery place, how can it be dark? And most convincing is the society the Jews lived in. I just don't see how Hell is a fire and brimstone place.

Maybe there's no hell for the Jews since they're the chosen people. :D

I dont know how its even possible for a jew to go to heaven considering they havent sacrificed in over 3000 or so years.

That's what limbo is for.

That's what limbo is for.

Zagrius

Which was something made up by Catholics that as far as I can tell doesn't even have a biblical basis.

[QUOTE="Zagrius"]

That's what limbo is for.

Aidenfury19

Which was something made up by Catholics that as far as I can tell doesn't even have a biblical basis.

I recall something in Judaism where the dead wait somewhere after death until the day when they'll all be resurrected or somesuch. But I heard so much about so many religions that it might have just mixed around in my head.

I don't really think the average human can understand what Hell is like without some kind of deep, rare, spiritual experience. The rape of the soul and everything pure, along with knowing you can never go home again is a horror beyond any nightmare. Sorry to be grim, but it may help some people to grasp it.

As I said early, God didn't make humans to go to Hell. He made us to worship and be in communion with him. Satan's deception and man's disobedience seperated him from God. Christ was the new sacrifice where the Jews sacrifice in the temple of Holies was the old.

Some probably say "yeah well then why doesnt God just snap his finger and give us all a fresh start?". Well for one, the ways of God are far beyond the comprehension of men. It would be like a mouse trying to understand code for a graphics engine. Secondly, who knows what other beings he has created that we know nothing of. We may not even be the first run. Or maybe he loved and loves us so much that instead of snapping his fingers and banishing all of us into oblivion, he would rather let it all play out so we can still have a chance to be with him in the end. It doesn't matter because we've been supplied with the info we need. Some may say, "why doesn't he snap his fingers and kill everything and everyone bad in the world if he loves us?" That one is easy. First off, if he forced us to love him, it wouldn't be real love. He would be a tyrant. Secondly, we'd probably all be dead because we all do some wrong.

Anyway, those things are the truth regardless of any replies.

I recall something in Judaism where the dead wait somewhere after death until the day when they'll all be resurrected or somesuch. But I heard so much about so many religions that it might have just mixed around in my head.

Zagrius

Sounds more like Revelations (New Testament) and I don't believe its nearly that clear. I believe it says the dead wait until the day of judgment.

EDIT: I think this is it Revelations 20:13

[QUOTE="Zagrius"]

I recall something in Judaism where the dead wait somewhere after death until the day when they'll all be resurrected or somesuch. But I heard so much about so many religions that it might have just mixed around in my head.

Aidenfury19

Sounds more like Revelations (New Testament) and I don't believe its nearly that clear. I believe it says the dead wait until the day of judgment.

Well, I read a bit into it, and apparently in Judaism when you die you either go to Abraham's bosom, whatever that means, or Gehennom, until the Day of Judgement, where you are resurrected and judged again for good or bad. Not sure what happens then. There's also a different tradition wherein after death bad people spend a length of time in Gehennom depending on how evil they are (seems that usually no more than a year, but those that are irredeemably bad will stay there forever).

Well, I read a bit into it, and apparently in Judaism when you die you either go to Abraham's bosom, whatever that means, or Gehennom, until the Day of Judgement, where you are resurrected and judged again for good or bad. Not sure what happens then. There's also a different tradition wherein after death bad people spend a length of time in Gehennom depending on how evil they are (seems that usually no more than a year, but those that are irredeemably bad will stay there forever).

Zagrius

Gehennom is actually part of the Christian basis for hell..so its decidedly unclear even there. Looking at the verses on Gehennom I frankly don't see how that can be interpreted as a temporary place of residence for purification (which is what purgatory is understood as).

[QUOTE="Zagrius"]

Well, I read a bit into it, and apparently in Judaism when you die you either go to Abraham's bosom, whatever that means, or Gehennom, until the Day of Judgement, where you are resurrected and judged again for good or bad. Not sure what happens then. There's also a different tradition wherein after death bad people spend a length of time in Gehennom depending on how evil they are (seems that usually no more than a year, but those that are irredeemably bad will stay there forever).

Aidenfury19

Gehennom is actually part of the Christian basis for hell..so its decidedly unclear even there.

Gehennom isn't the same as Hell. Not sure what the difference is, but the Wikipedia article said it's different. I'm not really interested enough to look deeper though.

If he was real ( which he isnt ) according to the good book of all knowing awesomeness we put ourselves in hell. He just gave us the space to do it.

Of course its all just smoke and mirrors so who cares anyway.

I don't really think the average human can understand what Hell is like without some kind of deep, rare, spiritual experience. The rape of the soul and everything pure, along with knowing you can never go home again is a horror beyond any nightmare. Sorry to be grim, but it may help some people to grasp it.

As I said early, God didn't make humans to go to Hell. He made us to worship and be in communion with him. Satan's deception and man's disobedience seperated him from God. Christ was the new sacrifice where the Jews sacrifice in the temple of Holies was the old.

Some probably say "yeah well then why doesnt God just snap his finger and give us all a fresh start?". Well for one, the ways of God are far beyond the comprehension of men. It would be like a mouse trying to understand code for a graphics engine. Secondly, who knows what other beings he has created that we know nothing of. We may not even be the first run. Or maybe he loved and loves us so much that instead of snapping his fingers and banishing all of us into oblivion, he would rather let it all play out so we can still have a chance to be with him in the end. It doesn't matter because we've been supplied with the info we need. Some may say, "why doesn't he snap his fingers and kill everything and everyone bad in the world if he loves us?" That one is easy. First off, if he forced us to love him, it wouldn't be real love. He would be a tyrant. Secondly, we'd probably all be dead because we all do some wrong.

Anyway, those things are the truth regardless of any replies.

Trashface

As I mentioned before, the notion that we would not have a choice in the matter if God proved His existence is absurd. Lots of people love their parents, and lots of people don't love their parents. They ALL know that their parents exist, but they are free to make a choice about how they feel about their parents, usually based on how they are treated by their parents. You know what REALLY eliminates the possibility of free choice? The threat of punishment if you choose not to love the authority figure... something like, I don't know, Hell. If God so desperately wanted humans to love Him, there would be no Hell, and He would prove His existence in a way that no one could refute. People don't develop love for no reason. They develop love out of respect and affection for what they love. When they can't even be sure that what they are supposed to love is real or not, or when they are threatened to either love or suffer eternally for choosing not to, that's when it becomes difficult to love.

What's even more patently absurd is to claim that God is doing any human a favour by offering this choice, where the 'wrong' choice will lead a person to eternal damnation. So in addition to not providing people with tangible evidence to prove to them that He is real and they must indeed take a stand on the matter, God allows those who fail to believe in His unproven existence to be tortured for eternity. But I suppose that's love, right? Because after all, any loving parent would surely allow his or her child to make a decision that involves life or death without providing the child with the information necessary to understand that the danger is indeed real.

The true reason that the vast majority of non-believers are non-believers is because they have been given no tangible evidence to prove that God is real, that Hell is real, or that anything in the Bible or any other sacred text is true. And when these people are damned eternally, we are supposed to believe that it is their fault for failing to believe in an unprovable idea in a world filled with people who are trying to manipulate you into believing what they do without questioning it. Again, the situation is deeply soaked in irony. God is to humanity what Pontius Pilate was to Jesus - a being of authority who COULD do what He knows is necessary to prevent a terrible injustice, but fails to do so, then absolves Himself of any blame by saying "I did make a half-hearted attempt to convince people to make the right decision."

If God wants good people to avoid Hell, He needs to prove He exists. Until He does, He will be no more real to me or any other skeptic than any other mythological figure from historical writing. If He did prove His existence (tangibly, that is), the only people who would end up in Hell would be those who do truly deserve it - those who purposefully rebel against God, knowing full well that He is real, and that there will be consequneces for their behavior. Satan, anyone?

Hey, here's an idea... instead of that loving God people like to believe in. What if there's a God, but He is malicious (like many tyrannical absolute rulers in the past) and enjoys watching us struggle, suffer, and ultimately die? Such a figure would certainly make more sense when you start to talk about ideas like natural catastrophes, the capacity for evil, pain, and eternal damnation. But no, we couldn't believe that... because then God wouldn't be on our side, and we wouldn't feel all warm and fuzzy about existence. Or here's another idea - maybe there is a supernatural creator of the universe, and it is indifferent to us. There is no afterlife... there is no punishment or reward at the end of the line... there's just existence. Or perhaps there is no supernatural realm at all. Of course, all of these scenarios are as unprovable as the loving God, but that's sort of the point, now isn't it?

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

I don't really think the average human can understand what Hell is like without some kind of deep, rare, spiritual experience. The rape of the soul and everything pure, along with knowing you can never go home again is a horror beyond any nightmare. Sorry to be grim, but it may help some people to grasp it.

As I said early, God didn't make humans to go to Hell. He made us to worship and be in communion with him. Satan's deception and man's disobedience seperated him from God. Christ was the new sacrifice where the Jews sacrifice in the temple of Holies was the old.

Some probably say "yeah well then why doesnt God just snap his finger and give us all a fresh start?". Well for one, the ways of God are far beyond the comprehension of men. It would be like a mouse trying to understand code for a graphics engine. Secondly, who knows what other beings he has created that we know nothing of. We may not even be the first run. Or maybe he loved and loves us so much that instead of snapping his fingers and banishing all of us into oblivion, he would rather let it all play out so we can still have a chance to be with him in the end. It doesn't matter because we've been supplied with the info we need. Some may say, "why doesn't he snap his fingers and kill everything and everyone bad in the world if he loves us?" That one is easy. First off, if he forced us to love him, it wouldn't be real love. He would be a tyrant. Secondly, we'd probably all be dead because we all do some wrong.

Anyway, those things are the truth regardless of any replies.

pianist

As I mentioned before, the notion that we would not have a choice in the matter if God proved His existence is absurd. Lots of people love their parents, and lots of people don't love their parents. They ALL know that their parents exist, but they are free to make a choice about how they feel about their parents, usually based on how they are treated by their parents. You know wat REALLY eliminates the possibility of a real choice? The threat of punishment if you choose not to love the authority figure... something like, I don't know, Hell. If God so desperately wanted humans to love Him, there would be no Hell, and He would prove His existence in a way that no one could refute. People don't develop love for no reason. They develop love out of respect and affection for what they love. When they can't even be sure that what they are supposed to love is real or not, or when they are threatened to either love or suffer eternally for choosing not to, that's when it becomes difficult to love.

What's even more patently absurd is to claim that God is doing any human a favour by offering this choice, where the 'wrong' choice will lead a person to eternal damnation. So in addition to not providing people with tangible evidence to prove to them that He is real and they must indeed take a stand on the matter, God allows those who fail to believe in His unproven existence to be tortured for eternity. But I suppose that's love, right? Because after all, any loving parent would surely allow his or her child to make a decision that involves life or death without providing the child with the information necessary to understand that the danger is indeed real.

The true reason that the vast majority of non-believers are non-believers is because they have been given no tangible evidence to prove that God is real, that Hell is real, or that anything in the Bible or any other Holy Book is true. And when these people are damned eternally, we are supposed to believe that it is their fault for failing to believe in an unprovable idea in a world filled with people who are trying to manipulate you into believing what they do without questioning it. Again, the situation is deeply soaked in irony. God is to humanity what Pontius Pilate was to Jesus - a being of authority who COULD do what He knows is necessary to prevent a terrible injustice, but fails to do so, then absolves Himself of any blame by saying "I did make a half-hearted attempt to convince people to make the right decision."

If God wants good people to avoid Hell, He needs to prove He exists. Until He does, He will be no more real to me or any other skeptic than any other mythological figure from historical writing. If He did prove His existence (tangibly, that is), the only people who would end up in Hell would be those who do truly deserve it - those who purposefully rebel against God, knowing full well that He is real, and that there will be consequneces for their behavior. Satan, anyone?

Hey, here's an idea... instead of that loving God people like to believe in. What if there's a God, but He is malicious (like many tyrannical absolute rulers in the past) and enjoys watching us struggle, suffer, and ultimately die? Such a figure would certainly make more sense when you start to talk about ideas like natural catastrophes, the capacity for evil, pain, and eternal damnation. But no, we couldn't believe that... because then God wouldn't be on our side, and we wouldn't feel all warm and fuzzy about existence. Or here's another idea - maybe there is a supernatural creator of the universe, and it is indifferent to us. There is no afterlife... there is no punishment or reward at the end of the line... there's just existence. Or perhaps there is no supernatural realm at all. Of course, all of these scenarios are as unprovable as the loving God, but that's sort of the point, now isn't it?

I'll end this by offering up a hypothetical situation... if you were a parent, would you place your child in a situation where his or here choice is a matter of life or death, and then fail to do everything that is possible to prevent your child from dying? Of course not. But oh yeah... God works in mysterious ways. :roll:

I didn't read any of your earlier replies. They don't make any difference just as your last ione doesn't. Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like. Also, satanists are the truly foolish. They blame God for the things created by Satan. So they end up serving the one that cause all the pain. You don't seem to understand that the deception and disobedience of man changed humanity. Yes, we were designed to love God. Satan tricked mankind into letting filth, sin, death, all that in. Satan hates his followers just as he hates every single human ever born.

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

Trashface

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

pianist

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

pianist

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

He created Hell for the people he didnt like..... Heavens only for the Cool people 8) like us GS'ers

[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

EboyLOL

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

Nothing was torn to shreds. His attempted points were all addressed. Your post is a bit hostile, so you obviously have a pre existing belief in the matter. It's apparent you had a problem with my post in the first place. His posts were, however, more credible and taken more seriously than yours. His words were worth a few replies. Yours aren't worth any so there won't be any more.

Nothing was torn to shreds. His attempted points were all addressed. Your post is a bit hostile, so you obviously have a pre existing belief in the matter. It's apparent you had a problem with my post in the first place. His posts were, however, more credible and taken more seriously than yours. His words were worth a few replies. Yours aren't worth any so there won't be any more.

Trashface

Actually a number of your responses are weak at best.

1: When you assert that many people "won't see the evidence" that is because there is no evidence it is a matter of belief for you..there is no verifiable evidence for the existance of God or the supernatural.

2: You do not address his argument at all, Hell is still a punishment for lack of belief however you care to justify it.

4: Everything in Christian tradition and scripture that I have seen suggests a relationship much like father and child, that goes all the way to Christian terminology (our Father who art in Heaven, our Lord father who art God). You present a lot of speculation but have no set arguments to try and counter his argument. You then go on to claim that God is beyond mere speculation and claim that we are provided all the information we need. I'll assume you are talking about the Bible a text which can not confirmed or discredited.

[QUOTE="EboyLOL"][QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

Trashface

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

Nothing was torn to shreds. His attempted points were all addressed. Your post is a bit hostile, so you obviously have a pre existing belief in the matter. It's apparent you had a problem with my post in the first place. His posts were, however, more credible and taken more seriously than yours. His words were worth a few replies. Yours aren't worth any so there won't be any more.

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

Trashface

allow me to summarize his post for you pianist :)

along the lines of "god is above us... you cant attempt to understand him." Its quite a nice arguement really. In that it cant be argued against if the person can take that statement and dress it up numerous different ways.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

Nothing was torn to shreds. His attempted points were all addressed. Your post is a bit hostile, so you obviously have a pre existing belief in the matter. It's apparent you had a problem with my post in the first place. His posts were, however, more credible and taken more seriously than yours. His words were worth a few replies. Yours aren't worth any so there won't be any more.

Aidenfury19

Actually a number of your responses are weak at best.

1) When you assert that many people "won't see the evidence" that is because there is no evidence it is a matter of belief for you..there is no verifiable evidence for the existance of God or the supernatural.

2) You do not address his argument at all, Hell is still a punishment for lack of belief however you care to justify it.

4) Everything in Christian tradition and scripture that I have seen suggests a relationship much like father and child, that goes all the way to Christian terminology (our Father who art in Heaven, our Lord father who art God). You present a lot of speculation but have no set arguments to try and counter his argument. You then go on to claim that God is beyond mere speculation and claim that we are provided all the information we need (which I'll assume is the Bible, a text whose truth can not be confirmed or denied empirically).

1. From what I've seen personally, I have no choice but to believe. You can say you haven't seen evidence. You don't speak for everyone. There will never be verifiable evidence in the world's eyes. It would negate the need for faith.

2. I did. Maybe you didn't grasp it. Man disobeyed, therefore he was tainted and defiled by sin. Hell was made for sin even though it wasn't made for man. Man was not meant to sin. He did so of his own will. This explains how it is punishment, but not meant for humans.

4. Yes there are father/ child analogies in the bible, but it goes far deeper. Don't use bible analogies unless you're including the context. Those analogies are for certain points. Yes, the bible does give the information, but you require proof. Once again, that proof would take much of the need for faith. The things I've typed are no more speculative than athiesm and other religions. The thing is, I admit that I believe by faith. I countered his attempted points and yours. You're making no progress.

[QUOTE="Trashface"][QUOTE="EboyLOL"][QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

EboyLOL

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

Nothing was torn to shreds. His attempted points were all addressed. Your post is a bit hostile, so you obviously have a pre existing belief in the matter. It's apparent you had a problem with my post in the first place. His posts were, however, more credible and taken more seriously than yours. His words were worth a few replies. Yours aren't worth any so there won't be any more.

Alright, one response. I never set out to disprove anything. Read more closely and you'll see that I said there would never be proof. I explained it. I never contradicted anything I said or typed anything that didn't make sense. If we had all the answers, it would mean we had the knowledge of God. That would prove God to be far less powerful than claimed. So if you had your proof, it would negate the info we've been provided. You had a pre existing mind set on the subject. Anyway, that really was your last response.

To surrender to ignorance and call it "God" has always been premature, and it remains premature today. Religious knowledge is the wrong knowledge... by-the-by faith aside and just a simple understanding of where we're all coming from the arguments used by the church are confusing arguments that answer nothing... because the average man's frame-of-reference now has more scientific knowledge to aid understanding... and the average man's frame-of-reference contains a more analytical edge than ever before with such information at our fingertips...

the absurd pro-god arguments become weaker and more desperate... until finally the flock is no more... some other faith-system developed in modern times designed to fit in with our perceptions of the world would perhaps have more followers if it had the establishment of christianity... christianity is old and doesn't fit into modern society nearly as much as the religious leaders would like... and that is why the counter-arguments and the lines of reason are ever more blurred... though it cannot be kept up forever... and it will not maintain itself forever... or for very long yet.

let theologist's theologise... the truth is actually very simple and clear-cut... and the grand ideas of complexity and difficulty of understanding that some christian debaters try to associatate with faith is actually just a mirror of how our minds work, and how much we know about the universe. As the ratios change however... it no longer fits in... and man will no longer be brainwashed. Not that 1900 years of christian brainwashing haven't been for the most part very good for our progress... to some extent. That is not the case any longer, however, as we see with increasing conflict between development and religious entanglement.

IF you don't realise what a fatal flaw it is to declare that we may not truly understand God or his workings, then you're trapped. You'll never understand that. Yet if you do understand the actual problem, that isn't fixed by faith, the actual problem by turning everything into smoke and mirrors to explain away all the contradictions to religion that modern progress brings to us... if you do see what true problem there is... then you will probably turn away from this narrow-minded christian belief.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in God... but to believe in Christianity, is quite an absurd standpoint indeed.

God isn't real.Spartan_385

Wow. You totally converted me.

1. From what I've seen personally, I have no choice but to believe. You can say you haven't seen evidence. You don't speak for everyone. There will never be verifiable evidence in the world's eyes. It would negate the need for faith.

2. I did. Maybe you didn't grasp it. Man disobeyed, therefore he was tainted and defiled by sin. Hell was made for sin even though it wasn't made for man. Man was not meant to sin. He did so of his own will. This explains how it is punishment, but not meant for humans.

4. Yes there are father/ child analogies in the bible, but it goes far deeper. Don't use bible analogies unless you're including the context. Those analogies are for certain points. Yes, the bible does give the information, but you require proof. Once again, that proof would take much of the need for faith. The things I've typed are no more speculative than athiesm and other religions. The thing is, I admit that I believe by faith. I countered his attempted points and yours. You're making no progress.

Trashface

This entire thing can be countered with this assertion:

Those of us who lean towards atheism or agnosticism do so on the basis that there is no verifiable evidence, if you can not provide it you will never win an argument because you are arguing on an entirely different premise and frankly we find a lot of what you say offensive because of that.

Of course I can really only speak for myself, but number two in particular is heinous because you don't really disagree with anything I said prior, you more or less just say in a lot more words "they deserve it". The other two points are defensible only in their lack of reliance on any kind of reason or logic.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

muppet1010

allow me to summarize his post for you pianist :)

along the lines of "god is above us... you cant attempt to understand him." Its quite a nice arguement really. In that it cant be argued against if the person can take that statement and dress it up numerous different ways.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

1. From what I've seen personally, I have no choice but to believe. You can say you haven't seen evidence. You don't speak for everyone. There will never be verifiable evidence in the world's eyes. It would negate the need for faith.

2. I did. Maybe you didn't grasp it. Man disobeyed, therefore he was tainted and defiled by sin. Hell was made for sin even though it wasn't made for man. Man was not meant to sin. He did so of his own will. This explains how it is punishment, but not meant for humans.

4. Yes there are father/ child analogies in the bible, but it goes far deeper. Don't use bible analogies unless you're including the context. Those analogies are for certain points. Yes, the bible does give the information, but you require proof. Once again, that proof would take much of the need for faith. The things I've typed are no more speculative than athiesm and other religions. The thing is, I admit that I believe by faith. I countered his attempted points and yours. You're making no progress.

Aidenfury19

This entire thing can be countered with this assertion:

Those of us who lean towards atheism or agnosticism do so on the basis that there is no verifiable evidence, if you can not provide it you will never win an argument because you are arguing on an entirely different premise and frankly we find a lot of what you say offensive because of that.

Of course I can really only speak for myself.

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that.

Trashface

Verifiable knowledge of the existance of God would not invalidate the supposed omniscience of God, it would not make us equal to God or even close to God (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent according to Christian faith). Evidence of God does not equate to any of those things.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that. Trashface

[QUOTE="muppet1010"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

Trashface

allow me to summarize his post for you pianist :)

along the lines of "god is above us... you cant attempt to understand him." Its quite a nice arguement really. In that it cant be argued against if the person can take that statement and dress it up numerous different ways.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that.

My friend... having knowledge equal to that of your god would still deprive you of his many other abilities... and humans are able to exceed in knowledge in so many areas and continue to do so... we lowly humans know nothing of God, theology is a stagnant field because there is nothing to be gained from pondering old and basic questions... the answers to which are plain and presentable... and yet still you are suckered into your strange reality... if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively... but you will likely never be able to do that.

if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively...

Tuvola

*cough* Urmm..you sure you don't mean OBJECTIVELY there?

To surrender to ignorance and call it "God" has always been premature, and it remains premature today. Religious knowledge is the wrong knowledge... by-the-by faith aside and just a simple understanding of where we're all coming from the arguments used by the church are confusing arguments that answer nothing... because the average man's frame-of-reference now has more scientific knowledge to aid understanding... and the average man's frame-of-reference contains a more analytical edge than ever before with such information at our fingertips...

the absurd pro-god arguments become weaker and more desperate... until finally the flock is no more... some other faith-system developed in modern times designed to fit in with our perceptions of the world would perhaps have more followers if it had the establishment of christianity... christianity is old and doesn't fit into modern society nearly as much as the religious leaders would like... and that is why the counter-arguments and the lines of reason are ever more blurred... though it cannot be kept up forever... and it will not maintain itself forever... or for very long yet.

let theologist's theologise... the truth is actually very simple and clear-cut... and the grand ideas of complexity and difficulty of understanding that some christian debaters try to associatate with faith is actually just a mirror of how our minds work, and how much we know about the universe. As the ratios change however... it no longer fits in... and man will no longer be brainwashed. Not that 1900 years of christian brainwashing haven't been for the most part very good for our progress... to some extent. That is not the case any longer, however, as we see with increasing conflict between development and religious entanglement.

IF you don't realise what a fatal flaw it is to declare that we may not truly understand God or his workings, then you're trapped. You'll never understand that. Yet if you do understand the actual problem, that isn't fixed by faith, the actual problem by turning everything into smoke and mirrors to explain away all the contradictions to religion that modern progress brings to us... if you do see what true problem there is... then you will probably turn away from this narrow-minded christian belief.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in God... but to believe in Christianity, is quite an absurd standpoint indeed.

Tuvola

Wow, you say pro god arguments are absurd, then later say it's ok to believe in god, not Christ. You say there's a real problem and Christianity is just smoke and mirrors. I just stripped all the needless words away and left the core points. You act as if scientific knowledge and religion are at odds, but they are not. They can go hand in hand if you look closely. The scientist that leads the human genome project is a Christian. He also mapped the human genome. Even scientists will acknowledge that we as small humans have many, many unanswered questions. You say because of man's scientific wisening, Christianity is becoming obsolete. Well you just helped me make a point. Even with all the scientific advances and everything we have learned, you still cannot disprove God. You will never be able to. I do agree that the flock will thin. It predicts that in the bible. It seems you have a resentment for christianity in particular. There are so many other religions, it's odd you have this one so targeted. Especially when fundamentalist Islam is far more opressive. As I've said, if we had all the answers, God would be proven to be far weaker than claimed. Us not knowing things far, far bove us is just part of the truth. Your own post contradicted itself. After all your words are stripped down, you've accomplished nothing. You see, I didn't come here to prove anyone wrong. That's what the atheists and such try to do. I just stated my points.Proof is so important to people like you, yet none of my points have been proven wrong. My purpose in this thread were to put my words out there. I did so and none were proven wrong. They can't be. I'll really leave the thread now because this has become a waste of time. Remember, many words don't add any more substance to your THEORIES.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

Your wall of text is invalid. Your whole foundation of an argument is from you misunderstanding the situation. Hell is not a punishment, but a result. It's what happens to the soul after being freed from the body never having been reunited with God. First off, you think the idea of God is illogical. In earlier times, you would have believed the Earth was flat because it's all your eyes were able to see. Secondly, one of the basises is faith. It's man's disobedience and Satan's deception that took man out of direct fellowship with God. Now we have to hang on and be reunited by faith. You act as if God should have prevented man from disobeying. Then he would be taking our free will. I addressed that. Anyway, your mind is made up and closed. As an athiest, you don't understand that you also believe by faith and have no proof. That makes you a hypocrite because you claim to require proof. At least the religious admit to believing by faith. Anyway, what I typed earlier is the true situation. You can waste more words if you'd like.

pianist

Yes, of course it is, because you certainly wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you may be wrong. Several things to address here:

1) I'm not an atheist. I find the atheist position to be as illogical as the theist position for the reasons you outlined in your post (strong atheists most certainly must have faith in the validity of their own unprovable claims). I am a skeptical agnostic, which is the only logical position a person can take when it comes to this matter, where there is no valid evidence to support either of the true positions. That is to say, I am open to the possibility of the supernatural, but will not believe in it unless I see evidence to prove its existence.

2) Saying that Hell is not punishment is akin to saying that jail is not punishment. There are constant references in the Bible (and other Heaven/Hell based religious texts) that suggest that God is directly involved in 'casting souls into the lake of fire,' of choosing between the saved and the damned, and of the nature of eternal suffering (which is obviously intended to intimidate readers). And when you understand that the lack of faith in most non-believers is based on an ENTIRELY understandable skeptical attitude a person will take towards any unproven claim, then you start to understand just how absurd it is that people should be cast into a place that was designed to punish Satan and other rebels against God simply for failing to believe in an unprovable idea. It frankly doesn't matter if Hell is intentional punishment or not - Hell was created to punish, and however a soul ends up there, it will be subjected to eternal punishment. Again, the Pontius Pilate irony is rich here.

3) In earlier times, I would also have believed that disease is caused by evil spirits. Still think that's the case? Or is microbiology just more 'junk science?' See, this road goes two ways - what you can't see may be real, but it may also not be real. You are correct to believe that we should never consider something to be impossible simply because we are not aware of it. But like I explained in point #1, I'm not denying the possibility of a supernatural realm. What I do believe is that it is silly to believe deeply in a truth or a reality BEFORE you have any evidence to confirm its validity.

4) When you, as a parent, prevent your child from doing something that could kill him or her, are you taking away his or her free will? If you were to demand your child obey you, but never present yourself to your child except in the form of writing to a general population, would you expect your child to obey your wishes and love you?

5) My mind isn't made up. I'm not in the habit of making up my mind when asked to make a decision about an issue for which insufficient evidence has been presented by both sides.

Don't post here if you don't expect your posts to be challenged. Writing that what you believe is true no matter what anybody else says when it is impossible to prove the claim is a good way to solicit objections, even from those who have not taken a direct position.

These debates will lead no where without setting up some ground rules of believes, if when beliveing in anything must be with proof.

Reading what you're arguing about is like existence explaining about its material or a soul proving its existence. When saying theres nothing prove God ... is non-sense! God dont need to be proven by you ...things you cant prove doesnt mean its not true but the possiblity of god existence is more sensable than you disobeying whats true accordng by logical proves, ..God proved himself in you anyway.

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Trashface

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"]

if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively...

Aidenfury19

*cough* Urmm..you sure you don't mean OBJECTIVELY there?

Well if you can notice that, perhaps you can turn your attentiveness to something more pressing. The point I'm making.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that. DeeJayInphinity

sigh..i will answer once more simply.

Hell was meant as punishment for the sinful (originally satan and the rebel angels). Satan tricked man and man was tainted by sin. Therefore the sin tainted man now goes there. And yes, providing proof of God would remove much of the need for faith. At many points in the bible, it speaks of believing what you can't see with the eyes.