EA: No Modding Tools With Battlefield 3

If you read this link its got a decent reasoning.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/05/battlefield-3-dev-we-are-not-going-to-make-any-modding-tools/

combine that with what has already been said about how frostbite itself is designed it seems more than plausible, also the hermits whining bout milking should really look back on BC2 getting extra free maps later into its lifespan just around the time vietnam was released which itself was a fairly comprehensive addon and i would say fairly priced.

If the engine isnt really got any suitable way of supporting a dev kit then thats the way the cookie crumbles, the only reason a lot of games get dev kits is usually because they run on middleware engines for example the likes of UE3 and ID tech so the documentation is readily available in most cases.Same goes for bethesda much like infinity ward they run off modified middleware.

If the way the frostbite engine itself has been designed means that they cant really throw a dev kit then so be it, man up get over it its not going to massively affect your end enjoyment of the game mind you some people are just never happy.

razgriz_101

There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.

When it comes to the quality of the end product, the significance of mods are overrated time and time again.tomarlyn

Oblivion sucked on it's own and mods made it an AAA product.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

If you read this link its got a decent reasoning.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/05/battlefield-3-dev-we-are-not-going-to-make-any-modding-tools/

combine that with what has already been said about how frostbite itself is designed it seems more than plausible, also the hermits whining bout milking should really look back on BC2 getting extra free maps later into its lifespan just around the time vietnam was released which itself was a fairly comprehensive addon and i would say fairly priced.

If the engine isnt really got any suitable way of supporting a dev kit then thats the way the cookie crumbles, the only reason a lot of games get dev kits is usually because they run on middleware engines for example the likes of UE3 and ID tech so the documentation is readily available in most cases.Same goes for bethesda much like infinity ward they run off modified middleware.

If the way the frostbite engine itself has been designed means that they cant really throw a dev kit then so be it, man up get over it its not going to massively affect your end enjoyment of the game mind you some people are just never happy.

AdrianWerner

There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.

Specifically he talks bout destruction, they probably have to design the map in certain ways to actually get it looking plausible without looking buggy and silly.If its problems with how the game does destruction its more than likely plausible as to why there wont be mod tools.It seem more like beef with how the engine handles things and how its designed.

Its not laziness as you like to cry either.Mind you hermits/lems/cows look for anyway of taking jabs at a developer when they dont massage their egos.

Specifically he talks bout destruction, they probably have to design the map in certain ways to actually get it looking plausible without looking buggy and silly.If its problems with how the game does destruction its more than likely plausible as to why there wont be mod tools.It seem more like beef with how the engine handles things and how its designed.

Its not laziness as you like to cry either.Mind you hermits/lems/cows look for anyway of taking jabs at a developer when they dont massage their egos.

razgriz_101

Specifically he talks bout destruction, they probably have to design the map in certain ways to actually get it looking plausible without looking buggy and silly.If its problems with how the game does destruction its more than likely plausible as to why there wont be mod tools.It seem more like beef with how the engine handles things and how its designed.

Its not laziness as you like to cry either.Mind you hermits/lems/cows look for anyway of taking jabs at a developer when they dont massage their egos.

razgriz_101

It's pretty much confirmed destruction is not dynamic. Modders can make similar, and possibly even better desutrction with PhysX (which anyone with Maya/3DSMax can get the tools for PhysX and APEX for free.)

They gave us mod tools for Battlefield 2 and that spawned great things. Many great things. DICE is supposed to love the modding community also. Damn right they're gonna be upset over this. Then as others have said. ARMA 3 is next year and RO2 is next month.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

Specifically he talks bout destruction, they probably have to design the map in certain ways to actually get it looking plausible without looking buggy and silly.If its problems with how the game does destruction its more than likely plausible as to why there wont be mod tools.It seem more like beef with how the engine handles things and how its designed.

Its not laziness as you like to cry either.Mind you hermits/lems/cows look for anyway of taking jabs at a developer when they dont massage their egos.

AdrianWerner

Do you work for dice? have you used their dev tools?

how the hell are we supposed to know the nature of thier tools/setups.Its not fair to calll a developer lazy cause they wont pander to a minority.

Do you work for dice? have you used their dev tools?

how the hell are we supposed to know the nature of thier tools/setups.Its not fair to calll a developer lazy cause they wont pander to a minority.

razgriz_101

IMO, that still means it's DICE's fault for creating an overly complex engine. BF3 is going to be an amazing game but I don't think it's going to be that advanced that modders couldn't use it.

Pretty ironic when their whole idea for starting the modern combat/ BF2 thing and the modern setting shooter as a whole was probably thanks to Desert Combat, a mod for BF1942.

Do you work for dice? have you used their dev tools?

how the hell are we supposed to know the nature of thier tools/setups.Its not fair to calll a developer lazy cause they wont pander to a minority.

razgriz_101

And not pandering to minority is laziness, they just don't think it's worth their effort. That's what it is. Everything else is excuses.

Och well...DICE stopped being real pc-friendly dev a long time ago. The fact that such devs at least offers improved graphics and scale in PC version is a reason to be happy enough. Expecting them to give pc community full support like they used to would be pretty naive I guess.

Someone'll develope a 3rd party program calm down guys

Someone'll develope a 3rd party program calm down guys

DmadFearmonger

Och well...DICE stopped being real pc-friendly dev a long time ago.

AdrianWerner

Yeah, since they made the BC series their mod support in the game engine went down the hill.

Speaking of modding tools there is this Star wars mod for Cod 4 that just released (skip to 1:20). Anyone tried it? I might give it a shot.

When it comes to the quality of the end product, the significance of mods are overrated time and time again.tomarlyn

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Och well...DICE stopped being real pc-friendly dev a long time ago.

Yeah, since they made the BC series their mod support in the game engine went down the hill.

Speaking of modding tools there is this Star wars mod for Cod 4 that just released (skip to 1:20). Anyone tried it? I might give it a shot.

so does this mean there will be no crap mod servers? thank God

so does this mean there will be no crap mod servers? thank God

Harisemo

Shame.I'm sure a lot of people were excited to make mods for this game.

This is easily a business decision. EA wants to keep the engine internal, simple as that. Also they want to release DLC. DICE has nothing to do with this. If it were up to dice, there would be mod support like all of the previous games (except the console-focused BC series).

It's not laziness. For all who say that, you've clearly not programmed a single line of code in your life and really have no right to say anything on the matter.

And there goes my hope for a BF3 PR mod. Thanks DICE! Bring on the 15$ map-packs instead!1!1!one1!.. Pft

Shame.I'm sure a lot of people were excited to make mods for this game.

Lto_thaG

No. A lot of hardcore PC people just want the Project Reality team to work their asses off to put a mod out. These same people will also whine every week that the mod isn't out if there is mod tools.

Mod tools usually mean tons of free content for gamers at the expense of other people's time and effort. They don't care, they want free stuff. They believe they are entitled to free stuff. When they don't get their free stuff and have to pay for people's hard work like everybody else, they complain.

The argument usually is "well PC games have always had mod support." That was long before it cost tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to make game engines. Mod tools don't just take time and effort to make, they have to be supported and maintained as the engine changes over time. This is a running cost that they make no money from.

[QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

Shame.I'm sure a lot of people were excited to make mods for this game.

Wasdie

No. A lot of hardcore PC people just want the Project Reality team to work their asses off to put a mod out. These same people will also whine every week that the mod isn't out if there is mod tools.

Mod tools usually mean tons of free content for gamers at the expense of other people's time and effort. They don't care, they want free stuff. They believe they are entitled to free stuff. When they don't get their free stuff and have to pay for people's hard work like everybody else, they complain.

The argument usually is "well PC games have always had mod support." That was long before it cost tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to make game engines. Mod tools don't just take time and effort to make, they have to be supported and maintained as the engine changes over time. This is a running cost that they make no money from.

Even if the tools are hard to use there's nothing stopping them from releasing them anyway. Running on in-house engine doesn't stop many devs from releasing their tools to public, even if they're hard to use.

There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.

AdrianWerner

You never publish your internal tools. That's a basic business practice. "Oh here Activision, we made this kick ass engine, you guys can have it. Please don't use it to build up a separate engine with similar features!"

Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this. You have no idea how software development works on any level if you think this is them just being lazy. Mod tools require a separate program with a lot of control on exactly what the people can do with their engine. You don't make your engine open source, that's just stupid. Once the mod tools are out, you need support, and documentation, and you must update them as the engine progresses. Even if it is minimal support, it still takes time away from the development team for other things.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Even if the tools are hard to use there's nothing stopping them from releasing them anyway. Running on in-house engine doesn't stop many devs from releasing their tools to public, even if they're hard to use.

There's no reason for no mod support for BF3 besides devs' own laziness and/or need to sell more DLC. Sure, they don't have any obligation to do otherwise, but let's not make up excuses that make their actions look better than what they are. Especially since DICE didn; even release any tools for Mirror's Edge, which was running on UE3.0.

Wasdie

You never publish your internal tools. That's a basic business practice. "Oh here Activision, we made this kick ass engine, you guys can have it. Please don't use it to build up a separate engine with similar features!"

Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this. You have no idea how software development works on any level if you think this is them just being lazy. Mod tools require a separate program with a lot of control on exactly what the people can do with their engine. You don't make your engine open source, that's just stupid. Once the mod tools are out, you need support, and documentation, and you must update them as the engine progresses. Even if it is minimal support, it still takes time away from the development team for other things.

No. A lot of hardcore PC people just want the Project Reality team to work their asses off to put a mod out. These same people will also whine every week that the mod isn't out if there is mod tools.

Mod tools usually mean tons of free content for gamers at the expense of other people's time and effort. They don't care, they want free stuff. They believe they are entitled to free stuff. When they don't get their free stuff and have to pay for people's hard work like everybody else, they complain.

The argument usually is "well PC games have always had mod support." That was long before it cost tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to make game engines. Mod tools don't just take time and effort to make, they have to be supported and maintained as the engine changes over time. This is a running cost that they make no money from.

Wasdie

Oh get off your high horse Wasdie. You think some of these games would sell anywhere near what they did, if they didn't have modding communities to keep the games fresh? There are people who consider Oblivion unplayable without mods. Even I did my own little tweaking to balance out what I deemed to be badly done skill level rates.

It's not a purely charitable decision on the developers part, to allow gamers to act as a unpaid content production workforce for their games. Removing mod support just ensures that games end up on the discount pile quicker, because they have nothing new to offer.

Honestly... you make it sound like mod support is a pure cost for the developers, with gamers just being parasites wanting something for nothing. Content creators enjoy the recognition they get for their mods.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

No. A lot of hardcore PC people just want the Project Reality team to work their asses off to put a mod out. These same people will also whine every week that the mod isn't out if there is mod tools.

Mod tools usually mean tons of free content for gamers at the expense of other people's time and effort. They don't care, they want free stuff. They believe they are entitled to free stuff. When they don't get their free stuff and have to pay for people's hard work like everybody else, they complain.

The argument usually is "well PC games have always had mod support." That was long before it cost tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to make game engines. Mod tools don't just take time and effort to make, they have to be supported and maintained as the engine changes over time. This is a running cost that they make no money from.

AnnoyedDragon

Oh get off your high horse Wasdie. You think some of these games would sell anywhere near what they did, if they didn't have modding communities to keep the games fresh? There are people who consider Oblivion unplayable without mods. Even I did my own little tweaking to balance out what I deemed to be badly done skill level rates.

It's not a purely charitable decision on the developers part, to allow gamers to act as a unpaid content production workforce for their games. Removing mod support just ensures that games end up on the discount pile quicker, because they have nothing new to offer.

Honestly... you make it sound like mod support is a pure cost for the developers, with gamers just being parasites wanting something for nothing. Content creators enjoy the recognition they get for their mods.

its a loss stream for these tools when they get no end returns..Dollar signs talk and bull walks.

Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this.Wasdie

How come? It takes an effort DICE isn't willing to do. Simple as that. But it's one thing to simply state "we don't think it's worth our time" and whole different to try to blantantly lie to people's faces about how hard the engine would be for modders, which is complete BS.

Fact is...DICE couldn't give a crap about modding community. As simple as that. If they would just state it clearly there would be no problem, but they seem to be ashamed enough (no idea why) that they need some sort of excuse. WHich is silly, because most people still won't believe what they say.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

No. A lot of hardcore PC people just want the Project Reality team to work their asses off to put a mod out. These same people will also whine every week that the mod isn't out if there is mod tools.

Mod tools usually mean tons of free content for gamers at the expense of other people's time and effort. They don't care, they want free stuff. They believe they are entitled to free stuff. When they don't get their free stuff and have to pay for people's hard work like everybody else, they complain.

The argument usually is "well PC games have always had mod support." That was long before it cost tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to make game engines. Mod tools don't just take time and effort to make, they have to be supported and maintained as the engine changes over time. This is a running cost that they make no money from.

AnnoyedDragon

Oh get off your high horse Wasdie. You think some of these games would sell anywhere near what they did, if they didn't have modding communities to keep the games fresh? There are people who consider Oblivion unplayable without mods. Even I did my own little tweaking to balance out what I deemed to be badly done skill level rates.

It's not a purely charitable decision on the developers part, to allow gamers to act as a unpaid content production workforce for their games. Removing mod support just ensures that games end up on the discount pile quicker, because they have nothing new to offer.

Honestly... you make it sound like mod support is a pure cost for the developers, with gamers just being parasites wanting something for nothing. Content creators enjoy the recognition they get for their mods.

But mod support is a pure cost for a developer, you just want free content at the cost of the developer sinking a lot of time into mod tools. When they are a part of a game it's a great bonus, but when they are not there is no reason to get upset like people do. Mods don't make or break games nor do they sell more copies in this day and age. Today we expect a quality game from day one full of content and polish, not a half-assed game so the modders can finish off what the developers started.

Also you keep blaming DICE when DICE has nothing to do with this at all. If it was up to them, they would have community mod support. This is obviously EA's decision, and one that has a lot of justification behind it.

Good modding tools and support is a pure cost with little no reward. How many BF2 mods were there that got any real completion? Two. Those were made by dedicated teams of amateur developers. Everybody crying out for mod support only wants it so that these development teams can remake their mods from scratch so that they can get free content at others expenses.

In this day and age a game engine needs to be specifically designed to support mods. The two biggest examples are the UDK and now the CryEngine 3 with it's full SDK coming shortly. These engines were made for the sake of selling to smaller developers and making free games to get their engine exposure. It's a costly business strategy to make their engine developer friendly enough to put it out and support it. There is nothing super complicated with either of the engines and they both come from a long line of game engines with years of support. The Frostebite 2.0 engine has some major advantages that no company would dare give out for free. It's stupid.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Such a shame. Project Reality for BF2 is still vastly superior to anything DICE has ever been able to make.

In reality DICE just wants to sell DLC and mod tools make that very hard to pull off.

Och well, Red Orchestra 2 and ArmA III will both support heavy modding, expecting that from multiplat like BF3 was rather silly anyway, even if PC version is the lead one. You want mods you need to look to PC-centric devs, DICE just ain't one of them anymore.

SkyWard20

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with this.AdrianWerner

How come? It takes an effort DICE isn't willing to do. Simple as that. But it's one thing to simply state "we don't think it's worth our time" and whole different to try to blantantly lie to people's faces about how hard the engine would be for modders, which is complete BS.

Fact is...DICE couldn't give a crap about modding community. As simple as that. If they would just state it clearly there would be no problem, but they seem to be ashamed enough (no idea why) that they need some sort of excuse. WHich is silly, because most people still won't believe what they say.

There is a difference between not finishing your code and meeting a deadline. The resources are not always there.

With your logic, every game developer and software developer is lazy. There is always tons and tons of content that needs to be cut to make a release possible. But apparently they are just lazy.

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Such a shame. Project Reality for BF2 is still vastly superior to anything DICE has ever been able to make.

In reality DICE just wants to sell DLC and mod tools make that very hard to pull off.

Och well, Red Orchestra 2 and ArmA III will both support heavy modding, expecting that from multiplat like BF3 was rather silly anyway, even if PC version is the lead one. You want mods you need to look to PC-centric devs, DICE just ain't one of them anymore.

AdrianWerner

Modding is the devil now, for BF fanboys...GeneralShowzer

No, it's not. It's a great thing, but I think it's time for PC fanboys to understand that modding tools are a bonus, not a requirement and that nobody is entitled to free content. PC gamers are the most entitled of all. They want free DLC, cheaper games, and mod tools all because they feel that their purchase of a gaming rig warrants them some sort of entitlement to free stuff.

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over. Fighting it at every corner, calling developers lazy, spamming their boards, pirating their games, all doesn't help. After seeing what PC gamers can be, it doesn't suprise me that so many developers are giving up on the PC. The sales aren't there and the consumers are extremely difficult to deal with.

But mod support is a pure cost for a developer, you just want free content at the cost of the developer sinking a lot of time into mod tools. When they are a part of a game it's a great bonus, but when they are not there is no reason to get upset like people do. Mods don't make or break games nor do they sell more copies in this day and age. Today we expect a quality game from day one full of content and polish, not a half-assed game so the modders can finish off what the developers started.

Also you keep blaming DICE when DICE has nothing to do with this at all. If it was up to them, they would have community mod support. This is obviously EA's decision, and one that has a lot of justification behind it.

Good modding tools and support is a pure cost with little no reward. How many BF2 mods were there that got any real completion? Two. Those were made by dedicated teams of amateur developers. Everybody crying out for mod support only wants it so that these development teams can remake their mods from scratch so that they can get free content at others expenses.

In this day and age a game engine needs to be specifically designed to support mods. The two biggest examples are the UDK and now the CryEngine 3 with it's full SDK coming shortly. These engines were made for the sake of selling to smaller developers and making free games to get their engine exposure. It's a costly business strategy to make their engine developer friendly enough to put it out and support it. There is nothing super complicated with either of the engines and they both come from a long line of game engines with years of support. The Frostebite 2.0 engine has some major advantages that no company would dare give out for free. It's stupid.

Wasdie

You're wrong, and I have explained why you are wrong. It's not a pure cost when player made content helps shift copies, long after the core game has lost people's interest.

Counter Strike, Natural Selection, Team Fortress. How many of these games wouldn't have existed, if it wasn't for the modding community?

But if you rejected my point, you will likely reject it again. I'm just saying, I think you are completely wrong, and even have a hint of aggression towards the PC crowd in your comments.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"] Oh please; give it a rest already.Heil68

Unlike the Frostbite 2.0 engine, the unreal engine has had mod tools for years. The whole engine was built for sale to smaller develpers (like tripwire). Part of the idea behind making it free is that indie guys use the engine to start making games, they pitch the game to a publisher, the publisher likes it and then spends the money to license the engine out and sell the game when it is done.

Global warming is to blame.

PhazonBlazer

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over

Wasdie

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Modding is the devil now, for BF fanboys...Wasdie

No, it's not. It's a great thing, but I think it's time for PC fanboys to understand that modding tools are a bonus, not a requirement and that nobody is entitled to free content. PC gamers are the most entitled of all. They want free DLC, cheaper games, and mod tools all because they feel that their purchase of a gaming rig warrants them some sort of entitlement to free stuff.

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over. Fighting it at every corner, calling developers lazy, spamming their boards, pirating their games, all doesn't help. After seeing what PC gamers can be, it doesn't suprise me that so many developers are giving up on the PC. The sales aren't there and the consumers are extremely difficult to deal with.

[QUOTE="PhazonBlazer"]

Global warming is to blame.

siLVURcross

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

But mod support is a pure cost for a developer, you just want free content at the cost of the developer sinking a lot of time into mod tools. When they are a part of a game it's a great bonus, but when they are not there is no reason to get upset like people do. Mods don't make or break games nor do they sell more copies in this day and age. Today we expect a quality game from day one full of content and polish, not a half-assed game so the modders can finish off what the developers started.

Also you keep blaming DICE when DICE has nothing to do with this at all. If it was up to them, they would have community mod support. This is obviously EA's decision, and one that has a lot of justification behind it.

Good modding tools and support is a pure cost with little no reward. How many BF2 mods were there that got any real completion? Two. Those were made by dedicated teams of amateur developers. Everybody crying out for mod support only wants it so that these development teams can remake their mods from scratch so that they can get free content at others expenses.

In this day and age a game engine needs to be specifically designed to support mods. The two biggest examples are the UDK and now the CryEngine 3 with it's full SDK coming shortly. These engines were made for the sake of selling to smaller developers and making free games to get their engine exposure. It's a costly business strategy to make their engine developer friendly enough to put it out and support it. There is nothing super complicated with either of the engines and they both come from a long line of game engines with years of support. The Frostebite 2.0 engine has some major advantages that no company would dare give out for free. It's stupid.

AnnoyedDragon

You're wrong, and I have explained why you are wrong. It's not a pure cost when player made content helps shift copies, long after the core game has lost people's interest.

Counter Strike, Natural Selection, Team Fortress. How many of these games wouldn't have existed, if it wasn't for the modding community?

But if you rejected my point, you will likely reject it again. I'm just saying, I think you are completely wrong, and even have a hint of aggression towards the PC crowd in your comments.

I even said that in this day and age mods don't push copies. It was far different back when those mods were coming out. You only gave me 3 examples of games created on the half-life engine from 1998 when modding made up for a lack of game content.

Simple, mods don't push games like they used to. If they did, do you think people would snub out mod tools so fast? Hell no. This is a damn business. You do what you need to do to sell games and make money. You all seem to forget that. Everybody just thinks developers are out to kill video games and put out useless DLC that nobody buys.

Also do you know the reason why ArmA 3 was able to be made? It wasn't the mod support. BI clearly stated it was the digital distribution and the 2 DLC packs they put out. Even though I coudl have gotten all of that content in those DLC packs for free with mods, they still somehow sold. Yup, mods sold that game alright. If it wasn't for the DLC they put out, there would be no ArmA 3.

]

Also do you know the reason why ArmA 3 was able to be made? It wasn't the mod support. BI clearly stated it was the digital distribution and the 2 DLC packs they put out. Even though I coudl have gotten all of that content in those DLC packs for free with mods, they still somehow sold. Yup, mods sold that game alright. If it wasn't for the DLC they put out, there would be no ArmA 3.

Wasdie

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Modding is the devil now, for BF fanboys...GeneralShowzer

No, it's not. It's a great thing, but I think it's time for PC fanboys to understand that modding tools are a bonus, not a requirement and that nobody is entitled to free content. PC gamers are the most entitled of all. They want free DLC, cheaper games, and mod tools all because they feel that their purchase of a gaming rig warrants them some sort of entitlement to free stuff.

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over. Fighting it at every corner, calling developers lazy, spamming their boards, pirating their games, all doesn't help. After seeing what PC gamers can be, it doesn't suprise me that so many developers are giving up on the PC. The sales aren't there and the consumers are extremely difficult to deal with.

You've basically say you've never seen anybody complain about the PC games not getting free DLC then go onto complain that we aren't getting free stuff and they are just being greedy...

You're basically supporting me when I say PC gamers just want special treatment. Nobody has a right to special treatment at all. When I built my new gaming computer last year I didn't build it in the hopes I could play more free content than I could get on my PS3 and 360. I did it for the games I couldn't play on my consoles or my aging PC.

I'm not trying to say I just want an expensive gaming console, however I don't see why a game developer has to go out of their way to give me free stuff. All I ask is I don't get some crappy port and so far a lot of game companies have really picked up the slack with that.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]]

Also do you know the reason why ArmA 3 was able to be made? It wasn't the mod support. BI clearly stated it was the digital distribution and the 2 DLC packs they put out. Even though I coudl have gotten all of that content in those DLC packs for free with mods, they still somehow sold. Yup, mods sold that game alright. If it wasn't for the DLC they put out, there would be no ArmA 3.

AdrianWerner

Actually the reason those DLCs were able to sell is because BI came out with Operation Arrowhead that fixed the majority of bugs with the engine. I find 10x the vanilla servers than I see modded servers. I see tons of custom missions, but a basic map-editor is not the same as full mod support.

Also do you know the reason why ArmA 3 was able to be made? It wasn't the mod support. BI clearly stated it was the digital distribution and the 2 DLC packs they put out. Even though I coudl have gotten all of that content in those DLC packs for free with mods, they still somehow sold. Yup, mods sold that game alright. If it wasn't for the DLC they put out, there would be no ArmA 3.

Wasdie

Right...

So you are going to reference a game I didn't bring up, argue that mods weren't relevant to its success, then act as if you disproved something I said about a game; that I never even referenced...

I'm standing by my point, and clearly you will stand by yours.

You've basically say you've never seen anybody complain about the PC games not getting free DLC then go onto complain that we aren't getting free stuff and they are just being greedy...

You're basically supporting me when I say PC gamers just want special treatment. Nobody has a right to special treatment at all. When I built my new gaming computer last year I didn't build it in the hopes I could play more free content than I could get on my PS3 and 360. I did it for the games I couldn't play on my consoles or my aging PC.

I'm not trying to say I just want an expensive gaming console, however I don't see why a game developer has to go out of their way to give me free stuff. All I ask is I don't get some crappy port and so far a lot of game companies have really picked up the slack with that.

Wasdie

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

You've basically say you've never seen anybody complain about the PC games not getting free DLC then go onto complain that we aren't getting free stuff and they are just being greedy...

You're basically supporting me when I say PC gamers just want special treatment. Nobody has a right to special treatment at all. When I built my new gaming computer last year I didn't build it in the hopes I could play more free content than I could get on my PS3 and 360. I did it for the games I couldn't play on my consoles or my aging PC.

I'm not trying to say I just want an expensive gaming console, however I don't see why a game developer has to go out of their way to give me free stuff. All I ask is I don't get some crappy port and so far a lot of game companies have really picked up the slack with that.

AdrianWerner

I don't know why people feel betrayed if they had the first understanding of modern game development. I guess working in the software industry I can see it from a whole different light. I'm working on something that is considered child's play compared to a video game engine and yet I would never have done this out of the good of my heart.

Actually the reason those DLCs were able to sell is because BI came out with Operation Arrowhead that fixed the majority of bugs with the engine. I find 10x the vanilla servers than I see modded servers. I see tons of custom missions, but a basic map-editor is not the same as full mod support.

Wasdie

Bohemia is a small studio with razor thin margins. If modding support wouldn't be provide financial advantage they wouldn't do it.

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

No, it's not. It's a great thing, but I think it's time for PC fanboys to understand that modding tools are a bonus, not a requirement and that nobody is entitled to free content. PC gamers are the most entitled of all. They want free DLC, cheaper games, and mod tools all because they feel that their purchase of a gaming rig warrants them some sort of entitlement to free stuff.

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over. Fighting it at every corner, calling developers lazy, spamming their boards, pirating their games, all doesn't help. After seeing what PC gamers can be, it doesn't suprise me that so many developers are giving up on the PC. The sales aren't there and the consumers are extremely difficult to deal with.

Wasdie

You've basically say you've never seen anybody complain about the PC games not getting free DLC then go onto complain that we aren't getting free stuff and they are just being greedy...

You're basically supporting me when I say PC gamers just want special treatment. Nobody has a right to special treatment at all. When I built my new gaming computer last year I didn't build it in the hopes I could play more free content than I could get on my PS3 and 360. I did it for the games I couldn't play on my consoles or my aging PC.

I'm not trying to say I just want an expensive gaming console, however I don't see why a game developer has to go out of their way to give me free stuff. All I ask is I don't get some crappy port and so far a lot of game companies have really picked up the slack with that.

DLC is made by professionals and it's their job...Or they just cut it out from the original game most of the time and chatge 10$ for it on release..

And also..the content is not free, you are still paying 60$ for the game. It's just a feature that is very possible and was very popular in BF2.

I really don't get this...You are trying to turn this into something else, saying PC gamers are self entitled or something because they want a feature already available in tons of other games. In BF3 it's even more important giving how modding was in BF2.

Dice likes to talk crap about other developers, but they are just as bad as the rest,

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Modding is the devil now, for BF fanboys...Wasdie

No, it's not. It's a great thing, but I think it's time for PC fanboys to understand that modding tools are a bonus, not a requirement and that nobody is entitled to free content. PC gamers are the most entitled of all. They want free DLC, cheaper games, and mod tools all because they feel that their purchase of a gaming rig warrants them some sort of entitlement to free stuff.

I've been saying this for the past several years that the days of the PC getting special treatment are over. Fighting it at every corner, calling developers lazy, spamming their boards, pirating their games, all doesn't help. After seeing what PC gamers can be, it doesn't suprise me that so many developers are giving up on the PC. The sales aren't there and the consumers are extremely difficult to deal with.