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[QUOTE="madsnakehhh"]
Not being able to Pause has to be one of the worst decisions ever for a video game.
And yes, it looks meh, no heavy storyline, terrible physics, hard as hell to the point of frustration and so so graphics.
Now with that being said i'm getting it for the combat, the boss battles, the atmosphere and the overall feeling of the dark phantasy world, however my hype went down as soon as i learn that 80 hours into it and they were barely 1/3 of the game, that pretty much told me i won't probably finish it ever, too many games but very few time, so an insanely long game is just a no no for me, then again i really want to try it, hopefully there is a way to end the game (the main "story" at least) in less time, but yeah, with Zelda around the corner, i feel i won't be playing Dark Souls that much.
loosingENDS
You can pause really, just save and exit
The backstory is fine, the game does not need a heavy front story line to be deep
As for graphics, looks great, Demon Souls looked great too, this looks much much better
And since when more gametime is a bad thing ? I would rather it was 400 hours myself, but 100 will do, since i will play it 6-7 times, like Demons Souls
I'm glad you have 400 hours to spare, but i don't.
So, to pause, i have to save and quite the game...yeah, i'm going to go with pressing the Start button is a much more easy way to pause a game.
you won't like dark souls then...lol but fyi, you can beat demon's souls without having to level/grind. you cannot pause, but you can exit and save at a safe point.[QUOTE="Some-Mist"][QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"] A little bit. It was somewhat interesting but plagued with annoyances (couldn't pause if I recall correctly) and seemed to require a lot of grinding to get souls (wanted to try the suicide souls glitch, but then lost interest before doing so and returned it to my friend whom I borrowed it from)Mystery_Writer
ya. but it's not elegantly designed. I remember frantically trying to pause the game in the middle of fighting a silly couple skeletons (at the very begning of the game) to answer a phone call, so I pressed the home button and left the room, only to come back later and find out my character had died and turned into a soul.
That's just bad game design no matter how you look at it.
P.S. I'd advice you to try Oblivion, if you're into medieval RPGs
Its meant to be played as an online game. Other players can invade at any time. You can't pause in a game like that. If you need to leave you should just learn the evacuate spell. Saves you alot of grief.All you do is pause and quit game, it takes 2 seconds. There's no saving and waiting till it's done. Takes like 2 seconds man.So, to pause, i have to save and quite the game...yeah, i'm going to go with pressing the Start button is a much more easy way to pause a game.
madsnakehhh
[QUOTE="Vaasman"]
[QUOTE="ioannisdenton"] [QUOTE="Yangire"]
[QUOTE="ioannisdenton"]
worst voice acting ever , terribad story , forgetable characters again , ragdoll psysics again , no tutorial at all again concerining stats and gameplay mechanics (tendencies in the first) are things gamers should jhave in mind when buying this crap... i ment game.
ioannisdenton
Ever heard of Chaos Wars? Plus there's barely any dialog in Demon's Souls.
The game doesn't focus on story, its a dungeon crawler.
Same as above.
Oh no, not ragdoll physics! This shall surely break the gameplay.
Read the manual, its basic RPG fare, and you can always find out by yourself.
guys!!! please this is the second game here, yes they are not game changers at all but should not they fix the psysics? i owned and finished demon's souls and while i invested 50 hours in the end of the day it offered nothing nothing memorable (except maneater cursing my self to buying this game xD), the only memorable moments was something like 45:40 at the quick look video. dungeon crawler for sure but would not a story and some characters make it better? also imo combat is not good at all, you learn patterns wait and then attack , same as demons souls. i do not know abpout you but i really do not like it and i really wonder what gamers find in this game."OMG, tactics. Screw this game, terrible combat." is basically what you are saying. Sorry the game doesn't have enemies hiding beihnd cover, and popping their heads out in 4 second intervals for you to land an EZmode headshot, you actually have to learn attack patterns from different enemies, and make sure you don't screw up (cuz you'll be dead). The combat in Demon's Souls was amazing, and gave the player a lot of freedom of movement, which a medieval sword-fighting game should do.
The lack of pausing was one of the few flaws I could find with Demons Souls. It was the biggest flaw with the game. Of course, fights were typically short, so this was mostly a non-issue.
Getting interrupted during boss fights on the other hand. I would say that being unable to pause during singleplayer was an issue. Not a major one though.
*FACEPALM* were you trying to use those to describe Dark Souls and then suggest playing Oblivion instead?I'm sure you've never touched Demon's Souls after that comment, I think you are just a WRPG fanboy trying to downplay the superb creation that is Dark Souls simply because it's a Japanese developer that made it. Do you own Demon's souls? how about a PS3?
casharmy
He mentioned that he had played it. Perhaps its possible that he preferred Oblivion. Certainly doesn't make him a fanboy. Its all personal preference.
Those two goofballs at GB obviously didn't play Demons Souls and acted like a couple jackasses. I never go to that site and I never will again, disgraceful...
The lack of pausing was one of the few flaws I could find with Demons Souls. It was the biggest flaw with the game.
Maroxad
Wrong. The ability to pause the game would make invasions unbearable. Either the invader or the host could just pause the game and go eat a sandwich or something...
[QUOTE="Maroxad"]
The lack of pausing was one of the few flaws I could find with Demons Souls. It was the biggest flaw with the game.
trollop_scat
Wrong. The ability to pause the game would make invasions unbearable. Either the invader or the host could just pause the game and go eat a sandwich or something...
Or they could just disable pause in multiplayer. I.E. if you are in soul form or offline mode, you can pause.[QUOTE="trollop_scat"][QUOTE="Maroxad"]
The lack of pausing was one of the few flaws I could find with Demons Souls. It was the biggest flaw with the game.
clone01
Wrong. The ability to pause the game would make invasions unbearable. Either the invader or the host could just pause the game and go eat a sandwich or something...
Or they could just disable pause in multiplayer. I.E. if you are in soul form or offline mode, you can pause.Or they could just not include it :o
People get by just fine in Demon's Souls, so I don't see what the hubub is about.
[QUOTE="trollop_scat"][QUOTE="Maroxad"]
The lack of pausing was one of the few flaws I could find with Demons Souls. It was the biggest flaw with the game.
clone01
Wrong. The ability to pause the game would make invasions unbearable. Either the invader or the host could just pause the game and go eat a sandwich or something...
Or they could just disable pause in multiplayer. I.E. if you are in soul form or offline mode, you can pause.Or you could just go play Zelda. Its rated E and was made for kids as young as 10 years old, according to the rating. I'm sure it will have a pause feature and the monsters all look really cute so you wont get any nightmares...
Those two goofballs at GB obviously didn't play Demons Souls and acted like a couple jackasses. I never go to that site and I never will again, disgraceful...
trollop_scat
Vinny played through Demon's Souls in it's entirety and Matt played the game as well, I'm just not sure if he ever finished it.
[QUOTE="trollop_scat"]
Those two goofballs at GB obviously didn't play Demons Souls and acted like a couple jackasses. I never go to that site and I never will again, disgraceful...
Phoenix534
Vinny played through Demon's Souls in it's entirety and Matt played the game as well, I'm just not sure if he ever finished it.
Whatever, they were acting like idiots and didn't take anything seriously, I couldn't watch. Dark Souls is not a game for chuckleheads like them, I hope they don't review this one either. I can't take Giant Bomb seriously if they won't take the games they're previewing seriously. They're in the poop group of reviewers alongside Yahtzee in my book...
[QUOTE="madsnakehhh"]All you do is pause and quit game, it takes 2 seconds. There's no saving and waiting till it's done. Takes like 2 seconds man.So, to pause, i have to save and quite the game...yeah, i'm going to go with pressing the Start button is a much more easy way to pause a game.
Luxen90
I really hope you are not suggesting that its as fast as a traditional pause button, besides, when i want to resume my game i need to load the game again, which it takes around 30 seconds.
No doubt the length and the lack of pause will be my biggest drawbacks with this game.
For every other game here System Wars: Graphic, physics, and all the other stuff matters.
Except for Dark/Demon's soul: Nothing matters because THE GAME IS HARDCORE OK. It's brutally difficult and wants you to die over and over so all your complaints are null.
Call me a hater cuz that's what I am I guess but everytime I read threads regarding these two games, I start hate more and more on the games, mostly thanks to everyone defending these games to the death. Ewwwwww.
Just looking from that video, I think it looks very meh too.
[QUOTE="Phoenix534"]
[QUOTE="trollop_scat"]
Those two goofballs at GB obviously didn't play Demons Souls and acted like a couple jackasses. I never go to that site and I never will again, disgraceful...
trollop_scat
Vinny played through Demon's Souls in it's entirety and Matt played the game as well, I'm just not sure if he ever finished it.
Whatever, they were acting like idiots and didn't take anything seriously, I couldn't watch. Dark Souls is not a game for chuckleheads like them, I hope they don't review this one either. I can't take Giant Bomb seriously if they won't take the games they're previewing seriously. They're in the poop group of reviewers alongside Yahtzee in my book...
Believe it or not but that's how people act when they're having fun. Why so serious.All you do is pause and quit game, it takes 2 seconds. There's no saving and waiting till it's done. Takes like 2 seconds man.[QUOTE="Luxen90"][QUOTE="madsnakehhh"]
So, to pause, i have to save and quite the game...yeah, i'm going to go with pressing the Start button is a much more easy way to pause a game.
madsnakehhh
I really hope you are not suggesting that its as fast as a traditional pause button, besides, when i want to resume my game i need to load the game again, which it takes around 30 seconds.
No doubt the length and the lack of pause will be my biggest drawbacks with this game.
Nothing blew me away in that video
kozzy1234
When I watched videos of Demon's Souls I didn't think it looked special, but then I played it... :o
Demon's Souls has some of the best physics i've seen in a action rpg. The way a weapon realistly reacts to it's environment. Every weapon has it's own weight and set of physics that react differently depending on character stats and the type of enemy you use that weapon on. Movement restriction/freedom largely relies on the armor you use, which also reacts dynamically to the environment. I expect even better things from Dark Souls. Obviously your used to arcadey type gameplay for all your games because you have no idea of anything else. Or you are part of the casual COD crowd who only play certain games due to social pressure and are incapable of making up your own mind of what is good.1- janky physics 2- outdated graphics 3- bad storyline I was really hoping for this game to be somewhat interesting as I was honestly planning on getting itMystery_Writer
The graphics are not the best out there but they are not outdated. The art design looks phenominal, which more than makes up for a few texture issues.
How can you say the storyline is bad when you haven't even played the game. Almost nobody knows the ins and outs of the story. You could make a hundred COD games and still wont have enough to fill the story arcs of demon's souls or Dark souls. Actually, it doesn't take much for any game to have more of a story than Call of Duty.
People have very little concept for what a "target audience" is. If the fun you get from games is entirely based on physics, graphics, and pausing - you're not part of that target audience. Though I think the graphics are great for a console game.For every other game here System Wars: Graphic, physics, and all the other stuff matters.
Except for Dark/Demon's soul: Nothing matters because THE GAME IS HARDCORE OK. It's brutally difficult and wants you to die over and over so all your complaints are null.
Call me a hater cuz that's what I am I guess but everytime I read threads regarding these two games, I start hate more and more on the games, mostly thanks to everyone defending these games to the death. Ewwwwww.
Just looking from that video, I think it looks very meh too.xWoW_Rougex
[QUOTE="kozzy1234"]
Nothing blew me away in that video
Master_ShakeXXX
When I watched videos of Demon's Souls I didn't think it looked special, but then I played it... :o
Everybody thought the game looked like crap when it was first shown 4 years ago, I barely remember anybody liking what they saw lol.[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"][QUOTE="kozzy1234"]
Nothing blew me away in that video
Luxen90
When I watched videos of Demon's Souls I didn't think it looked special, but then I played it... :o
Everybody thought the game looked like crap when it was first shown 4 years ago, I barely remember anybody liking what they saw lol.Well the game does look (and Is) fairly bad.
[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"][QUOTE="kozzy1234"]
Nothing blew me away in that video
Luxen90
When I watched videos of Demon's Souls I didn't think it looked special, but then I played it... :o
Everybody thought the game looked like crap when it was first shown 4 years ago, I barely remember anybody liking what they saw lol.It wasn't even really on my radar until I saw that it beat out Uncharted 2 for GOTY, then I got curious and bought it. It's one of my favorite games of all time now :D
[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"][QUOTE="kozzy1234"]
Nothing blew me away in that video
Luxen90
When I watched videos of Demon's Souls I didn't think it looked special, but then I played it... :o
Everybody thought the game looked like crap when it was first shown 4 years ago, I barely remember anybody liking what they saw lol.not everybody! I originally had the asian version preordered. I originally lurked on gamespot, and then made a username in order to hype it ( http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/26812760/ps3-game-collection?msg_id=310367128#310367128 ), just take a look at my original posts and my demon's souls review that I posted after I beat it in may 2009 :P (or at my trophy dates on my psn account!) don't you remember the system wars battles I used to have with bioshockownz??[QUOTE="madsnakehhh"]
[QUOTE="Luxen90"] All you do is pause and quit game, it takes 2 seconds. There's no saving and waiting till it's done. Takes like 2 seconds man.Luxen90
I really hope you are not suggesting that its as fast as a traditional pause button, besides, when i want to resume my game i need to load the game again, which it takes around 30 seconds.
No doubt the length and the lack of pause will be my biggest drawbacks with this game.
Fair enough but i just cannot avoid to think that its a bad design choice.
Anyway, like i said, i'm hyped for the game, in fact i have my pre order payed already, i like how the combat looks as well as the dark fantasy world, but i think the game has some problems like the Pause and the lenght and yet i really want to play it.
:| Your taste in games is not the fact, nor will it ever be. This is a game about dungeon crawling and combat, first and foremost -it's about the world building and atmosphere surrounding that - every system and mechanic as well as aesthetic supports this. This is a game with extremely strong direction, and its unforgiving-ness which fits into its fiction, tone, and mechanical functionality. It's a good game that has received very specific praise for a reason. If you think horrible ragdolls get in the way of your experience, then quite frankly you should be questioning your own damn perception of games.guys!!! please this is the second game here, yes they are not game changers at all but should not they fix the psysics? i owned and finished demon's souls and while i invested 50 hours in the end of the day it offered nothing nothing memorable (except maneater cursing my self to buying this game xD), the only memorable moments was something like 45:40 at the quick look video. dungeon crawler for sure but would not a story and some characters make it better? also imo combat is not good at all, you learn patterns wait and then attack , same as demons souls. i do not know abpout you but i really do not like it and i really wonder what gamers find in this game.
ioannisdenton
The game is meant to be played online. I have yet to see someone pause in an online game. Besides, if it worries you so much, just quit game when your gone, and then re-enter. You'll be at the exact same place you were before. Dark Souls will probably have rich lore just like Demon's Souls. See: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/954345-demons-souls/faqs/62697 The game just doesn't shove it into your face or show it via dialogue only. (As the FAQ says) Difficulty is now a bad thing? Demon's Souls was hard at first, but then you got better and then it was a breeze. Dark Souls will be even harder at first, but will be very, VERY rewarding. Graphics were never even the focus of the game. The combat is. Besides, the graphics look pretty good. Fully completing Dark Souls takes 100-150 hours IIRC, so how's 80 hours one-third of the whole game? More like 1/2 of the game.Not being able to Pause has to be one of the worst decisions ever for a video game.
And yes, it looks meh, no heavy storyline, terrible physics, hard as hell to the point of frustration and so so graphics.
Now with that being said i'm getting it for the combat, the boss battles, the atmosphere and the overall feeling of the dark phantasy world, however my hype went down as soon as i learn that 80 hours into it and they were barely 1/3 of the game, that pretty much told me i won't probably finish it ever, too many games but very few time, so an insanely long game is just a no no for me, then again i really want to try it, hopefully there is a way to end the game (the main "story" at least) in less time, but yeah, with Zelda around the corner, i feel i won't be playing Dark Souls that much.
madsnakehhh
This is coming from a person who wanted to stay away from Demon's Souls because I was worried that I'd die often because there's no pause screen. Also, if you are playing offline, you won't even have to worry about quitting, just go to a spot where there are no enemies..
Luxen90
Honestly that's exactly the experience the developers intended, and the reason you can't pause. When you commit to an instanced level, you're entering extremely hostile and dangerous territory; you can't pause to remove yourself from it and beam out - which is why items pulling you back to the nexus are important. This also fits with the online functionality - you can't pause when you're in contact with a master server. And naturally this all fits with the tone of the game. Now that, that is good game design; it's thought out and serves a purpose, and enforces the intended experience - if it frustrates you or ultimately gets in the way, then it's not a game for you.I really hope you are not suggesting that its as fast as a traditional pause button, besides, when i want to resume my game i need to load the game again, which it takes around 30 seconds.
No doubt the length and the lack of pause will be my biggest drawbacks with this game.
madsnakehhh
You clearly haven't been reading into why people enjoy the game at all. Because people are enjoying the games, and enjoying the games emphasis on difficulty and death as integral mechanics in the games design, as well as tone and atmosphere they must be wrong. Right? Better cast judgement on a game because of others opinions, that's the smart and intelligent thing to do. Just wow.For every other game here System Wars: Graphic, physics, and all the other stuff matters.
Except for Dark/Demon's soul: Nothing matters because THE GAME IS HARDCORE OK. It's brutally difficult and wants you to die over and over so all your complaints are null.
Call me a hater cuz that's what I am I guess but everytime I read threads regarding these two games, I start hate more and more on the games, mostly thanks to everyone defending these games to the death. Ewwwwww.
Just looking from that video, I think it looks very meh too.xWoW_Rougex
worst voice acting ever , terribad story , forgetable characters again , ragdoll psysics again , no tutorial at all again concerining stats and gameplay mechanics (tendencies in the first) are things gamers should jhave in mind when buying this crap... i ment game.
and please do not say "this game is not for you" , my arguments above are facts, the game Should have better V.o , at least a understandable story, some likeble characters, a tutorial about how the game works and got rid of these vomitable ragdoll physics.ioannisdenton
Terribad story? Like I said in my previous post, read this: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/954345-demons-souls/faqs/62697
Oh crap, Dark Souls is about characters now? Wow man, let's just completely forget that the combat and atmosphere is the main focus of the game! Yeah man, ragdoll physics TOTALLY destroy the game, yo! 100% agreed!
Herpity Derp. No tutorial about stats? Try the instruction manual or read the big numbers that say things like "Miracle Power 1000 > 2000" or "Stamina 152 > 160". The tendencies were explained in the Nexus. Go downstairs and you'll see heaps of messages. Two of them say "When the Tendency is closer to white, the Demon's Powers are weakened" and "When the tendency is closer to black, the Demon's powers are increased". But I do kinda agree, they could've been explained better.
Your arguments above are facts? LOL. "Terrible voice acting" is your OPINION. "Terribad story" is your OPINION. "Forgettable characters" is your OPINION. "No tutorial" is a WRONG fact. By the way, how do you know about all the NPCs to say that they are "forgettable" and that the voice acting of all the NPCs is terrible? Also, please do tell me what the story is like and how far are you into it? Have you played the game?
The story was understandable if you actually took a few seconds to analyze dialogue, read item descriptions and world descriptions. DS definitely had some memorable characters like the MiB, Yuria, Sparkly etc. Have you even played the game? There was a tutorial RIGHT at the beginning. Do you really think they would exclude it from Dark Souls? Agreed, those ragdolls destroy the whole game! I mean, you can't even play the game when they touch your feet!
[QUOTE="madsnakehhh"]The game is meant to be played online. I have yet to see someone pause in an online game. Besides, if it worries you so much, just quit game when your gone, and then re-enter. You'll be at the exact same place you were before. Dark Souls will probably have rich lore just like Demon's Souls. See: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/954345-demons-souls/faqs/62697 The game just doesn't shove it into your face or show it via dialogue only. (As the FAQ says) Difficulty is now a bad thing? Demon's Souls was hard at first, but then you got better and then it was a breeze. Dark Souls will be even harder at first, but will be very, VERY rewarding. Graphics were never even the focus of the game. The combat is. Besides, the graphics look pretty good. Fully completing Dark Souls takes 100-150 hours IIRC, so how's 80 hours one-third of the whole game? More like 1/2 of the game.Not being able to Pause has to be one of the worst decisions ever for a video game.
And yes, it looks meh, no heavy storyline, terrible physics, hard as hell to the point of frustration and so so graphics.
Now with that being said i'm getting it for the combat, the boss battles, the atmosphere and the overall feeling of the dark phantasy world, however my hype went down as soon as i learn that 80 hours into it and they were barely 1/3 of the game, that pretty much told me i won't probably finish it ever, too many games but very few time, so an insanely long game is just a no no for me, then again i really want to try it, hopefully there is a way to end the game (the main "story" at least) in less time, but yeah, with Zelda around the corner, i feel i won't be playing Dark Souls that much.
Oil_rope_bombs
Reviwers have mentioned (IGN i think) that they were 80 hours into the game and they were barely 1/3 of the game...or it was 60? still, i don't have enough time for this super long games, that's why is a drawback for me.
The story was understandable if you actually took a few seconds to analyze dialogue, read item descriptions and world descriptions. DS definitely had some memorable characters like the MiB, Yuria, Sparkly etc. Have you even played the game? There was a tutorial RIGHT at the beginning. Do you really think they would exclude it from Dark Souls? Agreed, those ragdolls destroy the whole game! I mean, you can't even play the game when they touch your feet!
Oil_rope_bombs
I loved this aspect in Metroid Prime story, so i'm excited to see this in Dark Souls.
Man oh man I was upset at missing Demons Souls because it was a PS3 exclusive, but now that Dark Souls is going multiplat,(Which I found out yesterday, haha. I'm a little behind.) I cannot freakin wait to get my butt handed to me over and over and over.. and over. I love me some challenging gameplay, especially from an RPG type game. Thaaank you Atlus.
Honestly that's exactly the experience the developers intended, and the reason you can't pause. When you commit to an instanced level, you're entering extremely hostile and dangerous territory; you can't pause to remove yourself from it and beam out - which is why items pulling you back to the nexus are important. This also fits with the online functionality - you can't pause when you're in contact with a master server. And naturally this all fits with the tone of the game. Now that, that is good game design; it's thought out and serves a purpose, and enforces the intended experience - if it frustrates you or ultimately gets in the way, then it's not a game for you. skrat_01Not sure if you meant to quote me, but I said earlier in the thread why you cannot pause :P, I was just telling him, before I played Demon's Souls and didn't know anything about it, I didn't like the idea.
Or you could just go play Zelda. Its rated E and was made for kids as young as 10 years old, according to the rating. I'm sure it will have a pause feature and the monsters all look really cute so you wont get any nightmares...trollop_scat
Zelda is an excellent franchise. Don't know if you were insinuating it wasn't. Demon's Souls is an excellent game. Don't see why including a pause function would lessen its quality.
[QUOTE="skrat_01"]Honestly that's exactly the experience the developers intended, and the reason you can't pause. When you commit to an instanced level, you're entering extremely hostile and dangerous territory; you can't pause to remove yourself from it and beam out - which is why items pulling you back to the nexus are important. This also fits with the online functionality - you can't pause when you're in contact with a master server. And naturally this all fits with the tone of the game. Now that, that is good game design; it's thought out and serves a purpose, and enforces the intended experience - if it frustrates you or ultimately gets in the way, then it's not a game for you. Luxen90Not sure if you meant to quote me, but I said earlier in the thread why you cannot pause :P, I was just telling him, before I played Demon's Souls and didn't know anything about it, I didn't like the idea.Ah nah I was quoting you, though my response was pretty much rolled up into two. Understandable that you didn't like it, though yeah, it's pretty deliberate - ach so I do suppose it was unnecessary quoting!
Whatever, they were acting like idiots and didn't take anything seriously, I couldn't watch. Dark Souls is not a game for chuckleheads like them, I hope they don't review this one either. I can't take Giant Bomb seriously if they won't take the games they're previewing seriously. They're in the poop group of reviewers alongside Yahtzee in my book...trollop_scat
So you're saying you have to take Demon's Souls "seriously" to enjoy it? Hmm, and here I thought that games are supposed to be fun.
[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]dunno man. from what I've seen of the video: 1- janky physics 2- outdated graphics 3- bad storyline I was really hoping for this game to be somewhat interesting as I was honestly planning on getting it If you're playing Dark Souls for any of those reasons, you're playing for the wrong reasons. Dark/Demon's Souls focus on 2 things. Gameplay and multiplayer. The rest is just second rate stuff. The gameplay is easily the most important, and the multiplayer helps with the replay value greatly. That's all it needs.the GB crew never even bothered to review demons souls.
It's pretty obvious that they're simply not into punishing games like this.
Mystery_Writer
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