Divinity Original Sin 9

@Lulu_Lulu: Reviews and sales and general consensus are the closest we can ever come to objectively measuring release quality, so until you come up with a better solution you'll just have to accept it's excellent reception. But even by what limited objectivity we can use, it's undeniably a solid title. Limited on bugs, loads of content, and it runs well on lots of machines. Not trash at all frankly. And yes, a lot of the combat can be based on your statistics. Unlike transistor though combat is all turn-based. Tons of skill is helpful though, being properly prepped and positioned in fights can determine the outcome.

@Jeager_Titan

Its not just an Oppinion, Original Sin is stat driven. Thats a fact right ?

He says while going back to playing DA 2.

@Vaasman

I'm not saying they can't be objective. I'm saying you can't rely on them. They are unreliable, especially the GOTY awards, theres actually is no such the thing as "The Best Game" because you can't cross compare games over different genres and expect to emerge with an objective winner, its Apples and Oranges.

"....so until you come up with a better solution you'll just have to accept it's excellent reception."

This is a piss poor philosophy to have towards anything, if you don't have a proper solution then keep looking for one, the "its close enough" attitude won't get you far.... Or in this case, not far enough.

But its not your fault, as a human being its part of your DNA to try and fill in the blanks, some solution is better than no solution right ?

"Tons of skill is helpful though, being properly prepped and positioned in fights can determine the outcome."

Well that doesn't really say much. But then again getting into Specifics could take all day due to the game's complexity.

@Jeager_Titan

I love RPGs, I hate stats.... But since all RPGs are stat driven.....

As for video games.... What makes you think I hate them ? Or are you just generalizing.....

Numbers is only part of it. I see people crying that monsters even one level above them is too tough, but personally, I am fighting, and winning against enemies 4 levels above me? Enemies that mind you have far superior numbers to me dealing and being able to soak more damage. How do I win, through tactics, which includes stuff like positioning, usage of environment, shutting down the correct enemies. I win most battles taking negligable damage. Just because I play smart.

Bought it and installed it; still need to play it. Will likely dive into it this weekend.

@Lulu_Lulu: I am not going to bother with the philosophies involved in finding alternative scales because that's just stupid. By every possible measurement, objective or otherwise, worth any form of merit at all, it's a good game, just accept it man.

@Maroxad

The smart thing to do would be to raise your stats. and the only reason numbers are part of it is because AI is stupid, against a smarter opponent Numbers are everything.

Could you imagine a Chess RPG ? That would suck.

I agree. The modern cynicism and relativistic nihilism are just the common tools to negate the condition of general review consensus and sales as the current sole objective ways of analysing the reality of the market. Also, those are usually accompanied by no new proposition for a new system, thus negating also the benefitial aspects of nihilistic deconstruction. So it's only meant to impose the caos of opinions, which they regard as not subjective to evaluation (which is also a lie, although opinions must be respected, there are opinions that can be debunked as baseless). But mostly, that's what fanboys do and only when those criteria are against them (and the eventual user that absorbed that way of thinking).

@SambaLele

"....relativistic nihilism

....general review consensus.....benefitial aspects of

nihilistic deconstruction.....impose the caos of opinions....."

Grammaton Cleric ! ! ! :D

where the hell you have been ?

I fail to see how usage of environment, line of sight, positioning, combining spells for maximal efficiency, timing my spells to ensure minimal conflicts between them have anything to do with raising my stats. But no matter, this conversation couild be described in one image...

@Maroxad

Then what do you need the stats for ?

Anyway...Its very unlikely I'm ever going to play Original Sin, anyway, its not as bad as Dark Souls and its true to its own Identity.... I'l shut up now.... :)

Jesus, you console guys really aren't doing yourselves any favors. First it's complaints about having to read, and now we have people complaining about numbers/stats. No wonder you guys like simplistic third person cinematic shooters--anything else is just a bit too complicated apparently.

@cfisher2833

I hate simplistic cinematic 3rd Person Shooters and I hate my XBox 360...... I'm not a "console guy".... I only own one for Split Screen and I will be returning to PC when Microsoft drops support.

You sir are very Presumptiuous.

Stats are there to...

• Provide a sense of progression.
• Allow you to customise your own characters. To suit your own playstyle, as well as allow each new game to feel different from the last simply due to different characters who play differently. I restarted Divinity: Original Sin so many times, simply because I got new character concepts.
• Stats exist in the real world. I am never going to outrun a pro-athlete, low sex appeal means I will probably remain single, poor linguistics can make socialization hard
• Stats allow you to roleplay better. You know what hte first two letters of RPG stands for right?

I like my RPGs when they have a good balance between stats and player skill (mainly on the tactics side). Divinity: Original Sin does that balance really well.

^ Poor guy rolled a 3 on charisma.

@Maroxad

1) Because they can't progress otherwise ?

2) Theres other ways of doing that... Why stats specifically ?

3) The real world is not that abstract.

4) Stats are a Shortcut, They are an unecessary Abstraction of anyth Skill they are applied too. The concept of Role Playing in Games is extremely different from Role Playing everywhere else.

I like the idea of Role Playing but why the numbers ?

And Player Skill and Tactics are not mutally exclusive if thats what you were implying.

@Lulu_Lulu: Don't worry the console RPGs are simplified for people like you.

@BldgIrsh

Simplicity is the most precious thing to all of gaming. But Console RPGs are complicated trash no different from PC RPGs. I loved Mass Effect 3 and Dragon's Dogma though.... I'm also keeping a close eye on The Witcher, seems Promising.

@Vaasman On the bright side, it means I have a lot less women hitting on me... unless they have a fetish for shorter men. >.>

1. There are other ways, but for what RPGs tend to do and aim for, progression through stats make the most sense of the kind of game RPGs want to be.

2. Because stats do it better than most other customization methods. It is a tried and true formula.

3. Way to miss the point. The point is, some people do stuff better than others.

4. Roleplaying games are meant to simulate tabletop roleplaying games. Tabletop and Computer Roleplaying games tend to be more rigid and more employ more rules than other types of roleplaying games because that is what works best for these kinds of games. It also lets players set their strengths and weaknesses in easy to manage ways, which is pretty much the only thing that works when you follow a ruleset. It simply lets you give your characters strengths and weaknesses that the game can do something with.

I agree with Lulu: having greater control over how my character progresses in power and skill is just useless. It unnecessarily complicates the experience. I really wish mediocre RPGs like Dark Souls and Divinity could learn from true masterpieces like Skyrim and automate the entire role-playing aspect.

@Maroxad

1) That was before video games existed. RPGs Predate Computer games... More on that later.

2) Not in Video Games. In PnP games... Definately.

3) Bad points are always missed.

4) Role Playing Games are games in which you build and Define a character (usually by Abstraction). Thats the most concise and accurate Definition of RPGs.

So.. Stats.... As I mentioned earlier, RPGs predate electronic gaming so naturally coming up with the rules and gameplay present a very difficult challenge..... How would you determine each move and how effective it is ? How would you determine a character's profeciency at any skill ? And thus Crunching Numbers was born. It wasn't a choice.... There literally was no other way to do it. However now its 2014 and technology has allowed us to simulate gameplay that isn't tedious or missleading. So why are there still numbers ? It used to be the best for the state it was in then, I doubt thats the case anymore.

@princeofshapeir

It doesn't just complicate the experience... It ruins it. After a long search of going through many piece of crap RPGs, I Narrowed it down to 4 games, Dragon's Dogma was my top candidate so I bought it. And I was thoroughly satisfied, everytime you level up you instead of assigning numbers to meaningless attributes you get to customize your character in actual function, by choosing their skills, each one extremely different and unique and very very very Practical and doesn't depend on numbers at all, atleast thats what I thought at 1st.... 3 hours later I learned that it fell into typical RPG Stat Driven BullShit, only worse, since in Dragon's Dogma you're forbidden from touching your Character's Attributes so you can't Min Max them. $25 down the toilet.... And what pains me the most is they almost nailed it ! So close ! :(

and so my search continues......

Given your predilection against RPG's and frequently nonsensical posts, I'm going to go ahead and say you're not an appropriate authority on what is and is not best for the genre.

1. It worked best back then, and as it happens. It still works the best right now. It is also a lot easier to balance than giving players one perk point every level which has shown me only to be a massive balancing failure over and over again... not to mention the overspecialization: high strength will make me better with all melee weapons, make me throw further, allow me to wear heavy armor, carry a lot, ect vs all these perks will make me good at swinging swords, but I can only carry 5 potions before being overburdened and I am as good as a mage at using axes.
2. In both video games and PnP. In fact, it works even better in computer rpgs than PnP rpgs due to the fact that they are more rigid and allow for less human leeway.
3. I see no problem with the point. Stats (as in attributes) simulate innate abilities.
4. It is, and originally computer RPGs were designed to simulate the table top RPGs.

@Vaasman

I never claimed to be an authority. Its a well established genre... Crtisism should be expected especially if there is something genuinely wrong with the concept.

There are six stats in that game--HP, Stamina, Physical Attack, Physical Defense, Magical Attack, and Magical Defense--and they all scale passively as you level up with certain vocations. It should be obvious which vocations increase which stat. It's about the most basic, automated stat scaling system in an RPG, and it encourages you to play multiple vocations. There's really no number-crunching at all and the upgrade path for weapons/armor are totally linear (there are specific weapons and armor that are "the best in the game" for your vocation). I don't get why it's a bad system if you hate manually assigning stats.

This post is golly gee good. I like it it. You saved humanity.

Did this guy just call Dark Souls mediocre...............

Yeeeeah don't think I would ever get into this game much because of that. It good to see another successful kickstarter through.

@Maroxad

1) Yeah it doesn't really, especially in non-action scenarios particularly in conversations, when you have to persuade someone you do something by meeting the minimum stat requirements, funny enough the game most guilty of this is Planesape Torment. As for combat, theres no trick to it, be it action or turn based or realtime or even Card Games, its all numbers.... You put your highest offensive stats against your opponents stats which are most susceptible to it...... The End. Its what I do in Yugi Yoh, its what I do in Mass Effect, Its What I do in Child Of Light, its what I do in Final Fantasy.... Its what I'm suppose to do and I find it excrutiatingly tedious. Yeah sure you get other things like summonings and preventing your oponent from casting and a bunch of other distractions.

2) PvP.... Theres a reason why RPGs and PvP avoid each other if possible. You can tell how good or bad a system is by asking "what if it was another player instead", last thing you want in any game is "you won because you have better stats" so which is it ? do you want a game with a sense of progression where you keep leveling up and building a better a character or do you want a balanced game ? Don't Worry, the two are not mutually exclusive, but you guys don't take kindly to level scaling.

3) No.... Gameplay simulates abilities, Adding Role Playing Elements simulates the simulation of those abilities. Let me give you an Example, in Gears Of War the gameplay simulates shooting, in Mass Effect They Simulate that simulation of shooting by sliding extra stats into that like an Accuracy stat. In one game the only thing in between you and the game space is the controll interface, and in the other they slide an unnecessary stat in between you and the gamespace and the control interface. Don't get me wrong, there are stats in gears of war aswell but you don't need to know them and you can't change them, they are hidden for for a reason and its to present the player with Practical Strategies like positioning, flanking, scouting, advancing and even retreating things that you just cannot do on Pen and Paper, not numrerically optimized ones like most JRPGs.

4) Yeah, and they sucked it at it.

You remember that episode of big bang theory where sheldon added extra things to games ? Like Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock and Three extra pieces to chess ? Its unnecessary because it makes the game more complicated whilest actually reducing its Depth. RPGs are kinda like that. Complicated but Shallow, Games like Chess are Simple but Deep.... If you can follow that train of thought.

@princeofshapeir

Yeah I know.... But theres a **** ton of grinding.

....pretty sure that was intended as sarcasm.

Dark Souls does have poor design. It's a great game, better than any of the shit Bioware has made... but it does have poor design. No getting around it.

I have no idea why I am feeding you but...

1a) That is more of an issue with the dialogue system than the existance of stats. Having a stat check alone is poor design, what should also factor into it is relationship with the NPC and possibly some RNG too. Divinity has relationships with NPCs and in the speech minigame, there is a bit of RNG too, your approach affecting your chance of success.

1b) That is more of an issue with a poorly thought out battle system. In Divnity: Original Sin, my tactics seldomly take numbers into account, instead the main things going on in my head when in combat are Line of Sight/Action Points/Enemy, Ally and Friendly positions and distances from eachother/what abilities I can use. I dont even know my characters stats all that well.

2) A good battle system does not necessarily have to be good for competitive gaming. A good battle system needs to be good for what it tries to do, if a game is designed around PvP it should take advantage of PvP's strenghts, if the game is designed around PvE it should be designed around PvE's strengths. Some games have combat systems that are terrible in single player campaigns, but work great in multiplayer and vice versa. We dont take kindly to level scaling because it destroys progression. What makes progression satisfying is moving up in the world in relation to your enemies, with level scaling everyone moves up when you do, so what is the point? I dont want complete balance, not every fight is supposed to be fair in RPGs, Attempts at making the games as balanced with every fight as fair as possible has been a detriment to the genre, The fact that I have been constantly been putting up against unfair odds has made Divinity: Original Sin a much more entertaining game.

3) How are you going to simulate a character who runs fast without stats to back it up, especially in a party based game where you control multiple characters? And really, you cant have elements like flanking, positioning, retreating, scouting in tabletop RPGs (In Divinity I do all of those save for scouting)? What P&P games have you been playing? And while I am at it, Gears of War does not simulate shooting, Gears of War simulates this,

4) And yet, they handled it better than pretty much any modern RPG.

Stats are bad when they are tacked on, and dont really add to the core design of the game (which is where your Big Bang theory example comes in). Thankfully this does not apply to Original Sin.

But nothing is wrong with the concept.

People absolutely love playing with stats and skills, love playing with numbers, love character building, love a measurable progression. If they didn't, RPG's would have ceased to include leveling and economy a long time ago.

If it isn't your cup of tea, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it isn't great for other people. What you're doing is much less a criticism and much more getting upset about people liking and playing what you don't like and play.

@Vaasman

Sorry mate.... People loving something doesn't make it perfect. which was never point, I never once claimed people don't like it.....

As for your other argument, I actually like RPGs, I just don't like imbalance. You don't pay attention to my argument and thats okay I guess....

You claimed there's something wrong with it, which there isn't. You just think so because you don't like it.

And no, far more of your argument is whining about stats than balance of gameplay elements.

@Maroxad

1a) Actually the simple Stat Check is better than a random decider, atleast its consistant. Persuasion is not a numerical endevour, and you know whats funny, RPGs tried to fix something that was never broken. Heavy Rain, LA Noire and Beyond Two Souls have a much better grasp of how conversations work alot more than Any Dialogue System any RPG has ever implemented.

1b) Neither do I most of the time, all I need to know is I have higher numbers than they do.

2) Battle is competitive wether your opponent is another human being or a brain dead. Balance and Fainess still matter I find it rather insulting to take part in a challenge that isn't balanced whether its an advantage or not, I just find it Condesending winning that way.

As for Level Scaling, you said you wanted a "sense" of progression, level scaling doesn't take that away, if you're willing to suspend belief and let RNG effect the dialogue in your games then you can most definately do the same for level scaling. I've mentioned many times before that you don't need to make a good game to make a good RPG. Balance and Gameplay are definately a must for a game to be good, but RPGs... Not so much, how else does one explain Mass Effect and Skyrim.

"The fact that I have been constantly been putting up against unfair odds has made Divinity: Original Sin a much more entertaining game."

Thats because the AI is retarded..... think you'd still win if there was another human being on the opposite end ?

3) Thats actually the only hiccup in my crusade against stats, how do you control multiple characters ? Well sir, I don't have a f#cking clue ! No really, I got nothing for that one. Its because Strategy games are uncharted Territory for me, I'l get back to you on that when I hop back into PC Gaming and educate myself, but for now the only solution I have to offer is... CO-OP, I ,mean thats originally how these games were played right ?

As for Gears Of War.... Go ahead and try whack a moling people online, its only that simplistic in its campaign against an AI that doesn'tmake use of the space when there is space, however you'l never get away with this strategy only, atleast not against me. Another thing I like about gears of war is that it has playable monsters, which I thought was kinda cool, I've always wondered how Boomers and Wretches play.

@Vaasman

Wrong way around... I don't like it because theres something wrong with it.

The gameplay is Stat Driven..... sooooo......

How intensely conceited of you.

@Vaasman

Thank You ! :)

1a) What I was arguing for was a stat check COMBINED RNG and relations modifiers. Heavy Rain, LA Snore and Beyond: Two Souls are adventure games, and put you in the shoes of a preset character, thus with a different core design. Stat checks are there because not everyone is a good spokesman. Like I said before, poor linguistics or social skills can make socialization harder for some and this is what speech skills are meant to represent. Ask a person to play golf with you, on one day he might want to play with you, the other he may not want to, whether he may not want to dephends on how good of a job you did at convincing him, how much he likes you, his mood, his current situation and so on. The RNG bit fills in the bolded bits, it also makes dialogue less predictable.
1b) Good luck playing Divinity then. For most of the time your numbers will be LOWER than the enemy's.
2) I got news for you then, not every fight is fair, that is life. It also happens in the real world too. But the fact that not every fight is fair is part of the appeal of RPGs. And yes, the progression is destroyed. To word it out and make it simple for someone like you to understand. In a level scaled RPG, I can go and kill dragons and take out the king at level 1, there is never any danger anywhere since every foe is balanced around my current power level. In an RPG without level scaling (take Mount&Blade, yes I know that the quantity scales but enemy power does not, and even there the power curve is insignificant compared to yours), you start the game fighting bandits, because the militia may be too tough for you, as you progress and get stronger, you are able to do quests for the nobility of the land, and you keep getting stronger and stronger, eventually your army will be able to join actual battles with lords and not make utter fools out of yourselves. Eventually you will be strong enough to take on armies 1 on 1, and after that, you will be able to challenge kings, this is followed by being strong enough to be able to take a town or castle for yourself and form your own nation, then defend it against the armies that want to take it back, and that is what you can do without any form of level scaling. And while I am at it, Mass Effect and Skyrim are terrible games and even worse RPGs, Mass Effect is a whac-a-mole style shooter and Skyrim is an Action Adventure. As for the AI, in Divinity: Original Sin is considerably smarter than the AI I have seen in any ARPG. It is not as smart as a human of course, but smarter than the AI in Mass Effect, Skyrim or any Dragon Age game.
3) I hate to burst your bubble, but your entire crusade against stats are filled with hiccups and holes, whether or not you want to realize it.

@Maroxad

1 a) My argument was never with Original Sin specifically, its with the entire genre so yeah I picked an example from outside, there was really no other way, anyway having a preset character has nothing to do with it, my issue is with how the Dialogue Systems work underneath the facade.

Yeah and that works just fine for Simulating Real Life but I'l fall back on my usual point that what makes for good Role Playing doesn't make for a good game, in most Role Playing games you don't have to clear any of the Stat Checks to be able to complete the game. But the ending that requires you to pass those checks is better yes it MUST BE BETTER becasuse players are not going to take kindly to dump all their their stats into speech skills only to be greeted with a shitty ending, its the last thing you want after 200 hours of gameplay. So what if its predictable ? If youwant to persuade fictional character for any reason at all then so be it... Also if you suck at something then learn and Practice, why do you want to spoonfed accomplishments ? video games are the best teaching tool at our disposal theres even a whole seperate study about it, Its called Gamification. One thing that makes me sad is it feels like I'm the only one who finds it Patronizing to Persuade a a Character or win a battle Battle by numbers instead of actual skill, I find it Patronizing that a game lures me into believing I've progressed when I actually haven't. RPGs reward quantity, you level up by doing something over and over again regardless of how well you're doing it, it literally doesn't understand the difference between earning 5000 Xp from a boss fight or earning earning 50 Xp each from 100 weaker enemies.

1b) I'm pretty determined, if the game will let me then I will grind to get those numbers, if there is a way I guarantee you I'l find it and abuse it. You know the type of person who complains about something being too powerfull yet doesn't hesitate to exploit it.... Thats me ! I will bitch all day and night about The Blue Shell but I'l use it without skipping a beat, hell I've been known to exploit and complain simultaneously. Theres a word for it, Its not hypocrisy but its pretty close.

2) "I got news for you then, not every fight is fair, that is life. It also happens in the real world too."

I got news for you, If I wanted reality I wouldn't be playing Video Games now would I ?

"I can go and kill dragons and take out the

king at level 1, there is never any danger anywhere since every foe is balanced around my current

power level."

Good, now developers will have ample incentive to make better gameplay mechanics more challenging AI, one that can beat you by the same rules you are bound to Mass Efftect is slowly heading in this direction its been improving with each game, stats begin to matter less and less, Have you ever played a fighting game ? Or played chess against a Computer ? Its awesome !

3) My Crusade is solid... Its me whos the bumbling idiot who struggles at trying to prove it, but those are the rules, "One who presents and argument must bear the burden of proof." Although it would be nice if you helped me out alil bit.

1a) This thread is still about Original Sin. Which is why I keep bringing the game up. Also, a good game is a game that does a good job being at what it tries to do. As for suddenly needing speech skill check to get the good ending in the end, that is more of a problem of bad game design than stats being flawed (which they arent). Roleplaying games are supposed to be escapism, so players who are not very good with words can be that master diplomat they always wanted to be, or that excellent ninja or whatever.

1b) You can't grind in Original Sin. Enemies dont respawn and both enemies and XP are finite.

2) Comparing a fighting game and chess to a roleplaying game is stupid. The fighting game and strategy game are designed to be competitive between 2 players, the roleplaying game is designed to be escapism allowing you to create and define a role for you to fill into, and as it happens, stats are a part of what makes you be able to define that very role. It allows players who got bad reflexes have excellent reflexes in a fantasy world. Wanna see the world through the eyes of a complete and utter moron? Play Fallout 1 or 2 with 3 intelligence or less. Stats are there to help define your character and they do a good job of that, adapting to the limitations of a more rigid rules driven system.

Edit: I am not arguing for that every game needs stats. In fact I am heavily opposed to that, however stats fit into the design of RPGs like divnity: original sin really well. It does not however... belong in a shooter like Gears of War, nor does it belong in strategy games that are designed to be purely about strategy nor does it belong in fighting games whose enjoyment dephends on balance and it being even ground. However, an RPG is not a shooter, nor is it a strategy game, nor is it a fighing game. Complaining about the stat heavy nature of RPGs is like complaining about citruses being sour.

@Maroxad

1a) I get that, but I get the sense that this is the laziest form of escapism. The Laziest and The most insulting.

1b) Thats very unfortunate. Its my go to strategy. :(

2) Then RPGs are simply not games (Its a bold statement and one I do not make lightly), more like simulations and even under that category they are not good at that either.

I'm all for diversity but all but there are boundries, no concept should escape critism because it intended for a specific result.

I don't have a cool friend who wants to play this game so I'd have to play it alone... Hesitant to buy it because I know it would have been so much cooler if my brother was into this kind of game. (He dislikes all turn based videogames.)

@KungfuKitten: Hmm, if only there were some sort of community of other gamers who would love to play all sorts games too. A... spot for games, if you will. :D