Cliffy B defends X1 used games policy

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X_CAPCOM_X

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#151 X_CAPCOM_X
Member since 2004 • 9625 Posts

[QUOTE="X_CAPCOM_X"]

[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]The purge cost 3 million to make. Made 36 million at the box office. See? Low cost...more room for net profit. The video game industry is insane spending million and millions when they can't possibly expect more than a sale of a million copies or less. Bread_or_Decide



And publishers are blaming us for their miscalculation. They are responsible for their actions. If they want to spend 100 million on a game, they should not enforce DRM policies in an attempt to bend the market for a profit. They should just take it to the chin and learn to make more budget conscious games.

One thing I can give to the COD developers is that they never overstep their financial bounds, which has earned them enormous profits. Sure, the games are a step behind graphically, but they aren't making any big sacrifices. This also goes for PC gaming; people like to talk about how PCs are so much stronger than consoles, but making a game that supports their hardware is just too expensive, and the most popular games end up being the ones that focus less on graphics and more on the game itself, like Starcraft II, Minecraft, XCOM, etc.

Consumers don't care as much about graphics as developers think. We want graphical competence in our games yes but we don't need the sun the moon and the stars. Even games as amazing as Bioshock Infinite could have been cheaper. The skyhook and story didn't need all those graphics attached to be impressive. Heck, I didn't ask them to license all that music, which must have cost a fortune. There is always a better way to do the same thing. Gosh this whole thing really upsets me.



Yes, especially knowing that they're blaming gamers for their mistakes. 'AAA gaming' is a cancer on the gaming industry and needs to die.

http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good--256227.phtml

"If so-called "AAA" games and the used market actually are incompatible, then I say that's a good friggin' thing. Anything to dispossesses publishers of the notion that they need to keep dumping truckloads of cash into games to the point where they need to sell more copies than the laws of reality allow. Despite what demagogues and mouthpieces will tell you, the market is not demanding all its games be so expensive to produce. As I've said before, the PlayStation, PlayStation 2, and Wii would not have dominated their respective generations if the market put graphics over everything else. People want good games, not these overproduced, pompous, unsustainable exercises in wanton overspending. 

It's not our fault games have gotten so expensive, and I resent the implication that it is. The fact this industry seems utterly ****ing incapable of taking some damn responsibility for itself continues to disgust me, and I refuse to shoulder the blame for companies that cannot demonstrate one iota of self-reflection. If something you're doing is not working, change what you're doing! Stop trying to bend and break the world around you to try and manufacture an environment where your failed tactics could achieve some perverse form of success."

My favorite part of this article.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#152 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts

You know how car companies buy back their own cars and re-sell them used? Perhaps developers need to start buying back and re-selling their own used copies? Um...DUH? Yeah..this is loaded with DUH.

 

EA can offer a buy back for COD games. They'll buy your old copy, give you a discount on this years game, and wallah. They can now do what gamestop has been doing for years.

 

But this makes too much sense.

 

Let's blame the consumer instead. 

 

argh...

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no-scope-AK47

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#153 no-scope-AK47
Member since 2012 • 3755 Posts

I said it a while ago making and buying games cost too much. So much so that devs are scared to try anything new and only make a polished version of game x that sold well. The industry is stale seems everything has to be a blockbuster or a remake.

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LJS9502_basic

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#154 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180226 Posts
Write a blog about it Cliff. You couldn't even include a reason as to why "lowering the game budgets" is silly because of the 140 character limit. pls explain yourself. AAllxxjjnn
Because greed....he's afraid he might lose a few pennies.
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always_explicit

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#155 always_explicit
Member since 2007 • 3379 Posts

Its not a complicated point, he is saying the industry cant keep supporting a constant churning out of AAA titles at the same time as people are pciking up those titles cheaply on the used game market. Which makes perfect sense, of course gamers dont like it because it effects them but its just an obvious numbers game.

A quick example.

Companies make games based on the assumption they will sell 1 miliion copies  at full retail price. Instead what happens is they do sell one million copies, but a ridiculously high percentage of those discs are then re-sold by gamestop et al. None of the profits for those second hand sales go to the developers. Yet you still want sequels. 

You have gamer XXXX that buy gears 1 and sell it so they can buy gears 2 and sell that to get gears 3, 

Meanwhile a gamer goes to gamestop and picks up gears 1 and 2 on the cheap thanks to gamer XXXX - no money from this sale goes to the developer...but I bet my life this gamer still wants gears of war 3 doesnt he. He expects the developers to make it for him and will probably be on these same forums moaning if he doesnt like it.

My argument is if you dont pay  the retail price for the games you play then you dont deserve to be playing those games.

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II_Seraphim_II

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#156 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts

I said it a while ago making and buying games cost too much. So much so that devs are scared to try anything new and only make a polished version of game x that sold well. The industry is stale seems everything has to be a blockbuster or a remake.

no-scope-AK47
I agree with this 100% which is why im starting to love indie games. They may not have the crazy budget but they bring a new experience to the table. Terraria is one of my favorite games! And im really looking forward to transistor because i thought bastion was amazing. The music in bastion alone was well worth the price of admission :D
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Chris_Williams

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#157 Chris_Williams
Member since 2009 • 14882 Posts

they can't lower game budgets why?

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LOXO7

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#158 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

they can't lower game budgets why?

Chris_Williams

Because Cliffy says it's silly. Higher budgets obviously mean higher quality games. A reason why we don't see low budget games... oh.

Cliffy B, why are there indie games?

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Bread_or_Decide

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#159 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts

they can't lower game budgets why?

Chris_Williams
Well how else do you expect them to hammer out an Assassins Creed game every year? Talk about a franchise that's gone down the toilet.
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TheOwnerOner

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#160 TheOwnerOner
Member since 2007 • 2921 Posts
LOL, 8 page thread of idiots thinking they know what the **** they are talking about.
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ShadowDeathX

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#161 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11699 Posts

CDPR and 4A games are proof that Cliffy B is dead wrong too

seanmcloughlin
Well to be fair. Those companies are located in countries in where labour costs are much lower than say.... the United States.
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DarthaPerkinjan

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#162 DarthaPerkinjan
Member since 2005 • 1326 Posts

Stamping out the luxury of used games so we're forced to pay developers full price for even awful games?

Sorry,  even with movies I only buy the very best and rent the rest.

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messedupworld

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#163 messedupworld
Member since 2013 • 101 Posts

Its not a complicated point, he is saying the industry cant keep supporting a constant churning out of AAA titles at the same time as people are pciking up those titles cheaply on the used game market. Which makes perfect sense, of course gamers dont like it because it effects them but its just an obvious numbers game.

A quick example.

Companies make games based on the assumption they will sell 1 miliion copies  at full retail price. Instead what happens is they do sell one million copies, but a ridiculously high percentage of those discs are then re-sold by gamestop et al. None of the profits for those second hand sales go to the developers. Yet you still want sequels. 

You have gamer XXXX that buy gears 1 and sell it so they can buy gears 2 and sell that to get gears 3, 

Meanwhile a gamer goes to gamestop and picks up gears 1 and 2 on the cheap thanks to gamer XXXX - no money from this sale goes to the developer...but I bet my life this gamer still wants gears of war 3 doesnt he. He expects the developers to make it for him and will probably be on these same forums moaning if he doesnt like it.

My argument is if you dont pay  the retail price for the games you play then you dont deserve to be playing those games.

always_explicit
booyah! Thank you always_explicit for injecting some common sense into this thread.
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Sushiglutton

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#164 Sushiglutton
Member since 2009 • 10472 Posts
Then just lower game budgets :P. It's you who are the silly one CliffyB. Used games are a known reality. Companies should make their budgets with that in mind. If they don't, well that's their own fault and not the consumers.
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trent44

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#165 trent44
Member since 2008 • 255 Posts

Lower the game budgets and give your game great replay value so people don't want to sell their games.

That is what Nintendo does and they are happy with the model that consumers have been happy with since Atari 2600.

BTW, a message to Cliffy B.: There is nothing silly about lower budgets, it is called RUNNING A F***ING BUSINESS AND CONTROLLING YOUR COSTS!!!

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arkephonic

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#166 arkephonic
Member since 2006 • 7221 Posts

Cliffy B is an idiot.

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cheesie253

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#167 cheesie253
Member since 2003 • 1014 Posts
[QUOTE="DarthaPerkinjan"]

Stamping out the luxury of used games so we're forced to pay developers full price for even awful games?

Sorry,  even with movies I only buy the very best and rent the rest.

Used games are going nowhere on the One. Also you will not pay full price for a used game. There is a cut of the sale that goes to the developer not a new full price charge for a used game. It is also up to the publisher if the want to set up the used game structure.
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deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d

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#168 deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d
Member since 2005 • 7914 Posts
Cliffy B needs to get into the free to play industry. They are big banking and not complaining about used games
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Shottayouth13-

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#169 Shottayouth13-
Member since 2009 • 7018 Posts
I have one last response to Cliffy: How does he explain the Wii and Wii Sports? Outsold everything else with crap graphics. Who was demanding what now? Game devs with huge heads about their games needing every thing under the sun in them need to get their heads out of their butts. Don't blame us for your hubris and pompousness. Bread_or_Decide
Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.
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bbkkristian

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#170 bbkkristian
Member since 2008 • 14971 Posts
As The Regginator said, "Make better games!"
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Bread_or_Decide

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#171 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]I have one last response to Cliffy: How does he explain the Wii and Wii Sports? Outsold everything else with crap graphics. Who was demanding what now? Game devs with huge heads about their games needing every thing under the sun in them need to get their heads out of their butts. Don't blame us for your hubris and pompousness. Shottayouth13-
Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.

I also have a feeling those mario kart games had a very low rate of being sold back to gamestop. Heck I've never traded in a Nintendo game my whole life. Only crapola stuff.
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Bread_or_Decide

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#172 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
[QUOTE="TheOwnerOner"]LOL, 8 page thread of idiots thinking they know what the **** they are talking about.

I may not know the industry but I don't like being blamed for your failed products.
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bbkkristian

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#173 bbkkristian
Member since 2008 • 14971 Posts
[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]I have one last response to Cliffy: How does he explain the Wii and Wii Sports? Outsold everything else with crap graphics. Who was demanding what now? Game devs with huge heads about their games needing every thing under the sun in them need to get their heads out of their butts. Don't blame us for your hubris and pompousness. Shottayouth13-
Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.

It also questions how much they should spend on making the game graphically well. With the PS4 and X1's power, we as consumers expect top of the notch graphics, but that takes a lot of time and money. Is it worth it to take the loss to make the game graphically competitive?
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Shottayouth13-

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#174 Shottayouth13-
Member since 2009 • 7018 Posts
[QUOTE="Shottayouth13-"][QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]I have one last response to Cliffy: How does he explain the Wii and Wii Sports? Outsold everything else with crap graphics. Who was demanding what now? Game devs with huge heads about their games needing every thing under the sun in them need to get their heads out of their butts. Don't blame us for your hubris and pompousness. bbkkristian
Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.

It also questions how much they should spend on making the game graphically well. With the PS4 and X1's power, we as consumers expect top of the notch graphics, but that takes a lot of time and money. Is it worth it to take the loss to make the game graphically competitive?

Honestly, I've always felt that games didn't need to look any better than how they looked last gen (PS3/360 era). I don't need real life in my video games. And it's not the consumers that are asking for the most bleeding edge tech, it's the developers that are forcing it on to us. The majority of consumers really couldn't care less. They assume we want all that unnecessary fluff, but honestly we really couldn't care less. We just want fun games to play. The best selling games are usually never the best looking. And if you truly refuse to play a game because it doesn't look up to your standard, then find a different hobby. And finally, the weakest console usually sells the most, what does that tell you?
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hexashadow13

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#175 hexashadow13
Member since 2010 • 5157 Posts
[QUOTE="Shottayouth13-"][QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]I have one last response to Cliffy: How does he explain the Wii and Wii Sports? Outsold everything else with crap graphics. Who was demanding what now? Game devs with huge heads about their games needing every thing under the sun in them need to get their heads out of their butts. Don't blame us for your hubris and pompousness. bbkkristian
Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.

It also questions how much they should spend on making the game graphically well. With the PS4 and X1's power, we as consumers expect top of the notch graphics, but that takes a lot of time and money. Is it worth it to take the loss to make the game graphically competitive?

Give me PS3/360 level graphics at 1080p/60fps and we're good as gold.
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Shottayouth13-

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#176 Shottayouth13-
Member since 2009 • 7018 Posts
The videogame industry is a business. It's common business sense that if you're spending too much, then just lower the f*cking budget. Cut out things that aren't necessary. Find more efficient ways of producing things for less, but never do you take it out on your consumers. Consumers have a right to do whatever they want with whatever they purchased. Blaming them when the fault is your own bad budgeting only leads you down a slippery slope.
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lazerface216

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#177 lazerface216
Member since 2008 • 7564 Posts


Here's an excellent response to Cliffy B's bullshit: http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good--256227.phtml

X_CAPCOM_X

fnCzukI.gif

Brilliant response from jim. Brilliant.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#178 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
The videogame industry is a business. It's common business sense that if you're spending too much, then just lower the f*cking budget. Cut out things that aren't necessary. Find more efficient ways of producing things for less, but never do you take it out on your consumers. Consumers have a right to do whatever they want with whatever they purchased. Blaming them when the fault is your own bad budgeting only leads you down a slippery slope.Shottayouth13-
Nope. I'm pretty sure my game needs 20 songs licensed in it.
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KiZZo1

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#179 KiZZo1
Member since 2007 • 3989 Posts

It would be interesting to see the earnings of the top people in game development (a group CliffyB belongs to).

I personally suspect they are at an all time high, but strangely that's not the cause of the numbers "not adding up".

It's average Joe trading in a game to save a couple of bucks. But a CEO outrageous bonus is OK.

What a hypocrite ...

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Ballroompirate

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#180 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26695 Posts

So sad, I actually thought Cliffy B was a decent guy, now he's a douche.

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illmatic8582

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#182 illmatic8582
Member since 2006 • 674 Posts
[QUOTE="always_explicit"]

Its not a complicated point, he is saying the industry cant keep supporting a constant churning out of AAA titles at the same time as people are pciking up those titles cheaply on the used game market. Which makes perfect sense, of course gamers dont like it because it effects them but its just an obvious numbers game.

A quick example.

Companies make games based on the assumption they will sell 1 miliion copies  at full retail price. Instead what happens is they do sell one million copies, but a ridiculously high percentage of those discs are then re-sold by gamestop et al. None of the profits for those second hand sales go to the developers. Yet you still want sequels. 

You have gamer XXXX that buy gears 1 and sell it so they can buy gears 2 and sell that to get gears 3, 

Meanwhile a gamer goes to gamestop and picks up gears 1 and 2 on the cheap thanks to gamer XXXX - no money from this sale goes to the developer...but I bet my life this gamer still wants gears of war 3 doesnt he. He expects the developers to make it for him and will probably be on these same forums moaning if he doesnt like it.

My argument is if you dont pay  the retail price for the games you play then you dont deserve to be playing those games.

messedupworld
booyah! Thank you always_explicit for injecting some common sense into this thread.

Is it possible to make a game so good that no one wants to trade it in? Gears may be a AAA title with a big budget, but in reality it's a 6-8hr roller coaster ride with FTP multiplayer. If it was good, people wouldn't trade it in. I have a few games that I would never trade in bc they are amazing to me. Like metroid prime trilogy, Alan wake, heavy rain call of duty 4 etc...how about make better Games? Is that an option here or no
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illmatic8582

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#183 illmatic8582
Member since 2006 • 674 Posts
[QUOTE="Shottayouth13-"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="Shottayouth13-"] Exactly, look at Nintendo's core first party games. It wasn't bleeding edge technology, but their games sold millions upon millions. Mario Kart, on the weakest console last gen, sold 30 f*cking million. Then look at EA, who was disappointed that the last Dead Space only sold some 5 million copies, and cancelled the series because of that. If you're game is selling 5mil copies and not making a profit then you're seriously doing something WRONG. People want fun games to play, not movies to watch. They really should just lower the budget.

It also questions how much they should spend on making the game graphically well. With the PS4 and X1's power, we as consumers expect top of the notch graphics, but that takes a lot of time and money. Is it worth it to take the loss to make the game graphically competitive?

Honestly, I've always felt that games didn't need to look any better than how they looked last gen (PS3/360 era). I don't need real life in my video games. And it's not the consumers that are asking for the most bleeding edge tech, it's the developers that are forcing it on to us. The majority of consumers really couldn't care less. They assume we want all that unnecessary fluff, but honestly we really couldn't care less. We just want fun games to play. The best selling games are usually never the best looking. And if you truly refuse to play a game because it doesn't look up to your standard, then find a different hobby. And finally, the weakest console usually sells the most, what does that tell you?

This! Which is why everyone complains about how crappy Nintendo hardware is but they are laughing to the bank while ea owned studios are shutting down and/or selling out.
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ocidax

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#184 ocidax
Member since 2003 • 791 Posts

Reggie: Hey Cliffy, Make better games. 

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X_CAPCOM_X

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#186 X_CAPCOM_X
Member since 2004 • 9625 Posts

[QUOTE="X_CAPCOM_X"]


Here's an excellent response to Cliffy B's bullshit: http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good--256227.phtml

lazerface216

fnCzukI.gif

Brilliant response from jim. Brilliant.



Glad someone read it. Cliffy is full of shit. Publishers who make games that don't break even should rightfully take their losses. That is how the market works.

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handssss

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#187 handssss
Member since 2013 • 1907 Posts
I'd respect him for creating some of my favorite game franchises, but those have been run into the ground by Epic and all Cliffy B did was jump out of the sinking ship and stealing half of the life vests.
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Jimsmith757

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#188 Jimsmith757
Member since 2013 • 51 Posts

[QUOTE="D4W1L4H"]

They should just lower their game budgets.

KingsMessenger

That would mean lowering production values, which would simply lead to everyone bitching about how the game isn't as good as "X game that came out before it."

The industry is caught between a rock and a hard place.  Expectations get higher with every single game with a bigger budget, but that simply causes all games to have constantly escalating budgets.

 

Cliffy B is correct in this case.

I have been saying this since 2010.  

Not quite. If production values are so important for most gaming companies out there that lack a big budget then put out a $10 or $15 game that isn't as long or as big as a $60 game and if everyone likes it and buys it then release DLC for it as needed.