War in Ukraine. Did the West handle the post Cold War era badly?

Remember when Farmers were towing away Russian Tanks?

Now Fishermen are towing away Russian Drones

@Maroxad: He might be a troll, no? That's just too much insanity for one single person.

Either that or he took a deep dive in the kool-aid and at this point either scenario is possible.

Hahahahahahahahaha, this is one for the ages. Defending sham elections on Russian territorial imperialism at this point.

Who determines which opponents are opponents because they're Pro Russian? Do you really have a hard time seeing how easily that can be abused, and why every dictator who has ever existed has used those same excuses?

Hitler banned opposition parties on the premise that they were pro communist and therefor, a threat to national security to allow to run. So Zelensky banning opposition parties on the premise they are pro-Russian and therefor, a threat to national security is different because..........?

You either have a Democracy, or you don't. And you're currently arguing a case against them.

@eoten: Again, I honestly can't say if you are joking. It's kind of difficult to have a dialogue with someone who doesn't make any sense.

In 1933 Germany wasn't at war with anyone. Germany wasn't being invaded by anyone. So again, you make no sense. Ukraine is in fact at war with Russia, more precisely being attacked by them. To expect that a country and its institutions are to function normally while that country is at war and facing the risk of disappearing is just insanity. Either you're crazy or you're an absolutely unscrupulous, intelectually dishonest person, or hopefully a troll.

Just a clarification that surly was an innocent mistake on your part. Ukraine didn't banned all political opposition, like you've initially stated several times in your most recent insane... argumentation(?), in which you seem to make things up as you go. I have no idea why you do that. If you're not joking maybe seek professional help? I say this because talking with a compulsive liar is really a mindfuck... So let's get back to your questions of, who's to say that those parties are really pro Russia? Hum, I'm surprised someone so well informed doesn't have any clue about this. Have you ever heard of Viktor Medvedchuk? Putin just did trade him for 200 Ukrainian prisoners of war. Crazy right. What a coincidence! You can research about the other banned parties but Medvedchuk's is the only relevant one and it answers your doubts.

You do realize that Democracies have had a history of banning extremist parties right? It is called a militant democracy. These democracies will actively ban parties that act in bad faith to protect and preserve themselves. It is actually not all that infrequent here in europe.

Extremist? So that's it? Just label all dissenters and opposition as "extremists" and not give anyone who disagrees with you the ability to voice a concern or seek public approval through peaceful discourse? Hitler did that too. He labeled his opposition to be extremists as well. And just like you, the people believed it. And why wouldn't they? Media was banned from promoting any viewpoints or information from ever being published against it. And that's how democracies die. That's all it takes.

And you're defending it.

You either have a democracy, or you don't. You don't get to ban all opposition in politics and media while simultaneously claiming the people get a choice.

Tens of thousands of Russians are fleeing the country to avoid the draft. The draft itself is chaotic, with people over 35 being summoned, even angering the head of their state news RT enough to publicly denounce it. Protests in the streets. Russian forces abandoning positions so quickly they're leaving conscripts behind.

Love to see it.

@eoten: And after being corrected you keep lying about all political opposition being banned. 🤣

@eoten: Once again, they didn't ban all political opposition, just a few pro-russian parties. Parties which represent an existential threat to the nation, especially now that hte country is in what looks to be a Total War.

Why do you continue to lie even as you have been caught?

Your Reductio ad Hitlerum actually helps prove our case on why Democracies need to protect themselves. For democracies to die. All it takes is one bad faith actor. Not everyone acting within the rules of a democracy believe in the process. Some use it simply as a means to obtain power, whether that is Hitler, Victor Orban, Moraweicki, Donald Trump and more. One person has the power to ruin the entire process. And Democracies need to protect themselves against such individuals.

If 11 parties are banned (many of them incredibly small), so the actual process and every other political party can still function, so be it. Keep in mind, the country is facing an existential crisis. Which is why a better example of this would be medieval hungary.

Hungary, much England, had its own "Magna Carta". The King had v ery little power overall, which left power to individual states. Unfortunately it pretty much all ended because the people obsessed too much over "State Rights", so much so they nullified the black army which had previously protected them from the Ottoman armies that invaded previously, making militaries privately owned again and reducing the taxes they had to pay to this army. As a consequence the country could no longer afford to protect itself against the existential threat of the ottoman empire. And the Ottomans came back. In other words, the country fell over a tax cut, which in the end, resulted in that tax cut being null and void.

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices, to deal with greater threats.

And Finland is moving in to blocking access to Russian Refugees.

@Maroxad: I'm kind of conflicted about this.

1 - Although it's truth that Russians should fight for getting their freedom back and overthrow their government, these people are refugees fleeing their terrible government.

2 - Draining Russia of their young people and welcoming them might be a very potent weapon against Putin's regime.

3 - If the idea is that, by stopping them from exiting the country, this will build pressure inside Russia. I don't believe that will actually work. It might cause some friction initially but in the long run people forced to stay there will eventually be forced into submission and adapt to whatever they need to. As humans often do.

It takes a special kind of people to show the amount of courage and determination Ukrainians shown in 2014. I don't see that same spark in Russians. Generations and generations under oppressive regimes have basically neutered them.

They should accept Russian refugees. If they oppose the war they should be seen as allies. Also people escaping from a draft makes for a smaller army.

@eoten: What rubbish you talk. Hitler didn’t ban pro-communist parties, he banned all opposition parties. The Social Democratic Party, The German Nationalist party and all other political parties were declared illegal in 1933. Germany moved from a democracy to a one party dictatorship. That’s nothing like what happened when Ukraine banned pro Russian parties whose leaders have direct links to Putin.

Ukraine is still a democracy, and you can openly oppose Zelensky and campaign against him. What you can’t do is support a country that has killed and tortured thousands of Ukraine’s population.

Yeah I don't agree with that.

Good times in poor Russian areas.

Good vid. Surprised he hasn't been chucked in a cell yet tbh.

I think it is pretty much entirely bad. There is the stuff you mentioned but then there is also,

1. Russia has often relied on a Us vs Them Narrative. Finland blocking access to Russian Refugees feeds into that narrative.
2. Then of course there is freedom of movement to consider.
3. Long Termwise, incidents like this will cause a serious brain drain in Russia. While possibly inviting Talent to Finland.
4. Another long term goal is to plant the seeds of Nordic values. Many of these refugees will most likely return once Putin has lost the war. But their time in finland might plant the seeds of our values in a sizeable russian population*. Most Russians never travel abroad, and doing so might mean, they will adopt some of Finland's values. Which might reduce the risk for future conflict.

*Ruth Bader Ginsburg arguably got her view on women's rights, from her time in Sweden where she stayed for a legal research project.

@Maroxad: I agree, my second point was about that, there's more to gain from letting them in.

Yo eoten, do these democratic votes have to take place before or after the massacres and violence take place? You think they at least afford the victims the opportunity vote before they rape and murder them?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/world/europe/russia-ukraine-war-crimes-united-nations.html

This the reason why closing the Russian border is the right decision.

Seems like Dagestan is getting pretty agitated right now.

@Icarian: they are not going to protest. The punishment is way too big. They will find other ways to not be found or to avoid the draft.

Think of what you would do if you were REALLY in that situation. If you have kids and a wife. Old people to support. What are you going to do?

Yea, enthusiasm for war in the west seems to pay off.

@uninspiredcup: About a dozen of these so far along with 250k plus fleeing the country. They have a problem on their hands. And they are literally serving up their economic and national lifeline to the Ukrainians as cannon fodder. These recruits are walking into a meat grinder.

Would you instead prefer apathy?

0 days training. Not even a firing range.

Looks like soldiers are also supplying their own med packs and sleeping bags.

Thanks for sharing this Richard Garriott.

Know shouldn't laugh at this, but holy shit lol

At best that is what happens. Thanks for the laugh.

How about not provoking a nuclear power into action? Starting 30 years ago...

I know, i know, for the short term emotionals a long running affair is unfathomable.

Did you know that intelligence does psychological profiles of nation leaders?

When did the far right became a sanctuary for the coward?

Are you implying that the US caused Russia to invade Ukraine?

Interesting vid, goes into detail of getting out of Russia.

A country exists and is not subservient/part or ruzzia.

Dumbass tankie: "STOP PROVOKING RUSSIA!!!"

@palasta: i don't get this. This is obviously a continuation of the annexation of Crimea.

I don't think this is provoked. It's Russia retorting to military annexation after they lost political control of a country.

lost limbs could be considered "weight"

Always has been.

Like the dude's going out of his way to come across as a villain.

What do you people get? You don't even get the insults right.

It is the escalation of the russo-nato dispute going on for decades, it is the U.S. and their usual sheningans. Russia has made their dislike of continuous Nato expansion in the direction of their borders very clear. Despite ample warning, the U.S. had to push it, had to push it, had to push it and that's where the world is now. Who is blamed? Germany? Good one.

Why did Putin say the dissolution of the SU was a mistake? Because he obviously is missing the counterweight to stop U.S. imperialism and U.S. weaponry moving ever closer to russias borders.

How about ameritards getting up to date on recent events and recent history, instead of lingering on their obscured long gone irrelevant past.

after they lost political control of a country

Political control? What's that?

@palasta: That’s the argument that Putin uses to justify this war….and I just don’t get it. The countries that left the Eastern Bloc alliance chose to do that of their own free will. They chose to do that because Russia had oppressed those nations to the point of crushing revolutions with tanks in numerous countries.

If a country chooses to ally with the more Western way of thinking, that’s a clear signal that Russia’s way of thinking is not in line with the majority of the rest of the World.

Finland joining NATO is happening as a direct consequence of Putin’s war in Ukraine, and will result in NATO forces on the Russian border.

That’s no different from a free thinking democratic country like Ukraine saying that they want to join NATO to dissuade Russia from doing exactly what they’re doing now.

If the US created sham elections in the northern part of Mexico in order to annex it, the world would be equally as outraged.

I still think the west should have handled things differently when the wall collapsed but Putin invading Ukraine has made things worse for everybody involved.

Hates Nato >

Is part of Nato >

Makes everyone join Nato >

Does more damage to Russia than Nato ever actually did >

He's so great bros. You Americans just don't get it.

@palasta: Your entire post reads like Kremlin talking points. NATO expansion, blah blah blah....while ignoring that NATO membership has increase DUE to Russia's actions and encroachments on other nations. Seems like a fairly f*cking important part to leave out of the discussion.

Why don't you start asking the WHY portion first. Why has NATO grown, not decreased, over the last two decades?

Weird that countries bordering Russia want to be part of NATO isn't it? More so after Russia invaded Ukraine.

But the fascists supporting Putin do have a point. How can Russia invade countries and force them to be part of the Russian Federation if they willingly join NATO? That's really unfair!

> Ukraine resists Mariupol for months

> Russians give up in 2 days, get massacured as they flee, all the shit they looted scattered next to their smoking vehicals

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/01/ukraine-forces-encircle-thousands-of-russian-troops-in-key-city

Ukrainian forces perform victory dance after liberating eastern city of Lyman

Troops raise Ukrainian flag in city hours after Putin said area was Russia’s ‘for ever’, with Moscow admitting its forces have retreated