War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

@kathaariancode: Ah, see what you were trying to say.

@Maroxad I hear the new government you guys are getting might want to donate some more high tech weaponry to Ukraine. Thoughts on it? Some Atlantis it might be called?

China has often used other countries to act as proxies for the purpose of deniability. North Korea is one of them. If China wanted to send a bunch of weapons to Russia, but also have the ability to tell everyone they didn't, they'd just give them to North Korea who would give them to Russia.

So, you're not wrong, if that's what you're driving at.

@eoten: That too but generally speaking also.

Sweden has been supplying Ukraine for a while, if we speed up the arming, that is great.

Russia aint gonna stop at Ukraine, they will go after Poland and the Baltic states, after that, Sweden and Finland are very much on the line. Ukraine feeds us too. So for the sake of our country's well being, it would be best to help defend Ukraine, I would even support, Sweden flat out sending more volunteers. I was seriously considering volunteering myself.

Enthusiasm is through the roof.

For contrast -

When attempting to negotiate cease-fires, what is it you think Ukraine should ask for, that Russia might agree to that would end the conflict peacefully?

@eoten: That's tricky. Depends how's the morale, as things stand I'll say give nothing to Russia and try to get as much support from the west as possible.

Russia will give back all captured areas and pay massive war reparations. No compromise.

Which areas do you consider to have been captured? The people in the Donetsk region voted to declare independence from western Ukraine, and Crimea never fully belonged to them either. So are we talking about these areas too or just western Ukraine?

Because we can really trust those handling the voting in Donetsk now.

You did not use the vote there as if it were freely given did you?

Illegal fraudulent referendums. Donbas and Crimea are part of Ukraine under international law. If the people in those areas want to be Russians, they can always move there.

They voted on that a long time ago. Early May of 2014. Almost 90% voted in favor of independence.

So after Russia first invaded and Russian separatists had taken over in Donetsk. Tell me again why we should trust them?

@horgen: We can trust the referendums now as much as we could in 2014. It's all part of the Russian strategy to destabilise the region. As it was when they started financing the civil war in the east and sending Russian militias there.

I'm curious to why Eoten think we can trust them.

Why does it surprise you? The Donetsk region has always been pro Russia. They identify as Russian, and even speak Russian, as opposed to Ukrainian. So why are you surprised they voted for independence from Ukraine after the coup that overthrew who they elected to run the country?

For you people who constantly tout "democracy" you seem to think it should only matter when the vote goes your way. And when it doesn't, you constantly try to invalidate it with some conspiracy theory that someone was influencing people to make them pick the wrong choice. At which point does a country begin to weaponize that, and use it to establish a uniparty system, invalidating opposition whenever it opposes those in power?

So just for the record, you have consistently claimed that our 2020 election was not fair, yet you're sitting here declaring that the vote in Crimea was legitimate?

Vote yes or you're fucking dead. Unsurprisingly.

The vote was in Donetsk, you can't even get RECENT history right. East Ukraine voted to secede and form it's own country. Crimea still technically belonged to Russia and so it was taken by Russia and currently belongs to them. Donetsk is it's own independent region at this point that Ukraine has been in a civil war against for the past 8 years.

Irrelevant. You're sitting here saying that these regions, Donetsk and Crimea, have voted on it therefore it's settled. While at the same time you've been regurgitating the 'Big Lie' narrative over the last two years. All of the examples in Russia have been under duress while threats of violence that are implicit or explicit in nature.

lol

no

you didn't

You trust Russian elections over US ones?

@horgen: Because the MAGA cult is a parrot for Russian propaganda and a bunch of fascists wanna be traitors.

They consider that the Ukrainian government that went against their electoral promises of leading the country towards the west and succumbed to Putin's direct threats was unjustifiably kicked out. Just like the fascists leading Russia, that saw the fall of the puppet government as an affront to their imperial ambitions, MAGAs for some reason feel their pain. For some reason they consider that a country choosing being a democracy over being swallowed by a tyrant is a crime.

They trust that unrecognised referendums sponsored by Putin, a guy that kills and arrests political adversaries and journalists that contradict him, are legitimate. And they feel Russia's war crimes are legitimate. Like they feel that Russia breaking their signed promises to not interfere politically with Ukraine and respect and defend their territorial integrity is something they're entitled too.

Not surprising though. The "America first" movement were also Hitler apologists, it's just what they are. This happening during the Biden mandate is also a big reason for this brainwashing and betrayal of western values.

Conspiracy theories:

Occupied Ukraine holds Kremlin-staged vote on joining Russia - ABC News (go.com)

Russia begins illegal referendum to annex occupied parts of Ukraine : NPR

Debunk the above citation or concede.

He's defending Russia throughout the whole thread, and only because the extreme right media is. They are making it sounds like this issue is a both-sidesism when it's not. Russia is in the CLEAR wrong on this. While I'm sure we can nitpick some things Ukraine has done, it isn't even remotely in the same league. Nor the initial aggressors.

Russia and Far-Right Americans Find Common Ground With Ukraine War - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

His team/tribe said so, and so that's now what he thinks. No matter how wrong it is. Like with climate change or vaccines.

Example quality of weapons they are being issued with.

Holding people at gunpoint does not constitute a free and fair election.

And only free and fair elections count.

Have to be off your head to defend this shit.

Russia will soon have their excuse to use nukes. I see it happening. Imagine if one flew off course and detonated in China.

If Russia uses nukes it will basically be the end of Russia.

Doubt even China would be sucking them off anymore at that point.

Oh damn those voting conditions seem like a MAGA wet dream.

They have voted on it. That's how Democracy works isn't it? People vote on what they want and ideally the people in charge provide that? But then you have people like you, who think Democracy is only valid if it works in your favor, and when an election doesn't go your way, it's all some evil Russian scheme to thwart you. You've been saying that about US elections since 2016 in an attempt to discredit those results, only to learn that was all bullshit.

You clearly know ****-all about the history of Ukraine, or else you'd know the people in Donetsk who identify as Russian today, have identified as such for decades. For their entire lives. Even before the collapse of the USSR and that conflicts between the two groups in Ukraine are nothing new. What happened in 2014 wasn't some random, new, or unexpected event. It had been building for decades. So to sit there and act surprised when the group that identified as Russian voted on a referendum to be separate from the group that identifies as Ukrainian means you're completely clueless.

To anybody who has actually paid attention, it's neither surprising nor unexpected. To claim it was all just some Russian plot and without Russia Ukraine was going to be this cohesive, united people shows you have no idea what you are talking about. But obviously, you people only think the democratic process matters if it works in your favor and if it doesn't, it's all null and void.

If you're not done being schooled yet and want something more to read, go look up what was happening in east Ukraine from 2014 to 2022. Yes, Ukraine committed some atrocities. They are not innocent.

On of the first day of the war, Russia ignored all regions and went straight for Kyiv. The plan was to take Ukraine.

As in, Ukraine.

With the claim that it was all druggies and Nazis. And that they would be welcomed, and it would collapse within days.

This is a mess. Scrambling to get what they can.

Anyone with a brain cell can see that. And no one in their right fucking mind will call this legitimate.

The great irony here, good chance Zelinsky will outlast Putin.

With Zelensky banning all opposition political parties and all media except for state-controlled media, he's starting to look a lot like Putin.

Ignoring context.

Putin bans the opposite to keep the elite in power, and keep the old ways the right ways.

Zelensky bans it because they are currently in the fight for their life and the last thing you need in that situation is division when you're fighting a superpower like Russia. Who, in all likelihood would sponsor and manipulate elections sewing discord.

Common sense.

Assuming this shit show finally ends, Zelensky will be popular to the point he will most likely absolutely dominate elections assuming he even wants to continue after this. Dude looks like he's aged 10 years in 7 months.

2 weeks training.

There doesn't need to be any context. Dictators ban opposition parties for one reason and one reason only, to secure power. Every country who has ever had an election can make the claim that suspending elections and banning opposition parties is some kind of best interest for the country. There's ALWAYS an excuse, there's ALWAYS a justification for it. Zelensky's justifications are no different than China's. Or North Korea's.

Banned opposition is banned opposition. Democracy was banned in Ukraine.

For your argument to work, yes, we have to ignore it.

There is no excuse that justifies a dictatorship. And if you think opposition parties are suddenly going to be allowed some day, you don't quite understand how these things work. There's always going to be some perceived and portrayed threat to national security that will threaten the country if opposition parties are allowed to be present and run for elections. That's why only state-controlled media is allowed as well, why free press was banned too.

Tell me, how long have you known that Ukraine had banned all opposition parties and free press?

Context missing.

In times of emergency, drastic measures may be necessary to be taken. Whether it is COVID or being invaded. We call that Realpolitik.

Freedom of the press situation is the exact same as in most places in europe. Where Russian propaganda networks are banned. Hardly anything out of the norm.

I'm aware Ukraine has always had corruption problems.
None of that justifies this.

Definition of "free press" is "RT news". Which isn't press but propaganda. It's also blocked here and most of Europe. The entire purpose being disinformation and detriment not only Ukraine, but America and the rest of the West.

Context.

Not gonna go in a loop here, your argument is a bad argument. Purposefully closing one eye to ignore the context that, none of this shit will matter if Russia wins.

It's a very basic principle of survival without division. Which you're equating to the same thing as Russia, which is just dribble.

Finland shuts borders with Russia as conscription age men flee Putin order | Fox News

Drunken Russian Conscripts Show Disarray of Putin's Mobilization (newsweek.com)

Oof. What a shit show. This illegal war was a mistake for Putin. Not sure why anyone sane would defend him.

Yeah nothing he's describing justifies this illegal war and the war crimes committed during it. Not even remotely.

@zaryia: It's weird because he's bending over backwards to ignore context to make out Zelinsky is mini-Hitler.

While at the same time fictitiously trying to inject context to justify sham votes where soldiers come to your house with machine-guns.

Donno what this guy is about, but seems to be in another dimension.

@eoten: In a moment when Russia is occupying Ukraine and destroying the country, are you actually comparing the banning of pro Russian parties to the political landscape in Russia? 🤣 Damn your definitely special!

Let's imagine during WW2, an European country banning pro Nazi parties, that would equate them to Hitler? Ah, oh man... I can not take you seriously, it's impossible! You actually made me burst out laughing. Funny!

He's just parroting whatever he saw on Q-Anon reddit or whatever. I think even Tucker stopped this lunacy.

He basically the guy who ignores facts, uses the fact that others are european as an ad hominem, and even went on a tirade against Empiricism and evidence based policy making. He also doesnt read his own sources in the rare occations he actually posts one.

All in all, I think this demonstrates a terrible flaw in thinking. Principles can be great, but context is more important. Every political policy is a tool, not an endgoal to achieve the best results for your people. Running a country on principle, will get the country absolutely wrecked in the long term. Because there is no golden policy that works under every situation.