Are games purely entertainment, or are they becoming propaganda entertainment?

You can't say that Tetris or Mario bros was propaganda, but Call of Duty Modern WarFare, even Crysis (which will pit you against North Koreans as well as aliens) seem too much to be heading towards a propaganda tool to make us desensitized to killing our political enemies. Would it be OK, or would you buy the new games from Iran or from Lebanon that has you killing American and Isreali soldiers? What are your thoughts on that?

Although these games are forms of entertainment, there is a glorification of violence, but it becomes acceptable because it is simulated. I'm sure there is some excitment from the armed forces that enlisting will be up because games like this exist. However, I have no idea of the real stats of how many kids that play war games actually join that military. Most people I know do it because they have pride in serving, not with the hope of killing the enemy out there while driving around in a tank. War is ugly, but it's also fascinating. I'm sure after more time has passed, you will begin to see September 11th games just like you see Pearl Harbor games.7ate9

A September 11 game? You mean like dodging the the planes coming at you while you are sitting in the Twin Towers. :P

I think the Tom Clancy games and various other war gamesare guilty of this. I don't know if it can be considered propaganda, but it certainly always paints a very Black/White picture, dehumanizing the "enemy" and glorifying the U.S.

It's a video game. Why not have more with alternate realities? Some where Canada is the enemy, or the States? Or howabout agame from the perspective of the Germans in WW2? War games are very one-sided for the most part, thus giving a little bit of credibility to the propaganda argument.

I'm sure I'm not alone in admitting that I learned a fair amount of history of WW2 simply playing the Medal of Honor, Call of Duty games. But did I really learn an accurate depiction of that time, or an incredibly skewed one?

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.

These games are simply trying to be fun, and part of gameplay is immersion. The reason why you don't see a game about the US vs Canada is becuase it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

"You can't say that Tetris or Mario bros was propaganda"

Tetris not propaganda?

After hours of playing Tetris with that hypnotic music and St. Petersburg inspired architecture I was ready to convert to communism.

it would seem to me that the difference would be more than clear in reguards to that game where your killing Isralies or Americans and games like COD etc. the first thing is that preachers and members of the various 'western' governments arent telling people to play it as some kind of moral point. second,its not propiganda because the companys that make em have no vested interest in making people 'hate' the various nations depicted.

now if the American government, or Israel, or the Christian Churches started making games THEN i could see the point. just look to the motivations of the makers and you can see the difference. games are no worse than movies in this reguard, in fact id say they are far better since there are no 'stars' of games pluging a personel political agenda. from my own experiance a good game sparked an interest in me to learn more about the period or the 'factions' involved if it was based more or less on real life. WWII being the most obvious example.

it seems to me that it doesnt really matter for most games since there are unlikley to be a resurge of Nazi's any time soon in germany, and if there is im pretty sure that wanting to kill them would be a good thing. same with terrorists of every stripe. thats not propiganda to me its just good old fassion common sense.

[QUOTE="serieus"]

"You can't say that Tetris or Mario bros was propaganda"

Tetris not propaganda?

After hours of playing Tetris with that hypnotic music and St. Petersburg inspired architecture I was ready to convert to communism.

reghole

I was about to become a plumber myself.

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.

These games are simply trying to be fun, and part of gameplay is immersion. The reason why you don't see a game about the US vs Canada is becuase it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

dnuggs40

You don't count Dnuggs.. your a Vet.

How dare you kill innocent Arabs! You warmonger!

As for the OP/TC I wouldn't mind a video game playing me as Ghandi with an uzi blowing away Brits and dancing on their graves; reminiscent of the movie UHF.

Bring it on I say! The more sensational the better! Kinda like a Serious Sam based on real factions!

Hippe: we want to go up north to canada... the war...

Teal'C: The war with Canada?

Hippe: Far out!....HostileEffect

No, we are not going to use the Stargate to travel back to 1969.

Don't make me remove your primta.. shova!

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool.

dnuggs40

Well I must be a fool then. Last week while playing europa universalis 3 i was attacked by the kalmar union, which prompted me to ask the question: who the F**K is the kalmar union? After a little outside research, i now know who they were.

See, i may be a fool but now i know one more historical fact than you do.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool.

spierdalaj666

Well I must be a fool then. Last week while playing europa universalis 3 i was attacked by the kalmar union, which prompted me to ask the question: who the F**K is the kalmar union? After a little outside research, i now know who they were.

See, i may be a fool but now i know one more historical fact than you do.

Right...you actually learned about it else where. Point is, if you look to games to teach you things (and consider them a soure of knowledge) then you are a fool. But you, were not. You saw something in game, and RESEARCHED it, exactly like any normal person wanting knowledge would.

My comments were directed at the people getting bent out of shape over games offering "skewed" history. What do you expect? Guess you were not saavy enough to figure that one out :P

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.

These games are simply trying to be fun, and part of gameplay is immersion. The reason why you don't see a game about the US vs Canada is becuase it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

dnuggs40

You missed my point. I didn't say I learned ALLof my history from games, far from it. I'm just saying that I DID learn things from playing those games that I hadn't been previously taught, and because they try to be realistic in their presentation, they are taken as such. People who too easily eat up all of the media around them can easily be persuaded into believing something that isn't true. Hence the propaganda aspect.

And games don't need to make sense. They don't need to be grounded in reality. You can have an immersive experience while not being up to date on todays world(see Bioshock).

And again, if you really want to stay in the real world, then why not show the perspective of war from the enemies side? What are their motivations? What makes em tick? Our games don't do that, they say they are evil, and need to be killed.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.

These games are simply trying to be fun, and part of gameplay is immersion. The reason why you don't see a game about the US vs Canada is becuase it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

Alkpaz

You don't count Dnuggs.. your a Vet.

How dare you kill innocent Arabs! You warmonger!

Hey man, I was just doing what Uncle Sam told me to...

If there were Canadians on the battle field in Afghanistan I would have fragged them too!

canadian army/marines are just as good as US rangers/marines, and we share almost all kinds of weaponnery. youd have a hard time trying to 'frag' them. WARxSnake

JTFII FTW!!!

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.

These games are simply trying to be fun, and part of gameplay is immersion. The reason why you don't see a game about the US vs Canada is becuase it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

TheCrazed420

You missed my point. I didn't say I learned ALL fo my history from games, far from it. I'm just saying that I DID learn things from playing those games that I hadn't been previosuly taught, and because they try to be realistic in their presentation, they are taken as such.

And games don't need to make sense. They don't need to be grounded in reality. You can have an immersive experience while not being up to date on todays world(see Bioshock).

And again, if you really want to stay in the real world, then why not show the perspective of war from the enemies side? What are their motivations? What makes em tick? Our games don't do that, they say they are evil, and need to be killed.

They are GAMES!!!!!

How do you KILL people for FUN in a GAME if it is from a NEUTRAL point of view? I believe you miss the point of video games in it's entirety. They are not history lessons, they are meant to entertain.

Somebody else said this, but it is true:

"second,its not propiganda because the companys that make em have no vested interest in making people 'hate' the various nations depicted."

It's just a bunch of game companies creating games that will be FUN, and will SELL well. I really doubt people will buy games about those dasterdly and deadly Canadians, as the game will not make sense to the players. But throw in some Nazi's, and ya, people are all over it.

You are looking for answers to questions that don't make sense. Who cares about the other side? This is not a history book, this is Call of Duty (or whatever game that has you killing off tons of people).

I think thats a gross exageration of the current state of things. And even if it were true, most of the first and second world is smart enough to know the difference imo. Ya, so Crysis has North Korean soldiers, does that really mean anything? Or are they merely included because the world already thinks of them as bad guys?

And no, I wouldnt mind a game where the "bad guys" killed Americans and West Europeans....hell, I do it almost everyday with Counterstrike, go Terrorist team!

canadian army/marines are just as good as US rangers/marines, and we share almost all kinds of weaponnery. youd have a hard time trying to 'frag' them. WARxSnake

Na, we outnumber them like 10 to 1. It would be a cake walk. Not to mention, I wouldn't even bother fighting them head to head. I would just call an Air Strike on their positiion, no need to get out of my fox hole and go into the hot sun :P

You just have to separate yourfantasy from reality,and if you can't, then see a psychiatristmpchitown

Well said.

I don't know why people seem to think GAME COMPANIES have some kind of obligation to present to us fair and accurate facts and portrayals in their games...

[QUOTE="WARxSnake"]canadian army/marines are just as good as US rangers/marines, and we share almost all kinds of weaponnery. youd have a hard time trying to 'frag' them. dnuggs40

Na, we outnumber them like 10 to 1. It would be a cake walk. Not to mention, I wouldn't even bother fighting them head to head. I would just call an Air Strike on their positiion, no need to get out of my fox hole and go into the hot sun :P

you realise they can do the same thing... with the same planes? right? F18s, and even F35s?

why do most americans here treat canadians as trash i dont get it (im not attacking you, but your post reminds me of the general concensus americans seem to take here that canadians are weak and retarded). we're the same people, same military, we are as retarded as you, and we enjoy good beer...and we almost have the same number of obese people as you.

Im both american and canadian and im always torn in these useless retarded nonsensical arguments :P

I think its mainly the military thats trying to capitalize on the success of videogames. Some of those Army and Marine commercials try to make becoming a real soldier look fun like a videogame. I remember a commercial about 10 years ago that had a monster in it just like the Quake demo. This commercial is totally obvious about trying to get gamers to join http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AaOhyvpE1ECranler

Marine Doom was more fun.

Well there are plenty of WW2 games where Germans and Japanese are the enemy, but I don't hate Germany or Japan. You just have to separate yourfantasy from reality,and if you can't, then see a psychiatristmpchitown

Well said.

You start fabricating these connections and you yourself appear to have a guilty conscience of sorts imo. Games are designed to be fun! And lets face it: the masses want to play as good guys! Sure, I and many others would enjoy playing from a German or Japanese perspective, but lets face it....they were the bad guys! Now dont get me wrong, I am not accusing German soldiers of being nazis, but what they fought for was evil. Raise your hand of you support a genocidal leader with plans of dominating all of Europe? Raise your hand if you support wasting the young men of a country in Kamikaze attacks when you know your cause is doomed?

You guys keep trying to read into this and make it more than it seems, but the fact is that there are good guys, and there are bad guys. As for the conventional conflicts occuring now, I realize my country has done a fair share of horrible things, and for even more horrible reasons. But if you had to pick a winner, who would you choose: an oil-hungry govermnent that gives you almost every freedom you desire, or a radical muslim government that wants to revert back to the 10th century?

Lets not forget that Crysis is developed by a German company as well. You'll have to forgive me but it seems there is a lot of anti-American sentiments here, and in the grand scheme of things the US isnt the only one developing games with so-called "propoganda" in them. Crytek could have picked any country, or even made a country up, to demonize but they chose North Korea.

You can't say that Tetris or Mario bros was propaganda, but Call of Duty Modern WarFare, even Crysis (which will pit you against North Koreans as well as aliens) seem too much to be heading towards a propaganda tool to make us desensitized to killing our political enemies. Would it be OK, or would you buy the new games from Iran or from Lebanon that has you killing American and Isreali soldiers? What are your thoughts on that?

serieus

"Purely entertainment" are not the words I would use. I'd use "total hobby experiences". Gaming isn't just simple "gaming" anymore. It's evolved into a massive hobby that everyone in the world can share with each other through online multiplayer. Those who can't see how much gaming have evolved are clearly ignorant and unintelligent when they are so quick to judge the whole gaming universe.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

[QUOTE="WARxSnake"]canadian army/marines are just as good as US rangers/marines, and we share almost all kinds of weaponnery. youd have a hard time trying to 'frag' them. WARxSnake

Na, we outnumber them like 10 to 1. It would be a cake walk. Not to mention, I wouldn't even bother fighting them head to head. I would just call an Air Strike on their positiion, no need to get out of my fox hole and go into the hot sun :P

you realise they can do the same thing... with the same planes? right? F18s, and even F35s?

why do most americans here treat canadians as trash i dont get it (im not attacking you, but your post reminds me of the general concensus americans seem to take here that canadians are weak and retarded). we're the same people, same military, we are as retarded as you, and we enjoy good beer...and we almost have the same number of obese people as you.

Im both american and canadian and im always torn in these useless retarded nonsensical arguments :P

Understood, I see that mentality around the forums (and elsewhere) too. My comments are all in jest though. I happen to have many Canadian friends and think of Canada in high regards (Free Health Care, Lower Violent Crime, Not blowing all thier cash on defense, ect).

The thing about games of "war" are that there need to be enemies, and in order to fight our enemies with conviction (both in video games, and real life) we have to villainize them.

If we do not villainize our enemies, our soldiers won't fight enough. Why do you think television and movies have portrayed persons from the middle east as Villains for so long?

Only a select few movies, television programs, and styles of game take into account the "Other" perspectives. Take a look at the two movies by Clint Eastwood (director): Flags of Our Fathers, and Letters from Iwo Jima. These movies are companions - one looks at war through the eyes of the United States and the other (letters) looks at it from the Japanese perspective, going so far as to be in their native language.

Command & Concquer and similar RTS games often have multiple campaigns (even Warcraft RTS games do this). These campaigns are all in a ficticious world, though.

Then look at the Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142 games - we're forced, quite often, to play for "the other guys", and the audio is by default in the appropriate language. Say what you will about this franchise as a game, but it does a better job than many at being neutral.

Seems the rest of the games take a strong "us vs. them" perspective that demonizes. Half-life does it (against aliens and, later, a corrupt government or whatever); Quake has done it (against aliens), Splinter Cell does it, and Unreal Tournament... well, Unreal just dishes out pain judicously to all involved.

Should we demand more from our entertainment? I think so, but the problem with MASS entertainment is that it OFTEN caters to the STUPIDEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, or at least the average intelligence. And, I hate to tell you, there are a lot of stupid people out there to whom we are catering our entertainment. Once again, ignorance and anthropocentrism overpower our desire for culturally diverse forms of entertainment.

EDIT: I want to note that the smart people do not use games to help them form opinions of other cultures, but they might affect the society in which we live. I certainly do not care who the enemy is in a video game; I would not feel terrible about fragging virtual Americans, though I am one in real life.

Of coruse there is propaganda in video games no matter what country you go to. In the USA and her allied countries that have video game companies in there countries will not make a game that makes there own people the emeny. The Russian devolopers are not going to make a WW2 game telling the Germany story or the US story. They will make there story and sell it to people to try to win there minds on Russian politics. You see the Developers cant go out side of that box and make China the good guys and the West the bad. If they did the same people who push these type of propaganda objectives own the press as well. So if they did the press will hit that developer hard and basically destroy the game sales or worst stop it from being release. So dont be fool into thinking that the Gaming Industy is not a propaganda tool for governments, yoiu just have to see the truth and play the games as games and not let any of that games content to sway your jugdements and views of the world.

Of coruse there is propaganda in video games no matter what country you go to. In the USA and her allied countries that have video game companies in there countries will not make a game that makes there own people the emeny. The Russian devolopers are not going to make a WW2 game telling the Germany story or the US story. They will make there story and sell it to people to try to win there minds on Russian politics. You see the Developers cant go out side of that box and make China the good guys and the West the bad. If they did the same people who push these type of propaganda objectives own the press as well. So if they did the press will hit that developer hard and basically destroy the game sales or worst stop it from being release. So dont be fool into thinking that the Gaming Industy is not a propaganda tool for governments, yoiu just have to see the truth and play the games as games and not let any of that games content to sway your jugdements and views of the world.

J-REAL

:lol:

This is a funny post!

If I am not mistaken, COD 4 wont be propaganda based, cause the Brits are allied with Eastern European rebels (Russian, etc) against the main military (so your allied with Russians and such, against Russians).

As for the Tom Clancy games, I agree, they are mostly propaganda.

North Korea is nothing but propaganda. I think Kim Jong Il spent millions if not more on creating propaganda material for children, saying he is god or whatever. But dont quote me, I heard this in school.

North Korea is nothing but propaganda. I think Kim Jong Il spent millions if not more on creating propaganda material for children, saying he is god or whatever. But dont quote me, I heard this in school.

sepheronX

Lol! Thats the whole point you heard it somewhere in school, tv, newspaper. To be honest No one knows until you go there yourself and talk to the people. We are spoon fed everything! Its just like when the US evaded Iraq, they had a guy on all the US networks claiming to have been working on Iraq WMD program. Everybody listen to this guy comes to find out that he never did work on any such program but the US paid him to say these things to fool the people. And what do you know no WMDs in Iraq. 95% of the world has been brainwash and you tell people this and they think its funny!

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

reghole

lol!

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

reghole

That game was developed by the US Military for the intended purpose of RECRUITING people into the military. Are you really going to generalize the entire game industry (which is not goverment related and are private businesses) and make such an judgement based from one solitary game? Really? Seriously?

:lol:

Yes...the game industry ispushing propaganda in order to brain wash the youth and make us hate each other. Now wheres my tin foil hat and glass of kool-aid?

[QUOTE="reghole"]

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

dnuggs40

That game was developed by the US Military for the intended purpose of RECRUITING people into the military. Are you really going to generalize the entire game industry (which is not goverment related and are private businesses) and make such an judgement based from one solitary game? Really? Seriously?

:lol:

Yes...the game industry ispushing propaganda in order to brain wash the youth and make us hate each other. Now wheres my tin foil hat and glass of kool-aid?

America's Army was used as a GLARING example the games can be used to promote an agenda or idea. True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force...

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"][QUOTE="reghole"]

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

reghole

That game was developed by the US Military for the intended purpose of RECRUITING people into the military. Are you really going to generalize the entire game industry (which is not goverment related and are private businesses) and make such an judgement based from one solitary game? Really? Seriously?

:lol:

Yes...the game industry ispushing propaganda in order to brain wash the youth and make us hate each other. Now wheres my tin foil hat and glass of kool-aid?

America's Army was used as a GLARING example the games can be used to promote an agenda or idea. True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force...

"True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force..."

And what other force is there? Secret goverment programs to get EA games to publish evil propaganda? CIA training developers to infiltrate game studios and launch black operations to include propaganda? lol...get real. At least you got the first part right, which is MONEY drives the game industry.

Just becuase the US Army found an effective tool in recruitment, does not mean ANY game company is following suit. Game companies have no STAKE in propaganda. It's not profitable, and thats the bottom line. The only reason America's Army is propaganda, is becuase the Military (creator of the game) is not concerned with money, their investment was RECRUITMENT.

There are games out there that are purely propaganda....

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/antijapanwaronline/index.html?tag=result;title;0

[QUOTE="reghole"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"][QUOTE="reghole"]

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

dnuggs40

That game was developed by the US Military for the intended purpose of RECRUITING people into the military. Are you really going to generalize the entire game industry (which is not goverment related and are private businesses) and make such an judgement based from one solitary game? Really? Seriously?

:lol:

Yes...the game industry ispushing propaganda in order to brain wash the youth and make us hate each other. Now wheres my tin foil hat and glass of kool-aid?

America's Army was used as a GLARING example the games can be used to promote an agenda or idea. True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force...

"True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force..."

And what other force is there? Secret goverment programs to get EA games to publish evil propaganda? CIA training developers to infiltrate game studios and launch black operations to include propaganda? lol...get real. At least you got the first part right, which is MONEY drives the game industry.

Just becuase the US Army found an effective tool in recruitment, does not mean ANY game company is following suit. Game companies have no STAKE in propaganda. It's not profitable, and thats the bottom line. The only reason America's Army is propaganda, is becuase the Military (creator of the game) is not concerned with money, their investment was RECRUITMENT.

I think we may differ on the definition of propaganda. Propaganda as defined byMerriem-Webster:

pro·pa·gan·da:
Function: noun
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also: a public action having such an effect

Propaganda is not exclusive to a government or institution. It is a tool to further any idea. Granted the original poster, specified political, I read it broader... ALL media is used propagate memes on one level or another...

Now let me get my tin foil hat