Biggest flop in system wars history?

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]LairClock_Ticking

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

1. TP wasnt hyped AAAA
2. Lair was hyped AAA
3. Lair is the biggest flop, followed by killzone, then TP

TP was hyped AAA.

tp was one of the first wii games i bought. it didnt exceed my expectations, but it was a good game. i feel the score gs gave deserved what it got. i was one of the few ppl who preferred windwaker over tp.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

What YOU think doesn't matter. The COMMUNITY expected AA, and a large number of cows expected AAA. It missed that by MILES. Hell, even the worst projections by Lair's biggest haters put it at 5.0-6.0. NO ONE expected 4.5. Not even me, and I've been saying that Lair would be crap since TGS 06.

Tamarind_Face

Please mention the names of these "large number of cows" please.:roll:

Were you shocked with lair's score? well I wasnt. The only thing that impressed me with lair was it graphics. Lair's floppage is just reality in our faces while TP's was unreal. I predicted its floppage but never expected it to happen. The flops that are huge are the ones that we remember because of the shock.

Go search for the official Lair thread, and ANY Lair thread before July. They are both full of AA hype from normal folks, and AAA hype from cows.

And no. Flops like the TP flop and the Metroid flop are momentary disturbances, at best. They have no effect at all on the game's performance elsewhere, and no influence at all, not even in System Wars. But with LAIR's flop, no one will buy it after looking at its score.

You really need to get your priorities in order, because if you think missing expectations by 0.1 of a point is more significant than missing expectations by 3.5 points, you've got some wonky reasoning. It's like saying, which is the bigger bomb? Star Wars Ep. 1, or Gigli. You're saying Star Wars, I'm saying Gigli.

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]Lairmjarantilla

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

Only the most extreme idiots ever hyped it AAAA. Just as many idiots hyped Lair AAA.

Put this in perspective: What was TP's lowest expected score? The most extreme haters probably said TP would score only in the A range.

Now, what was LAIR'S lowest expected score? Probably in the sub-A range, about 5.0 to 6.5. Lair plummeted BELOW that. How is TP a worse flop than this? TP barely missed AAA by 0.1. Lair missed its lowest projected score by two full points

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]

How is TP "the biggest flop in gaming history"? TP is only even a flop in SW. Everywhere else it's considered excellent. Lair, on the other hand, isn't only considered a flop in SW. It's gotten almost exclusively poor reviews.

But even then, stop me when I say something that isn't true:

1) Lair received considerable AAA GOTY hype

2) Lair received a score of 4.5/10

That = biggest SW flop ever. How do you argue against it? GOTY contenders aren't supposed to score 4.5/10, are they? The main reason for all the TP controversy was because Gamespot scored it lower than basically everyone else. But it still got a high score. Lair is just a flat-out tragedy.

Tamarind_Face

Who said Lair was a GOTY contender? it was hyped AA, have you ever seen a game which scored AA considered to be a GOTY contender. STop making stuff up.

You say TP floped only in SW but when I lurk on other forums, the number 8.8 is always mentioned even to this day. Will you see gamers speak about lair on other forums and remember it as like the date of their birthday.

And please some other site gave TP a lower score. The controversy is Gamespot was the only site that wasn't shrouded by hype and fanboyism.

Don't make me laugh. Before the infamous EGM review came out that ripped it apart, Lair was getting a bunch of GOTY AAA hype from cows. Of course they'd all like to forget this now. You're lucky the official hype for Lair is even AA, and the only reason it isn't AAA is because Casey made a sticky thread for it to officially determine what it is (and this was after the EGM review). Or else it would've been AAA, and he has said this himself.

TP was hyped AAA and fell .2 points short, and has received universally positive reviews from all over. Calling it a major flop and a bigger one than Lair because sheep on this forum were upset about that .2 doesn't make much sense. It was .2 away from the AAA they had predicted, and Gamespot's score was also one of the lower ones of all of the reviews, so that combination is what drove the controversy. Didn't really have much to do with the actual quality of the game.

Anyone on any other forum who considers TP a flop just isn't that smart, because attaching the word flop to that game outside of this forum is an act of stupidity. It's only a flop by the standards and rules of this forum, since it was hyped AAA here and fell just short, and we go strictly by Gamespot scores. And I don't think cows will be forgetting the flopping of Lair for a while. I'm sure they'd like to, but they won't. It'll always haunt them whenever they decide to hype a game.

Twilight princess, hyped AAAA.

2nd place metroid prime 3... Hyped Halo killer by sheep and will score higher than Bioshock.

3rd I think its killzone, maybe because of the media hype.

Tamarind_Face

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]Lairkage_53

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

Only the most extreme idiots ever hyped it AAAA. Just as many idiots hyped Lair AAA.

Put this in perspective: What was TP's lowest expected score? The most extreme haters probably said TP would score only in the A range.

Now, what was LAIR'S lowest expected score? Probably in the sub-A range, about 5.0 to 6.5. Lair plummeted BELOW that. How is TP a worse flop than this? TP barely missed AAA by 0.1. Lair missed its lowest projected score by two full points

i voted for lair since that game use to be praised like the 2nd coming of jesus from cows few months ago.other than

Besides Lair my vote goes to Fable. Fable wasnt what it was promised to be.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]Lairkage_53

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

Only the most extreme idiots ever hyped it AAAA. Just as many idiots hyped Lair AAA.

Put this in perspective: What was TP's lowest expected score? The most extreme haters probably said TP would score only in the A range.

Now, what was LAIR'S lowest expected score? Probably in the sub-A range, about 5.0 to 6.5. Lair plummeted BELOW that. How is TP a worse flop than this? TP barely missed AAA by 0.1. Lair missed its lowest projected score by two full points

No, the difference between those two games is immediate reaction. But the long term difference is much greater for Lair. TP's pace was not even slowed down by GS's review, and TP still got a GOTY nomination as expected. But Lair--former AAA, former killer app, former GOTY--could potentially bomb in sales and be discarded because of its reviews.

Hell, given how vocal the developers were about their own greatness and Lair's perfection, I'd also expect a public apology soon.

I'd have to go with Lair. It missed its hype by a LONG shot.

No one is going to care about Lair in two weeks. Twilight Princess flop will be talked about for years to come.

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]LairCaseyWegner

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

it's simple math. take the lowest score needed for the game not to flop and subtract from that the score it got. lair is the biggest flop of the generation and the 2nd biggest flop of all time right behind pn03.

what is "pn03"?

[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]LairDreams-Visions

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

it's simple math. take the lowest score needed for the game not to flop and subtract from that the score it got. lair is the biggest flop of the generation and the 2nd biggest flop of all time right behind pn03.

what is "pn03"?

A really pathetic GCN game with a cyborg lady that did dance moves to shoot energy bolts.

what is "pn03"?

Dreams-Visions

Daikatana is the biggest one in history.Ibacai

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

what is "pn03"?

Panzer_Zwei

the hell is that?

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"][QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

what is "pn03"?

Dreams-Visions

the hell is that?

http://www.gamespot.com/gamecube/action/pn03/index.html?tag=result;title;0

[QUOTE="Carmilla31"][QUOTE="NerdMan"]

It's obvious none of you were around when Daikatana came out. It's by far the biggest flop in history. It was hyped as a divine revolution in gaming godness for its like 5 year development.

...and it was a mammoth piece of crap. Scored a 4.6 I think.

NerdMan

Damn kids....All caught up in their new fandangled technologynessity. Can't remember the good old days.

Yeah dang whippersnappers*shakes cane*

I still remember wanting the game, thankfully I waited for the reviews. I just hope Duke Nukem Forever doesn't take the title away from it (I still have hope DNF will come out)

[QUOTE="Ibacai"]Daikatana is the biggest one in history.Dreams-Visions

Think of a game looooong in development, developed by one of the creators of Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and Quake, and advertised and hyped as his brainchild and "pet project" for its ENTIRE multi-year development cycle.

Now imagine that game flopping with a sub-A score and almost single-handedly ruining the career of the aforementioned Doom/Wolfenstein/Quake creator.

THAT is Daikatana.

It would be like Spore scoring like Lair.

You forgot Shenmue and the biggest of them all... KILLZONETargetDog

Killzone or Super Mario Sunshine.

Dude what isLair doing in that list? The hype completely died about two weeks ago and everyone started to forget about this game.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"][QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

what is "pn03"?

Dreams-Visions

the hell is that?

A very sub par game that is best let to be forgotten. It was part of the Capcom's big 4 or 3 or whatever for the GameCube.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"][QUOTE="Ibacai"]Daikatana is the biggest one in history.mjarantilla

Think of a game looooong in development, developed by one of the creators of Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and Quake, and advertised and hyped for its ENTIRE multi-year development cycle.

Now imagine that game flopping with a sub-A score and almost single-handedly ruining the career of the aforementioned Doom/Wolfenstein/Quake creator.

THAT is Daikatana.

yep...that's big. but we may look back at Lair as the reason why a whole dev house with a fairly decent legacy died.

Um Lair cost 25m and was hyped AA, it releases and scored a 4.5. The floppage is unmatched. And the massive budget and the way this game is ALSO going to flop saleswise makes it the uncontested rocky balboa of suckage. Yo Adrian!cipherr

And the big difference between those 2 games is impact. In TP you had sheep threating Jeff, a huge amount of constant whining and complaining that was well over 1200 posts, new accounts,posters being baned.Lair Review is expected since every website excluding Play Magazine who gave the game a 9 assuming the problems would befixed gave it a low score.TP was about AAA GOTY and you even had some AAAA hypage as well. Sure it was hyped AA but its impact is far less than TP impact. Man, the thread was over "2000" posts in the first 20-30 minutes, no other game has had the same impact.

Panzer_Zwei

Man that number looked like 1,200,000 when I got to it that night lol. But in all seriousness the biggest flop ever has got to be Daikatana. Now I know people will talk about impact and whatever. But impact has nothing to do with anything because all impact is, is a bunch of fanboys sheep and haters a like laughing, crying, and whining about given sitiuation.

Daikatana was an absolute disaster. On it own right Zelda TP is a good game but Daikatana actually was so bad that it closed down Ion Storm's Dallas office. The deving was an absolute disaster. Disgruntled employess quitting, the game was lagging behind visually by newer game engines, the dude even hired his playboy girlfriend as a level designer lol. The thing was like one huge soap operah spanning 1997 to 2000 with all the constant delays. The game was supposed to be done in 7 monthes. It took four freaking years lol.

"John Romero will make you his B!@CH!"

"Everything John Romero touches will turn to gold."

Ha what a joke. Not only is this the biggest flop in the history of Video Games it will go down as the biggest embarrassment and humiliation to any developer, EVER.

[QUOTE="Tamarind_Face"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

What YOU think doesn't matter. The COMMUNITY expected AA, and a large number of cows expected AAA. It missed that by MILES. Hell, even the worst projections by Lair's biggest haters put it at 5.0-6.0. NO ONE expected 4.5. Not even me, and I've been saying that Lair would be crap since TGS 06.

mjarantilla

Please mention the names of these "large number of cows" please.:roll:

Were you shocked with lair's score? well I wasnt. The only thing that impressed me with lair was it graphics. Lair's floppage is just reality in our faces while TP's was unreal. I predicted its floppage but never expected it to happen. The flops that are huge are the ones that we remember because of the shock.

Go search for the official Lair thread, and ANY Lair thread before July. They are both full of AA hype from normal folks, and AAA hype from cows.

And no. Flops like the TP flop and the Metroid flop are momentary disturbances, at best. They have no effect at all on the game's performance elsewhere, and no influence at all, not even in System Wars. But with LAIR's flop, no one will buy it after looking at its score.

You really need to get your priorities in order, because if you think missing expectations by 0.1 of a point is more significant than missing expectations by 3.5 points, you've got some wonky reasoning. It's like saying, which is the bigger bomb? Star Wars Ep. 1, or Gigli. You're saying Star Wars, I'm saying Gigli.

So with your logic of measuring expectation, Doom 3 isnt a huge floppage and shouldnt be remembered or considered a legendary happening in Gamespot cause it just missed .4 to get the expected hype. Oh please... Stop changing the rules.

No, the difference between those two games is immediate reaction. But the long term difference is much greater for Lair. TP's pace was not even slowed down by GS's review, and TP still got a GOTY nomination as expected. But Lair--former AAA, former killer app, former GOTY--could potentially bomb in sales and be discarded because of its reviews.

Hell, given how vocal the developers were about their own greatness and Lair's perfection, I'd also expect a public apology soon.

mjarantilla

True, Factor 5 has some explaining to do. Specifically, I'd like them to explain two things:

1) why in the world they never did anything with the controls even though there's direct evidence that they knew it could be an issue even a year ago, much less in the months following

and

2) why they ever came out and stupidly said that Lair can only be done on the PS3, which only served to put even more pressure on them and to portray them as having typical Sony-like arrogance

[QUOTE="kage_53"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]Lairmjarantilla

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

Only the most extreme idiots ever hyped it AAAA. Just as many idiots hyped Lair AAA.

Put this in perspective: What was TP's lowest expected score? The most extreme haters probably said TP would score only in the A range.

Now, what was LAIR'S lowest expected score? Probably in the sub-A range, about 5.0 to 6.5. Lair plummeted BELOW that. How is TP a worse flop than this? TP barely missed AAA by 0.1. Lair missed its lowest projected score by two full points

No, the difference between those two games is immediate reaction. But the long term difference is much greater for Lair. TP's pace was not even slowed down by GS's review, and TP still got a GOTY nomination as expected. But Lair--former AAA, former killer app, former GOTY--could potentially bomb in sales and be discarded.

For me it has to be Lair :( I was really looking foward to this game this looked like a kick-ass game but In floped so bad.

but thats just for me personaly if anything TP was the BIGGEST flop here in SW I mean that game was hyped 10, GOTYbetter the OoT(you name it) and it got a big 8.5 slaped inthere face

Man that number looked like 1,200,000 when I got to it that night lol. But in all seriousness the biggest flop ever has got to be Daikatana. Now I know people will talk about impact and whatever. But impact has nothing to do with anything because all impact is, is a bunch of fanboys sheep and haters a like laughing, crying, and whining about given sitiuation.

Daikatana was an absolute disaster. On it own right Zelda TP is a good game but Daikatana actually was so bad that it closed down Ion Storm's Dallas office. The deving was an absolute disaster. Disgruntled employess quitting, the game was lagging behind visually by newer game engines, the dude even hired his playboy girlfriend as a level designer lol. The thing was like one huge soap operah spanning 1997 to 2000 with all the constant delays. The game was supposed to be done in 7 monthes. It took four freaking years lol.

"John Romero will make you his B!@CH!"

"Everything John Romero touches will turn to gold."

Ha what a joke. Not only is this the biggest flop in the history of Video Games it will go down as the biggest embarrassment and humiliation to any developer, EVER.

Blackbond

I have to go with Zelda TP/Metroid Prime 3 for me. It's a matter of expectation and thepurpose of floppingreally for me.

Imean, everyone except PS3 fanboys expected Lair to flop and pretty much everyone but 360 fanboys expected Blue Dragon to flopbut who actually expected MP3 or even Zelda: TP to flop? Pretty much no one. Everyone pretty much was ready to accept it and go on with their lives. Wii gamers were pretty much ready to bust out the streamers while the opposing fanboys were ready to say "well just wait until X Game" and just leave it at that. Then Gamespot comes out of nowhere with AA review and it's like everyone was caught with their pants down. A nice little, almost non existent, calm before the storm and then chaos.

Then there's thepurpose of floppingfor me toconsider. One of the main purposes of the concept of flopping is to own those that were wrong about the hype of a game. Well if pretty much everyone expected Zelda TP/MP3 to meet its hype and everyone was wrong, then ideally the maximum amount of people got owned in this scenario.

But that's just my way of looking at things. I only find joy in everyone getting thrown completely off their guard and then the chaos that follows ^,^. People laughing and celebrating over the underperformance of games like Lair and Blue Dragon just seems rather pointless to me. But that's just me I guess.

No one is going to care about Lair in two weeks. Twilight Princess flop will be talked about for years to come.

theburg

Twilight Princess, in terms of impact.

Also, Super Mario Sunshine, Majora's Mask, Fable and Killzone deserve "honorable" mention.

What about red steel, it was hyped AAA and it got 5.5 thats a difference of 3.5. Lair was hyped AA and got 4.5 thats also a difference of 3.5. I think they tie.

Twilight Princess was supposed to be the second coming of christ.

Blue Dragon was supposed to be a Final Fantasy killer.

Don't know what people expected/wanted out of Lair? Dragon sex?

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Tamarind_Face"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

What YOU think doesn't matter. The COMMUNITY expected AA, and a large number of cows expected AAA. It missed that by MILES. Hell, even the worst projections by Lair's biggest haters put it at 5.0-6.0. NO ONE expected 4.5. Not even me, and I've been saying that Lair would be crap since TGS 06.

Tamarind_Face

Please mention the names of these "large number of cows" please.:roll:

Were you shocked with lair's score? well I wasnt. The only thing that impressed me with lair was it graphics. Lair's floppage is just reality in our faces while TP's was unreal. I predicted its floppage but never expected it to happen. The flops that are huge are the ones that we remember because of the shock.

Go search for the official Lair thread, and ANY Lair thread before July. They are both full of AA hype from normal folks, and AAA hype from cows.

And no. Flops like the TP flop and the Metroid flop are momentary disturbances, at best. They have no effect at all on the game's performance elsewhere, and no influence at all, not even in System Wars. But with LAIR's flop, no one will buy it after looking at its score.

You really need to get your priorities in order, because if you think missing expectations by 0.1 of a point is more significant than missing expectations by 3.5 points, you've got some wonky reasoning. It's like saying, which is the bigger bomb? Star Wars Ep. 1, or Gigli. You're saying Star Wars, I'm saying Gigli.

So with your logic of measuring expectation, Doom 3 isnt a huge floppage and shouldnt be remembered or considered a legendary happening in Gamespot cause it just missed .4 to get the expected hype. Oh please... Stop changing the rules.

500,000 copies in Japan is terrible. What are you thinking? 500,000 copies is the minimum a game like Dirge of Cerberus needs to break even. The only time when selling 500,000 was good was during the days of the NES and SNES when games were much less popular.

And you just proved my point. Dirge of Cerberus' poor sales were a direct result of its bad scores. If it had been AAA in Famitsu, it would've sold MILLIONS just in Japan.

Daikatana. The whole," Everything John Romero touches turns to gore andgold" thing, and of course, the now infamous PC Gamer ad:

It was supposed to be the next Quake. And it turned out...

What about red steel, it was hyped AAA and it got 5.5 thats a difference of 3.5. Lair was hyped AA and got 4.5 thats also a difference of 3.5. I think they tie.

MGS9150

They're just gonna ignore your post because lair is the new fad right now.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="kage_53"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Episode_Eve"]

[QUOTE="mmogoon"]Lairkage_53

How the hell is Lair the biggest flop? It was only hyped AA. Not that big of a deal. At least not compared to Twilight Princess.

Also Fable was hyped to be AAA and one of the best RPG's of all time (not sure if many Lems said that though). Jade Empire was hyped AAA andI remembermajority of Lems claiming it would bebetter than Kotor.

I say Twilight princess. It was hyped AAAA and got AA.

Only the most extreme idiots ever hyped it AAAA. Just as many idiots hyped Lair AAA.

Put this in perspective: What was TP's lowest expected score? The most extreme haters probably said TP would score only in the A range.

Now, what was LAIR'S lowest expected score? Probably in the sub-A range, about 5.0 to 6.5. Lair plummeted BELOW that. How is TP a worse flop than this? TP barely missed AAA by 0.1. Lair missed its lowest projected score by two full points

No, the difference between those two games is immediate reaction. But the long term difference is much greater for Lair. TP's pace was not even slowed down by GS's review, and TP still got a GOTY nomination as expected. But Lair--former AAA, former killer app, former GOTY--could potentially bomb in sales and be discarded.

Doesn't matter. Immediate reactions are always dampened out over time, but while Lair will always be a sinkhole of crap that was once expected to be a killer app and a definitive example of the PS3's power, while Zelda will always be the greatest launch game of this generation that just barely missed its mark.

It's a matter of differences here. Like I said, it's like saying the Star Wars Prequels (Twilight Princess) are a bigger flop than Gigli or Catwoman.