Anything it takes to force Japanese devs to update their game's aesthetics to match the rest of the world. I'm still seeing the same giganto titted women, generic metal music, peace signs, and emo shit I saw playing games on SNES.
Anything it takes to force Japanese devs to update their game's aesthetics to match the rest of the world. I'm still seeing the same giganto titted women, generic metal music, peace signs, and emo shit I saw playing games on SNES.
This is very significant, given the game was in development for more than a decade.
People tried to say the same thing about Kojima and how he supposedly bankrupted Konami, but then MGSV made back all of the development costs and more within the first day.
Yup, that's why Konami profits spiked after kicking his butt.
@charizard1605: RE7 has a western writer, Nioh is rooted in Dark Souls and Diablo (both whose roots are in Ultima Underworld).
And FFXV is no match for The Witcher 3 commercially and critically.
And yet they are Japanese made games
@charizard1605: Everything else though,pretty dead. >.>
Two consoles (including the market leader) are Japanese, the most successful VR headset is Japanese, four of the five highest rated games of the generation are Japanese, both handhelds are Japanese, the most anticipated game of this year is Japanese...
Yet all the hardware is designed and made by Western companies. All the graphics API's in used developed and researched by Western companies. Funny thing even the only decent looking JRPG (FFXV) graphics is haevily aided by western teams. The rest of the titles Japan produce like Persona 5 looks like a free flash game made by someone in a garage.
95% of Japan games are shit outside of Nintendo, brawlers and Hack n Slash.
Sh*t like this earns tons of money whileactual good games like Ys 8 barely break 100k in Japan and don't even have an NA localization confirmed shows how f*cked up the industry is going.
Yup, that's why Konami profits spiked after kicking his butt.
It spiked not because Kojima made Konami lose money, but because Kojima's projects were huge which meant risks. Whereas all the slot machines Konami now milk are the very definition of "minimum inpuy, maximum output"
Sh*t like this earns tons of money whileactual good games like Ys 8 barely break 100k in Japan and don't even have an NA localization confirmed shows how f*cked up the industry is going.
Yup, that's why Konami profits spiked after kicking his butt.
It spiked not because Kojima made Konami lose money, but because Kojima's projects were huge which meant risks. Whereas all the slot machines Konami now milk are the very definition of "minimum inpuy, maximum output"
I know that but it still proves that he was eating their profits. I don't like it as a gamer but that's what it is and further confirms how Japan is less willing to bet on AAA games apart from the ones that looks like flash games for websites sold for $60. What a ripoff.
Look if you are constantly going to refer to old RPG's and then just use your painfully simplistic belittling of JRPG's that all check the traditional RPG quota checklist more so than Skyrim, Fallout 4 or The Witcher 3 does...this is just stupid. Pnp ? Gosh dude. That is like defining turn-based combat itself. You just gave most JRPG's a humongous nod. Immersive sim elements ? Seriously, even if Ultima Underworld had these before the dawn of time....don't you think they were inevitably bound to happen... ? The idea itself isn't true to the RPG genre's defining points but more to its hybrid qualities. Action RPG's are hybrids through and through. Traditional RPG's were all turn-based...so what the hell made some go real-time? Oh but wait they at least do have some of the elements... Which is leveling and character statistics that could be improved over the course of the game and a story line. These are the RPG elements of traditional RPG's except for the menu-based combat system which ARPG's don't have, they are pretty RPG-y. JRPG's ? Should I even say more ?
Immersive sim elements is not a defining quality of a traditional RPG.
Here is the thing. As much as I bash Bethesda for being deficient in RPG elements and narrative side of role playing, their games are still true role playing games. I am literally playing a role. Same with The Witcher 3. Most JRPGs are just strategy adventure games, not real RPGs.
Very few traditional RPGs from Japan have true RPG elements. Some do, like Sweet Home, Tactics Ogre, many Atlus games, but most are basically strategy adventure games. And XCOM has number game elements and leveling systems as well, but the series aren't RPGs. Just because it as leveling and stats don't make them RPGs.
Undertale shows how bad JRPGs are at actually being RPGs.
And most developers that are into immersive sim type games are descended from or influenced by Looking Glass Studios, so no, someone else might have not done it. Although I can argue that the main Ultima series was the first to have immersive sim elements.
@texasgoldrush: Yes, and the west takes ideas from Japan. It's called globalization.
Right. The fact is that Japanese developers have played the primary historical role in popularizing video games and pioneering game design, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. The fact that devs build on each other is good! It brings us breakthroughs in game design like Resident Evil 4, which basically every third person shooter borrows from, or Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden, which have set the stage for 3d action
RE 4 borrowed its ideas from Splinter Cell.
@texasgoldrush:
Would you consider a game like Final Fantasy III to be a strategy game and not an RPG and if so, why?
Sh*t like this earns tons of money whileactual good games like Ys 8 barely break 100k in Japan and don't even have an NA localization confirmed shows how f*cked up the industry is going.
^ This. FF15 was a pretty bad game. If it wasn't for the name and the hype, I wouldn't even have finished it. There are so many great games out there that deserve much more sales than FF15, but they won't get them. I hope at least persona 5 does well outside of Japan.
Japanese gaming is making a comeback because the PS4 is now the lead platform for most their games. A few years ago it was mobile devices.
@Quicksilver128:
The popularity has been revived with a demographic in the West because of their return on home consoles, but their popularity never waned to the Western market that embrace portable gaming. Consider the success Japanese games have enjoying on the Nintendo DS/3DS family and the PSP.
Zelda is an action-adventure. Ultima is a turn-based RPG. Two completely different genres. Just because Ultima inspired a certain element in Zelda (the idea of getting stronger), that doesn't mean Zelda was derived from Ultima. If there's any game that Zelda was derived from, that would be Hydlide. That plays very similarly to Zelda, yet Hydlide wasn't influenced by Ultima at all.
But it is influenced by Ultima, and that is a fact. Zelda definitely derived from Adventure for the Atari 2600 however, which is a Western game.
The Ultima influence is so small (the idea of getting stronger) that it's almost negligible. And Adventure wasn't even released in Japan, as the Atari 2600 flopped there. More importantly, Zelda plays almost nothing like Ultima or Adventure. The game that the original Zelda does play like, and is clearly derived from, is Hydlide, the first open-world action-RPG, which owes nothing to Ultima or Adventure.
@texasgoldrush: maybe the dungeon crawling component could have drawn inspiration from that game, but the gameplay doesn't even have a touch of that. Most western devs didn't start thinking about designing action rpgs to have actual action game-like game gameplay (attention to detail in startup and punish frames for weapon swings, hit detection via a pause, stun frames, boss or large enemies being more than just high damage high health sponges with different attack/defense properties etc.) until the 2000s. If you check out the people Ultima Underworld mostly influenced, its games like the elder scrolls series later down the line. In those games, none of the things I mention are given thought. You freely move and swing your weapon away without actually thinking about what is punishable or not, because the game isn't built like an action game. Nioh, Souls games (and while we're at it, Devil May Cry etc.) are built this way.
The games are overwhelmingly japanese influenced. Denying it is disingenuous at this point.
How you interact with the world of Soulsborne games is DEFINITELY rooted in Ultima Underworld and its sequel, although it lacks the conversation system that UU has. In fact, you can easily compare darkening Anor Londo in the original Dark Souls to the Tower of Tarnia moment in Ultima Underworld II in where your actions influence the entire level. From Soft originally made games that were basically clones of Ultima Underworld and the Souls series continues these elements.
Hidetaka Miyzaki has never mentioned Ultima Underworld in any of his interviews. He's mentioned the influence of games like Ico, Zelda, and Dragon Quest, and manga like Berserk, Saint Seiya, and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, but has never mentioned Ultima Underworld anywhere. He's clearly never even played the game.
The immersive sim elements you listed are common elements found in video games, some of which predate Ultima Underworld. For example, the NES survival horror JRPG, Sweet Home, already had some of those immersive sim elements from before. And nor do these elements define the core gameplay of Soulsborne. On the other hand, the things that X_CAPCOM_X listed are fundamental mechanics that define the core gameplay of Soulsborne, and those mechanics are heavily rooted in Japanese games.
As for Nioh, that's heavily rooted in Japanese hack & slash games like Onimusha and Ninja Gaiden, as well as Akira Kurosawa movies, combined with Soulsborne elements.
@texasgoldrush: I can't find the zelda creators saying that Ultima underworld inspired them. That's impossible anyway, because zelda predates the game big time. If anything, zelda inspired UU.
Also, Demon's and Dark Souls producer Miyazaki has directly cited zelda as inspiration as well.
I did not say Ultima Underworld, I said Ultima itself, which predates Zelda by 6 years.
Ultima Underworld is inspired by Wizardry and Dungeon Master as well as its main series.
But outside the lock on mechanic, 3d Zelda really isn't all that important.
Ultima Underworld was inspired by Ultima VI, which was inspired by Times of Lore, which in turn was inspired by Zelda. So yes, Ultima Underworld was ultimately influenced by Zelda.
As for 3D Zelda, according to GTA creator Dan Houser: "Anyone who makes 3-D games who says they've not borrowed something from Mario or Zelda [on the Nintendo 64] is lying." That's how important 3D Zelda is.
Look if you are constantly going to refer to old RPG's and then just use your painfully simplistic belittling of JRPG's that all check the traditional RPG quota checklist more so than Skyrim, Fallout 4 or The Witcher 3 does...this is just stupid. Pnp ? Gosh dude. That is like defining turn-based combat itself. You just gave most JRPG's a humongous nod. Immersive sim elements ? Seriously, even if Ultima Underworld had these before the dawn of time....don't you think they were inevitably bound to happen... ? The idea itself isn't true to the RPG genre's defining points but more to its hybrid qualities. Action RPG's are hybrids through and through. Traditional RPG's were all turn-based...so what the hell made some go real-time? Oh but wait they at least do have some of the elements... Which is leveling and character statistics that could be improved over the course of the game and a story line. These are the RPG elements of traditional RPG's except for the menu-based combat system which ARPG's don't have, they are pretty RPG-y. JRPG's ? Should I even say more ?
Immersive sim elements is not a defining quality of a traditional RPG.
Here is the thing. As much as I bash Bethesda for being deficient in RPG elements and narrative side of role playing, their games are still true role playing games. I am literally playing a role. Same with The Witcher 3. Most JRPGs are just strategy adventure games, not real RPGs.
Very few traditional RPGs from Japan have true RPG elements. Some do, like Sweet Home, Tactics Ogre, many Atlus games, but most are basically strategy adventure games. And XCOM has number game elements and leveling systems as well, but the series aren't RPGs. Just because it as leveling and stats don't make them RPGs.
Undertale shows how bad JRPGs are at actually being RPGs.
And most developers that are into immersive sim type games are descended from or influenced by Looking Glass Studios, so no, someone else might have not done it. Although I can argue that the main Ultima series was the first to have immersive sim elements.
What I'm getting at is that immersive sim elements doesn't define a genre, RPG's in this case. The elements that define an RPG are definitely the leveling of stats and the progression of a character the player has agency over. Dungeons and Dragons was all about stats and experience. You used the word "true" RPG elements but you keep going on about having a "role". Yeah look at Uncharted. What is Drake's role in that ? Yeah it's the bloddy same thing. If you are going to come at me with yeah but look at how stuff changes with different decisions you make blablabla. What about Until Dawn then ? You play different roles in that too. Spec Ops The Line ? You play a role in that game that can have a big impact on how everything plays out. Yeah sorry, role is not the defining element of an RPG.
RPGs take actions a character would perform and abstract them by adding numerical values to them. The story part was never the defining part and the "role" you are referring to is also not what defines it.
It's more about having controlling agency over the characteristics of the character rather than the character themselves. If a game gives a player agency over this....it IS AN RPG.
And nowadays we get way to many games that incorporate this element. Therefore most games that have leveling systems are hybrid RPG's. Call of Duty's ranking and prestige levels is a very basic and dumbed down version of this. And I can go on.
Life is a cycle and so are trends. Western games are now hitting a lull, Eastern games are making a comeback. Western games have sand boxed themselves to death. Big empty worlds with nothing to do. Easter games have reminded people that games can be challenging, complex, and gameplay focused.
Western games need to stop worrying about making people cry.
Xbox Scorpio to get definitive console version:
http://www.icxm.net/x/final-fantasy-15-june-20-2016-xbox-scorpio-final-fantasy-15-icxm-net.html
Update: In a new interview, Hajime Tabata said that his team was already considering how to upgrade Final Fantasy 15 for Xbox Scorpio. Tabata explained that the studio is currently thinking on what they could do to update the game for the new console given how it's more powerful than the PlayStation 4 Pro. From what he said, it seems that porting over the PlayStation 4 Pro version would be a disservice. According to DualShockers, "he doesn’t know what kind of variance there might be compared to the PlayStation 4 Pro version" given the power difference. He mentioned that they're going to try to make it the best version they can.
Final Fantasy 15 will be upgraded for Xbox Scorpio according to Hajime Tabata from Square Enix. Hajime Tabata was surprised by the announcement but given the fact that the console features six Tflops he was very impressed. Xbox Scorpio "has a lot of potential" was how he put it.
Final Fantasy 15 already looks like an amazing game and I wonder how amazing it will look at 4K on Xbox Scorpio. From the interview it seemed like they would also add other advanced effects. I can't wait until Hajime Tabata gets his hands on Xbox Scorpio and begins the process of upgrading the game for the console.
^ This. FF15 was a pretty bad game. If it wasn't for the name and the hype, I wouldn't even have finished it. There are so many great games out there that deserve much more sales than FF15, but they won't get them. I hope at least persona 5 does well outside of Japan.
It will. Sadly, Ys 8 won't outside of Asia.
I don't see the relation. Where did you get this.
@funsohng: You really think P5 will sell better than FF15? I know tons of people who only play FF because they know the brand and they don't even want to try Persona or the Tales of series. It's a shame Ys 8 doesn't make it to NA. I'm not exactly the biggest Ys fan, but every game we miss out is a shame :/
I don't see the relation. Where did you get this.
Nioh
Beginning development in 2004 as a multimedia project based on an unfinished Akira Kurosawa script, it went through multiple revisions over the following eight years as general producer Kou Shibusawa was dissatisfied with the result. Team Ninja was given the project, and the subsequent development lasted four years.
The original version of Nioh was based on Oni, an unfinished script by Japanese film director Akira Kurosawa. According to Yasuda, this initial version "just crashed", and the team had to start all over again. The only elements to survive into the final version were the setting, the protagonist being a blonde-haired foreigner, and the basic scenario concept: the narrative was otherwise changed into an original story based around the life of William Adams, a European who became a samurai serving Ieyasu, and the events of the Sengoku period. While the original Kurosawa script was dropped in favor of an original story, artistic elements and battle movements were inspired by other Kurosawa pictures such as Yojimbo and Seven Samurai.
If Nioh is taking its inspirations from Kurosawa movies; then they completely missed the mark lol.
It's not only taking inspiration from Kurosawa films, but it literally is based upon one of his scripts.
@X_CAPCOM_X: One they took massive liberties with; even jags write up implies it's more outline and visual stuff that is a hold over. And that would be wildly missing what makes a Kurosawa flick special.
Not that Kurosawa is ideal for a video game or anything.
I don't see the relation. Where did you get this.
Nioh
Beginning development in 2004 as a multimedia project based on an unfinished Akira Kurosawa script, it went through multiple revisions over the following eight years as general producer Kou Shibusawa was dissatisfied with the result. Team Ninja was given the project, and the subsequent development lasted four years.
The original version of Nioh was based on Oni, an unfinished script by Japanese film director Akira Kurosawa. According to Yasuda, this initial version "just crashed", and the team had to start all over again. The only elements to survive into the final version were the setting, the protagonist being a blonde-haired foreigner, and the basic scenario concept: the narrative was otherwise changed into an original story based around the life of William Adams, a European who became a samurai serving Ieyasu, and the events of the Sengoku period. While the original Kurosawa script was dropped in favor of an original story, artistic elements and battle movements were inspired by other Kurosawa pictures such as Yojimbo and Seven Samurai.
I remember this now. Tho the final product seems devoid of any similarity in terms of style.
@funsohng: You really think P5 will sell better than FF15? I know tons of people who only play FF because they know the brand and they don't even want to try Persona or the Tales of series. It's a shame Ys 8 doesn't make it to NA. I'm not exactly the biggest Ys fan, but every game we miss out is a shame :/
No, but it won't go under the radar.
As for Ys, it really is a shame, a lot of people are calling it the best JRPG of 2016 along with P5.
JRPGs aren't dead, but let's not act like the genre is thriving like it once was. We're in our 4th year of the current gen (as far as XB1/PS4 are concerned), can we really name that many notable current gen console JRPGs that aren't already Dark Souls III, Bloodborne, Xenoblade Chronicles X, or releases of last gen JGPGs like Valkyria Chronicles, Odin Sphere, FF Type-0? I mean, please enlighten me. I mean, don't get me wrong, some of the more notable titles to name are just around the corner, with Nier Automata and Nioh releasing this month, and Persona 5 just around the corner. I mean, besides that, we're in the 4th year, we should have too many to count.
@funsohng: You really think P5 will sell better than FF15? I know tons of people who only play FF because they know the brand and they don't even want to try Persona or the Tales of series. It's a shame Ys 8 doesn't make it to NA. I'm not exactly the biggest Ys fan, but every game we miss out is a shame :/
No, but it won't go under the radar.
As for Ys, it really is a shame, a lot of people are calling it the best JRPG of 2016 along with P5.
Now I want to try it. I know the feeling when a great JRPG goes under the radar. Trails in the Sky is a perfct example of this
@funsohng: You really think P5 will sell better than FF15? I know tons of people who only play FF because they know the brand and they don't even want to try Persona or the Tales of series. It's a shame Ys 8 doesn't make it to NA. I'm not exactly the biggest Ys fan, but every game we miss out is a shame :/
No, but it won't go under the radar.
As for Ys, it really is a shame, a lot of people are calling it the best JRPG of 2016 along with P5.
Now I want to try it. I know the feeling when a great JRPG goes under the radar. Trails in the Sky is a perfct example of this
It's ceratinly the best Falcom game I've played. Definitely the best in the post-Trails era.
JRPGs aren't dead, but let's not act like the genre is thriving like it once was. We're in our 4th year of the current gen (as far as XB1/PS4 are concerned), can we really name that many notable current gen console JRPGs that aren't already Dark Souls III, Bloodborne, Xenoblade Chronicles X, or releases of last gen JGPGs like Valkyria Chronicles, Odin Sphere, FF Type-0? I mean, please enlighten me. I mean, don't get me wrong, some of the more notable titles to name are just around the corner, with Nier Automata and Nioh releasing this month, and Persona 5 just around the corner. I mean, besides that, we're in the 4th year, we should have too many to count.
FFXV and Pokemon Sun/Moon were some of the biggest hits last year. That should have a knock-on effect for the rest of the genre, like what FFVII and Pokemon Red/Blue did back in the '90s.
@X_CAPCOM_X: One they took massive liberties with; even jags write up implies it's more outline and visual stuff that is a hold over. And that would be wildly missing what makes a Kurosawa flick special.
Not that Kurosawa is ideal for a video game or anything.
It's a different media. There's only so much they can carry over between different media, without turning it into a cinematic movie game. It's more like what Berserk was to Souls, inspiring things like the art design.
@Jag85: A game does NOT have to be officially released in Japan to influence a game director in Japan. Sorry, but Zelda clearly has elements introduced in Adventure (which is one of the most popular Atari 2600 games) to where it simply put, is not possible for Zelda not to be influenced by it. The fact of the matter is that Miyamoto was influenced by Ultima when he made Zelda. Does that mean it has to be totally derived from it? No, but influence is influence. Ultima Underworld has influenced Diablo, Gears of War, and Tomb Raider as well, which play nothing like Ultima Underworld.
Miyazaki is newer to FromSoftware as well, he did not create King's Field, which basically is Ultima Underworld Lite, which The Souls series is a spiritual successor of. The link to Ultima Underworld lies in King's Field. Even IGN has noted that King's Field is probably influenced by UU. FromSoft's games have roots in old school dungeon crawlers and that cannot be denied. While the combat mechanics of Dark Souls and the setting design come from other games, the roots come from these dungeon crawlers like Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld. And really, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Looking Glass Studios is a huge influence in most 3d adventure games and 3d RPGs today. UU is just as important as Mario 64 when it comes to 3d gaming, maybe more so.
JRPGs aren't dead, but let's not act like the genre is thriving like it once was. We're in our 4th year of the current gen (as far as XB1/PS4 are concerned), can we really name that many notable current gen console JRPGs that aren't already Dark Souls III, Bloodborne, Xenoblade Chronicles X, or releases of last gen JGPGs like Valkyria Chronicles, Odin Sphere, FF Type-0? I mean, please enlighten me. I mean, don't get me wrong, some of the more notable titles to name are just around the corner, with Nier Automata and Nioh releasing this month, and Persona 5 just around the corner. I mean, besides that, we're in the 4th year, we should have too many to count.
FFXV and Pokemon Sun/Moon were some of the biggest hits last year. That should have a knock-on effect for the rest of the genre, like what FFVII and Pokemon Red/Blue did back in the '90s.
But it won't. And really the knock on effect back in the 90's was overblown as well and eventually reversed. An across the board RPG breakthrough finally occurred in the 360/PS3 era.
@X_CAPCOM_X: One they took massive liberties with; even jags write up implies it's more outline and visual stuff that is a hold over. And that would be wildly missing what makes a Kurosawa flick special.
Not that Kurosawa is ideal for a video game or anything.
It's a different media. There's only so much they can carry over between different media, without turning it into a cinematic movie game. It's more like what Berserk was to Souls, inspiring things like the art design.
Also inspiring the events in the game's story as well as the characters, setting, cultural inlences (right along with art design) etc.
@Jag85: A game does NOT have to be officially released in Japan to influence a game director in Japan. Sorry, but Zelda clearly has elements introduced in Adventure (which is one of the most popular Atari 2600 games) to where it simply put, is not possible for Zelda not to be influenced by it. The fact of the matter is that Miyamoto was influenced by Ultima when he made Zelda. Does that mean it has to be totally derived from it? No, but influence is influence. Ultima Underworld has influenced Diablo, Gears of War, and Tomb Raider as well, which play nothing like Ultima Underworld.
Miyazaki is newer to FromSoftware as well, he did not create King's Field, which basically is Ultima Underworld Lite, which The Souls series is a spiritual successor of. The link to Ultima Underworld lies in King's Field. Even IGN has noted that King's Field is probably influenced by UU. FromSoft's games have roots in old school dungeon crawlers and that cannot be denied. While the combat mechanics of Dark Souls and the setting design come from other games, the roots come from these dungeon crawlers like Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld. And really, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Looking Glass Studios is a huge influence in most 3d adventure games and 3d RPGs today. UU is just as important as Mario 64 when it comes to 3d gaming, maybe more so.
Your argument makes no logical sense. For a game to have an influence in a nation, it needs to actually be available in said nation. There is no evidence at all to suggest that Adventure was ever available in Japan at the time. Nor is there evidence of any Atari 2600 import scene ever existing in Japan. We know that Japan had an Apple II import scene, but no such import scene ever existed for the 2600, ruling out the possibility of importing. It is virtually impossible for Adventure to have had any influence on Zelda. Whatever similar elements you may be thinking of, Zelda got them from Hydlide, which was a massive hit in Japan and plays far more like Zelda than any other game before it. As for Ultima, the only thing it influenced is the leveling-up concept, which Zelda does differently from Ultima anyway. Taking a single influence doesn't mean the whole thing is derived from it. That doesn't make any logical sense. Zelda is clearly derived from Hydlide, not Adventure or Ultima.
Not only has Miyazaki never mentioned Ultima Underworld before, but no other From Soft interviews mention it either. There is no direct evidence (from developer interviews) to suggest UU even influenced King's Field, let alone Souls. Besides, some of the things you credit UU for already existed in Japan before UU. For example, environment-based storytelling was introduced by Sweet Home, a Capcom NES horror JRPG from 1989, three years before UU. Or real-time 3D movement, which 3D JRPGs like Wibarm and Star Cruiser did back in the '80s. Or open-world dungeon exploration, which Metroidvania games have been doing since the '80s. You are vastly overrating UU's importance. It's important for the immersive sim genre, but not that important for games outside of the genre. UU is nowhere near as important as Mario 64, which inspired the way in which 3D games are played to this day.
But it won't. And really the knock on effect back in the 90's was overblown as well and eventually reversed. An across the board RPG breakthrough finally occurred in the 360/PS3 era.
I was talking about JRPGs, not RPGs in general. Besides, the biggest RPG breakthrough is Pokemon, by far. Pokemon has become the highest-grossing entertainment media franchise of all time, surpassing the likes of Star Wars, Harry Potter, James Bond, and Lord of the Rings.
@Jag85: So you basically suggest that Nintendo never heard of or never looked at the Atari 2600 when making the NES? Now that is illogical. Hell, Nintendo tried to partner with them. You are trying to move the goal posts here, the fact of th ematter is there was indeed Ultima influence in Zelda and the creator noted it. What you still are not recognizing is Ultima's influence also lies outside the RPG genre. And facts are facts, along with Wizardry, its the foundation of what we know as the JRPG.
You can argue around the point all you want, but the RPG is a western created genre that the Japanese built off of and brought some new ideas to. Games like Zelda just do not come out of the hat.
And read my arguments again. I credited Ultima Underworld for taking 3d environmental design forward as its immersive sim elements, but if you want tot talk just about environment design, well Ultima and other games influenced that to and the Japanese picked up on it. Sweet Home has Ultima and Wizardry influence, like almost every JRPG. Ultima Underworld was influential because of the SUM OF ITS PARTS, its how the parts come together. From Soft clearly took from Ultima Underworld to the point where people compare the two and make the easiest guess that it was influenced by it.
And lets look at this.....Tomb Raider was released in the same year as Mario 64 and provided the template for 3d action adventure titles, so Mario 64 was not the only 3d game in town that year that influenced the industry. We are still seeing the impact of Tomb raider in todays games with Naughty Dog titles. But what was Tomb Raider influenced by? Ultima Underworld. So basically Ultima Underworld played a hand in creating the 3d action adventure genre we see today. Ultima Underworld as influenced Black Isle, Bioware, Bethesda, and other WRPG studios. Diablo is also influenced by Ultima Underworld and seems to rip from Ultima VIII. The Gears of war creator also said it was more influential to him than Doom. And looking at todays games, the Looking Glass legacy dominates the game design of major AAA titles as well as indie adventure games such as SOMA and Gone Home. Ultima Underworld has an absolutely huge influence tree. Mario 64 is very important no doubt, but other 3d titles that were highly influential were released in the same year or before it. And outside the lock on system, Ocarina of Time is very much, over credited in its importance to 3d gaming.
And that's what the Japanese game development is, overcredited. They are not so much innovative as they are putting successful spins on Western ideas, and outside of certain genres, the West build the foundations of the genre of games we see today. Japan does get credit for certain aspects, like saving the console industry, no doubt, but the West has done more when it comes to game innovation and that is a fact. This is how the West was able to surpass them in the long run.
Outside of Pokémon and Final Fantasy (and sticking Kingdom Hearts with this), JRPGs didn't get much of a boost in the West, only those two franchises really broke through to be mass successes. Its not until the 360 generation that RPGs got an across the board breakthrough. Skyrim has 30 million copies sold, for example, nearly three times what FFVII sold.
I am not the only one making a connection between Dark Souls and UU.
What is Texas even fucking arguing?
1. Anyone with even basic comprehension can grasp that Japan's chances of having the commercial success of a big budget western game. Without Japan, those Japanese centric games with their aesthetics are more of a niche offering in the west.
2. Ocarina's impact, even if it was just Z-targetting, is pretty fucking huge when it comes to how third person games play.
3. Even if Japan suddenly had more influence from the west (Don't know he continues to sell the Demon's Souls is western routine over n over n over again), that wouldn't invalidate Japan's quality games that they still release. There are still plenty of obvious ways those games are Japanese.
But you know, we're talking about a clown who picks n chooses his stupid consensus bullshit (a fucking fallacy mind you in an argument of quality), and apologizes for mediocre gameplay in overrated games because "hur durr some of its parts", because in some twisted world the interactive parts aren't the most important part of a game.
What is Texas even fucking arguing?
1. Anyone with even basic comprehension can grasp that Japan's chances of having the commercial success of a big budget western game. Without Japan, those Japanese centric games with their aesthetics are more of a niche offering in the west.
2. Ocarina's impact, even if it was just Z-targetting, is pretty fucking huge when it comes to how third person games play.
3. Even if Japan suddenly had more influence from the west (Don't know he continues to sell the Demon's Souls is western routine over n over n over again), that wouldn't invalidate Japan's quality games that they still release. There are still plenty of obvious ways those games are Japanese.
But you know, we're talking about a clown who picks n chooses his stupid consensus bullshit (a fucking fallacy mind you in an argument of quality), and apologizes for mediocre gameplay in overrated games because "hur durr some of its parts", because in some twisted world the interactive parts aren't the most important part of a game.
The Z targeting system impact is huge, but for that genre. Outside of this element, Ocarina of Time is not at all revolutionary as people credit to it being.
Once again, From Soft's games are rooted in Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld, which are western titles. You cannot ignore that they put a spin on a western created genre.
And you keep arguing that being the sum of its parts don't matter when games that specialize in what you want out of it crash and burn or be called a letdown because it simply put, is not a complete experience. You still do not get why The Witcher 3 is hailed despite its mediocre combat and was picked of MGSV for GOTY? Here is a hint, its because there is gameplay outside of combat as well. Its the same way why Deus Ex is hailed despite its crap combat and mediocre stealth, because its the sum of its parts, the core soul of the game is still intact.
This is very significant, given the game was in development for more than a decade.
People tried to say the same thing about Kojima and how he supposedly bankrupted Konami, but then MGSV made back all of the development costs and more within the first day.
I don't buy this, I bet they wrote off some of those costs over the years (i.e. the scrapped PS3 version). So they wrote off 8 years worth of costs, then just measured profitability on the last couple years of PS4 development. Basically I think Square is full of crap on this one to claim "day 1" profitability.
Grats, one of the worst most trashiest FF games is a success. : )
That would be all those Final Fantasy XIII iterations.
I wouldn't say XV is a "return to form" by any means (assuming most of us consider the peak either the SNES games or VII on PS1), but it had plenty of good going on. It's no worse than 8,9,X, X-2, etc.
But I did find the pacing to be absolutely bizarre. It's one of the worst "fetch quest" simulators ever IMO. I thought the open world was pretty cool, going on hunts was somewhat addictive. But there were just too many NPC's that had nothing to do with the story, and not enough that were tied in to the main story. Basically there is lots of grinding to do in this game, but not really much reason to want to do it. I beat the game already at only level 50, but there were all sorts of hunts and such that were well above that level (up to level 99?). Just seemed sort of bizarre to me. Maybe there is more to do to "grind" towards and I'm just missing it (or maybe that will be DLC). But the problem is doing all those pointless fetch quests already burned me out a bit on this game.
Grats, one of the worst most trashiest FF games is a success. : )
That would be all those Final Fantasy XIII iterations.
I wouldn't say XV is a "return to form" by any means (assuming most of us consider the peak either the SNES games or VII on PS1), but it had plenty of good going on. It's no worse than 8,9,X, X-2, etc.
But I did find the pacing to be absolutely bizarre. It's one of the worst "fetch quest" simulators ever IMO. I thought the open world was pretty cool, going on hunts was somewhat addictive. But there were just too many NPC's that had nothing to do with the story, and not enough that were tied in to the main story. Basically there is lots of grinding to do in this game, but not really much reason to want to do it. I beat the game already at only level 50, but there were all sorts of hunts and such that were well above that level (up to level 99?). Just seemed sort of bizarre to me. Maybe there is more to do to "grind" towards and I'm just missing it (or maybe that will be DLC).
XV is less focused and polished than the first XIII title however.
XIII had direction, it was the wrong way, but it had direction.
This and Pokemon and Yakuza 0 and The Last Guardian and Resident Evil 7 and Nioh and Nier Automata and Zelda and Persona and-
Remind me how Japanese games are dead again? lol
And I wouldn't want it any other way. :)
Seriously, I'm so sick of all these boring ass western games like CoD, Halo, Gears, Battlefield etc.
FF 15 was in development before FF 13 came out? Interesting.
It was previously known as FF Versus XIII back then, before eventually releasing as FFXV.
Oh that's what happened to that game.
This and Pokemon and Yakuza 0 and The Last Guardian and Resident Evil 7 and Nioh and Nier Automata and Zelda and Persona and-
Remind me how Japanese games are dead again? lol
And I wouldn't want it any other way. :)
Seriously, I'm so sick of all these boring ass western games like CoD, Halo, Gears, Battlefield etc.
The west also has games like Dishonored 2, Undertale, Rocket League, The Witcher 3, etc. Quit with the shooter stereotypes, because Japanese games have stereotypes as well.
@Jag85: So you basically suggest that Nintendo never heard of or never looked at the Atari 2600 when making the NES? Now that is illogical. Hell, Nintendo tried to partner with them. You are trying to move the goal posts here, the fact of th ematter is there was indeed Ultima influence in Zelda and the creator noted it. What you still are not recognizing is Ultima's influence also lies outside the RPG genre. And facts are facts, along with Wizardry, its the foundation of what we know as the JRPG.
You can argue around the point all you want, but the RPG is a western created genre that the Japanese built off of and brought some new ideas to. Games like Zelda just do not come out of the hat.
And read my arguments again. I credited Ultima Underworld for taking 3d environmental design forward as its immersive sim elements, but if you want tot talk just about environment design, well Ultima and other games influenced that to and the Japanese picked up on it. Sweet Home has Ultima and Wizardry influence, like almost every JRPG. Ultima Underworld was influential because of the SUM OF ITS PARTS, its how the parts come together. From Soft clearly took from Ultima Underworld to the point where people compare the two and make the easiest guess that it was influenced by it.
And lets look at this.....Tomb Raider was released in the same year as Mario 64 and provided the template for 3d action adventure titles, so Mario 64 was not the only 3d game in town that year that influenced the industry. We are still seeing the impact of Tomb raider in todays games with Naughty Dog titles. But what was Tomb Raider influenced by? Ultima Underworld. So basically Ultima Underworld played a hand in creating the 3d action adventure genre we see today. Ultima Underworld as influenced Black Isle, Bioware, Bethesda, and other WRPG studios. Diablo is also influenced by Ultima Underworld and seems to rip from Ultima VIII. The Gears of war creator also said it was more influential to him than Doom. And looking at todays games, the Looking Glass legacy dominates the game design of major AAA titles as well as indie adventure games such as SOMA and Gone Home. Ultima Underworld has an absolutely huge influence tree. Mario 64 is very important no doubt, but other 3d titles that were highly influential were released in the same year or before it. And outside the lock on system, Ocarina of Time is very much, over credited in its importance to 3d gaming.
And that's what the Japanese game development is, overcredited. They are not so much innovative as they are putting successful spins on Western ideas, and outside of certain genres, the West build the foundations of the genre of games we see today. Japan does get credit for certain aspects, like saving the console industry, no doubt, but the West has done more when it comes to game innovation and that is a fact. This is how the West was able to surpass them in the long run.
Outside of Pokémon and Final Fantasy (and sticking Kingdom Hearts with this), JRPGs didn't get much of a boost in the West, only those two franchises really broke through to be mass successes. Its not until the 360 generation that RPGs got an across the board breakthrough. Skyrim has 30 million copies sold, for example, nearly three times what FFVII sold.
1. The NES hardware design was based on Nintendo's own advanced Donkey Kong arcade hardware, not the primitive Atari 2600 console hardware. Nintendo of America didn't exist at the time, so Nintendo looked to Atari to distribute the NES in North America, but after that deal fell through, Nintendo of America was set up. None of this changes the fact that Adventure wasn't available in Japan, so it could not have had any influence on Zelda. As for Ultima, I'm not moving any goalposts, but still telling you the same thing I said above: "The Ultima influence is so small (the idea of getting stronger) that it's almost negligible."
2. No one is disputing the influence of Wizardry and Ultima on JRPGs. What is being disputed is your claim that Zelda was "derived" from Ultima, which is a nonsensical claim. It's irrational to claim that Zelda is "derived" from Ultima over just a single influenced element, the idea of getting stronger (which Zelda does differently, and isn't central to what Zelda actually plays like). Zelda is clearly derived from Hydlide (which is what it actually plays like), not Ultima or Adventure.
3. Your argument is basically that, Ultima Underworld has some similarities to King's Field, and King's Field has some similarities to Souls, and Souls has some similarities to Nioh, and so Nioh must be "derived" from Ultima Underworld. This is an inherently irrational argument, since you're having to jump through so many hoops just to support your claim (look up Occam's Razor to see why this is an irrational argument). That's a very flimsy connection you're trying to make here. You need to be more specific about what mechanics you're actually referring to. The games that Miyazaki cited as direct influences on Soulsborne were Zelda and Ico, while the games that Team Ninja cited as direct influences on Nioh were Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, and Soulsborne. As for Sweet Home, its environment design comes from Metroidvania games, while its environment-based storytelling was inspired by the Sweet Home J-Horror movie it's based on.
4. Your argument is basically that, Ultima Underworld has some similarities to Tomb Raider, and Tomb Raider has some similarities to Uncharted, and therefore Uncharted must be "derived" from Ultima Underworld, and therefore UU must be the "most important" game ever. Again, your argument is flimsy and irrational, because of how many hoops you're having to jump through. Tomb Raider is a 3D platformer, essentially a 3D update of Prince of Persia, which is what Tomb Raider actually plays like, not Ultima Underworld. And it was Mario 64's fluid analog controls (and camera system) that became the basis for what 3D gaming plays like today, not Tomb Raider's digital tank controls. As for Ocarina of Time, its Z-targeting system was hugely influential, fundamental to third-person action games to this day, and third-person melee combat in general. 3D Zelda also inspired 3D GTA, which its creator Sam Houser described as "Zelda meet Goodfellas". As for Gears of Wars, its creator Cliffy B didn't cite UU as a direct influence on Gears, but as a personal childhood influence, along with Zelda, Metal Gear, Bionic Commando, and Doom. The games that he did actually cite as direct influences on Gears are Resident Evil 4, Kill Switch, Bionic Commando, Zelda, and Metal Gear. And speaking of Uncharted, its creators cited Zelda as an influence on their work, while citing Resident Evil 4, Kill Switch and Gears of War as direct influences on Uncharted (and its platforming mechanics are clearly influenced by Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time).
5. How is your rant here relevant to what we're even talking about? You're just making up random "alternative facts" out of nowhere.
6. Again, I was talking about JRPGs, so not sure why you're comparing them to WRPGs. Also, it doesn't make any sense to directly compare sales from different eras. The worldwide video game market is bigger today (with increased world population, and the game industry's expansion into developing markets), games were more expensive to buy back then (in terms of inflation), and there was no digital distribution (everyone had to go outside to buy from shops, and often deal with stock shortages), not to mention that you're comparing a multi-plat release to a single-plat release, FFVII was selling to a much smaller user base (just 10 million PS1 users at the time it released), and FFVII released early in the PS1's life as a killer app (doubling the PS1's user base, with millions buying the PS1 to play FFVII). Either way, the best-selling RPG to date is still the original Pokemon, and the biggest RPG franchises are Pokemon and Final Fantasy.
JRPGs aren't dead, but let's not act like the genre is thriving like it once was. We're in our 4th year of the current gen (as far as XB1/PS4 are concerned), can we really name that many notable current gen console JRPGs that aren't already Dark Souls III, Bloodborne, Xenoblade Chronicles X, or releases of last gen JGPGs like Valkyria Chronicles, Odin Sphere, FF Type-0? I mean, please enlighten me. I mean, don't get me wrong, some of the more notable titles to name are just around the corner, with Nier Automata and Nioh releasing this month, and Persona 5 just around the corner. I mean, besides that, we're in the 4th year, we should have too many to count.
FFXV and Pokemon Sun/Moon were some of the biggest hits last year. That should have a knock-on effect for the rest of the genre, like what FFVII and Pokemon Red/Blue did back in the '90s.
But it won't. And really the knock on effect back in the 90's was overblown as well and eventually reversed. An across the board RPG breakthrough finally occurred in the 360/PS3 era.
Yeah, by making them less of an RPG.
@Jag85: 1. But this doesn't mean that Nintendo did not look at the Atari 2600 and learn from it. It is illogical for a console manufacturer not to look at what came before. An Zelda's screen changes are very similar to Adventure as is Dragon Quest's torch system.
2. Hydlide's influences are derived from Ultima however.
3. No, I am saying King's Field is a rip of Ultima Underworld and they have far too many similarities that it is common to link UU as an influence to King's Field. The biggest influence that Dark Souls has is King's Field, beyond question. While Dark Soul's branches are influenced by other games, its roots are old school dungeon crawlers.
4. My argument is that Ultima Underworld has an impact on more than just its genre and has influenced games outside the genre. This cannot be denied.
6. Skyrim may match Pokémon Red or Blue's sales soon if not already (excluding Yellow). If I add Yellow, than first gen Pokémon together is the best selling RPG of all time. But think on this, Pokémon and FF sales have declined or not reached the peak of FFVII and first gen Pokémon.
You still do not get why The Witcher 3 is hailed despite its mediocre combat
Oh no I understood that fine, gamers like mediocrity. They actively like going against the strengths of their medium so they can help it become a pathetic imitation of film.
@Jag85: 1. But this doesn't mean that Nintendo did not look at the Atari 2600 and learn from it. It is illogical for a console manufacturer not to look at what came before. An Zelda's screen changes are very similar to Adventure as is Dragon Quest's torch system.
2. Hydlide's influences are derived from Ultima however.
3. No, I am saying King's Field is a rip of Ultima Underworld and they have far too many similarities that it is common to link UU as an influence to King's Field. The biggest influence that Dark Souls has is King's Field, beyond question. While Dark Soul's branches are influenced by other games, its roots are old school dungeon crawlers.
4. My argument is that Ultima Underworld has an impact on more than just its genre and has influenced games outside the genre. This cannot be denied.
6. Skyrim may match Pokémon Red or Blue's sales soon if not already (excluding Yellow). If I add Yellow, than first gen Pokémon together is the best selling RPG of all time. But think on this, Pokémon and FF sales have declined or not reached the peak of FFVII and first gen Pokémon.
1. We're talking about software, not hardware. And what do you mean by "screen changes"? Do you mean flip-screen? If so, then Hydlide also had flip-screen, so that's where Zelda got it from. Or do you mean a torch system? If so, then I don't remember Adventure having such a system.
2. Hydlide's creator stated that he had never played Ultima when he developed Hydlide.
3. Again, you'll need to be more specific. What gameplay mechanics are you actually referring to here?
4. Okay.
5. FF and Pokemon have picked-up recently, with FFXV and Sun/Moon being the fastest-selling games in their respective series.
#
@Jag85: 1. But this doesn't mean that Nintendo did not look at the Atari 2600 and learn from it. It is illogical for a console manufacturer not to look at what came before. An Zelda's screen changes are very similar to Adventure as is Dragon Quest's torch system.
2. Hydlide's influences are derived from Ultima however.
3. No, I am saying King's Field is a rip of Ultima Underworld and they have far too many similarities that it is common to link UU as an influence to King's Field. The biggest influence that Dark Souls has is King's Field, beyond question. While Dark Soul's branches are influenced by other games, its roots are old school dungeon crawlers.
4. My argument is that Ultima Underworld has an impact on more than just its genre and has influenced games outside the genre. This cannot be denied.
6. Skyrim may match Pokémon Red or Blue's sales soon if not already (excluding Yellow). If I add Yellow, than first gen Pokémon together is the best selling RPG of all time. But think on this, Pokémon and FF sales have declined or not reached the peak of FFVII and first gen Pokémon.
1. We're talking about software, not hardware. And what do you mean by "screen changes"? Do you mean flip-screen? If so, then Hydlide also had flip-screen, so that's where Zelda got it from. Or do you mean a torch system? If so, then I don't remember Adventure having such a system.
2. Hydlide's creator stated that he had never played Ultima when he developed Hydlide.
3. Again, you'll need to be more specific. What gameplay mechanics are you actually referring to here?
4. Okay.
5. FF and Pokemon have picked-up recently, with FFXV and Sun/Moon being the fastest-selling games in their respective series.
1. Adventure did have "torch" elements on some screens where it blocked your view of the maze except what is around you. And overall Adventure had the concept Zelda uses well before Zelda was released.
2. But he was influenced by a game that did have the influence, Dragon Slayer. The company that made Dragon Slayer was even sued by Garriot for plagiarism.
3. I am talking about the core root of the game, not its combat or its art design. The core design of From Softs games are rooted in old school RPG dungeon crawlers, skipping the JRPG template entirely. Once again, IGN's video connects the Souls series to games like Wizardry, Ultima Underworld, etc. Yes, Dark Souls was influenced by Zelda, Ico, Berserk and the like, but the core is rooted in Kings Field and Shadow Tower, which was influenced by what I just listed. In fact, the Souls series is pretty much an evolution from those games.
4. The Looking Glass legacy is huge and cannot be denied, impacting games outside its genre. Even modern adventure games are influenced by its legacy, Nevermind first person shooters and 3D action adventure titles. And in the last two generations of gaming, the Looking Glass legacy has dominated.
5. Fast selling doesn't mean that overall it will sell more. Fallout 4 sold faster than Skyrim for instance but it will not outsell it in the long run because the reception isn't as good. I doubt FFXV will top FFVII in sales as its reception is not great (better than XIII but still not great). Also FFXV had a regional and multiplatform launch at the same time, which is a factor. There are signs that FFXV's sales will hit the wall and slow considerably if they already didn't have. Also FFXV sold worse in Japan.
You still do not get why The Witcher 3 is hailed despite its mediocre combat
Oh no I understood that fine, gamers like mediocrity. They actively like going against the strengths of their medium so they can help it become a pathetic imitation of film.
No, because WRPGs have more to gameplay than just hacking and slashing.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment