Destructoid: And you wonder why developers 'hate' PC gamers.

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"]

Utterly stupid rant. Especially the World of Goo 90% piracy rate complaint. On Steam alone the game sold 100,000k copies. If we were to speculate that the game has sold a total of 200,000 copies (thanks to their "pay what you want sale" which sold ~60k, and you need to factor in other digital outlets). For an indie game that cost them under $100k to make, they've made an absolute killing on the PC. Piracy rate claims are utterly meaningless. Is the author suggesting that if not for piracy, the game would have sold 2 million copies?

General_X

While I agree that the rant was stupid, he's actually he's correct regarding the World of Goo piracy:

Carmel explains how they reached the dramatic figure.

"first, and most importantly, how we came up with this number: the game allows players to have their high scores reported to our server (it's an optional checkbox). we record each score and the IP from which it came. we divided the total number of sales we had from all sources by the total number of unique IPs in our database, and came up with about 0.1. that's how we came up with 90%."

Source

It's true that we can't tell if it's 90% or 95% or 80% but it's sure as #@$ shows that piracy of the game is massive, especially considering that this is a small studio indie game. Not only that, but the developers sold the game for whatever price that the buy choice to pay.. and people still pirated it in huge numbers.

Well I'm glad he doesn't really have a say-so.

They may get robbed multiple times a day, but they can also take a much larger cut of the money that their game sells for. Think of it like the Free Market. If you do a terrible job and fight with the customers and insult them then you will fail, but if you create an awesome product and market it correctly that you can be more successful than you would be if you had gone to consoles. The free internet provides great places for pirates to go, but it also provides the absolute best for the honest people to go (Steam, Good old Games, Direct2Drive etc...). The openness of the internet can be either a curse or a blessing, it all depends on how good of a product you produce.

[QUOTE="General_X"][QUOTE="Mazoch"]

While I agree that the rant was stupid, he's actually he's correct regarding the World of Goo piracy:

Carmel explains how they reached the dramatic figure.

"first, and most importantly, how we came up with this number: the game allows players to have their high scores reported to our server (it's an optional checkbox). we record each score and the IP from which it came. we divided the total number of sales we had from all sources by the total number of unique IPs in our database, and came up with about 0.1. that's how we came up with 90%."

Source

Mazoch

It's true that we can't tell if it's 90% or 95% or 80% but it's sure as #@$ shows that piracy of the game is massive, especially considering that this is a small studio indie game. Not only that, but the developers sold the game for whatever price that the buy choice to pay.. and people still pirated it in huge numbers.

i wouldnt be surprised if they raised the number just to B*** and moan for an excuse later on.

Makes sense to me.

sooooo glad to see people taking Destructoid seriously :|

Also please stop saying PC gaming is dying. We all know Steam started the march on popularizing the idea of cheap digital downloadable ganes. That's more than enough proof buuuuuuut if you need more the number of sales (as in games bought) on steam + sales of Blizzard games helps too :P

They may get robbed multiple times a day, but they can also take a much larger cut of the money that their game sells for. Think of it like the Free Market. If you do a terrible job and fight with the customers and insult them then you will fail, but if you create an awesome product and market it correctly that you can be more successful than you would be if you had gone to consoles. The free internet provides great places for pirates to go, but it also provides the absolute best for the honest people to go (Steam, Good old Games, Direct2Drive etc...). The openness of the internet can be either a curse or a blessing, it all depends on how good of a product you produce.

hoola

I wish I could agree with you, but to be honest it looks to me like deliberately seeking the one size fits all development philosophy seems to work better for most big title developers. Look at Infinity Ward and Cod:MW2. PC Gamers were enraged at the lack of dedicated servers and mod tools. However it MW2 was still one of the top selling games on the PC. Look at the PC Gamer rage aimed at StarCraft 2 for being split into 3 parts.

The problem is that treating the PC Gamers 'with respect' does not appear to help sales or reduce piracy. This doesn't mean that PC gaming can't be profitable, it certainly doesn't mean that PC Gaming is dead or that publishers and developers should leave the PC Platform. However, while I'm sure that a good reputation is helpful, I'm not really seeing any major significance from it. Sure Valve Games sell well, but so does Call of Duty.

I think if developers really could see a clear financial advantage in going an extra mile for PC Gamers, I'm sure they would. The problem is that right now that dosent seem to be the case.

I'd like to print that article he wrote and shove it down his throat with my fists.

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

[QUOTE="General_X"]Because people only play games from one computer in one location right? Laptops don't exist at all.Deadbeatcobra

It's true that we can't tell if it's 90% or 95% or 80% but it's sure as #@$ shows that piracy of the game is massive, especially considering that this is a small studio indie game. Not only that, but the developers sold the game for whatever price that the buy choice to pay.. and people still pirated it in huge numbers.

i wouldnt be surpried if they raised the number just to B*** and moan for an excuse later on.

And you are right in that one pirated copy cannot be considered a lost sale.

What I find interesting is not so much whether it's 90% or 60%, but that we are talking about a game, when you are looking at all the usual excuses for piracy, this game should not have been pirated:

- The game had no DRM at all

- The game was developed by a small independent indie studio, not a big evil corporation

- it was a PC exclusive (later ported to the Wii and Ipad), it certainly wasn't 'consolized'

- You could buy it for *any* price. For a long time you could buy it for any price. You could get the game for 1 cent, and yet people still pirated 5-10 times more than they bought it.

Fortunately World of Goo also shows the flip side to the argument. While they might have been pirated a lot they also sold a lot. The game was a big success on the PC.

[QUOTE="soulitane"]I'm glad he isn't a game maker. BodyElite

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

Right....those $1+ billion in Steam revenue plus nearly 200% increase in the last year alone "Says Hi".

BodyElite

LMAO. Crysis and Crysis Warhead sold nearly 5 million copies. That's quite impressive considering the power you need to run these two games. Try harder next time. Also, 11 million WOW users says hi.

Stop for one second and think about what he is saying, he does make a lot of valid points. Jims only problem is he exaggerates those points to a degree that get people all riled up. PC support has been on the decline due to piracy, that i will agree with. I dont agree with him saying that PC gaming will DIE, thats crazy talk as there will always be at least be a few people still gaming on the PC, and that I am happy with because I think its fair to say that most people started gaming on the PC, and to a small degree EVERYONE is a PC gamer so a part of everyone wants PC gaming to stay. Everyone thinks he is just trolling, but think about this, he is actually well respected in the video game industry, he may not be respected by gamers but by the professionals, he is well liked. David Jaffe was quoted as saying that he likes his no holds barred style of journalism, and Jim isn't afraid of putting games in its place. Watch some of his Jimquisition videos, the points and arguements he brings up are spot on, yet gamers still give him crap for it.

One of his points that he brings up is how some of the excuses are mindnumbingly insane. You pirate because of a necessity!?! I'm sorry gaming isnt a necessity, its a pass time. Jim presents this point well and it is VERY hard to disagree with him.

Apart from his exaggerations, he needs to tone down the language, a little swearing is okay but the amount of profanity he uses is worse then the amount in Killzone 2.

[QUOTE="Deadbeatcobra"]

[QUOTE="Mazoch"] So you think that everyone reports their high score in the first place? Or that the average WoG player not only plays, but gets high scores on multiple different machines?

It's true that we can't tell if it's 90% or 95% or 80% but it's sure as #@$ shows that piracy of the game is massive, especially considering that this is a small studio indie game. Not only that, but the developers sold the game for whatever price that the buy choice to pay.. and people still pirated it in huge numbers.

Mazoch

i wouldnt be surpried if they raised the number just to B*** and moan for an excuse later on.

And you are right in that one pirated copy cannot be considered a lost sale.

What I find interesting is not so much whether it's 90% or 60%, but that we are talking about a game, when you are looking at all the usual excuses for piracy, this game should not have been pirated:

- The game had no DRM at all

- The game was developed by a small independent indie studio, not a big evil corporation

- it was a PC exclusive (later ported to the Wii and Ipad), it certainly wasn't 'consolized'

- You could buy it for *any* price. For a long time you could buy it for any price. You could get the game for 1 cent, and yet people still pirated 5-10 times more than they bought it.

Fortunately World of Goo also shows the flip side to the argument. While they might have been pirated a lot they also sold a lot. The game was a big success on the PC.

Its good world of goo did well, always good to hear indie devs were successful with their games.

DISCLAIMER: This post will be ignored by the "PC piracy is killing the platform" propagandists.

If piracy was so important why the PS3 with its ZERO piracy had LOWER attach rates than the PIRATED-WITHIN-THREE-MONTHS Xbox360??

Ill wait for any damage control.

True_Gamer_

Don't be silly. Piracy doesn't exist on consoles.

/sarcasm now disabled.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]

DISCLAIMER: This post will be ignored by the "PC piracy is killing the platform" propagandists.

If piracy was so important why the PS3 with its ZERO piracy had LOWER attach rates than the PIRATED-WITHIN-THREE-MONTHS Xbox360??

Ill wait for any damage control.

ChubbyGuy40

Don't be silly. Piracy doesn't exist on consoles.

/sarcasm now disabled.

Of course, when someone hacks their console with either a modchip or mastercode. They're clearly aiming to put Linux on their console, not play pirated games.

he makes SOME valid points, but the rest are just opinions and delusions.

I'm not a PC gamer, but I have friends who are PC pirates, some of them are regulars here on SW too. You guys know who you are. :o

Of course, when someone hacks their console with either a modchip or mastercode. They're clearly aiming to put Linux on their console, not play pirated games.

Vesica_Prime

Well duh what else are we gonna do? I need Linux running on old hardware that its not even optimized for so I can access features I already have on PC or the PS3 unmodded. I plan on using my own BIOS dumps of old consoles with my own ripped images of old games too. I mean who is really gonna go and download Blu Rays amirite!?

What that title proposes is that all PC-gamers are pirates.

It should say, And you wonder why developers hate pirates.

What that title proposes is that all PC-gamers are pirates.

It should say, And you wonder why developers hate pirates.

fireballonfire

I just wanted to add that I've never wondered why developers hate pirates. It's not very hard to understand why. Thus making that destructoid guy lookingfoolish wasting time typing stuff we all already know.

What that title proposes is that all PC-gamers are pirates.

It should say, And you wonder why developers hate pirates.

fireballonfire

Well maybe some of us really are pirates! I don't wear my pirate hat, peg leg, parrot, and sabre sword around for nothing! YARRRGH!

Why everybody gotta hate pirates that play on PC? :( We're people too! Just because you can't have an awesome eyepatch doesn't mean you and those stinkin' devs get the right to...oh wait you aren't talking about pirates at sea.

I'm not a PC gamer, but I have friends who are PC pirates, some of them are regulars here on SW too. You guys know who you are. :o

Bigboi500

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

I'm not a PC gamer, but I have friends who are PC pirates, some of them are regulars here on SW too. You guys know who you are. :o

SAGE_OF_FIRE

Ever hear of that kid who bought all those games he has for PSP?

Yeah, me neither! :lol:

[QUOTE="fireballonfire"]

What that title proposes is that all PC-gamers are pirates.

It should say, And you wonder why developers hate pirates.

ChubbyGuy40

Well maybe some of us really are pirates! I don't wear my pirate hat, peg leg, parrot, and sabre sword around for nothing! YARRRGH!

Why everybody gotta hate pirates that play on PC? :( We're people too! Just because you can't have an awesome eyepatch doesn't mean you and those stinkin' devs get the right to...oh wait you aren't talking about pirates at sea.

What does that make a sea pirate pirating games then?

[QUOTE="lawlessx"][QUOTE="Deadbeatcobra"]

oh dang if he was CEO of EA he wouldnt last a week, pull the PC version because of naggers? lol most fail article ive read in a while

ChubbyGuy40

I think he meant to say "wife" :lol:

Consoles have a bigger marketshare, but Pc is currently more profitable it seems. Console revenue going down, PC sales and revenue getting a very good boost. If you take a CD Projekt style approach to PC you'll get plenty of sales, hype, and respect from PC gamers.

All in all, its not the pirates fault. Its the publishers who want to make more money by going after the casual/larger market.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="fireballonfire"]

What that title proposes is that all PC-gamers are pirates.

It should say, And you wonder why developers hate pirates.

fireballonfire

Well maybe some of us really are pirates! I don't wear my pirate hat, peg leg, parrot, and sabre sword around for nothing! YARRRGH!

Why everybody gotta hate pirates that play on PC? :( We're people too! Just because you can't have an awesome eyepatch doesn't mean you and those stinkin' devs get the right to...oh wait you aren't talking about pirates at sea.

What does that make a sea pirate pirating games then?

Imaginary!

I thought of something funny but I'd probably get modded for it, or people wouldn't understand.

[QUOTE="fireballonfire"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Well maybe some of us really are pirates! I don't wear my pirate hat, peg leg, parrot, and sabre sword around for nothing! YARRRGH!

Why everybody gotta hate pirates that play on PC? :( We're people too! Just because you can't have an awesome eyepatch doesn't mean you and those stinkin' devs get the right to...oh wait you aren't talking about pirates at sea.

ChubbyGuy40

What does that make a sea pirate pirating games then?

Imaginary!

I thought of something funny but I'd probably get modded for it, or people wouldn't understand.

Does it start with a "c"?

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]

DISCLAIMER: This post will be ignored by the "PC piracy is killing the platform" propagandists.

If piracy was so important why the PS3 with its ZERO piracy had LOWER attach rates than the PIRATED-WITHIN-THREE-MONTHS Xbox360??

Ill wait for any damage control.

Vesica_Prime

Don't be silly. Piracy doesn't exist on consoles.

/sarcasm now disabled.

Of course, when someone hacks their console with either a modchip or mastercode. They're clearly aiming to put Linux on their console, not play pirated games.

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

Of course, when someone hacks their console with either a modchip or mastercode. They're clearly aiming to put Linux on their console, not play pirated games.

True_Gamer_

*Funny futurama pic here*

You guys obviously don't understand the unlimited possibility that this huge feature offers to PS3 owners. I mean everything that works on your Windows or Mac PC, just MIGHT be able to POSSIBLY work on your PS3 with the help of Linux! The 0.001% of PS3 owners who gave a damn about Linux REALLY need this! You guys just don't even know. Low compatability, huge bugs, slow or no updates...you know everything that ran perfectly on your mediocre PC can now be ran from the PS3! Trust me guys, no one is gonna pirate games on the PS3. Have you even HEARD of the size of the Blu-Ray!? You can't ignore its gir...I mean the time it takes to download it.

Written by the GeoHotz is my Homeboy assoication.

/brb. Gonna shoot self in head for writing this. No you cannot have my stuff.

I know people who pirate theoccasionalgame, as I'm sure most of us do. They're not inherently bad people. They're not evil master criminals. They are, however, the reason why the PC market is so easily disregarded by the majority of publishers. PC gamers sit back and complain about howBulletstormis only getting a console demo, or how a roleplaying game has been "dumbed down" to make it simple enough for a controller. Who can honestly blame the publisher, though? If I were EA, I would actuallypullthe PC version ofCrysis 2right now.

I've tried to argue in the corner of pirates before, but screw it. It's not a corner that deserves to be fought in. I would, in fact, encourage developers to ignore the PC market altogether now. Sorry, but why should anybody support the platform? Sure, there are paying customers, and it would suck for them, but what kind of businessman would open a store in a city where stores are robbed multiple times a day? An idiotic businessman.

Link.

Harsh words.

Zune_HD