serial killer game anyone?

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lampolo

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#1 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts

Why hasen't anyone developed a game where you play as the serial killer? Im sure it would play out much like condemmed or a resident evil game in terms of gore...

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sindisssa

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#2 sindisssa
Member since 2009 • 25 Posts
sorry
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raven_squad

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#3 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts
Ummm... Because I guess most people don't find the prospect of murdering innocents repeatedly to be all that enjoyable I guess. People like to be the good guy. Stop the murderer. Not always, but mostly.
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Nephilim83

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#4 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........
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Swavo69420

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#5 Swavo69420
Member since 2006 • 808 Posts
I believe there's a Dexter game on the IPhone or there's going to be one... They should make one for PS3...
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lampolo

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#6 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts
Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........Nephilim83
if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl
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raven_squad

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#7 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts

[QUOTE="Nephilim83"]Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........lampolo
if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Its a choice. Not forced. And... as far as I know there isn't a Saw game yet. :|

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lampolo

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#8 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts
Ummm... Because I guess most people don't find the prospect of murdering innocents repeatedly to be all that enjoyable I guess. People like to be the good guy. Stop the murderer. Not always, but mostly. raven_squad
ok person with the vampire pic... as i said before..if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl
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lampolo

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#9 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts
[QUOTE="lampolo"][QUOTE="Nephilim83"]Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........raven_squad
if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Its a choice. Not forced.

its not a choice in god of war to kill innocents, also the saw trilogy is a perfect example of ppl enjoying sick horrible deaths, i consider that twisted....with the bad guy always winning
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raven_squad

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#10 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts
[QUOTE="lampolo"][QUOTE="raven_squad"][QUOTE="lampolo"] if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Its a choice. Not forced.

its not a choice in god of war to kill innocents, also the saw trilogy is a perfect example of ppl enjoying sick horrible deaths, i consider that twisted....with the bad guy always winning

I personally DO find the Saw movies to be a bit depraved myself. Its just torture. Same goes for Hostel. Anyways, I just gave my opinion. I'm not down with strictly playing as a serial killer. Doesn't really even sound fun.
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RotaryRX7

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#11 RotaryRX7
Member since 2003 • 7184 Posts
You can already do that in GTAIV. Plus, the game wouldn't be very exciting...think about it. A typical serial killers life is as follows... They do their "thing" and kill numerous people. Over time, they eventually get caught by the police. They go to court, and are most likely sentenced to life in prison or execution (depending on state). Then they spend the rest of their days in prison. So, that wouldn't be very fun sitting in a virtual prison cell with "bubba" the cell mate. :|
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Nephilim83

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#12 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
[QUOTE="Nephilim83"]Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........lampolo
if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Hey, dude, none of those games are about serial killers. And there is no Saw game. I have no problem slaughtering the innocent; I love GTA games. But there is a huge difference between killers and serial killers. Serial killers prey on a series of the same type of person each time. They are usually young women or even little girls. They kill the exact same way each time, too (Usually excrutiatingly gorey ways; hacking them to pieces and whatnot). This is what makes them SERIAL killers. And they are usually recluses and cowards who face no opposition until the day they are finally caught. So, basically, this game would be extremely repetitive and offer no challenge whatsoever. Not to mention only a pure pyscho would wanna play a game about killing woman and children. So as I said, a serial killer game is a terrible idea.
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AtticusFinch88

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#13 AtticusFinch88
Member since 2008 • 1388 Posts

I think Manhunt is the closest you're gonna get.

the reason a serial killer game hasn't been made should be pretty obvious...I'm all for it personally, I'm not sick I just believe games are about escapism and expression. Sometimes even art. but the society we live in, and the media would make a fuss about how everyone who plays it is going to go out and commit these crimes in real life. So these kind of games will more than likely NEVER exist.

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jfcundiff

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#14 jfcundiff
Member since 2007 • 6365 Posts
I think we should lock this thread. I have a feeling this thread could end up going to sick places.
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THQ88

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#15 THQ88
Member since 2008 • 1362 Posts

KONAMI is developing SAW movie based game. Hopefully it turns out as good as the movies.

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SOedipus

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#16 SOedipus
Member since 2006 • 15072 Posts

Umm, if Niko Bellic isn't a serial killer then who is?

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POPEYE1716

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#17 POPEYE1716
Member since 2003 • 4749 Posts

There is a Dexter game coming out, i would not mind playing a serial killer game Killing people who have done something bad.

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360hammer

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#18 360hammer
Member since 2009 • 2596 Posts

There is a Dexter game coming out, i would not mind playing a serial killer game Killing people who have done something bad.

POPEYE1716

That would make you a vigilante not a serial killer.

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Nephilim83

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#19 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
[QUOTE="360hammer"]

[QUOTE="POPEYE1716"]

There is a Dexter game coming out, i would not mind playing a serial killer game Killing people who have done something bad.

That would make you a vigilante not a serial killer.

That's kind of the point i was making earlier.
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AtticusFinch88

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#20 AtticusFinch88
Member since 2008 • 1388 Posts

[QUOTE="POPEYE1716"]

There is a Dexter game coming out, i would not mind playing a serial killer game Killing people who have done something bad.

360hammer

That would make you a vigilante not a serial killer.

this wouldn't really make you a vigilante. it would just be trying to justify your own crime. characters like Spider-man for example are vigilante's, a murderer is still a murderer

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Lord_of_Terrans

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#21 Lord_of_Terrans
Member since 2004 • 196 Posts

Why hasen't anyone developed a game where you play as the serial killer? Im sure it would play out much like condemmed or a resident evil game in terms of gore...

lampolo
Get Manhunt on PS2, Manhunt 1 not the second...
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POPEYE1716

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#22 POPEYE1716
Member since 2003 • 4749 Posts

yeah he kills people but justifys it by finding something wrong they did.

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Nephilim83

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#23 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
[QUOTE="AtticusFinch88"]

[QUOTE="360hammer"]

[QUOTE="POPEYE1716"]

There is a Dexter game coming out, i would not mind playing a serial killer game Killing people who have done something bad.

That would make you a vigilante not a serial killer.

this wouldn't really make you a vigilante. it would just be trying to justify your own crime. characters like Spider-man for example are vigilante's, a murderer is still a murderer

Yeah, but a murderer is not a serial killer. Making a game about a killer/murderer has been done hundreds of times already, but a serial killer? No. Serial Killers are sick and boring. Who wants to play as Jeffrey Dommer or Ted Bundy? They suck....
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5UPERMARIO

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#24 5UPERMARIO
Member since 2006 • 1204 Posts

The only true "play as a serial killer" game that I can think of is an old PC game called "Harvester".

Im not sure how or if it would run on todays cpus though.

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aijou_

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#25 aijou_
Member since 2006 • 334 Posts

Try manhunt 1 & 2. Where you play as a psycho serial killer. very interesting

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Thetaguru

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#26 Thetaguru
Member since 2006 • 1394 Posts

Well, if Japan has adate rape game, I'm sure they might have a serial killer game.

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Nephilim83

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#27 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts

Well, if Japan has adate rape game, I'm sure they might have a serial killer game.

Thetaguru
Most likely. They got pornographic gameshows on primetime, too. Those dudes are crazy.
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#28 stevencavagan
Member since 2008 • 391 Posts

personally I would love to play a dexter type game, love horrors, the saws and that and killing innocents on GTAIV doesnt really rank the same this as killing on Manhunt. I think if it was handled properly a vigilante or serial killer game could be done.

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SirOWNZalot86

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#29 SirOWNZalot86
Member since 2008 • 695 Posts

you play a murderer in indigo prophecy

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lampolo

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#30 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts

[QUOTE="lampolo"][QUOTE="Nephilim83"]Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........raven_squad

if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Its a choice. Not forced. And... as far as I know there isn't a Saw game yet. :|

the point is ppl are willing to experience murder though the killers perspective, not only willing but wanting to due to success of the saw franchise, and by the way ones coming out
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Nephilim83

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#31 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
[QUOTE="lampolo"][QUOTE="raven_squad"]

if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppllampolo
Its a choice. Not forced. And... as far as I know there isn't a Saw game yet. :|

the point is ppl are willing to experience murder though the killers perspective, not only willing but wanting to due to success of the saw franchise, and by the way ones coming out

Oh dear lord....
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lampolo

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#32 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts
[QUOTE="lampolo"][QUOTE="Nephilim83"]Probably because it'd take a twisted sould to play something like that. That being said, I'd love to play something like that! It could be like a freaky stealth version of GTA where you drive your windowless van to the end of the mall parking lot and sneak up on teenage girls...... Nevermind. That makes me sad. A serial killer game is a terrible idea.........Nephilim83
if any inkling of that were true then all the saw trilogy, god of war, and kotor game fans are"twisted" bec in all of the you either are or have the choice of killing innocent ppl

Hey, dude, none of those games are about serial killers. And there is no Saw game. I have no problem slaughtering the innocent; I love GTA games. But there is a huge difference between killers and serial killers. Serial killers prey on a series of the same type of person each time. They are usually young women or even little girls. They kill the exact same way each time, too (Usually excrutiatingly gorey ways; hacking them to pieces and whatnot). This is what makes them SERIAL killers. And they are usually recluses and cowards who face no opposition until the day they are finally caught. So, basically, this game would be extremely repetitive and offer no challenge whatsoever. Not to mention only a pure pyscho would wanna play a game about killing woman and children. So as I said, a serial killer game is a terrible idea.

first off the, I INTRODUCED SAW AS A EXAMPLE OF PPL WANTING TO WATCH SERIAL KILLERS AND VIEW THINGS FROM THIER PERSPECTIVE. second a saw game is in the making check qj.net. third, based off your little amount of imagination for such a game if it were made, explain to me how fighting games, or even shooters like halo 1 dont get repetitive even before there was an online component to the game???
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#33 daveversion1
Member since 2007 • 1005 Posts

Why hasen't anyone developed a game where you play as the serial killer? Im sure it would play out much like condemmed or a resident evil game in terms of gore...

lampolo
I think it would just be to risky, and also if anyone died and they had that kind of game the lawyers and stuff would blame that. Another thing is i think it would really be a bit unsuitable, i would'nt really want to play a serial killer, because i dont want to muder innocent random people, i dont think its appropriate. Plus, what story would you do about it?
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Sk8ter_213

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#34 Sk8ter_213
Member since 2003 • 4573 Posts
I'd play it, and my friend would love it if there was a serial killer game.
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QuebecSuperstar

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#35 QuebecSuperstar
Member since 2006 • 4178 Posts

There is a serial killer, Friday the 13th-ish game being developed called Campfire. It's been a long time since 'new news' have been announced but apparently, its release is scheduled for October 2009.

*Source*

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lampolo

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#36 lampolo
Member since 2004 • 37 Posts
[QUOTE="lampolo"]

Why hasen't anyone developed a game where you play as the serial killer? Im sure it would play out much like condemmed or a resident evil game in terms of gore...

daveversion1
I think it would just be to risky, and also if anyone died and they had that kind of game the lawyers and stuff would blame that. Another thing is i think it would really be a bit unsuitable, i would'nt really want to play a serial killer, because i dont want to muder innocent random people, i dont think its appropriate. Plus, what story would you do about it?

how about a serial killer stalking other mass murders and bad ppl
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Tikicobra

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#37 Tikicobra
Member since 2009 • 2058 Posts
That would be a horrible game. What fun is there in murdering innocents with no goal? It would be sick, controversial, and every time someone got killed, the game would be blamed for it.
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Nephilim83

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#38 Nephilim83
Member since 2008 • 4378 Posts
That would be a horrible game. What fun is there in murdering innocents with no goal? It would be sick, controversial, and every time someone got killed, the game would be blamed for it.Tikicobra
That's what I was trying to say. Serial killers have no motivation to kill but that they like to kill and want to be recognized for their nasty talents. A serial killer would be a crappy protagonist. Who wants to play as an ugly freak who got tortured in high school, poked dead animals with sticks, and peaked on his own mom while she was taking a poo only to grow up and start killing women on the toilet and writing his alter ego's name on the wall with their feces as his call sign? That's what Serial killers do. And for no real reason. A game needs a story, motivation, a conflict, and a goal. What's your game gonna be about? See who can hack up the most jane does before the clock runs up? See who can stack the most bodies in the back of their white windowless cargo van before the cops arrive? Give us a little insight into what it is you want here. How would this game work? What would you do?
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Tikicobra

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#39 Tikicobra
Member since 2009 • 2058 Posts
[QUOTE="Tikicobra"]That would be a horrible game. What fun is there in murdering innocents with no goal? It would be sick, controversial, and every time someone got killed, the game would be blamed for it.Nephilim83
That's what I was trying to say. Serial killers have no motivation to kill but that they like to kill and want to be recognized for their nasty talents. A serial killer would be a crappy protagonist. Who wants to play as an ugly freak who got tortured in high school, poked dead animals with sticks, and peaked on his own mom while she was taking a poo only to grow up and start killing women on the toilet and writing his alter ego's name on the wall with their feces as his call sign? That's what Serial killers do. And for no real reason. A game needs a story, motivation, a conflict, and a goal. What's your game gonna be about? See who can hack up the most jane does before the clock runs up? See who can stack the most bodies in the back of their white windowless cargo van before the cops arrive? Give us a little insight into what it is you want here. How would this game work? What would you do?

It also needs a protagonist who doesn't suck.
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TriangleHard

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#40 TriangleHard
Member since 2005 • 9097 Posts

because serial killer game would be a boring game.

Just imagine what you have to do. You need to lure someone into private area (or enter their private area), so you can kill without having witness. Stealth element that is based around 1 target... not a very fun idea.

Then you need to kill. Ok fun element, but sounds like short fun.

Then you need to clean up your own mess, to make sure you leave no finger prints and whatever. Which would make the game janitor simulator. Not a fun idea.

Then you have to start thinking about making your targets seems more random. Again not a fun idea just staring at NPC and waiting for right target and timing.

Detective games can be fun because you are keep going after the mystery. As long as mystery is there, then you have something you must uncover all the time. Something for you to do without waiting. Being on the other side, things change quite a bit.

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raven_squad

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#41 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts

you play a murderer in indigo prophecy

SirOWNZalot86
Well, not technically. He didn't do it, he was body hijacked. ;)
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dylan417

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#42 dylan417
Member since 2008 • 5195 Posts

Ummmm, How bout No? You creep. No offense but why in the hell do you want to chop up innocent people for kicks? You are sick, watching movies is okay but a simulation of it? But as to your question, why hasn't anyone made a game like that? Because of god damn ESRB. Im sorry about being so harsh but, thats just weird, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

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TriangleHard

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#43 TriangleHard
Member since 2005 • 9097 Posts

Ummmm, How bout No? You creep. No offense but why in the hell do you want to chop up innocent people for kicks? You are sick, watching movies is okay but a simulation of it? But as to your question, why hasn't anyone made a game like that? Because of god damn ESRB. Im sorry about being so harsh but, thats just weird, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

dylan417

So are people so harsh on TC?

Like you don't abuse innocents in Saint's Row 2. I bet just about anyone who played that game abused innocent bystanders all day long and had major kick out of it.

Same idea, but going into more details. Little bit more personal and darker tone.

People loved Bioshock, and some people probably loved doing mean things to little girls. How is this idea vastly different?

And Fable? Fallout 3? Gamers have been torturing innocent virtual citizens for a while now.

So why is TC's idea sick all of sudden?

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AtticusFinch88

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#44 AtticusFinch88
Member since 2008 • 1388 Posts

[QUOTE="dylan417"]

Ummmm, How bout No? You creep. No offense but why in the hell do you want to chop up innocent people for kicks? You are sick, watching movies is okay but a simulation of it? But as to your question, why hasn't anyone made a game like that? Because of god damn ESRB. Im sorry about being so harsh but, thats just weird, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

TriangleHard

So are people so harsh on TC?

Like you don't abuse innocents in Saint's Row 2. I bet just about anyone who played that game abused innocent bystanders all day long and had major kick out of it.

Same idea, but going into more details. Little bit more personal and darker tone.

People loved Bioshock, and some people probably loved doing mean things to little girls. How is this idea vastly different?

And Fable? Fallout 3? Gamers have been torturing innocent virtual citizens for a while now.

So why is TC's idea sick all of sudden?

good point. I don't see anything wrong with this stuff as long as it is kept in a game, movie or whatever. With Bioshock for example we gamers (most of us atleast) are aware that it's just a game, and know the difference between right and wrong regardless of what we choose to do in these games.

Even in the GTA games you can creep up behind anyone and slit their throat... you can do it as many times as you want just like a serial killer I suppose. These things have been going on in games for years. It only gets allowed because most games aren't based solelyaround these ideas (excluding games like manhunt).

No one would publish a game based entirely on being a serial killer anyway.I can see someone like Rockstar getting away with it, but imagine if GTA was called - "steal a car, stock up on guns and kill as many hookers as you want". I doubt it would have ever been released :P

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WR_Platinum

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#45 WR_Platinum
Member since 2003 • 4685 Posts

[QUOTE="dylan417"]

Ummmm, How bout No? You creep. No offense but why in the hell do you want to chop up innocent people for kicks? You are sick, watching movies is okay but a simulation of it? But as to your question, why hasn't anyone made a game like that? Because of god damn ESRB. Im sorry about being so harsh but, thats just weird, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

TriangleHard

So are people so harsh on TC?

Like you don't abuse innocents in Saint's Row 2. I bet just about anyone who played that game abused innocent bystanders all day long and had major kick out of it.

Same idea, but going into more details. Little bit more personal and darker tone.

People loved Bioshock, and some people probably loved doing mean things to little girls. How is this idea vastly different?

And Fable? Fallout 3? Gamers have been torturing innocent virtual citizens for a while now.

So why is TC's idea sick all of sudden?

Exactly right, very well said. I'm laughin here at how the majority are callin the OP "sick" when many of us have played games like GTA and Manhunt and any other game in existence that promotes extreme violence.

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raven_squad

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#46 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts

[QUOTE="TriangleHard"]

[QUOTE="dylan417"]

Ummmm, How bout No? You creep. No offense but why in the hell do you want to chop up innocent people for kicks? You are sick, watching movies is okay but a simulation of it? But as to your question, why hasn't anyone made a game like that? Because of god damn ESRB. Im sorry about being so harsh but, thats just weird, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

WR_Platinum

So are people so harsh on TC?

Like you don't abuse innocents in Saint's Row 2. I bet just about anyone who played that game abused innocent bystanders all day long and had major kick out of it.

Same idea, but going into more details. Little bit more personal and darker tone.

People loved Bioshock, and some people probably loved doing mean things to little girls. How is this idea vastly different?

And Fable? Fallout 3? Gamers have been torturing innocent virtual citizens for a while now.

So why is TC's idea sick all of sudden?

Exactly right, very well said. I'm laughin here at how the majority are callin the OP "sick" when many of us have played games like GTA and Manhunt and any other game in existence that promotes extreme violence.

I'm laughing at all the people who can't tell the difference between violence and depravity.
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JudgementEden

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#47 JudgementEden
Member since 2004 • 2832 Posts
[QUOTE="Tikicobra"]That would be a horrible game. What fun is there in murdering innocents with no goal? It would be sick, controversial, and every time someone got killed, the game would be blamed for it.Nephilim83
That's what I was trying to say. Serial killers have no motivation to kill but that they like to kill and want to be recognized for their nasty talents. A serial killer would be a crappy protagonist. Who wants to play as an ugly freak who got tortured in high school, poked dead animals with sticks, and peaked on his own mom while she was taking a poo only to grow up and start killing women on the toilet and writing his alter ego's name on the wall with their feces as his call sign? That's what Serial killers do. And for no real reason. A game needs a story, motivation, a conflict, and a goal. What's your game gonna be about? See who can hack up the most jane does before the clock runs up? See who can stack the most bodies in the back of their white windowless cargo van before the cops arrive? Give us a little insight into what it is you want here. How would this game work? What would you do?

I believe Jason Voorhees is a type of serial killer, and it would be pretty fun to play as him in a game. Way better than the typical serial killer thats being brought up here. Of course no one is going to make a game of the typical serial killer.
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#48 TriangleHard
Member since 2005 • 9097 Posts

I'm laughing at all the people who can't tell the difference between violence and depravity. raven_squad

I'd say running over a granny for few laughs is much more depraved than hatred caused by psychological disorder, often caused by childhood trauma, which is mostly common with serial killers.

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#49 Denji
Member since 2003 • 12757 Posts

Most of the games today are pretty much based on boundless slaughter. What's the point of being a "serial killer" when you can do that in a lot of games these days anyways? The only difference is, you're changing the title to create a "purpose".

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JudgementEden

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#50 JudgementEden
Member since 2004 • 2832 Posts
[QUOTE="WR_Platinum"]

[QUOTE="TriangleHard"]

So are people so harsh on TC?

Like you don't abuse innocents in Saint's Row 2. I bet just about anyone who played that game abused innocent bystanders all day long and had major kick out of it.

Same idea, but going into more details. Little bit more personal and darker tone.

People loved Bioshock, and some people probably loved doing mean things to little girls. How is this idea vastly different?

And Fable? Fallout 3? Gamers have been torturing innocent virtual citizens for a while now.

So why is TC's idea sick all of sudden?

raven_squad

Exactly right, very well said. I'm laughin here at how the majority are callin the OP "sick" when many of us have played games like GTA and Manhunt and any other game in existence that promotes extreme violence.

I'm laughing at all the people who can't tell the difference between violence and depravity.

In my opinion, there is no such thing really as depravity in video games. Most people need to get off their moral high horse and realize that they have done some pretty "depraved" things in games at times.