~(Deus Ex 1- 2 - 3)

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

UT really didn't sell well on consoles either.

I don't think I can name a single game that just bombed on PC because of simplified design decisions that was really successful on console. So again, where is the proof of this "consolization" theory? A blockbuster games sells straight across the board on all the systems, a game that is a dud does poor on all the systems.

bad design decisions suck for everyone and sales of the games reflect that.

smokeydabear076

I don't care what the guy said, he missed his mark as soon as the game didn't sell due to him making a crappy game.

This is like me saying "i'm going to kill your dog for you" That's a crappy thing to do and you probably don't want it.. but because i said it it must make it true and i did kill your dog for you.

ummm you have no facts. let's take a look at some games that were "dumbed down for consoles" shall we?

Bioshock: Sold well on PC and 360

R6 Vegas: Sold well on PC and 360

Oblivion: Sold Well on PC and 360

Deus Ex 2, sold poorly on PC and xbox.

Oh now I can see how correct you are in saying that PC elitists have much better tastes and higher standards of games.

smerlus

not taking a side either way, as far as I know R6 Vegas didn't really sell well on pc and morrowind on pc sold more than oblivion on pc

Deus Ex in my opinion is one of the greatest PC games ever made.

Deus Ex: The Invisible War was not nearly as good as the first one but I still enjoyed playing it.

Deus Ex 3, well I've got my fingers crossed on this one, I really hope they do a phenomenal job with the game and it rivals the first one.

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

ummm you have no facts. let's take a look at some games that were "dumbed down for consoles" shall we?

Bioshock: Sold well on PC and 360

R6 Vegas: Sold well on PC and 360

Oblivion: Sold Well on PC and 360

Deus Ex 2, sold poorly on PC and xbox.

Oh now I can see how correct you are in saying that PC elitists have much better tastes and higher standards of games.

naval

not taking a side either way, as far as I know R6 Vegas didn't really sell well on pc and morrowind on pc sold more than oblivion on pc

well the R6 series on PC has been on a steady decline and even after a buggy "consolized" game, it still managed to sell more than the previous entry in the series.

and once again, Morrowind sold well on consoles also. It was a platinum hit and also saw a GOTY edition.

so far there's no proof of consolization. Good games sell good across all systems, bad games sell bad.

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

UT really didn't sell well on consoles either.

I don't think I can name a single game that just bombed on PC because of simplified design decisions that was really successful on console. So again, where is the proof of this "consolization" theory? A blockbuster games sells straight across the board on all the systems, a game that is a dud does poor on all the systems.

bad design decisions suck for everyone and sales of the games reflect that.

smerlus

I don't care what the guy said, he missed his mark as soon as the game didn't sell due to him making a crappy game.

This is like me saying "i'm going to kill your dog for you" That's a crappy thing to do and you probably don't want it.. but because i said it it must make it true and i did kill your dog for you.

The fact is Epic killed my dog. Those seven modes are simplified among other things. So it isn't a matter of whether or not my dog is dead, it is a matter of why.

[QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

ummm you have no facts. let's take a look at some games that were "dumbed down for consoles" shall we?

Bioshock: Sold well on PC and 360

R6 Vegas: Sold well on PC and 360

Oblivion: Sold Well on PC and 360

Deus Ex 2, sold poorly on PC and xbox.

Oh now I can see how correct you are in saying that PC elitists have much better tastes and higher standards of games.

smerlus

not taking a side either way, as far as I know R6 Vegas didn't really sell well on pc and morrowind on pc sold more than oblivion on pc

well the R6 series on PC has been on a steady decline and even after a buggy "consolized" game, it still managed to sell more than the previous entry in the series.

and once again, Morrowind sold well on consoles also. It was a platinum hit and also saw a GOTY edition.

so far there's no proof of consolization. Good games sell good across all systems, bad games sell bad.

Also the way you put it about sales is that everyone who bought the game enjoyed it. When you say "hey look PC elitists like crappy games too because the sales were high", that isn't necessarily true. You are also forgetting that the PC gaming base isn't comprised of completely "hardcore" players, so who knows a lot of those people could be casual players who welcome the simplifications.

It is not about sales!!!

Of course a game will sell more on consoles because there are more console owners than PC gamers! The issue is game quality, which is being hampered by the console market. Games on the PC are different than on consoles even when you release the game on all platforms they will not be identical!

Millions of people watch Tv! They watch rubbish like Americas Next Top Model & Big Brother not to mention the endless list of soap operas! Those shows have huge ratings but it dosen't make them good shows. It just means that the general public are not very intelligent and would paint drying if you put it on a Tv screen!

Console gaming is a quick-fix rush for half an hour or so! The games are designed to suit that gaming mentality!

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

UT really didn't sell well on consoles either.

I don't think I can name a single game that just bombed on PC because of simplified design decisions that was really successful on console. So again, where is the proof of this "consolization" theory? A blockbuster games sells straight across the board on all the systems, a game that is a dud does poor on all the systems.

bad design decisions suck for everyone and sales of the games reflect that.

smokeydabear076

I don't care what the guy said, he missed his mark as soon as the game didn't sell due to him making a crappy game.

This is like me saying "i'm going to kill your dog for you" That's a crappy thing to do and you probably don't want it.. but because i said it it must make it true and i did kill your dog for you.

The fact is Epic killed my dog. Those seven modes are simplified among other things. So it isn't a matter of whether or not my dog is dead, it is a matter of why.

so i guess PC gaming is dying because Cliffy B and Peter Molyneaux said so I don't know why people argue against gaming gods who never say dumb things.

What the dead dog analogy meant is you can say you're doing anything for anyone. I'll steal your wallet for you, I'll mug your grandmother for you...

unless it is well recieved, which UTIII was not, then how was it "for consoles" (cater to consoles) when no one bought it? It was a crappy game that they over simplified and people across all platforms saw it as a crappy game.

It is not about sales!!!

Millions of people watch Tv! They watch rubbish like Americas Next Top Model & Big Brother not to mention the endless list of soap operas! Those shows have huge ratings but it dosen't make them good shows. It just means that the general public are not very intelligent and would paint drying if you put it on a Tv screen!

Console gaming is a quick-fix rush for half an hour or so! The games are designed to suit that gaming mentality!

gamespotsnn1

What I'm saying is I'm tired of PC elitists using garbage terms that they have very little to back up like "consolization". I have an HD tv and I can easily look down on people with standard tvs... I can even go around and start labeling shows as dumb because they are "standardized" but if I'm one of those millions of people watching American Idle, what gives me a right to say that? Could it be that I have an HD TV and I enjoy a simpler game?

Oblivion, Bioshock, R6... all appealed to the lowest common denominator across ALL systems, PC or consoles. I'm tired of people saying that simplified games are meant only for consoles, when PC gamers eat them up too.

However i disagree with your final generalization. I can just as easily pick up Neverwinter Nights 2 for an hour as I can with Persona 3. I can play Guitar Hero for 6 hours and then boot up City of Heroes for 30 minutes.

System /= Amount of enjoyment one can find from a game for a certain period of time.

What' I'm saying is that all these decisions are made by the devs, not the system they are found on.

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

UT really didn't sell well on consoles either.

I don't think I can name a single game that just bombed on PC because of simplified design decisions that was really successful on console. So again, where is the proof of this "consolization" theory? A blockbuster games sells straight across the board on all the systems, a game that is a dud does poor on all the systems.

bad design decisions suck for everyone and sales of the games reflect that.

smerlus

I don't care what the guy said, he missed his mark as soon as the game didn't sell due to him making a crappy game.

This is like me saying "i'm going to kill your dog for you" That's a crappy thing to do and you probably don't want it.. but because i said it it must make it true and i did kill your dog for you.

The fact is Epic killed my dog. Those seven modes are simplified among other things. So it isn't a matter of whether or not my dog is dead, it is a matter of why.

so i guess PC gaming is dying because Cliffy B and Peter Molyneaux said so I don't know why people argue against gaming gods who never say dumb things.

What the dead dog analogy meant is you can say you're doing anything for anyone. I'll steal your wallet for you, I'll mug your grandmother for you...

unless it is well recieved, which UTIII was not, then how was it "for consoles" (cater to consoles) when no one bought it? It was a crappy game that they over simplified and people across all platforms saw it as a crappy game.

Well yeah can say you are doing anything for anyone, but what proof do you have that he didn't do what he said? If I say I'm going to kill your dog for you, does that mean I'm not doing it for you? Does that imply that there is no possible way that I could be doing it for you? What makes you think they took away those modes for the PC crowd?

Like I said before success doesn't have anything to do with it. Success isn't guaranteed with any business plan. If they decided to simplify the game for console people so it would be more appealing to the console crowd and the console people didn't find it appealing it doesn't change the fact that they simplified the game for that purpose. They simplified the game for console players.

Console players and PC gamers didn't buy the game. They still simplified the game with console players in mind, poor sales doesn't change this.

I don't think we are going to solve anything by going on and on like this (we both see it very differently), so I'm just going to give up. I got better things to do anyways.;)

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

UT really didn't sell well on consoles either.

I don't think I can name a single game that just bombed on PC because of simplified design decisions that was really successful on console. So again, where is the proof of this "consolization" theory? A blockbuster games sells straight across the board on all the systems, a game that is a dud does poor on all the systems.

bad design decisions suck for everyone and sales of the games reflect that.

smokeydabear076

I don't care what the guy said, he missed his mark as soon as the game didn't sell due to him making a crappy game.

This is like me saying "i'm going to kill your dog for you" That's a crappy thing to do and you probably don't want it.. but because i said it it must make it true and i did kill your dog for you.

The fact is Epic killed my dog. Those seven modes are simplified among other things. So it isn't a matter of whether or not my dog is dead, it is a matter of why.

so i guess PC gaming is dying because Cliffy B and Peter Molyneaux said so I don't know why people argue against gaming gods who never say dumb things.

What the dead dog analogy meant is you can say you're doing anything for anyone. I'll steal your wallet for you, I'll mug your grandmother for you...

unless it is well recieved, which UTIII was not, then how was it "for consoles" (cater to consoles) when no one bought it? It was a crappy game that they over simplified and people across all platforms saw it as a crappy game.

Well yeah can say you are doing anything for anyone, but what proof do you have that he didn't do what he said? If I say I'm going to kill your dog for you, does that mean I'm not doing it for you? Does that imply that there is no possible way that I could be doing it for you? What makes you think they took away those modes for the PC crowd?

Like I said before success doesn't have anything to do with it. Success isn't guaranteed with any business plan. If they decided to simplify the game for console people so it would be more appealing to the console crowd and the console people didn't find it appealing it doesn't change the fact that they simplified the game for that purpose. They simplified the game for console players.

Console players and PC gamers didn't buy the game. They still simplified the game with console players in mind, poor sales doesn't change this.

Cliffy B made consoles his development focus because PC gaming is dying, this is a fact. he even stated it. so i see it very relevent to the argument. Is Pc gaming actually dying? no.

Mark Rein said he simplified the controls for consoles, this is a fact. Did the console players like his design decisions, no.

and you're not getting my anaolgy all the way. now if I killed your dog for you, stole your money for you and touched your grandmother inappropriately for you, and you wanted none of these things done for you nor did you condone them... how you you feel if people were like "wow that guy that did all those things is really messed up, those things were "SmokeydaBearisized" and anything that even remotely resembles those things people start tossing around that term.

Why should the blame fall on you when it was a moron that did all the negative stuff in your name and you didn't like any of it?

that's what sales has to do with the argument. Shivering Isles on the 360 version came with a gamestopping bug...is that game PCisized even though it's a consolized game first? because it had the negative traits associated with both platforms.

Yep we probably could argue the point for ages and get nowhere! It's the first time I've heard the phrase "consolisation" but there you go, guess its something we will have to deal with. Just hope that Deus Ex 3 dosen't suffer to suit the consoles.

So back to Deus Ex!

Other than JC! Who was your favourite character an why???

Cliffy B made consoles his development focus because PC gaming is dying, this is a fact. he even stated it. so i see it very relevent to the argument. Is Pc gaming actually dying? no.

Mark Rein said he simplified the controls for consoles, this is a fact. Did the console players like his design decisions, no.

and you're not getting my anaolgy all the way. now if I killed your dog for you, stole your money for you and touched your grandmother inappropriately for you, and you wanted none of these things done for you nor did you condone them... how you you feel if people were like "wow that guy that did all those things is really messed up, those things were "SmokeydaBearisized" and anything that even remotely resembles those things people start tossing around that term.

Why should the blame fall on you when it was a moron that did all the negative stuff in your name and you didn't like any of it?

that's what sales has to do with the argument. Shivering Isles on the 360 version came with a gamestopping bug...is that game PCisized even though it's a consolized game first? because it had the negative traits associated with both platforms.

smerlus

See people here won't get it. Chances are the majority of the people that come here are not casual gamers. So when I say these games were simplified for console gamers people get all upset because they believe that it implies they as a console gamer have to support the changes, when they do not. Consoles have a wide casual base, that doesn't mean that all console gamers are casual, nor does it mean that they all want these simplifications. There is a good chance that a lot of gamers here, yourself included, would welcome the plentiful modes that UT2004 featured in UT3. But when the marketing people did their job at Epic, they came to the conclusion that the game should be simpler because the casual base had been increased substantially due to the introduction of the console market. Maybe the game would be too complex for the average customer. Therefore they decided to take away game modes and enhance the experience for the people who do not enjoy the complexity of certain games. They made a mistake and it wasn't the only one, their timing was really poor and that was probably the main cause of extremely poor sales. Blablabla... if you don't get it by now it isn't going to be worth typing up the rest.

Why should the blame fall on you when it was a moron that did all the negative stuff in your name and you didn't like any of it?

The blame doesn't fall on everyone and overall the developers and marketing folks get the most blame. I also blame the casual majority, the folks that want these changes, for having the stronger say in the mind of the marketing people. I know business is about making money, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy the outcome or most profitable route. In the case of UT3 consolization didn't help them. For other games I'm sure it did.

The "moron doing the negative stuff" is the part I call "consolization", because the morons are doing it for the sake of the consoles. Like you said, just because they do it in the name of somethings doesn't mean the all of the "things" approve. So I'm not saying every console player out there wants these simplifications, I'm saying it was done for console players because they believed that the probable majority of their customers (console players) would want the changes.

Also, to weigh in on the "consolization" debate, you've only mentioned one game thus far in the argument. The decisions of one misguided game developer do not govern the entire industry, and the term "consolization" has been around long before UT3. Oblivion was "Consolized," but all they tried to do was address the complaints they got about Morrowind. I don't recall Bethesda ever saying that they were simplifying the game to appeal to the console gamers.Mediocre_man90

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

Cliffy B made consoles his development focus because PC gaming is dying, this is a fact. he even stated it. so i see it very relevent to the argument. Is Pc gaming actually dying? no.

Mark Rein said he simplified the controls for consoles, this is a fact. Did the console players like his design decisions, no.

and you're not getting my anaolgy all the way. now if I killed your dog for you, stole your money for you and touched your grandmother inappropriately for you, and you wanted none of these things done for you nor did you condone them... how you you feel if people were like "wow that guy that did all those things is really messed up, those things were "SmokeydaBearisized" and anything that even remotely resembles those things people start tossing around that term.

Why should the blame fall on you when it was a moron that did all the negative stuff in your name and you didn't like any of it?

that's what sales has to do with the argument. Shivering Isles on the 360 version came with a gamestopping bug...is that game PCisized even though it's a consolized game first? because it had the negative traits associated with both platforms.

smokeydabear076

See people here won't get it. Chances are the majority of the people that come here are not casual gamers. So when I say these games were simplified for console gamers people get all upset because they believe that it implies they as a console gamer have to support the changes, when they do not. Consoles have a wide casual base, that doesn't mean that all console gamers are casual, nor does it mean that they all want these simplifications. There is a good chance that a lot of gamers here, yourself included, would welcome the plentiful modes that UT2004 featured in UT3. But when the marketing people did their job at Epic, they came to the conclusion that the game should be simpler because the casual base had been increased substantially due to the introduction of the console market. Maybe the game would be too complex for the average customer. Therefore they decided to take away game modes and enhance the experience for the people who do not enjoy the complexity of certain games. They made a mistake and it wasn't the only one, their timing was really poor and that was probably the main cause of extremely poor sales. Blablabla... if you don't get it by now it isn't going to be worth typing up the rest.

Why should the blame fall on you when it was a moron that did all the negative stuff in your name and you didn't like any of it?

The blame doesn't fall on everyone and overall the developers and marketing folks get the most blame. I also blame the casual majority, the folks that want these changes, for having the stronger say in the mind of the marketing people. I know business is about making money, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy the outcome or most profitable route. In the case of UT3 consolization didn't help them. For other games I'm sure it did.

The "moron doing the negative stuff" is the part I call "consolization", because the morons are doing it for the sake of the consoles. Like you said, just because they do it in the name of somethings doesn't mean the all of the "things" approve. So I'm not saying every console player out there wants these simplifications, I'm saying it was done for console players because they believed that the probable majority of their customers (console players) would want the changes.

but their not doing it just because of consoles and sales across the board prove this. UTIII bombed on both platforms, Deus Ex 2 bombed on both platforms, Bioshock, Oblivion, Morrowind all sold well on both platforms... so how come one platform is being blamed for the simplicity of these games and not the lowest denominator on both sides?

In my head this seems so much like common sense but i don't know why people aren't understanding this...

ok let's say I made the best PC game ever and then for my next game I boxed up a piece of feces and sold it. now if it sold poorly across the PC and Xbox 360, which I would expect crap to do... why would it be the console's fault?

Also what if it sold really well? let's say i sold over a million on both platforms. How does the console get the blame once again when both PC and PS3 users bought it like crazy?

could it be that there are casual gamers on both platforms that like simplified games? Could it be that games that come out and are scorned by both platforms just suck and suffered from poor design decisions?

Or are you the type that believes in Santa Clause, The Tooth Faily and consolization? because gifts being delivered by a fat man in a red suit, a winged nocturnal creature that swaps teeth for money and Grey, White, or Black machines whose sheer existance either make a game popular or bomb are all about the same on the probability scale

[QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]Also, to weigh in on the "consolization" debate, you've only mentioned one game thus far in the argument. The decisions of one misguided game developer do not govern the entire industry, and the term "consolization" has been around long before UT3. Oblivion was "Consolized," but all they tried to do was address the complaints they got about Morrowind. I don't recall Bethesda ever saying that they were simplifying the game to appeal to the console gamers.smokeydabear076

and the sales of games like Oblivion, Bioshock and R6Vegas, prove there are casual gamers on both sides so why single out the console?

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]Also, to weigh in on the "consolization" debate, you've only mentioned one game thus far in the argument. The decisions of one misguided game developer do not govern the entire industry, and the term "consolization" has been around long before UT3. Oblivion was "Consolized," but all they tried to do was address the complaints they got about Morrowind. I don't recall Bethesda ever saying that they were simplifying the game to appeal to the console gamers.smerlus

and the sales of games like Oblivion, Bioshock and R6Vegas, prove there are casual gamers on both sides so why single out the console?

On appealing to a much wider audience of casual gamers, Rein explains that Epic has, "simplified the game... in the last game, we had like seven game types... this time, we said instead of having 'onslaught' and 'assault' lets meld them together into this 'warfare' mode, let's just do the things that we do really well andmake them work on console.

How can you not see why I would blame the consoles for this? Simplifying a game to make it work on a console. If the consoles didn't exist this wouldn't be a reason for simplifying a game. They wouldn't need to simplify a game for a system that didn't exist.

Now if it would ease your mind, I'll just call it casualization. Problem solved.

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]Also, to weigh in on the "consolization" debate, you've only mentioned one game thus far in the argument. The decisions of one misguided game developer do not govern the entire industry, and the term "consolization" has been around long before UT3. Oblivion was "Consolized," but all they tried to do was address the complaints they got about Morrowind. I don't recall Bethesda ever saying that they were simplifying the game to appeal to the console gamers.smokeydabear076

and the sales of games like Oblivion, Bioshock and R6Vegas, prove there are casual gamers on both sides so why single out the console?

On appealing to a much wider audience of casual gamers, Rein explains that Epic has, "simplified the game... in the last game, we had like seven game types... this time, we said instead of having 'onslaught' and 'assault' lets meld them together into this 'warfare' mode, let's just do the things that we do really well andmake them work on console.

How can you not see why I would blame the consoles for this? Simplifying a game to make it work on a console. If the consoles didn't exist this wouldn't be a reason for simplifying a game. They wouldn't need to simplify a game for a system that didn't exist.

Now if it would ease your mind, I'll just call it casualization. Problem solved.

And PC gaming is dying because Cliffy B and Peter Molyneuax said so.

You can quote him all you want, make the font bigger and make every three letters orange. it doesn't mean a single thing. He made a bad design decision, and sales reflect this.

How about this fancy notion? Brace youself for it because this one is very hard to grasp.,,

blame the developer because he's the one that did it!

I play console games and he never once asked me "Hey smerlus, what do you think if I change all this crap in this game and make the game suck?" Hell I've never even seen a list in my entire 6 years on the site where someone said "you know one PC game i wish was on consoles? Unreal Tourney III" so he didn't have to do anything for consoles expecially make a game where hardly any people that play consoles picked up.

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]Also, to weigh in on the "consolization" debate, you've only mentioned one game thus far in the argument. The decisions of one misguided game developer do not govern the entire industry, and the term "consolization" has been around long before UT3. Oblivion was "Consolized," but all they tried to do was address the complaints they got about Morrowind. I don't recall Bethesda ever saying that they were simplifying the game to appeal to the console gamers.smerlus

and the sales of games like Oblivion, Bioshock and R6Vegas, prove there are casual gamers on both sides so why single out the console?

On appealing to a much wider audience of casual gamers, Rein explains that Epic has, "simplified the game... in the last game, we had like seven game types... this time, we said instead of having 'onslaught' and 'assault' lets meld them together into this 'warfare' mode, let's just do the things that we do really well andmake them work on console.

How can you not see why I would blame the consoles for this? Simplifying a game to make it work on a console. If the consoles didn't exist this wouldn't be a reason for simplifying a game. They wouldn't need to simplify a game for a system that didn't exist.

Now if it would ease your mind, I'll just call it casualization. Problem solved.

just so you know Valve also had to make some changes for Half Life 2 to work on consoles, same with Portal, TF 2 and both episodes. Those games must be consolized too. One of the most cherished names in PC gaming is consolized.

And PC gaming is dying because Cliffy B and Peter Molyneuax said so.

If you have a great PC game and decide to launch a console version of that game. Then you change that game alot during the port process and end up with a PC game that is different from its console version ie. less complex, that is going to any the original fans!

If you then bring out a sequel to the original PC game which you release on multiple platforms and the PC version was less complex than the original game, then the consoles will be the perceived root cause of the series going in an unpopular direction.

Not all console gamers are casual or novice gamers but the majority are. This is why games are dumbed down if the developers want to sell lots of their product. It's understandable that PC gamers are angered by this, and blame console gamers as a whole.

If you have a great PC game and decide to launch a console version of that game. Then you change that game alot during the port process and end up with a PC game that is different from its console version ie. less complex, that is going to any the original fans!

If you then bring out a sequel to the original PC game which you release on multiple platforms and the PC version was less complex than the original game, then the consoles will be the perceived root cause of the series going in an unpopular direction.

Not all console gamers are casual or novice gamers but the majority are. This is why games are dumbed down if the developers want to sell lots of their product. It's understandable that PC gamers are angered by this, and blame console gamers as a whole.

gamespotsnn1

I understand your point but the sales don't prove this. Sales prove that there are loads of casuals on each side waiting to buy simplified games and scorn bad games hence the reason I keep bringing up sales of Oblivion, Morrowind, R6Vegas and Bioshock. All of those games were shallower than the previous title, all sold well on PC and consoles so how is this the consoles' fault?

Eh, this is pointless.smokeydabear076

Yes it is. The developer you're quoting said something and it's 100% fact because you agree with it. The two developers that I quoted are lying because you don't agree with what they said.

Games that are changed and end up on PC and consoles are the consoles' fault unless they are made by Valve or something like that.

A game such as Big Rig's isn't just a piece of crap that no one buys, it was a good game that did bad because it was PCized

I think I got your logic now.

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]

Eh, this is pointless.smerlus

Yes it is. The developer you're quoting said something and it's 100% fact because you agree with it. The two developers that I quoted are lying because you don't agree with what they said.

Games that are changed and end up on PC and consoles are the consoles' fault unless they are made by Valve or something like that.

A game such as Big Rig's isn't just a piece of crap that no one buys, it was a good game that did bad because it was PCized

I think I got your logic now.

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

zerosaber456

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

[QUOTE="zerosaber456"]

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

smerlus

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]

Eh, this is pointless.smokeydabear076

Yes it is. The developer you're quoting said something and it's 100% fact because you agree with it. The two developers that I quoted are lying because you don't agree with what they said.

Games that are changed and end up on PC and consoles are the consoles' fault unless they are made by Valve or something like that.

A game such as Big Rig's isn't just a piece of crap that no one buys, it was a good game that did bad because it was PCized

I think I got your logic now.

Well either is Peter M, he's a company founder/lead designer...

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]

Eh, this is pointless.smerlus

Yes it is. The developer you're quoting said something and it's 100% fact because you agree with it. The two developers that I quoted are lying because you don't agree with what they said.

Games that are changed and end up on PC and consoles are the consoles' fault unless they are made by Valve or something like that.

A game such as Big Rig's isn't just a piece of crap that no one buys, it was a good game that did bad because it was PCized

I think I got your logic now.

Well either is Peter M, he's a company founder/lead designer...

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="zerosaber456"]

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

smokeydabear076

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

Yes just like Half Life 2 is a console game... now we agree on absurd sarcasm

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="zerosaber456"]

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

smerlus

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

Yes just like Half Life 2 is a console game... now we agree on absurd sarcasm

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="zerosaber456"]

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

smokeydabear076

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

Yes just like Half Life 2 is a console game... now we agree on absurd sarcasm

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

smerlus

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

smokeydabear076

not only that but Orange Box was heavily consolized

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

smerlus

not only that but Orange Box was heavily consolized

Half-life is a hyped up series! HL2 spent too long in development and other games came out that were just as impressive graphically.

The original game was never as good as Deus Ex.

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

smokeydabear076

not only that but Orange Box was heavily consolized

easy because both compilations were developed with the 360 and PC in mind and changes had to be made for it to work on console such as the control scheme. This is Mark Rein's reasons for UTIII and your definition for consolization.

But in reality, Valve is a great developer and made sure both games were great and highly optimized for each system (well except for the PS3 verions which was littered with bugs, therefore PCized)... The evil little boxes that are consoles didn't make Valve skimp out on game modes, they didn't have to change menus, they didn't have to limit the amount of characters in VS mode for BOTH PC and consoles...

How come Valve doesn't suffer from the symptoms of consolization? Could it be that devs have ultimate control all the while like I've been saying? Does this mean that consolization is just a fairy tale PC elitists like to tell each other to make them feel better about their Frankenstein Syndrome? I think so

Half-life is a hyped up series! HL2 spent too long in development and other games came out that were just as impressive graphically.

The original game was never as good as Deus Ex.

gamespotsnn1

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

and 50 cents game is good. are we complimenting each other on each other's lies now?

smerlus

not only that but Orange Box was heavily consolized

easy because both compilations were developed with the 360 and PC in mind and changes had to be made for it to work on console such as the control scheme. This is Mark Rein's reasons for UTIII and your definition for consolization.

But in reality, Valve is a great developer and made sure both games were great and highly optimized for each system (well except for the PS3 verions which was littered with bugs, therefore PCized)... The evil little boxes that are consoles didn't make Valve skimp out on game modes, they didn't have to change menus, they didn't have to limit the amount of characters in VS mode for BOTH PC and consoles...

How come Valve doesn't suffer from the symptoms of consolization? Could it be that devs have ultimate control all the while like I've been saying? Does this mean that consolization is just a fairy tale PC elitists like to tell each other to make them feel better about their Frankenstein Syndrome? I think so

SIMPLICITY! THe reason why Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were not as good compard to the predcessors was because it was simplified to be ont he consolezerosaber456

Or it could be that the company that made both games was in financial troubles, made 1/2 assed games in hopes to cash in on established titles and that idea blew up in their faces when both games failed miserably.

I know! What was I thinking???

Deus Ex 1 is in my top 3 games of all time.

Deus Ex 2 is the greatest entertainment letdown in my life. ever. period. Not even Universal Soldier 2 let me down that much.

Deus Ex 3 I have high hopes for, but low expectations. If its a PoS, well, at least I will be prepared. If its a good game, I will be pleasantly suprised and I will stop being an agnostic and start worshipping every damn divine Being out there.

SIMPLICITY! THe reason why Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were not as good compard to the predcessors was because it was simplified to be ont he consolezerosaber456

How was Thief: DS simplified on the PC? Don't say the loot glint - that is the miniscule addition brought to the game.

Btw, I don't consider Bioshock a port. Hehehe. :D

[QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="smerlus"]

ummm you have no facts. let's take a look at some games that were "dumbed down for consoles" shall we?

Bioshock: Sold well on PC and 360

R6 Vegas: Sold well on PC and 360

Oblivion: Sold Well on PC and 360

Deus Ex 2, sold poorly on PC and xbox.

Oh now I can see how correct you are in saying that PC elitists have much better tastes and higher standards of games.

smerlus

not taking a side either way, as far as I know R6 Vegas didn't really sell well on pc and morrowind on pc sold more than oblivion on pc

well the R6 series on PC has been on a steady decline and even after a buggy "consolized" game, it still managed to sell more than the previous entry in the series.

and once again, Morrowind sold well on consoles also. It was a platinum hit and also saw a GOTY edition.

so far there's no proof of consolization. Good games sell good across all systems, bad games sell bad.

i don't really know about vegas selling well on pc, in fact i am pretty surprised as this was one of the first game to have sm 3.0 cumpolsary.

anyways while what you sare saying is true about tes , from what i know oblvion sold much more on 360 than morrowind and for pc the case was opposite

Couldn't agree more!

Deus Ex 1 = Also in my top 3! Deus Ex 2 = Major dissapointment! Deus Ex 3 = High Hopes & Low expectations!

To be honest its probably looking a bit grim! You just know they'll go for the console option of putting as much explosions, effects and flashy lights on the screen as they can! The story and atmosphere will be lost somewhere in all that, or maybe they will forget about it all together!

[QUOTE="zerosaber456"]SIMPLICITY! THe reason why Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were not as good compard to the predcessors was because it was simplified to be ont he consolebiggest_loser

How was Thief: DS simplified on the PC? Don't say the loot glint - that is the miniscule addition brought to the game.

Btw, I don't consider Bioshock a port. Hehehe. :D

For one the environments are much smaller than those seen in Thief I and II, and I would like to finish this but I just realized I gotta get going.

[QUOTE="zerosaber456"]

How hard can it be to understand? I'll give some examples. Deus ex 1 entered the scene on the PC and was praised for strong gameplay, and story. Mostly because of what the PC can do. I have not heard about the PS2 port but I heard it was not as good.

Let's move on to flight sims on the PC. TIE Fighter, X-wing alliance, and Freespace 2. They were praised for the gameplay, controls, and storyline as well. Take those Flight sims on the PC and compare them to flight sims on the Consoles. Take X-wing alliance and compare it to Rogue Squadronon the consoles. Rogue Squadron can't do nearly half as much as X-wing alliance.

How does all this fit into Deus ex and thief? Deus ex 1 and Thief 1,2 on the PC had alot to offer because of what the PC could handle and it's controls. But becaused Deus ex 2 and thief 3 were also made for the console, the game had to get simplified so it wouldn't be a control nightmare for the consoles. And because the controls had to be simplified the PC has the get th short end of it.

smerlus

and both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 bombed on consoles... meaning they were crappy games.

Right now I'm going to put a pile of dog crap and put it in a PC... does this mean it's a crappy game because it's on PC or just a crappy game?

Thief 3 wasn't as well received as the previous 2, but it wasn't a crappy game. It was a very good game that didn't sell well. It suffered in comparison to the previous Thief games because they were so beloved. Deus Ex 2 wasn't a bad game, but mostly bombed on the PC because of the too-small zones, long loading times and compromises involving the inventory. Optimizing the game for the Xbox was the reason for most of these problems. FPS games on the PC are supposed to be fast paced, usually, and the frequent loads due to the small zones made that hard to accomplish. It probably didn't do too well on the Xbox because, Halo notwithstanding, FPS games weren't nearly as popular on the consoles as they were on PC's, especially on the last generation of consoles.

The high sales of Oblivion do not indicate that the game wasn't consolized, or that it wasn't worse than what it should have been due to the compromises made to bring it to the consoles. It sold well despite those things, not because of them. One of the largest complaints (next to scaled leveling) on the Bethesda boards was about the interface, it was clearly designed for the consoles. Eight hotkeys (for the 8 direction on the d-pad), almost no use of the wide range of keys on the keyboard, no default confirmation in any dialog boxes (all point and click for every single response instead of just hitting enter for yes like anyone else would have done), only a few items visible in your inventory at a time (large print so it could be seen from your couch while playing in the living room)... These are just a few of the things that PC players didn't like about the interface, things that were made for the consoles and not changed for the PC release. It took the modding community to change the interface (which was easily customized using .xml files) before it was even close to being PC-centric, and even those mods were kludges at best. So don't try to say the game didn't suffer because it was optimized for consoles, it clearly did. Just read the older messages on the Bethesda boards and you'll see what I'm talking about.

And as for Bioshock... Bioshock didn't have nearly as many interface compromises as some other games did to make it suitable for the consoles. Bioshock on the PC played like an FPS that had been made for the PC, not a port. It you want to call it a port, I'd say it's the perfect example of how a port should be done and should be referred to by all other developers in the future. Personally, I don't call it a port, I think it's more a case of parallel development instead. If I hadn't known it was on the 360 due to news coverage, I would never have guessed it to be a console game as well. So that's not a good example for you to use, I'm thinking.

I think it's pretty clear that there is such a thing as consolization. At least with the current generation of hardware, the problem isn't going to be as much in the gameplay since the current consoles are very powerful machines, but more in the control interfaces. A 360 or PS3 game ported to the PC isn't going to have to have any real graphics or level size compromises like the older consoles, at least given current console to PC power levels (they are close right now). Developers just have to learn to alter the HUD's and the controls to accommodate the keyboards and mice PC players use before releasing a PC version.