Bioware Says: Japanese RPG Developers Have Become 'Complacent'

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Vandal says: Bioware has abandoned what it means to make a good RPG game and has degraded the genre into an action oriented casual mess. nhh18

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Vandal says: Bioware has abandoned what it means to make a good RPG game and has degraded the genre into an action oriented casual mess. nhh18

Bioware is the American SqaureEnix.

wintermute0

[QUOTE="wintermute0"] They aren'tedo-tensei

I mean, in a sense. Bioware, to me, repersents WRPGs and SquareEnix now repersents JRPGS. They are also starting to release games that are lacking quality, AND they both only know how to make one type of game.

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Bioware is the American SqaureEnix.

AfterBurnerZ

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

wintermute0

When you say something is American, you imply that it is from the United States of America. Bioware is a Canadian company.

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

wintermute0

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="wintermute0"]

I mean, in a sense. Bioware, to me, repersents WRPGs and SquareEnix now repersents JRPGS. They are also starting to release games that are lacking quality, AND they both only know how to make one type of game.

[QUOTE="AfterBurnerZ"]

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Bioware is the American SqaureEnix.

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

Sky-

When you say something is American, you imply that it is from the United States of America. Bioware is a Canadian company.

Oh, well... could have fooled me.

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"]Bioware is a Canadian company. :|

edo-tensei

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

I mean, I've played Neverwinter Nights; I think I've had my fill of Bioware and their endless reskins of it.

going way back on this one.

I don't think JRPGs need to change to compete, I just think they need to do more to distinguish themselves. The genre is saturated.

Also, I'm surprised at the amount of Bioware hate in this thread. As if having 3 out of the top 5 rated RPGs of all time to their credit is a bad thing.

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

Sky-

When you say something is American, you imply that it is from the United States of America. Bioware is a Canadian company.

>Implying America is a country not a continent.

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Huh? Last time I checked, Canada is America.

I mean, I've played Neverwinter Nights; I think I've had my fill of Bioware and their endless reskins of it.

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] What? How are bioware games of today lacking quality? Pleasew do explain.edo-tensei

I mean, I've played Neverwinter Nights; I think I've had my fill of Bioware and their endless reskins of it.

I didn't say they were facts. You know what they say about assumptions?

[QUOTE="LookAnDrolL"][QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Human-after-all

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="wintermute0"]

I mean, I've played Neverwinter Nights; I think I've had my fill of Bioware and their endless reskins of it.

I didn't say they were facts. You know what they say about assumptions?

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] Yeah their games share inspirations of past games. What's the problem with that? I guess SF4 from capcom should have scored like crap, or nintendo's twilight princess, or the endless versions of symphony of the night that konami produces. The fact is though, none of those games are bad games, in fact they are awesome. Just because you no longer like their type of games doesn't mean they are of lesser quality in the overall picture. Don't pass opinions as fact please. Every developer has their own philosophy when it comes to game making, and you're just no longer into bioware.edo-tensei

I didn't say they were facts. You know what they say about assumptions?

Yeah. I said they sucked, and they can only make one game over and over again. Your point?

When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Stevo_the_gamer

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

Demon's Souls (2009)

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="wintermute0"]

I didn't say they were facts. You know what they say about assumptions?

Yeah. I said they sucked, and they can only make one game over and over again. Your point?

Silliness, pure and simple.

It would be different if he were saying that JRPGs just haven't blown EVERYTHING else away in terms of polish and production value, as they have in the past, but to go to a core pillar like design & structure is absurd because it gets me thinking, and when I get to doing that I start pondering what changes to structure and design W-RPGs have brought this generation, and it becomes clear they draw the big null. The design and structure of Fallout 3 and Oblivion is soooo much different than Morrowind and Daggerfall, right? Bethesda put out a game at the beginning of this generation that drew in more casual players than usual for an WRPG owing to an intense battle system, and because of that MS and EA have been willing to give Bioware the big bucks, allowing them to make prettier games with more and better V\O work, but in terms of structure, I don't see it at all. Oh, wait now I get it, Paragon and Renegade are sooo much different from Light Side and Dark Side or Low Path and High Path. Sounds like someone has been sitting on too many developer panels, and he got himself a bit of a big head. W-RPGs have made their games more action-like, hidden more and more of their rule sets, and their surprised their drawing bigger crowds? I have truly loved Bioware's output this generation, but this is nonsense.

Yes, there are 5 outstanding WRPGs this generation. Here are 25 great JRPGs:

Tales of Vesperia, The World Ends With You, Eternal Sonata, Lost Odyssey, Mario & Luigi 2, Mario & Luigi 3, Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor, Valkyria Chronicles, Persona 3, Persona 4,Rogue Galaxy,Odin Sphere,Dragon Quest 9, Etrian Odyssey II, Tales of Eternia, Valkyria Chronicles 2, Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep, Demon's Souls, Monster Hunter Tri, Rune Factory Frontier, Pokemon (series), Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions, Jeanne D' Arc, Disgaea 3, ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat

If it seems like a lot of those are handheld titles, umm....where do you think JRPG makers have been doing their work?

Seiki_sands

Recently it seems that Bioware have been on the offensive as far as criticizing Japanese developers, Square-Enix, or simply Final Fantasy...

And so the pot called the kettle black.

WAIW

I have to agree. Bioware have been doing pretty much the same thing over and over again. They make slight changes but I'm tired of their formula. Plus it's not like there hasn't been any innovation at all in JRPGs over the years. Ironically, Demon's Souls is the game I found to be something quite different.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Seiki_sands

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

[QUOTE="wintermute0"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] Well you yourself provided the answer.edo-tensei

Are you high?

Last time I cheked, statement doesn't equal fact.

You don't have to add "THIS IS AN OPINION" on everything to make it an opinion.

Okay, well that's just flat out wrong.

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Stevo_the_gamer

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="wintermute0"]

Are you high?

wintermute0

Last time I cheked, statement doesn't equal fact.

You don't have to add "THIS IS AN OPINION" on everything to make it an opinion.

That's....my point. You're the one passing your opinion as a fact. Practice ehat you preach. You could have easely just said you no longer have any interest in bioware games without trying to degrade them.

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Stevo_the_gamer

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

While JRPG developers certainly don't develop the same thing over and over again, with the advent of FFXIII it became very clear that they wanted them to.

"No towns!?"

"Shops at save points?"

"NPCs you don't press x to talk to?"

"A battle system where you don't control all 3 party members directly?"

Most of the complaining about FFXIII prior to release was about how the game was different from predecessors, even in the most minor ways. While the game turned out to have some real flaws, most JRPG fans act like a game can't be a good game if it doesn't have world map.

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Stevo_the_gamer

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

Japanese developers are having trouble coping with this gen.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )Episode_Eve

While JRPG developers certainly don't develop the same thing over and over again, with the advent of FFXIII it became very clear that they wanted them to.

"No towns!?"

"Shops at save points?"

"NPCs you don't press x to talk to?"

"A battle system where you don't control all 3 party members directly?"

Most of the complaining about FFXIII prior to release was about how the game was different from predecessors, even in the most minor ways. While the game turned out to have some real flaws, most JRPG fans act like a game can't be a good game if it doesn't have world map.

hakanakumono

To be fair,Persona 4 is PS2:DArach666

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"][QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]Those are all DS games. :P

DarkLink77

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]When was the last time a JRPG scored AAA?Stevo_the_gamer

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )

I noticed you edited out Demon's Souls, and I know you already discussed it, but Demon's Souls is not just a JRPG in name only. As someone else noted, Wizardry is very much an important root for JRPGs and From Software has from time to time made games that stay true to the dungeon crawler aspect of that root, most obviously the King's Field series. There are actually dozens of Japanese dungeon crawlers that have a similar aesthetic, including a number of releases in the Wizardry series itself.

As for the majority of JRPGs being DS games, yes they are, and as Bioware knows from 1st person experience, competing with JRPG makers on their turf is a little different. What did Bioware's Sonic Chronicles: Dark Brotherhood score on the DS? Mid-6's, wasn't it?

While JRPG developers certainly don't develop the same thing over and over again, with the advent of FFXIII it became very clear that they wanted them to.

"No towns!?"

"Shops at save points?"

"NPCs you don't press x to talk to?"

"A battle system where you don't control all 3 party members directly?"

Most of the complaining about FFXIII prior to release was about how the game was different from predecessors, even in the most minor ways. While the game turned out to have some real flaws, most JRPG fans act like a game can't be a good game if it doesn't have world map.

hakanakumono

I agree, I was also thinking about that, however I think it would be better if they tried new ideas with new IPs. That way the fanbase can't QQ about anything.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]

[QUOTE="Seiki_sands"]

At Gamespot? 6 in the last two years, which would be 2 more than WRPGs over the same period

Mario & Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story (2009)

The World Ends with You (2008 )

Persona 4 (2008 )

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (2009)

Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (2008 )Seiki_sands

I noticed you edited out Demon's Souls, and I know you already discussed it, but Demon's Souls is not just a JRPG in name only. As someone else noted, Wizardry is very much an important root for JRPGs and From Software has from time to time made games that stay true to the 1st person dungeon crawler aspect of that root, most obviously the King's Field series. There are actually dozens of Japanese 1st person dungeon crawlers, including a number of releases in the Wizardry series itself.

As for the majority of JRPGs being DS games, yes they are, and as Bioware knows from 1st person experience, competing with JRPG makers on their turf is a little different. What did Bioware's Sonic Chronicles: Dark Brotherhood score on the DS? Mid-6's, wasn't it?

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"][QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]Those are all DS games. :P

DarkLink77

A game not receiving a AAA score from GS doesn't negate it's quality though.Also, note that there is a reason a high number of Japanese devs are focusing time and resources into handhelds. So, knowing that, it would seem natural that we'd see less Japanese developed RPGs on consoles.

[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"][QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]Those are all DS games. :P

DarkLink77

How many quality JRPGs have there seriously been on consoles this gen? What, like 5?

I believe FFXIII and RoF scored pretty close. 8.5s if I'm not mistaken ...

I noticed you edited out Demon's Souls, and I know you already discussed it, but Demon's Souls is not just a JRPG in name only. As someone else noted, Wizardry is very much an important root for JRPGs and From Software has from time to time made games that stay true to the 1st person dungeon crawler aspect of that root, most obviously the King's Field series. There are actually dozens of Japanese 1st person dungeon crawlers, including a number of releases in the Wizardry series itself.

As for the majority of JRPGs being DS games, yes they are, and as Bioware knows from 1st person experience, competing with JRPG makers on their turf is a little different. What did Bioware's Sonic Chronicles: Dark Brotherhood score on the DS? Mid-6's, wasn't it?

Seiki_sands

jrpgs devs have mostlynstayed away from the consoles for some reason... Im guessing its because more attention is given to console games over handheld games in the press, and therefor not as much discussion exists concerning jrpgs being stagnant. just a theory.

I don't believe that Demon's Souls is a JRPG.

I don't believe that Demon's Souls is a JRPG.

hakanakumono

I don't believe that Demon's Souls is a JRPG.

hakanakumono

Is King's Field a JRPG, because the developers consider it a spiritual successor to that series?

Is Shiren the Wanderer or other Roguelike games like Torneko, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon or the Chocobo series?