FFXV broke even on dev costs in first 24 hours, JRPGs are dead.

Neither have permanent power ups (Zelda doesn't have power ups, progression is defined by item discovery and usage).

Western developers themselves cite Zelda as an inspiration, and agree that there was nothing like it on the market. Just because Miyamoto thought powered up characters in Ultima were cool doesn't mean Zelda derives from Ultima, when the two were ultimately very different kinds of games.

Jesus Christ.

How you interact with the world of Soulsborne games is DEFINITELY rooted in Ultima Underworld and its sequel, although it lacks the conversation system that UU has. In fact, you can easily compare darkening Anor Londo in the original Dark Souls to the Tower of Tarnia moment in Ultima Underworld II in where your actions influence the entire level. From Soft originally made games that were basically clones of Ultima Underworld and the Souls series continues these elements.

@texasgoldrush: that's not what I said. You should answer my point first.

The gameplay -- how is the action? That has nothing to do with that game.

I wouldn't be surprised if Square announces that the game missed expectations.

Square are the ones who have announced it has surpassed expectations, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that

So is Ultima, you can find better weapons and armor to power up your character along with getting XP.

Western developers do site Zelda as an inspiration however, the very fact that you can not refute is that the Zelda creator was inspired by Ultima. You are now moving the goalposts. And lets not talk about Adventure, and other similar games that predate Zelda.

And the Ultima franchise inspired a lot of "different kinds of games". Its influence is shown in games that are not RPGs.

That's just an Alternative Fact. ;) Still wouldn't be surprised.

The Zelda creator being inspired by Ultima does not mean Zelda derives from it at all.

The creator of Donald Duck was inspired by Donald Bradman, a cricketer, does that mean that Disney comics are inspired by cricket? Christopher Nolan is inspired by Stanley Kubrick, does that mean that The Dark Knight derives from 2001?

I cannot believe I need to specify this, but I'll do this anyway: inspiration≠derivation

Playing it right now and i must say havent enjoyed FF game this much since FFX. Although the story is weak, quest occupies me i forgot the storyline anymore.

Yet you are still moving the goalposts. Influence is influence whether its inspiration or derivation.

@texasgoldrush: I can't find the zelda creators saying that Ultima underworld inspired them. That's impossible anyway, because zelda predates the game big time. If anything, zelda inspired UU.

Also, Demon's and Dark Souls producer Miyazaki has directly cited zelda as inspiration as well.

Soulsborne was heavily inspired by Berserk, a manga.

@93BlackHawk93: yeah that too as was dragon's dogma.

Bloodborne had more lovecraft in it though

Exactly.

This is TGR's usual nonsensical argument, repeated ad infinitum. No point going through the motions with him again, just ignore it.

I did not say Ultima Underworld, I said Ultima itself, which predates Zelda by 6 years.

Ultima Underworld is inspired by Wizardry and Dungeon Master as well as its main series.

But outside the lock on mechanic, 3d Zelda really isn't all that important.

Yet, you continuously move the goalposts to ignore clear facts That's nonsensical as well.

You lost the argument because I gave you a fact that cannot be refuted, leaving you to try and dance around it.

@texasgoldrush: Okay

@texasgoldrush: Dude. DUDE. FFS. Stop quoting massive post chains. USE THE DAMN REPLY BUTTON OR CUT OUT THE ALREADY IRRELEVANT POSTS.

I will start deleting your (and other users) posts one of these days.

Texasgoldrush 1 - Facts 0

@aigis: #AlternativeFacts

Has the thread title changed? It says JRPG's. I wouldn't call Resident Evil 7, Nioh, or Zelda a rpg. As far as sales go, most of those games are tbd.

@charizard1605: Real ACTUAL Fact: Miyamoto was influenced by Ultima when he made Mario and Zelda.

Yet you want to dance around this by moving the goalposts after you have been proven wrong earlier in the thread when you said he didn't say it.

@texasgoldrush: Okay

This.

Very few JRPGs are RPGs, but number games. Its all about how to inflate your damage numbers because they are all about combat. And you level up by going around in the field and beating on monsters instead of actually playing a role. JRPGs, even ones I like such as FFVI and Suikoden II, are big piles of ludonarrative dissonance.

Remember in the original fallout where you got more experience talking the hostage taker down instead of blowing him away? That's what JRPGs simply put, lack. Role playing and having more options than violence.

Who in the Hell ever said Japanese video games are dead?

You, being wrong.

I guess its your alternative fact.

Okay

Nobody wants JRPGs. That's why they sold so well.

A lot of sad lemmings.

@93BlackHawk93: Really? Because I've never seen lemmings say that, especially not against FF.

While not my favourite Final Fantasy game it is a very good game which I really enjoyed. Nice to see that it did well enough in the sales. Hopefully FFXVI won't take nearly as long as this one did.

I'm... seriously confused about what TC is saying. It's bad they broke even the first day of release??

Plus, I see no end in sight to high quality Japanese games I enjoy playing.

@Shewgenja: red dwarf :)

No, he's being sarcastic.

God dammit @Shewgenja

TLHBO somehow.

Congrats to JP gaming.

@charizard1605: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I couldn't be more clear. JRPGs are dead. Square-Enix is probably selling a building as we speak.

Final Fantasy are actually fun and good games. I just waiting for the PC version or Scorpio version if they update it?

Zelda is an action-adventure. Ultima is a turn-based RPG. Two completely different genres. Just because Ultima inspired a certain element in Zelda (the idea of getting stronger), that doesn't mean Zelda was derived from Ultima. If there's any game that Zelda was derived from, that would be Hydlide. That plays very similarly to Zelda, yet Hydlide wasn't influenced by Ultima at all.

Somebody needs to tell that Texas Fucboi dude that the war is over. For like 75 years now... This isn't the battle of Midway, it ok to give credit to the Japanese developers who have greatly influenced the industry, from Metroid to Mario Kart, 99.9% of the games you play today were influenced and/or inspired by Japanese developers, and vice versa. Southern freaks stay trying to normalize xenophobia and racism. We should have let those leeches leave when we had the chance.

They have greatly influenced the industry, true, but the West created the industry. That is a fact. And the West has been more willing to innovate than Japan, which is why it has taken the industry back.

But it is influenced by Ultima, and that is a fact. Zelda definitely derived from Adventure for the Atari 2600 however, which is a Western game.

The Souls series gets a lot of inspiration from Beserk or at least initially. Don't see where Ultima fits in.

I'm not a fan of FF games or JRPGs in general but I'm glad they found success. FFXV bombing would have probably been financially devastating and hurt the FF brand even further.

Wow. Well this read was dumb af.

Kingsfield is the only game that took inspiration from Ultima and that's where it stops. Whatever "roots" there are of Ultima in Souls is minutely small, small enough to not attribute anything to it at all.

Also you mentioned that "player action influences the entire level" are elements from Ultima and so somehow this extremely ubiquitous idea can be found bloddy everywhere. Maybe Ultima was the first but the idea itself was going to get used at some point regardless of who thought of it first.

@acp_45: Its a spiritual successor to King's Field, which is basically an Ultima Underworld clone. Notice I said Underworld, not a mainline Ultima series game.

We do not need the FF brand however, its no longer the top dog RPG series. A Final Fantasy game will get outsold by a Fallout game.

Wrong...I am also talking about Underworld now, not the main series.

The foundations influenced by Ultima Underworld is present even in Dark Souls, and is rooted in Wizardry and Dungeon Master before that. It has far more common with those games in its direction than games like Zelda and Ico, which influence only elements.

Ultima Underworld also played a huge role in ushering 3d action adventure games as well as freemoving 3d RPGs and immersive sims. Dark Souls has some immersive sim elements.

RPG's are more about adding numbers to abstract actions. If a game does this IT IS AN RPG. Like it or not.

You say playing a role. Take a look at Skyrim or Fallout 4 and compare them both to The Witcher 3. What now ? Yup, you went and decided all by yourself how a "role" should look like. JRPG's has this too.

You referring to an older game doesn't add weight to **** and especially when the olden days' RPG's were more about these numerical values you supposedly hate so much. RPG's were initially supposed to be more strategic and required some planning. RPG's are not about controlling characters or playing their role but more about having an input into the abstract characteristics that control the characters. If a game does this IT IS AN RPG.

A lot of the times you sound like one of those pseudo-intellectuals that just posts a lot garbage. Nothing you said is even true and that which is true is twisted.

@texasgoldrush:

Well I personally don't need FF but it's got quite a huge fanbase and is a gaming icon. It would be sad to see it go away. And are you implying that Fallout is an RPG? It barely qualifies. Besides a JRPG is a totally different flavor than a WRPG. Apples to apples man.

No they are not. they are about playing a role. Anything else and they are not a true RPG because that is what the PnP roots of the genre were. the JRPG has twisted it. They are nothing more than adventure games with turn based tactical combat, no real role playing, just railroading.

Skyrim and Fallout 4 still have immersive sim elements that are rooted in Ultima Underworld, so while they may struggle in the narrative choice department (although Far Harbor EXCELS here), the choice and role playing is still there. the Witcher and Mass Effect has narrative role playing where your decisions decide the outcome of the story. JRPGs rarely had the former and have gone away from the latter.

Look if you are constantly going to refer to old RPG's and then just use your painfully simplistic belittling of JRPG's that all check the traditional RPG quota checklist more so than Skyrim, Fallout 4 or The Witcher 3 does...this is just stupid. Pnp ? Gosh dude. That is like defining turn-based combat itself. You just gave most JRPG's a humongous nod. Immersive sim elements ? Seriously, even if Ultima Underworld had these before the dawn of time....don't you think they were inevitably bound to happen... ? The idea itself isn't true to the RPG genre's defining points but more to its hybrid qualities. Action RPG's are hybrids through and through. Traditional RPG's were all turn-based...so what the hell made some go real-time? Oh but wait they at least do have some of the elements... Which is leveling and character statistics that could be improved over the course of the game and a story line. These are the RPG elements of traditional RPG's except for the menu-based combat system which ARPG's don't have, they are pretty RPG-y. JRPG's ? Should I even say more ?

Immersive sim elements is not a defining quality of a traditional RPG.