DVD9 is an issue according to Rockstar

[QUOTE="fun-da-mental"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
And those two games being entirely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread. The PS3 version of RDR requires an install. My point has always been, DVD9 drive >>> Blu-ray drive when read speed comes into play... no matter how much greater storage it offers.

HuusAsking

Again , PS3 didn't mandate the Install, Developer did. Why? probably because PS3 has HD on all models 360 doesn't. Installs helps loading faster. Ever wonder why nearly all PC games requires HD installs?

Because the HDD is there to be a tool for devs to use, and has the added benefit of storing the owners media and stuff. They should use it if they need to, and if they don't why make an optional install?

Installs were added to the 360 to slow the pattern of the thing breaking, not to make the game run better, though that is an added benefit.

[QUOTE="def_mode"] I'm basically saying space limitations caused dlcIronBass

Any DLC in particular?def_mode

[QUOTE="def_mode"]Any DLC in particular?IronBass

if MS could have predicted the future.

game installs + a standard, and very large HDD would have been their solution.

ah well, they can always make the one disc install-only. flash drives are now an option and I'd bet most 360s have a HDD.

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="def_mode"]Any DLC in particular?def_mode

[QUOTE="shadow8585"]Multiple disks? Problem solvedrazgriz_101

really bugs continuity with a open world game though thats the problem you cant pull a mass effect.Imagine having to go from say hypothetically island to island but you get a message up on the bridge please insert disk 2.Cause im pretty sure R*N will be wanting to go even bigger and flashier like they did with GTA last gen.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="shadow8585"]Multiple disks? Problem solvedSaltyMeatballs

really bugs continuity with a open world game though thats the problem you cant pull a mass effect.Imagine having to go from say hypothetically island to island but you get a message up on the bridge please insert disk 2.Cause im pretty sure R*N will be wanting to go even bigger and flashier like they did with GTA last gen.

in this day and age, we cannot replicate data;)

good point though, had not thought of that.

actually...the DLC version of EFLC used the GTA IV disc....it's been done, neat.

[QUOTE="def_mode"]

[QUOTE="IronBass"] Recently, RE5's versus mode and BioShock 2's Sinclair Solutions pack.IronBass

It hasn't been too much of a problem this gen. When they sellmillions of games on the 360 I'm sure when they look at their paychecks they are saying, "DVD9 sure sucks man". :roll:

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"][QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

really bugs continuity with a open world game though thats the problem you cant pull a mass effect.Imagine having to go from say hypothetically island to island but you get a message up on the bridge please insert disk 2.Cause im pretty sure R*N will be wanting to go even bigger and flashier like they did with GTA last gen.

HavocV3

in this day and age, we cannot replicate data;)

good point though, had not thought of that.

actually...the DLC version of EFLC used the GTA IV disc....it's been done, neat.

there are theories and there are facts and it's funny when you take a just released game (from the guys who complained about limited storage) as an example.

Red Dead Redemption on 360: 720p

Red Dead Redemption on ps3: 640p

open world game, 3 years after the article and GTA IV, still using a DVD9, still looking better on 360.

so much for bluray helping developers, graphics and other crap like that.

And yet from what I'm hearing the Ps3 version of RDR is inferior. Why don't they focus on making both versions equal before complaining about a certain format.

Chutebox

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

And yet from what I'm hearing the Ps3 version of RDR is inferior. Why don't they focus on making both versions equal before complaining about a certain format.

savagetwinkie

[QUOTE="def_mode"]Any DLC in particular?IronBass

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

And yet from what I'm hearing the Ps3 version of RDR is inferior. Why don't they focus on making both versions equal before complaining about a certain format.

savagetwinkie

Make a second disd, or allow the extra disc to be installed onto peoples hard drives and play from the 1st - it's not a difficult situation. It's hardly that big of an issue - look at the recent example of Red Dead Redemption, both versions virtually identical.Ravensmash

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="Chutebox"]

And yet from what I'm hearing the Ps3 version of RDR is inferior. Why don't they focus on making both versions equal before complaining about a certain format.

SaltyMeatballs

Technically speaking I do, i know enough that i don't know how the dev's make their engine and how it could lend itself to the 360 more or to the ps3 more. Regardless of processing power, their are differences in perfomance, on what your using, so a simple one ram. The 360 has slightly more ram to work with just because the ps3's operating system takes up more space, this could lead to really subtle differerences. Its a fact if a dev uses every little bit of ram on the 360 they'll have to take a few things out or compress them to fit it in the ps3. So its completely possible to use one consoles strengths and that doesn't translate 1 to 1 on the other.

And the way the streaming works in gta would suck if they split up the city, if they split up the city then goign to different areas would cause disc swapping. So the content you would want to split up are the 1 time use things, like cutscenes and other story related assets only seen once. But what happens if the game world gets big enough to fill 1 dvd 9. Then you have a problem, either you split up the game world or..... well thats the only thing you can do, and disc swapping during a high speed chase would be epic fail!

also dvd vs blu ray only effect how much initial content is delivered on 1 disc and how fast it can be loaded off that disc. Once its loaded performance is completely based off all the other system parts.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"][QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] its likely not that much inferior, and the technology of their engine much just work better with 360, but they could go beyond the capacity of a dvd9 content wise if the 360 had a bluray player. Its not a performnce issue with blu ray, just how much they can pack in. Also a game like gta and rdr won't work well on multiple discs, you'd have to shove the entire world on each disc, so what if the entire world took up 1 disc, all of a sudden multiple discs wouldn't work because each new disc still wouldn't have room for story content.savagetwinkie

Technically speaking I do, i know enough that i don't know how the dev's make their engine and how it could lend itself to the 360 more or to the ps3 more. Regardless of processing power, their are differences in perfomance, on what your using, so a simple one ram. The 360 has slightly more ram to work with just because the ps3's operating system takes up more space, this could lead to really subtle differerences. Its a fact if a dev uses every little bit of ram on the 360 they'll have to take a few things out or compress them to fit it in the ps3. So its completely possible to use one consoles strengths and that doesn't translate 1 to 1 on the other.

And the way the streaming works in gta would suck if they split up the city, if they split up the city then goign to different areas would cause disc swapping. So the content you would want to split up are the 1 time use things, like cutscenes and other story related assets only seen once. But what happens if the game world gets big enough to fill 1 dvd 9. Then you have a problem, either you split up the game world or..... well thats the only thing you can do, and disc swapping during a high speed chase would be epic fail!

also dvd vs blu ray only effect how much initial content is delivered on 1 disc and how fast it can be loaded off that disc. Once its loaded performance is completely based off all the other system parts.

install game on hdd and you won't need to spllit up the game.

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]Make a second disd, or allow the extra disc to be installed onto peoples hard drives and play from the 1st - it's not a difficult situation. It's hardly that big of an issue - look at the recent example of Red Dead Redemption, both versions virtually identical.Rockman999

install game on hdd and you won't need to spllit up the game.

bandicoot89

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Given that USB support has been added to the 360, developers shouldn't be "developing to the lowest common denominator" anymore. That and they aren't complaining about the PS3's drive speed and how it requires a mandatory install for that same game?

fun-da-mental

PS3 doesn't require mandatory install. Haven't you played GOW3 or Uncharted2? Its a developer choice that they use HD install to minimize the load time of optimal drives.

If it needs a solution to fix, MS will make it a profitable one. They put themselves in the right position all of the time. Don't give the people the best technology from the start. Then what would you need "fixing" if there's nothing superior to it?

I answered that already, look it up. I said I have no idea, but you yourself don't know it either. Numerous developers stated that disc space was an issue with DVD9 and who knows games like Alan Wake and Splinter Cell Conviction could of been longer. I am sure that there are games out there that suffered from limited disk space. Not only in the content department but in graphics and audio as well. Not to mention the other features. def_mode

If MS had any sanity left in them they'd let publishers make HDD-only games. Customers have to buy HDDs if they want to play certain games, and publishers are no longer limited by the arcade business model. Of course, MS will never do that because it makes too much sense.Timstuff

It does not make sense at all. :?

How many 360 games have actually needed more than one disc? Very few.

Limiting your potential sales by making HDD-only games would be a terrible "solution" for a such a small problem.

If MS had any sanity left in them they'd let publishers make HDD-only games. Customers have to buy HDDs if they want to play certain games, and publishers are no longer limited by the arcade business model. Of course, MS will never do that because it makes too much sense.Timstuff

[QUOTE="def_mode"]I answered that already, look it up. I said I have no idea, but you yourself don't know it either. Numerous developers stated that disc space was an issue with DVD9 and who knows games like Alan Wake and Splinter Cell Conviction could of been longer. I am sure that there are games out there that suffered from limited disk space. Not only in the content department but in graphics and audio as well. Not to mention the other features. IronBass

How would you know that DVD wasnt an issue? How would you know that they didnt cut pieces off the game to make it fit on the DVD? def_mode

Point is, no one knows, we all speculate here. we are not the developers and we barely have any idea what we are talking about. At the end of the day, having more space opens up possibilities, opportunities and potential for developers to make games. If a GTA4 developer and other developers said the disc space was an issue then it really is an issue, regardless of what or how they distribute the downloadable contents.def_mode

I used Alan Wake as an example, why? just wait till they release a bunch of DLCsdef_mode

If itwas an issue, howcome the game looks so much better and crisper on 360 ?

Point is, no one knows, we all speculate here. we are not the developers and we barely have any idea what we are talking about. At the end of the day, having more space opens up possibilities, opportunities and potential for developers to make games. If a GTA4 developer and other developers said the disc space was an issue then it really is an issue, regardless of what or how they distribute the downloadable contents.def_mode

I used Alan Wake as an example, why? just wait till they release a bunch of DLCsdef_mode

If itwas an issue, howcome the game looks so much better and crisper on 360 ?

theseekar

i only stated that it was a factor that may caused it.def_mode

[QUOTE="def_mode"]i only stated that it was a factor that may caused it.IronBass

and we were also unable to find a strong evidence that limited disc space wasnt a factor.def_mode

Yeah, only the fact that the mentioned games were made on a single DVD. ;)

[QUOTE="Ringx55"]They might get bluray nexxt gen...?starwarsjunky

Even worse: MS might charge for a 2nd and/or 3rd disc.Bazooka_4ME

Microsoft could just allow games being installed and we'd be good. a single dvd9 is really not quite enough anymore and open world games on multiple discs would be crazy

a single dvd9 is really not quite enough anymore pitty8982

Also games like RDR look a host better on DVD as it seems, they are totally blurry and with things pop up on PS3 and the slowerBlu ray

People who defend dvd9 are just upset that their console isn't blu-ray ready.

Seriously why are you flaming blu-ray

-More space= More stuff= better graphics

-Reads blu-ray movies

Only negative is the 10m install.... So what?

If you replay a game 5 times and lert say you gotta swap discs 4 times every playthrough and it takes 30 seconds to do it 30x4= 120= 2 minutes per playthrough and since you replay it 5 times 5x2= 10 minutes.

Once again sony is THINKING AHEAD and getting the bad part over with

Like their ps3. They added a bunch of crap. took a loss got it over with so later on they can make something really great.

Same with 10m install. Get it over with now. Plus you can go eat LUNCH while it installs. Seriously people come on now.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="shadow8585"]Multiple disks? Problem solvedSaltyMeatballs

really bugs continuity with a open world game though thats the problem you cant pull a mass effect.Imagine having to go from say hypothetically island to island but you get a message up on the bridge please insert disk 2.Cause im pretty sure R*N will be wanting to go even bigger and flashier like they did with GTA last gen.

but at the same time yes its been done but at the same time its a complete pain in the arse, and we have moved on a lot since the days of like FFVII cause if say R* feel limited in scope by their media they probably are right.Disk swapping in a game like GTA would have a vast load of issues like you would need multiple versions of the music files,ped's,all the city,ad certain soundbites for all the cars making it an extremely hard job to cram in all the voice acting, cut scenes and all that on top of the base.It would need to be compressed to extremes i think.

Thats why this gen even tho blu-ray has the lower read speed its got a slight tacticl advantage if a dev was wanting to go BIG.

[QUOTE="pitty8982"]a single dvd9 is really not quite enough anymore IronBass

Why are you even arguing about this? Things change as it progresses. From betamax to VHS to CD to DVDs. It is all a trend. def_mode

I haven't said a single DVD will be enough forever. It's quite obvious that more space will be needed. My point is that right now it's not.

Developers themselves has stated that DVD9 lacks space. def_mode

Declarations are that, declarations. The facts are with me.

Very, very few360 gamesneed more than one DVD (less than 7, IIRC).

People who defend dvd9 are just upset that their console isn't blu-ray ready.

Seriously why are you flaming blu-ray

-More space= More stuff= better graphics

-Reads blu-ray movies

Only negative is the 10m install.... So what?

If you replay a game 5 times and lert say you gotta swap discs 4 times every playthrough and it takes 30 seconds to do it 30x4= 120= 2 minutes per playthrough and since you replay it 5 times 5x2= 10 minutes.

Once again sony is THINKING AHEAD and getting the bad part over with

Like their ps3. They added a bunch of crap. took a loss got it over with so later on they can make something really great.

Same with 10m install. Get it over with now. Plus you can go eat LUNCH while it installs. Seriously people come on now.

BioDogshock

its even a good time to flick through a manual for info like controls.Or my personal fav pick up my nearest musical instrument and just jam until i hear the bleep or w/e indicates the install is over,also its 10min its not like its 3h or something xD.

-More space= More stuff= better graphics

BioDogshock

That is onyl a tiny part of the truth and whole picture though, since you have to fit those moretextures in memory, so you dont get better graphics per scene, just more variety in the game, but each screen has to load a statndard ammount of textures in memory, so even if you have 300GB textures, you can only see 500MB at each frame, meaning you wont see anything better than 360, the only difference is that when 360 would fit a DVD with different areas, PS3 could pack more unique textures/areas in there

WOuld make ZERO difference in the looks of the graphics though

That is why RDR looks so much worst on PS3, blurry, more pop up, less foliage, lower resolution, worst shadows etc etc, even though it is on Blu Ray, space makes zero difference in the graphics quality, only in variety