why would god create us to put us in hell?

[QUOTE="Trashface"][QUOTE="muppet1010"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

Tuvola

allow me to summarize his post for you pianist :)

along the lines of "god is above us... you cant attempt to understand him." Its quite a nice arguement really. In that it cant be argued against if the person can take that statement and dress it up numerous different ways.

Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that.

My friend... having knowledge equal to that of your god would still deprive you of his many other abilities... and humans are able to exceed in knowledge in so many areas and continue to do so... we lowly humans know nothing of God, theology is a stagnant field because there is nothing to be gained from pondering old and basic questions... the answers to which are plain and presentable... and yet still you are suckered into your strange reality... if only I could provide you a way to step back from your christian self for just a moment and view it all subjectively... but you will likely never be able to do that.

Yet you're so quick to deny the possibility that it's you who have been suckered. I haven't always been a Christian. You can't prove my reality false anymore than you can prove yours true. You're so quick to deny the possibility that I may have seen things and know things you haven't seen.

[QUOTE="DeeJayInphinity"][QUOTE="Trashface"]Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that. Trashface

sigh..i will answer once more simply.

Hell was meant as punishment for the sinful (originally satan and the rebel angels). Satan tricked man and man was tainted by sin. Therefore the sin tainted man now goes there. And yes, providing proof of God would remove much of the need for faith. At many points in the bible, it speaks of believing what you can't see with the eyes.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"]

To surrender to ignorance and call it "God" has always been premature, and it remains premature today. Religious knowledge is the wrong knowledge... by-the-by faith aside and just a simple understanding of where we're all coming from the arguments used by the church are confusing arguments that answer nothing... because the average man's frame-of-reference now has more scientific knowledge to aid understanding... and the average man's frame-of-reference contains a more analytical edge than ever before with such information at our fingertips...

the absurd pro-god arguments become weaker and more desperate... until finally the flock is no more... some other faith-system developed in modern times designed to fit in with our perceptions of the world would perhaps have more followers if it had the establishment of christianity... christianity is old and doesn't fit into modern society nearly as much as the religious leaders would like... and that is why the counter-arguments and the lines of reason are ever more blurred... though it cannot be kept up forever... and it will not maintain itself forever... or for very long yet.

let theologist's theologise... the truth is actually very simple and clear-cut... and the grand ideas of complexity and difficulty of understanding that some christian debaters try to associatate with faith is actually just a mirror of how our minds work, and how much we know about the universe. As the ratios change however... it no longer fits in... and man will no longer be brainwashed. Not that 1900 years of christian brainwashing haven't been for the most part very good for our progress... to some extent. That is not the case any longer, however, as we see with increasing conflict between development and religious entanglement.

IF you don't realise what a fatal flaw it is to declare that we may not truly understand God or his workings, then you're trapped. You'll never understand that. Yet if you do understand the actual problem, that isn't fixed by faith, the actual problem by turning everything into smoke and mirrors to explain away all the contradictions to religion that modern progress brings to us... if you do see what true problem there is... then you will probably turn away from this narrow-minded christian belief.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in God... but to believe in Christianity, is quite an absurd standpoint indeed.

Trashface

Wow, you say pro god arguments are absurd, then later say it's ok to believe in god, not Christ. You say there's a real problem and Christianity is just smoke and mirrors. I just stripped all the needless words away and left the core points. You act as if scientific knowledge and religion are at odds, but they are not. They can go hand in hand if you look closely. The scientist that leads the human genome project is a Christian. He also mapped the human genome. Even scientists will acknowledge that we as small humans have many, many unanswered questions. You say because of man's scientific wisening, Christianity is becoming obsolete. Well you just helped me make a point. Even with all the scientific advances and everything we have learned, you still cannot disprove God. You will never be able to. I do agree that the flock will thin. It predicts that in the bible. It seems you have a resentment for christianity in particular. There are so many other religions, it's odd you have this one so targeted. Especially when fundamentalist Islam is far more opressive. As I've said, if we had all the answers, God would be proven to be far weaker than claimed. Us not knowing things far, far bove us is just part of the truth. Your own post contradicted itself. After all your words are stripped down, you've accomplished nothing. You see, I didn't come here to prove anyone wrong. That's what the atheists and such try to do. I just stated my points.Proof is so important to people like you, yet none of my points have been proven wrong. My purpose in this thread were to put my words out there. I did so and none were proven wrong. They can't be. I'll really leave the thread now because this has become a waste of time. Remember, many words don't add any more substance to your THEORIES.

Theories are based on some sort of suggestive influence, some sort of clear arrow that points in a direction and then can be experimentally verified perhaps. I mean that second point would just be a nice plus point

I dislike it when religious people list a bunch of scientists who are christian, I don't mean to say that to be one or the other is mutually exclusive. It doesn't have any bearing on christianity's truthfulness... you'll find there's a negative (not clear cut of course) correlation between IQ and religious piety. Just like if you go into any physics department you'll find about 80 percent of the professors are not religious in any way at all. Yet if you grow up with it you'll always hold it. But wait this isn't getting anywhere.

We don't have all the answers no.

Imagine if you will a crossword. A regular word-puzzle, you have clues and you have answers to fill it. Religion gives you all the answers. It gives you every answer you could possibly need, and it'll fill in your crossword perfectly... and it can be made so all the answers fit and can be seen to fit and make some sense. And yet the scientific method has only a few clues filled in... yet we can be sure to within a shadow of a doubt that these answers are the real answers... or approach the real answers in very real ways that the religious answers just don't approach... the religious answers are just that... they're designed to fill in all the clues yet there's no truth behind it... it's just a conveniant clue-filler...

yet is there not something more satisfying in not knowing all the answers, and working towards the truth as best as we can get to. I'm not concerned with limits and the far-flung future... people say there are boundaries to science and we will not know everything even at the end... yet 2 weeks before solar spectra were used to determine the chemical compositio of the sun the scientific community was in agreement that one thing we will never know is the composition of the stars.

Also if you are to capitalise the word God, indicating a proper noun naming a single entity that you call "God" ok then please also capitalise your other proper nouns. Sorry its just something that gets me... the very physical shape of the capitalised word "God" offends me somehow. It must be the devil in me. Or it must be me tiring of seeing it already after my short time in this gravitational well drifting through space.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Tuvola

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

So because it was written of mythologically in the past means it wasn't really done later? The people could have been familiar with the story, so Jesus used it to show he could do it in reality. That could apply to many older texts. These miracles from older stories could have been performed by Christ before their eyes to show that he was really what he claimed. There's a logical explaination. Nice try, though. You seem pretty arrogant. Many well spoken words still don't change the factthat you believe yourself correct, but cannot prove anything. There is no reason anyone should take you any more seriously. Nothing will be proven. Belief is a lot like love. In it's deepest forms, it's a decision. We have the information and it's up to us what we do with it. This really is my last post on this forum. I'll probably have to not read anymore, since it's so tempting to reply. As superior as you believe yourself to be, I have had a logical reply for every single attempted point. You've accomplished nothing at all. You would have believed the earth to be flat if you had been in earlier times because it would have seemed logical. As I believe by faith, you disbelieve by faith.

[QUOTE="Trashface"]Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that. DeeJayInphinity

Not Believing in God = Hell With or without proof , I guess thats what hell is made for. when satan take-over a mind and the mind choose to follow him then hes going down , when satan take-over a mind and the mind chooses NOT to follow him then he wins ... Following satan by NOT believeing in god existence or whatever.

Its that Simple , They say The human makes things SO complicated when its 1+1=?.

responses:

#1. Many won't see evidence. I have. If it weren't from my experience, my faith would be a lot weaker.

Classic example of a claim of false authority. Reality should be apparent to anyone alive who's willing to sit down and think.

#2. Hell was not created for man. They're cast in because they're bound by sin. The sinful is cast into Hell. God is perfect and pure beyond what we can imagine. That sin tainted us and defiled us. We cannot be in God's presence tainted.The Pontius Pilot analogy is wrong. God gave man free will, yet you think he should have prevented man from using it? Then man would be mindless. Man used free will to disobey.

You didn't respond to pianist's argument whatosever, and you contradict yourself when you say that Hell is not punishment with this response.

#3. alright, you're not an atheist, no need to address it.

#4. It's silly to compare the relationship between God and man to that of man and child. It's a much deeper situation and probably isn't completely comprehendable to us. You can't know the mind of God. Maybe it was so important to God that we choose to love and obey him that he lets us benefit from our good decisions and pay for our bad ones. Out of his love, he presented a path of reconciliation. Maybe it's a part of some larger plan that we have no idea of. maybe this, maybe that. God is beyond speculation. As I said, we've been provided with the info we need.

Rather than address pianist's excellent points and try to counter them, you simply tell him he must be wrong because 'he just doesn't know' (a point of yours you carefully contradict by adding 'but we have all the info we need'). An appeal to ignorance doesn't work for people interested in the truth.

#5. Barring a spiritual revelation, you won't have that evidence until the body dies.

Again, you can't just appeal to ignorance. This is a terrible, terrible argument.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

You state you're arguing the truth here, but all you've given us is a dump of shallow and fairly thoughtless rhetoric. There is no logical progression of ideas, merely an insistence upon your own doctrine. There is no support in this post, logically or factually, that you provide.

Trashface

[QUOTE="DeeJayInphinity"][QUOTE="Trashface"]Um, it's common sense that if we had all the answers and knew everything, we would have knowledge equal to that of God. That would make us equal or superior to God and would invalidate everything he's given to us and said. Yeah, we're lowly humans and it's sad you can't understand that. masters89

Not Believing in God = Hell With or without proof , I guess thats what hell is made for. when satan take-over a mind and the mind choose to follow him then hes going down , when satan take-over a mind and the mind chooses NOT to follow him then he wins ... Following satan by NOT believeing in god existence or whatever.

Its that Simple , They say The human makes things SO complicated when its 1+1=?.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Trashface

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

So because it was written of mythologically in the past means it wasn't really done later? The people could have been familiar with the story, so Jesus used it to show he could do it in reality. That could apply to many older texts. These miracles from older stories could have been performed by Christ before their eyes to show that he was really what he claimed. There's a logical explaination. Nice try, though. You seem pretty arrogant. Many well spoken words still don't change the factthat you believe yourself correct, but cannot prove anything. There is no reason anyone should take you any more seriously. Nothing will be proven. Belief is a lot like love. In it's deepest forms, it's a decision. We have the information and it's up to us what we do with it. This really is my last post on this forum. I'll probably have to not read anymore, since it's so tempting to reply. As superior as you believe yourself to be, I have had a logical reply for every single attempted point. You've accomplished nothing at all. You would have believed the earth to be flat if you had been in earlier times because it would have seemed logical. As I believe by faith, you disbelieve by faith.

[QUOTE="Tuvola"][QUOTE="Trashface"]

Yes and you will never win an argument either because you say you need proof, I say I don't. There is no winning. People believe what they believe and nothing can be disproven or proven (including the beliefsof athiests). That's why I usually post and move on which is what I'll do now.

Trashface

Nothing can be disproven or proven. But you can get evidence for something that backs up things... or even something to suggest you're on the right lines. But look at you. You pray to your godly figure of Jesus, yet this biblical figure that stands so proud at the forefront of your religious practise is just a copy of older gods like Isis and Dionysus, similar gods born to virgins, on the 25th of december, doing miracles, tested in the desert by satan, turning water into wine, being crucified...do a little research on Isis-Dionysus gods.

Your christian holy scripture is just a laughable amalgamation of older texts and stories... water into wine is an old trick Jesus... it's hillarious that the most widespread religious tradition in the worlds is a clear fraud. Yet people close their eyes to it... oh of course the church have their ridiculous explaination... of satan going back to create false impersonations. But this is not in the bible! This has been plucked from the air... literally an invention of the church... where does it stop?

What a sad and utterly self-destructive waste of time this business is.

So because it was written of mythologically in the past means it wasn't really done later? The people could have been familiar with the story, so Jesus used it to show he could do it in reality. That could apply to many older texts. These miracles from older stories could have been performed by Christ before their eyes to show that he was really what he claimed. There's a logical explaination. Nice try, though. You seem pretty arrogant. Many well spoken words still don't change the factthat you believe yourself correct, but cannot prove anything. There is no reason anyone should take you any more seriously. Nothing will be proven. Belief is a lot like love. In it's deepest forms, it's a decision. We have the information and it's up to us what we do with it. This really is my last post on this forum. I'll probably have to not read anymore, since it's so tempting to reply. As superior as you believe yourself to be, I have had a logical reply for every single attempted point. You've accomplished nothing at all. You would have believed the earth to be flat if you had been in earlier times because it would have seemed logical. As I believe by faith, you disbelieve by faith.

Faith faith faith faith faith faith faith faith faith. There is nothing to your argument but faith. And for you this is seemingly the be-all and end-all solution to the argument. How nice it is for you to be able to argue with one word. And this idea of lack of proof either way... bollocks. It's up to you to prove the assertion... and when things that can be proven to an extend now disagree entirely with what is written within the bible, you can of course suggest by some level of proof the bible has been disproven. This is not clear-cut, and christians now fall back into their hole of "interpretation" to carry on this absurdist tradition.

And when the arrow is pointed so far in one direction... and you still don't look at it. This is finally a point where faith must break. Let me explain faith to you for a second, from my somewhat reasonable (with what we KNOW) point of view... as opposed to your religiously minded point of view. It is an aspect of your incredibly complex and amazing brain, which is like an ocean inwhich the drifting jellyfish of the mind floats through. Faith itself is this incredibly powerful emotion designed to be so powerful by the current that is evolution. I read an excellent article detailing the importance of a faith emotion when linked to survival in groups.

When I describe faith in this way I am sure you are thinking of how my point of view can never be proven and neither can yours and faith faith faith faith faith faith but the trap you fall into again and again and again is this quite ridiculous practise of disregarding the necessity for a basic framework of logical.

And you become trapped in this "faith" contour, disallowing yourself to believe in anything else. And at the end of the day it comforts you. Because you can not accept the idea that after death there is a chance you will not exist, and you will never again exist. You want to believe fully and 100 percent that there IS more. Why is the idea of eternal nothingness so repulsive to so many, I know why! I know exactly why! And yet it's so hard to put into words. And yet I've realised there's nothing to fear from death, and the idea of everything stopping is just as wonderful as everything being so alive while you are alive. And there is a duality there, push each side to its extreme, and seek religious experience and meaning elsewhere. They can be found in abundance outside the confines of christianity. Try lysergic acid diethylamide.

Yet you're so quick to deny the possibility that it's you who have been suckered. I haven't always been a Christian. You can't prove my reality false anymore than you can prove yours true. You're so quick to deny the possibility that I may have seen things and know things you haven't seen.

Trashface

people complain that christians are intolerant, but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that it is you atheists who are intolerant and maybe racist.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

[QUOTE="unholymight"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]He wouldn't, because he didnt'.Bourbons3

Explain what you mean.

God isn't real.Spartan_385

Bingo

people complain that christians are intolerant, but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that it is you atheists who are intolerant and maybe racist.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

people complain that christians are intolerant, but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that it is you atheists who are intolerant and maybe racist.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

strategyking92

people complain that christians are intolerant, but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that it is you atheists who are intolerant and maybe racist.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

strategyking92

"People" said the self-titled King of Strategy, "complain that Christians are intolerant," and with that last word every back straightened and listened carefully, and His Majesty continued, "but all of you who try to debunk our faith are proving that" speaking louder now, "it is YOU... atheists," several audible gasps, a man in the back row faints in his chair, a woman with two children vacates the room, "that are intolerant" his voice falls... "and maybe" whispering now "racist!"

that's right... watch out for the united atheist league AKA the klu klux klan, not only do we hate god... we also hate blacks and albinos.

you really are a complete tosspot strategy king... I mean seriously...

These debates will lead no where without setting up some ground rules of believes, if when beliveing in anything must be with proof.

Reading what you're arguing about is like existence explaining about its material or a soul proving its existence. When saying theres nothing prove God ... is non-sense! God dont need to be proven by you ...things you cant prove doesnt mean its not true but the possiblity of god existence is more sensable than you disobeying whats true accordng by logical proves, ..God proved himself in you anyway.

masters89

But He does need to be proven if one is to believe in Him and know that He is real. Until humans discovered micro-organisms, there was no reason to believe in them, and had you presented the belief that a host of tiny life forms was responsible for illness (as opposed to evil spirits, for instance), you would be ridiculed. As I mentioned before, it is entirely possible that something you can not perceive DOES exist (which is why it's illogical to dismiss the possibility of a supernatural realm that is, at this time, beyond our comprehension). However, it is equally illogical to believe in something without questioning it when there exists no evidence for its validity.

When humans discovered that micro-organisms existed, it led to a new understanding of illness, and no one believed any longer that disease was caused by evil spirits (well, no rational, educated person). The evil spirit theory could be dismissed because a much more likely alternative explanation had been discovered. This is also why we can categorize things like the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and the gods on Mount Olympus to be nothing more than stories - because we can easily verify that these things don't exist in light of our current knowledge. We know there are no gods living on Mount Olympus. We know Santa doesn't have a house at the North Pole. We've been to those places. And we know the real reason money appears under a child's pillow when he or she leaves a tooth there is that someone else puts it there.

We don't know, though, how the universe was created, and certain religions have survived because they make claims we can not so easily falsify. But that, of course, does not mean that the unfalsifiable claims are true. When you reach a point where you can not know if something is true or not based on the available data, you must assume it is not true until you see evidence to the contrary. If I were to tell you that I have supernatural powers, you would not believe me (as well you shouldn't) unless I demonstrated those powers to you. And any person I met, religious or not, would react in the exact same way. So why, then, do you accept another set of unproven claims simply because they TELL you to believe despite the fact that they are not proven? Why would you have faith in the Christian God and not have faith in me?

The answer is obvious - you WANT to believe the Christian God is real, and you have no motivation to want to believe that I have supernatural powers. And really, that's all it boils down to. So don't tell me that you require no evidence to believe. The only way you can believe something to be true without evidence is if you want it to be true, and if you want it to be true, you'll go out of your way to find evidence, whether it is evidence or not. Saying that my existence in and of itself proves that Christianity is true is just not good enough, because there are many other unfalsifiable claims that suggest why I exist, and until one of them is supported with evidence, it is not possible to pick one as being definitely true and label the others as definitely false.

And finally, the possibility of a supernatural realm is no more sensible than the possibility that there is no supernatural realm... if you're talking about the objective meaning of the term. Subjectively, God existing is more sensible to you, but that certainly isn't the case for everyone.

Alright, one response. I never set out to disprove anything. Read more closely and you'll see that I said there would never be proof. I explained it. I never contradicted anything I said or typed anything that didn't make sense. If we had all the answers, it would mean we had the knowledge of God. That would prove God to be far less powerful than claimed. So if you had your proof, it would negate the info we've been provided. You had a pre existing mind set on the subject. Anyway, that really was your last response.

Trashface

Pianist was not arguing that humans should have knowledge of everything (omnipotence) in order for God to exist. He was arguing that belief in something without proof is a logical fallacy. He is correct.

You did contradict yourself when you claimed that Hell was not punishment but, "the result" and later described Hell as punishment.

In addition, you never really connected your points or answer why people should believe in something with nothing to go on.

I can match any point made in these debates, but I don't enjoy religious debates because it's a personal and touchy subject to me. You could say i'm close to the subject. Anyway, sure people can challenge me, but honestly, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes, I came here to put the truth out and I did. I usually don't even return to these type threads, but I did this time and addressed your attempted points. I'm pretty sure we can agree on one thing...the hope that you find the truth before it's too late. I won't reply anymore.

Trashface

Well, I will respect your wish not to continue this discussion. But it is a terrible tragedy to close one's mind to alternatives in a matter so open to possibility as this one is. We can indeed agree on one thing - that both of us continue to seek the truth, whatever it may be.

You believe in nothing, so why not let us believe in what we believe in?

strategyking92

[QUOTE="masters89"]

These debates will lead no where without setting up some ground rules of believes, if when beliveing in anything must be with proof.

Reading what you're arguing about is like existence explaining about its material or a soul proving its existence. When saying theres nothing prove God ... is non-sense! God dont need to be proven by you ...things you cant prove doesnt mean its not true but the possiblity of god existence is more sensable than you disobeying whats true accordng by logical proves, ..God proved himself in you anyway.

pianist

But He does need to be proven if one is to believe in Him and know that He is real. Until humans discovered micro-organisms, there was no reason to believe in them, and had you presented the belief that a host of tiny life forms was responsible for illness (as opposed to evil spirits, for instance), you would be ridiculed. As I mentioned before, it is entirely possible that something you can not perceive DOES exist (which is why it's illogical to dismiss the possibility of a supernatural realm that is, at this time, beyond our comprehension). However, it is equally illogical to believe in something without questioning it when there exists no evidence for its validity.

When humans discovered that micro-organisms existed, it led to a new understanding of illness, and no one believed any longer that disease was caused by evil spirits (well, no rational, educated person). The evil spirit theory could be dismissed because a much more likely alternative explanation had been discovered. This is also why we can categorize things like the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and the gods on Mount Olympus to be nothing more than stories - because we can easily verify that these things don't exist in light of our current knowledge. We know there are no gods living on Mount Olympus. We know Santa doesn't have a house at the North Pole. We've been to those places. And we know the real reason money appears under a child's pillow when he or she leaves a tooth there is that someone else puts it there.

We don't know, though, how the universe was created, and certain religions have survived because they make claims we can not so easily falsify. But that, of course, does not mean that the unfalsifiable claims are true. When you reach a point where you can not know if something is true or not based on the available data, you must assume it is not true until you see evidence to the contrary. If I were to tell you that I have supernatural powers, you would not believe me (as well you shouldn't) unless I demonstrated those powers to you. And any person I met, religious or not, would react in the exact same way. So why, then, do you accept another set of unproven claims simply because they TELL you to believe despite the fact that they are not proven? Why would you have faith in the Christian God and not have faith in me?

The answer is obvious - you WANT to believe the Christian God is real, and you have no motivation to want to believe that I have supernatural powers. And really, that's all it boils down to. So don't tell me that you require no evidence to believe. The only way you can believe something to be true without evidence is if you want it to be true, and if you want it to be true, you'll go out of your way to find evidence, whether it is evidence or not. Saying that my existence in and of itself proves that Christianity is true is just not good enough, because there are many other unfalsifiable claims that suggest why I exist, and until one of them is supported with evidence, it is not possible to pick one as being definitely true and label the others as definitely false.

And finally, the possibility of a supernatural realm is no more sensible than the possibility that there is no supernatural realm... if you're talking about the objective meaning of the term. Subjectively, God existing is more sensible to you, but that certainly isn't the case for everyone.

Overall , i can say that you cannot see any proves or evidence in God existence? or even have atleast some possiblities? or you're just denying all religions that beleives in god ? ...

first of all, Lets be straight here .. i'm talking here about Islam specifically and certainly it beleived in 'Allah' as God existence as most religions (like Christianity.jewess especially of its original copy before the deflectioning) .

And when you talk about god objectively you're denying his existence with no evidence supporting your falsify, because you just dont WANT to beleive in God and will go out of your way to find evidence, whether it is evidence or not! Sure people want to beleive what they think its more possibly realism , i'm not denying that but atleast when someone have something is more realism than they thought it would be ... you cant blame them or even deny thier prejudice and faith in that evidence which with no doubt support thier beleives ! And that evidence is ' Quran ' .

Finally , please before arguing with me or with anyone that embrace that religion First take a Tour in that Perfect Book before judging any word from my reply because that book gave me that certainty of what i'm saying here!

And look ! if you denyed reading it or even lied that you read it , then you'r ignoring and disobeying or even blindly or spitly denying the evidence and then i cant argue with you because its just a waste of LIFE (Not just time!!) .

And then you put in your One-of-the-supported-evidence List and choose one of them.

Overall , i can say that you cannot see any proves or evidence in God existence? or even have atleast some possiblities? or you're just denying all religions that beleives in god ? ...

first of all, Lets be straight here .. i'm talking here about Islam specifically and certainly it beleived in 'Allah' as God existence as most religions (like Christianity.jewess especially of its original copy before the deflectioning) .

And when you talk about god objectively you're denying his existence with no evidence supporting your falsify, because you just dont WANT to beleive in God and will go out of your way to find evidence, whether it is evidence or not! Sure people want to beleive what they think its more possibly realism , i'm not denying that but atleast when someone have something is more realism than they thought it would be ... you cant blame them or even deny thier prejudice and faith in that evidence which with no doubt support thier beleives ! And that evidence is ' Quran ' .

Finally , please before arguing with me or with anyone that embrace that religion First take a Tour in that Perfect Book before judging any word from my reply because that book gave me that certainty of what i'm saying here!

And look ! if you denyed reading it or even lied that you read it , then you'r ignoring and disobeying or even blindly or spitly denying the evidence and then i cant argue with you because its just a waste of LIFE (Not just time!!) .

And then you put in your One-of-the-supported-evidence List and choose one of them.

masters89

I'm not denying the possibility that any unfalsifiable religious claim is true. But I would not ascribe to any of them unless they were proven. It would be illogical to do so. I also think that the possibility that any human religion is correct is remote. Frankly, there's no reason, other than our arrogance, to believe that we are the focal point of the universe, which is what most human religions have claimed - that God (or gods) have a distinct interest in us and affect our lives and afterlives directly. A developed religion is really no more credible than any elaborate story when you get right down to it. Unless the validity of the stories can be proven, there is no reason to believe they are more than stories.

I'm certainly not looking for evidence to falsify the existence of the supernatural. Why would anyone look for evidence that simply does not exist? You can not disprove an unfalsifiable claim. What you can do is offer alternative explanations for important questions that religions address, but when you do that, you are not trying to disprove the religion so much as you are trying to understand the truth. See, it's not enough for a lot of people to just accept any answer that is given when it comes to complex philosophical or scientific questions. It's not good enough to say "well, I don't know how this universe came to be, so I'll just accept that God made it." It's simply an unacceptable explanation that leaves a person with nagging doubts, and for these people, forming beliefs around doubt simply isn't possible.

When you don't know if what you believe is true, how can you believe it? At that point, it boils down to wanting to believe it, and that is why religion is so prominent in society. Most people do believe in a religion, mostly because they want to believe that there is a caring supernatural being looking out for them, and that they will be rewarded with a happy afterlife (as opposed to nothingness) when they die. That's what allows them to believe on faith. And you're right - people who want to believe something will go out of their way to find ANY evidence for its proof. They'll find odd connections between reality and sacred text. They'll be quick to believe tales of miracles, and will be predisposed to believe that unusual circumstances in their own lives are directly related to their religion. They'll develop assumptions that will always favour the validity of their religion to the exclusion of any other possibility (like assuming that the world must have been created by Allah because it is complex - never mind the many other religions in existence, nor the fact that this complexity may have no supernatural cause at all). And they'll immediately dismiss any opposing viewpoint without any examination at all.

In short, it is more likely that a theist will jump to premature conclusions and develop his or her beliefs around what he or she wants to believe, as opposed to what is real, because theists begin from the assumption that one argument is definitely correct and go about trying to prove it, rather than beginning from no assumptions at all and simply coming to conclusions based on what a person can measure and observe in the natural world. Again, I should point out that these observations do not discredit the possibility that there is a supernatural cause for the universe. But by the same token, it is extremely premature to declare that there is DEFINITELY a supernatural cause of the universe, and downright foolish to claim that one religion is definitely right based on no evidence whatsoever, aside from what the religion itself claims (usually written in a sacred text, like the Bible or the Quran, for instance).

I'm familiar with the Quran, actually, though not as familiar with it as I am with the Bible. But that's really not the issue here, because the legitimacy of the text itself is unprovable for the very same reason that God (or Allah) is unprovable - He has not shown the world tangible, inarguable evidence that He is real (in the form of an appearance). Nothing short of the tangible (that is, measurable) appearance of a supernatural being would be enough to prove that the supernatural exists. There have been many reports of ghost sightings and god sightings and so forth, but in every instance, it can not be proven that the witness (who probably DOES genuinely believe he or she saw a supernatural being) saw what is claimed to have been seen, because there is insufficient tangible evidence to support a conclusion one way or another.

Skepticism is a natural aspect of human nature. And it is necessary if we have a true desire to learn what is really true about anything. If we believe anything we are told just because we are told to believe it or want to believe it, then our knowledge of the universe will not progress, as there will be no motivation to learn the truth. And even worse than that, you will come to view any evidence that contradicts your beliefs as an attack, which can lead to the sort of barbaric behaviour that we have witnessed in humans since the beginnings of recorded history.

I mean we didn't choose if we wanted to be born, so why would he put us in hell? Whats stopping him from just leaving us dead (unless you go to heaven).batboy113

The world is the way it is because Man thought they could live without His guidance or help. He gave Man everything they could ever need, and they abused His kindness. Now Man lives under their own rules and as you can see, they're not that good. God also stripped Man of forever life and various other divine gifts bestowed up him. God will eventually cast judgement upon Man and will embrace and save the few who live their lives in a righteous manner. Those that dedicate their lives to violence, hate, and other immoral acts that God detests, will be cast down into the abyss with the one they serve. You can't serve both Man and God.

If you can't commit your life to good, then don't complain about the bad.

[QUOTE="masters89"]

Overall , i can say that you cannot see any proves or evidence in God existence? or even have atleast some possiblities? or you're just denying all religions that beleives in god ? ...

first of all, Lets be straight here .. i'm talking here about Islam specifically and certainly it beleived in 'Allah' as God existence as most religions (like Christianity.jewess especially of its original copy before the deflectioning) .

And when you talk about god objectively you're denying his existence with no evidence supporting your falsify, because you just dont WANT to beleive in God and will go out of your way to find evidence, whether it is evidence or not! Sure people want to beleive what they think its more possibly realism , i'm not denying that but atleast when someone have something is more realism than they thought it would be ... you cant blame them or even deny thier prejudice and faith in that evidence which with no doubt support thier beleives ! And that evidence is ' Quran ' .

Finally , please before arguing with me or with anyone that embrace that religion First take a Tour in that Perfect Book before judging any word from my reply because that book gave me that certainty of what i'm saying here!

And look ! if you denyed reading it or even lied that you read it , then you'r ignoring and disobeying or even blindly or spitly denying the evidence and then i cant argue with you because its just a waste of LIFE (Not just time!!) .

And then you put in your One-of-the-supported-evidence List and choose one of them.

pianist

I'm not denying the possibility that any unfalsifiable religious claim is true. But I would not ascribe to any of them unless they were proven. It would be illogical to do so. I also think that the possibility that any human religion is correct is remote. Frankly, there's no reason, other than our arrogance, to believe that we are the focal point of the universe, which is what most human religions have claimed - that God (or gods) have a distinct interest in us and affect our lives and afterlives directly. A developed religion is really no more credible than any elaborate story when you get right down to it. Unless the validity of the stories can be proven, there is no reason to believe they are more than stories.

I'm certainly not looking for evidence to falsify the existence of the supernatural. Why would anyone look for evidence that simply does not exist? You can not disprove an unfalsifiable claim. What you can do is offer alternative explanations for important questions that religions address, but when you do that, you are not trying to disprove the religion so much as you are trying to understand the truth. See, it's not enough for a lot of people to just accept any answer that is given when it comes to complex philosophical or scientific questions. It's not good enough to say "well, I don't know how this universe came to be, so I'll just accept that God made it." It's simply an unacceptable explanation that leaves a person with nagging doubts, and for these people, forming beliefs around doubt simply isn't possible.

When you don't know if what you believe is true, how can you believe it? At that point, it boils down to wanting to believe it, and that is why religion is so prominent in society. Most people do believe in a religion, mostly because they want to believe that there is a caring supernatural being looking out for them, and that they will be rewarded with a happy afterlife (as opposed to nothingness) when they die. That's what allows them to believe on faith. And you're right - people who want to believe something will go out of their way to find ANY evidence for its proof. They'll find odd connections between reality and sacred text. They'll be quick to believe tales of miracles, and will be predisposed to believe that unusual circumstances in their own lives are directly related to their religion. They'll develop assumptions that will always favour the validity of their religion to the exclusion of any other possibility (like assuming that the world must have been created by Allah because it is complex - never mind the many other religions in existence, nor the fact that this complexity may have no supernatural cause at all). And they'll immediately dismiss any opposing viewpoint without any examination at all.

In short, it is more likely that a theist will jump to premature conclusions and develop his or her beliefs around what he or she wants to believe, as opposed to what is real, because theists begin from the assumption that one argument is definitely correct and go about trying to prove it, rather than beginning from no assumptions at all and simply coming to conclusions based on what a person can measure and observe in the natural world. Again, I should point out that these observations do not discredit the possibility that there is a supernatural cause for the universe. But by the same token, it is extremely premature to declare that there is DEFINITELY a supernatural cause of the universe, and downright foolish to claim that one religion is definitely right based on no evidence whatsoever, aside from what the religion itself claims (usually written in a sacred text, like the Bible or the Quran, for instance).

I'm familiar with the Quran, actually, though not as familiar with it as I am with the Bible. But that's really not the issue here, because the legitimacy of the text itself is unprovable for the very same reason that God (or Allah) is unprovable - He has not shown the world tangible, inarguable evidence that He is real (in the form of an appearance). Nothing short of the tangible (that is, measurable) appearance of a supernatural being would be enough to prove that the supernatural exists. There have been many reports of ghost sightings and god sightings and so forth, but in every instance, it can not be proven that the witness (who probably DOES genuinely believe he or she saw a supernatural being) saw what is claimed to have been seen, because there is insufficient tangible evidence to support a conclusion one way or another.

Skepticism is a natural aspect of human nature. And it is necessary if we have a true desire to learn what is really true about anything. If we believe anything we are told just because we are told to believe it or want to believe it, then our knowledge of the universe will not progress, as there will be no motivation to learn the truth. And even worse than that, you will come to view any evidence that contradicts your beliefs as an attack, which can lead to the sort of barbaric behaviour that we have witnessed in humans since the beginnings of recorded history.

I dont know where to start actually ...

... about skepticism , well i do beleive its one of the most important aspect in the human nature, especially when wanting to use it to beleive or even to want to know the truth , but sometimes when over using it will definitly drive you nuts and lose your association to any beleif , also i had to point out that theres alot of diffrences between want to know the truth about the world around you and wanting to have beleif in something(And sure with evidence) , and both of them wont let our knowledge to the world to stop progress and claiming that beleiving in something will stop our progress to knowledge and lead us to babaric behaviours ...

And by saying "... we believe anything we are told just because we are told to believe it or want to believe it ..." here if you'r talking about sacred texts ... i have to deny that ! Because , Quran text or any of the texts didnt urge you to just to beleive in it just as it came in the text without giving some facts and evidence, in spite of your denial of the legitimacy of the texts because once it declare with the conclusive evidence the legitimacy wont be the matter at all, right? and then it boils down to the tangible evedence wich will surely support the sacred text ... so as i informed in my past reply take a deep tour in the Book and you'll thank me for it. also if you have any book from your religion i dont mind reading it so then we're even and then we'll lead these debates to something usefull rather than wasting time .

Also while we're talking about aspects here, isn't wanting to beleive that there is a caring supernatural being looking out for us ... is one of them ? (or let say a 'God' rather than supernatural) its either you're having some deficiency in your nature or a deflection, and about the happy ending and rewarding is nothingness , is a random statment and so ignorant especially
when its with no proof.

About the universe complexity , you declared that saying god made it isn't enough ? but why dont we adress the most important question which is.. who made you?
before questioning who made the universe , because thats what matters really the most for most people wanting to know, and you know why you asked about the universe first ... because you're so lost with your skepticism and cant give it what it really wants which will sooner or later will drive you no where but to nothingness. also after that you'll be like ' ..Duh! Who made God ? or even Who Made Anything Really ?!?!?! ' And i'm not saying that because i'm against this skepticsm but all i'm saying is why going on circles just wanting to know everthing but denying the legitimacy to everthing that isn't enough for us to be even with it and live in peace?

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

PullTheTricker

Ignorant

if "hell" is real. That's what christian ideology tells us to believe. The bible tells us otherwise.mohfrontline

[QUOTE="PullTheTricker"]

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

masters89

Ignorant

I mean we didn't choose if we wanted to be born, so why would he put us in hell?Whats stopping him from just leaving us dead (unless you go to heaven).batboy113

Because he is a prick.

And nothing is stopping him but he won't, because he is a prick.

[QUOTE="masters89"][QUOTE="PullTheTricker"]

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

deepdreamer256

Ignorant

No. I atleast explained my belief he didnt . so thats kinda ignorant My Friend. :)

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"][QUOTE="masters89"][QUOTE="PullTheTricker"]

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

masters89

Ignorant

No. I atleast explained my belief he didnt . so thats kinda ignorant My Friend. :)

because God was nice enough to give us free will, therefore we were given a choice to follow him or reject him. Cesb02

Exactly, wich gives him the excuse of throwing us non belivers into hell.

Frankly, there's no reason, other than our arrogance, to believe that we are the focal point of the universe, which is what most human religions have claimed - that God (or gods) have a distinct interest in us and affect our lives and afterlives directly.pianist

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

He's holding a grudge. If Christianity is all about forgiveness, why does God have to hold me responsible for the actions of my ancestors? That would be like me holding George W. Bush, the president of America, responsible for the bad treatment and discrimination of Irish immigrants (I'm half Irish, to make the analogy make sense).

LJS9502_basic

Why are you explaining your answer? As I stated...and your answer doesn't seem to understand....man came up with the idea of original sin.....which is just another way of stating....the human condition to sin. God did not come up with that concept.:|

man never created anything.. If god is all powerful/omnipetent (as well as outside physics including time) then the being fore saw sin all along... Meaning the being would have to create such a thing.

[QUOTE="masters89"][QUOTE="deepdreamer256"][QUOTE="masters89"][QUOTE="PullTheTricker"]

There is no God...

Only the unkown.

deepdreamer256

Ignorant

No. I atleast explained my belief he didnt . so thats kinda ignorant My Friend. :)

I did my explainations anyway, but he didnt read it because he's that ignorant. :)