Graphics are the Ultimate Gimmick

[QUOTE="Cranler"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

 Yet Half-Life 1 is the better game, with tighter controls and better gun play.. The gun play in HL2 was extremely weak.. In the end of the day THEY ARE A gimmick if they do absolutely nothing for the actual game mechanics.. Hence why we are seeing dumbing down of games out there.. You can keep your "movie" games, if I want a great story and presentation I will read a book or go to a theater.. This isn't saying that games shouldn't have that, but it is devolving to this sh!t EVERY MAJOR game now.. Look at Killzone 4, it's the SAME SH!T military shooter we have been seeing for 7 years now.. Yet people were blown away by it, because they are gullible idiots who think that the game is some how "new" when it really isn't..  And please tell that to the people out there who play games like minecraft, FTL, or Terraria.. Games that could be done a decade ago, yet are becoming MORE popular than the so called "blockbuster" games of today.

sSubZerOo

  You know what adds even more immersion? Intelligent gameplay instead of throwing endless respawning enemies down narrow cooridors and not making little fences as boundaries or doing "out of combat zone warning"..   You guys can keep your immersion if your going to embrace shallow and brain dead gameplay just because you can see snot leaking out of the guys nose next to you... And lol no it was not always cloudy..  But yet again you guys seem to accept the fact of taking the dumbed down sh!t because it looks alittle bit more shinier....  Which only makes matters worse when these games lack replayability and are only getting shorter.. BUT MY god those sun rays sure looked great for the 10 hours I touched the game and haven't touched again!

So you only enjoy text adventures? ;)

Graphic tech is the reason why the WiiU has no third party support

Peredith

Graphics help with immersion though, which is important.

Are graphics a gimmick? Nope.

Are "HD graphics" a gimmick? Absolutely.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

I'm referring to the post I quoted, what did you mean then if not trying to blame "HD Graphics" on the current game design?

Jag85

Old-school action-adventure games had this something called "exploration", a concept that has become almost alien to so many new-school "hardcore" gamers who have become accustomed to being held by the hand down a tunnel.

With so much money, resources, time and effort wasted on trying to get the prettiest "HD graphics" possible, is it any wonder how simplified the gameplay has become these days?

Jag85

There are many different kinds of graphics (2D, 3D, 2.5D, photo-realistic HD, Cel-Shading, Artistic, etc.), and they all have something to offer. But when one of these graphical forms (i.e. photo-realistic "HD graphics") requires the developers to simplify the gameplay in order to devote most of their time and resources towards the graphics, then that's a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I love photo-realistic HD eye candy... but it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that it has actually improved the core gameplay. It hasn't.

I never said it improved core gameplay, I'm just saying that it didn't hurt it either. You think they are making FPS linear and easier because of their time and budget? I disagree, in the genre, what people are copying is what sells and let's face it, extremely pretty linear FPS tend to do the best, COD aside (with the pretty part, but the visuals are still good).

Here's a great example of just how much HD graphics has improved gameplay:

Here's a great example of just how much HD graphics has improved gameplay:

 

Jag85

I don't know why you are blaming graphics here and not gamers.

[QUOTE="nini200"]Also Motion Controls added a superior control method than Dual Analogs and Mouse and Keyboard for FPS.kenakuma

That is highly debatable. Really comes down to a matter of opinion, but this has to be the first time I ever heard Wii pointer > mouse/keyboard for FPS. 

Dual analog v. Wii pointer I have seen debated very heavily in regards to FPS. Really hurts the argument on the wii side when they don't even get half of the games that people say Wii controls would be better for...... guess that's another story though relevant to the discussion.

From my experience the only genre the Wii pointer clearly beats out dual analog in (but not mouse/keyboard) is point and click adventure games. Every other genre either has a very underwhelming showing on the Wii or if they do get a comparable game, motion controls aren't implemented well or at all in it.....

I used to be a Dual Analogs FPS player back with PS2/Xbox/Gamecube as well as I still am a M/KB FPS player but I've adapted and started Using WiiMote for FPS and can say that they do actually beat out the precision of even Mouse and Keyboard.  Mouse and Keyboard controls are great for FPS dont get me wrong, I love Mouse and Keyboard but WiiMote Pointer controls are superior to them.

Until the Mouse and Keyboard can prove accuracy as shown in this video, the WiiMote will remain the best method for FPS.  Dual Analogs could never do what's in that video so they are out of the running.

Half Life 2 was even more immersive, and I'm sure Half Life 3 (if it ever exists) will outdo both. Graphics matter, they aren't a gimmick.

Motion controls on the other hand didn't do anything to improve controls, Nintendo even turned their back on them by going back to traditional analogues with the Wii U.

Graphics are gameplay, I don't know why people like you constantly categorize aspects of game design in to these little terms like graphics, gameplay, sound, etc. They are not independant from eachother, you need graphics to compliment the gameplay and enhance it. 

I'm not saying that all games should have good graphics, just that certain games need photorealism because it compliments the somewhat semi realistic theme they have going on as far as gameplay is concerned (for example, fps's).

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Here's a great example of just how much HD graphics has improved gameplay:

 

GD1551

I don't know why you are blaming graphics here and not gamers.

Are graphics a gimmick? Nope.

Are "HD graphics" a gimmick? Absolutely.

Jag85

I honestly used to feel more or less the same before. I felt the focus and buget on graphics ruined gameplay because of the amount of effor and resourses it takes to make it look great. However.... it depends..... for example.. the game with the most beautiful graphics to me is Valkyrie Chronicles. The game just looks too gorgeous! fantastic... it makes me feel happy i play it. On another note.... on regular 3D graphics I don't really notice it once i'm playing the game unless something is of different graphic levels.. like a paper bag vs a character. But the one thing that does get me are enviroments... when they make a gorgeous enviroment i don't care.. i stand at the highest place and look at it... and for that to happen the game has to have good graphics... if it's mediocre it doesn't really does it, Like Xenoblade chronicles... it had awesome enviroment that was less appreciated because of the outdated graphics.

Increases immersion. Stories can be realistically told.RR360DD

Bullsh!t.

[

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Here's a great example of just how much HD graphics has improved gameplay:

 

burgeg

  ..  Yeah clearly that is why I recently played Doom 1 again with a friend on x360, and loved it..  Now this isn't to say Doom was perfect, but how can people fvcking defend the kind of game design of many of these games, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the fps genre.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

I don't know why you are blaming graphics here and not gamers.

Jag85

Are graphics a gimmick? Nope.

Are "HD graphics" a gimmick? Absolutely.

Jag85

I'm referring to the post I quoted, what did you mean then if not trying to blame "HD Graphics" on the current game design?

  ..  Yeah clearly that is why I recently played Doom 1 again with a friend on x360, and loved it..  Now this isn't to say Doom was perfect, but how can people fvcking defend the kind of game design of many of these games, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the fps genre.

sSubZerOo

You can't see why people would defend linear FPS design? I have no issues with old school design and there's actually alot of room for games like that but linear FPS are just much easier to get into.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="RR360DD"]

Half Life 2 was even more immersive, and I'm sure Half Life 3 (if it ever exists) will outdo both. Graphics matter, they aren't a gimmick.

Motion controls on the other hand didn't do anything to improve controls, Nintendo even turned their back on them by going back to traditional analogues with the Wii U.

Cranler

 Yet Half-Life 1 is the better game, with tighter controls and better gun play.. The gun play in HL2 was extremely weak.. In the end of the day THEY ARE A gimmick if they do absolutely nothing for the actual game mechanics.. Hence why we are seeing dumbing down of games out there.. You can keep your "movie" games, if I want a great story and presentation I will read a book or go to a theater.. This isn't saying that games shouldn't have that, but it is devolving to this sh!t EVERY MAJOR game now.. Look at Killzone 4, it's the SAME SH!T military shooter we have been seeing for 7 years now.. Yet people were blown away by it, because they are gullible idiots who think that the game is some how "new" when it really isn't..  And please tell that to the people out there who play games like minecraft, FTL, or Terraria.. Games that could be done a decade ago, yet are becoming MORE popular than the so called "blockbuster" games of today.

  You know what adds even more immersion? Intelligent gameplay instead of throwing endless respawning enemies down narrow cooridors and not making little fences as boundaries or doing "out of combat zone warning"..   You guys can keep your immersion if your going to embrace shallow and brain dead gameplay just because you can see snot leaking out of the guys nose next to you... And lol no it was not always cloudy..  But yet again you guys seem to accept the fact of taking the dumbed down sh!t because it looks alittle bit more shinier....  Which only makes matters worse when these games lack replayability and are only getting shorter.. BUT MY god those sun rays sure looked great for the 10 hours I touched the game and haven't touched again!

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

  ..  Yeah clearly that is why I recently played Doom 1 again with a friend on x360, and loved it..  Now this isn't to say Doom was perfect, but how can people fvcking defend the kind of game design of many of these games, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the fps genre.

GD1551

You can't see why people would defend linear FPS design? I have no issues with old school design and there's actually alot of room for games like that but linear FPS are just much easier to get into.

  I guess I expect more from people who call them selves "core" gamers..  I am mistaken.

I'm referring to the post I quoted, what did you mean then if not trying to blame "HD Graphics" on the current game design?

GD1551

Old-school action-adventure games had this something called "exploration", a concept that has become almost alien to so many new-school "hardcore" gamers who have become accustomed to being held by the hand down a tunnel.

With so much money, resources, time and effort wasted on trying to get the prettiest "HD graphics" possible, is it any wonder how simplified the gameplay has become these days?

Jag85

There are many different kinds of graphics (2D, 3D, 2.5D, photo-realistic HD, Cel-Shading, Artistic, etc.), and they all have something to offer. But when one of these graphical forms (i.e. photo-realistic "HD graphics") requires the developers to simplify the gameplay in order to devote most of their time and resources towards the graphics, then that's a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I love photo-realistic HD eye candy... but it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that it has actually improved the core gameplay. It hasn't.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

I'm referring to the post I quoted, what did you mean then if not trying to blame "HD Graphics" on the current game design?

Jag85

Old-school action-adventure games had this something called "exploration", a concept that has become almost alien to so many new-school "hardcore" gamers who have become accustomed to being held by the hand down a tunnel.

With so much money, resources, time and effort wasted on trying to get the prettiest "HD graphics" possible, is it any wonder how simplified the gameplay has become these days?

Jag85

There are many different kinds of graphics (2D, 3D, 2.5D, photo-realistic HD, Cel-Shading, Artistic, etc.), and they all have something to offer. But when one of these graphical forms (i.e. photo-realistic "HD graphics") requires the developers to simplify the gameplay in order to devote most of their time and resources towards the graphics, then that's a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I love photo-realistic HD eye candy... but it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that it has actually improved the core gameplay. It hasn't.

Like Tom McShea mentioned in that article he wrote about yerli's statement etc, dumbed down gameplay is not the result of a lack of recources or funds. It's because they need to make huge profits to be succesful when developement is so costly these days. and so they simplify the level design and gameplay mechanics to appeal the the largest audience possible. This is why publishers should be focusing on games with a simpler art styles and concepts, rather than all of the damn photorealistic shooters coming out every other week.parkurtommo

It's funny how backwards graphics evolution has become these days. In the 80s and 90s, it was all about trying to make the graphics as colourful as possible, increasing the colour palette as far as it could go (until we reached 16.78 million colours on screen), yet today the graphics seem to be going backwards, with the colour palette range for most of the graphically intensive games today decreasing rather than increasing.

Seriously what useful innovation is graphics even getting us right now. Everything gameplay wise that can be done on 8th gen consoles can be done on 7th gen consoles and current PCs. the new tech powering new consoles and current and upcoming PCs does not improve developers abilities to design great games and innovate. Graphics are an even bigger gimmick right now than the Wii U gamepad, Wiimotes, Kinect, and every other motion controller. At least motion controllers open up new gameplay and design options. Same could be said for touch controls, they actual open up new opportunities for designers. Graphics aren't doing anything right now. We don't need new tech just to get developers to do something besides generic bro shooter bro warfare 37. Just look at the Indie market. Most of those games don't even use current console and PC tech to its fullest and are way more innovative than most AAA titles.

Link3301

The gimick is motion controls and other types of new control techinques not graphics. The advancement in graphics can really help a game's art style shine.

[QUOTE="Link3301"]

Seriously what useful innovation is graphics even getting us right now. Everything gameplay wise that can be done on 8th gen consoles can be done on 7th gen consoles and current PCs. the new tech powering new consoles and current and upcoming PCs does not improve developers abilities to design great games and innovate. Graphics are an even bigger gimmick right now than the Wii U gamepad, Wiimotes, Kinect, and every other motion controller. At least motion controllers open up new gameplay and design options. Same could be said for touch controls, they actual open up new opportunities for designers. Graphics aren't doing anything right now. We don't need new tech just to get developers to do something besides generic bro shooter bro warfare 37. Just look at the Indie market. Most of those games don't even use current console and PC tech to its fullest and are way more innovative than most AAA titles.

Bruin1986

[QUOTE="Cranler"][QUOTE="nini200"] How did Nintendo turn their back on Motion Controls when Motion Controls are still being used in their Main games as one of the Primary control methods for Multiplayer (New Super Mario Bros U, NintendoLand)? Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

Also Motion Controls added a superior control method than Dual Analogs and Mouse and Keyboard for FPS. Just because you suck at them, does not mean they are bad, it means YOU are bad at them and need to practice, the same way you practiced with Dual Analogs when they were implemented.nini200

Not caring about graphics =/= not wanting graphics at all.

Not caring about graphics = doesn't matter if the game sets the highest benchmark, would still play.

The gimick is motion controls and other types of new control techinques not graphics. The advancement in graphics can really help a game's art style shine.

SerenityBeee

They're both gimmicks for the most part.

Your a gimmick

Your a gimmick

ultimate-k

Your family is a gimmick.

[QUOTE="nini200"][QUOTE="Cranler"] Does the wiiu come with motion control or do you buy it separately? How is motion control superior? The turning is awful because the right stick is removed. Still not enough buttons just like with a controller. Arms and shoulders get tired after playing for extended periods. Compared to controllers, motion controls are one step forward and two steps back.Cranler

Seriously? The turning is awful? LOL last time I checked, the turning was much better than Stiff Dual Analog turning. The WiiMote IS the right stick... Ok I don't know if you're really being serious here. Go practice with the WiiMote just like you did with Dual Analogs. I will give you my settings for controls on any FPS that we both have on the Wii/WiiU. I dare you to play with the settings for at least 48 hours, however you can spread the hours out, and I bet you'll change your outlook on Motion Controls vs Dual Analogs.

compared to Dual analogs for FPS, Motion controls are 3 steps forward over Dual Analogs. Dual Analogs work fine for other Genres but FPS are Pointer Control Territory.

I'd love to play a Mouse and Keyboard player in Quake, Unreal Tournament/Championship.  Being one myself from the good ol days of Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Unreal Championship, I'd know how accurate they are and yes they are very accurate but what happens when you run off that small mousepad?  Woops.  Pointer Controls don't have to worry about that.  Just give it a rest.

Mouse and Keyboard are very accurate, I'm not denying that, and they are a great way to play FPS but they are not as accurate as a WiiMote. Sorry but you're just wrong on this.

Barely any keys? LOL Wow you're really showing that you know nothing about the WiiMote. So how is it that on call of duty for instance that I can jump, Reload while turning in mid air, find my target, and while still in midair, shoot them down, all before landing (without the need for Auto Aim like Dual Analogs rely on)? Can't perform multiple Actions LOL you've gotta be joking me.

Go and actually learn the WiiMote before trying to debate something you know nothing about. I'll debate with you once you educate yourself on it because you're showing me that you know nothing about it right now.

[QUOTE="Link3301"]

Seriously what useful innovation is graphics even getting us right now. Everything gameplay wise that can be done on 8th gen consoles can be done on 7th gen consoles and current PCs. the new tech powering new consoles and current and upcoming PCs does not improve developers abilities to design great games and innovate. Graphics are an even bigger gimmick right now than the Wii U gamepad, Wiimotes, Kinect, and every other motion controller. At least motion controllers open up new gameplay and design options. Same could be said for touch controls, they actual open up new opportunities for designers. Graphics aren't doing anything right now. We don't need new tech just to get developers to do something besides generic bro shooter bro warfare 37. Just look at the Indie market. Most of those games don't even use current console and PC tech to its fullest and are way more innovative than most AAA titles.

Bruin1986

Yes but developers have not come anywhere near harnessing the power of current hardware and past hardware. Thus, new hardware is a useless "innovation" as things are right now. Half-Life, a game from 1998, has enemy AI that bests games today. Its AI is even better than the AI in Half-Life 2

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

  ..  Yeah clearly that is why I recently played Doom 1 again with a friend on x360, and loved it..  Now this isn't to say Doom was perfect, but how can people fvcking defend the kind of game design of many of these games, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the fps genre.

GD1551

You can't see why people would defend linear FPS design? I have no issues with old school design and there's actually alot of room for games like that but linear FPS are just much easier to get into.

Yeah, but most linear fps games are boring as hell.

Yeh, I think people call motion controls "a gimmick" but they do not know what it actually means. They actually think that "gimmicks" mean something that is useless or something that does not improve.LastRambo341

[QUOTE="Cranler"][QUOTE="nini200"] Try to play multiplayer on the WiiU which is what it's market is (Family Multiplayer) oh wait, you can't without WiiMotes.

Seriously? The turning is awful? LOL last time I checked, the turning was much better than Stiff Dual Analog turning. The WiiMote IS the right stick... Ok I don't know if you're really being serious here. Go practice with the WiiMote just like you did with Dual Analogs. I will give you my settings for controls on any FPS that we both have on the Wii/WiiU. I dare you to play with the settings for at least 48 hours, however you can spread the hours out, and I bet you'll change your outlook on Motion Controls vs Dual Analogs.

compared to Dual analogs for FPS, Motion controls are 3 steps forward over Dual Analogs. Dual Analogs work fine for other Genres but FPS are Pointer Control Territory.nini200

I'd love to play a Mouse and Keyboard player in Quake, Unreal Tournament/Championship. Being one myself from the good ol days of Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Unreal Championship, I'd know how accurate they are and yes they are very accurate but what happens when you run off that small mousepad? Woops. Pointer Controls don't have to worry about that. Just give it a rest.

Mouse and Keyboard are very accurate, I'm not denying that, and they are a great way to play FPS but they are not as accurate as a WiiMote. Sorry but you're just wrong on this.

Barely any keys? LOL Wow you're really showing that you know nothing about the WiiMote. So how is it that on call of duty for instance that I can jump, Reload while turning in mid air, find my target, and while still in midair, shoot them down, all before landing (without the need for Auto Aim like Dual Analogs rely on)? Can't perform multiple Actions LOL you've gotta be joking me.

Go and actually learn the WiiMote before trying to debate something you know nothing about. I'll debate with you once you educate yourself on it because you're showing me that you know nothing about it right now.

Wiimote cant have as steady an aim as mouse since the mouse sits firmly on a desk.

You want to talk about controlling Cod?

On the wiimote you use right thumb for sprint, jump, melee, cycle weapon, inventory and for grenades. Thats way too many commands for the thumb to be controlling.

I have a mouse with keys on both sides, all I have to do is squeeze the mouse with my right ringfinger to sprint, thats all my ringfinger does is control sprint. My right thumb uses the other side mouse button for melee. My middle mouse is used for lethal nade and the button just below middle mouse is for tactical nade. This means I can perform actions much quicker than a wiimote or controller user. Most of your fingers are wasted holding your inferior control device.

I played KZ 3 with the move, you have to sit perfrctly still. I made the mistake of changing my sitting position while waiting for respawn and when i spawning in I was spinning in circles. Its simply a horrible way to control a game. Plus its the most tiring way to play bu far as well.

People have gotten the wiimote to work with pc so why dont you set it up and play Quake live. You probably wont get past tier 2 ffa with the wiimote.

Yeh, I think people call motion controls "a gimmick" but they do not know what it actually means. They actually think that "gimmicks" mean something that is useless or something that does not improve.LastRambo341

Wii was a weak console that had no way of competing against the big boys so they tried to take the attention away from the console and hype up with the motion controls which turn out to be inferior to existing control devices. Sounds like a gimmick to me. Now the wiiu doesnt even come with motion control.

Lots of people think of motion conmtrol as a gimmick including Randy Pitchford.

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/174504/Randy_Pitchford_has_no_interest_in_nextgen_motion_control_gimmicks.php

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

  ..  Yeah clearly that is why I recently played Doom 1 again with a friend on x360, and loved it..  Now this isn't to say Doom was perfect, but how can people fvcking defend the kind of game design of many of these games, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the fps genre.

You can't see why people would defend linear FPS design? I have no issues with old school design and there's actually alot of room for games like that but linear FPS are just much easier to get into.

Yeah, but most linear fps games are boring as hell.

[QUOTE="Bruin1986"][QUOTE="Link3301"]

Seriously what useful innovation is graphics even getting us right now. Everything gameplay wise that can be done on 8th gen consoles can be done on 7th gen consoles and current PCs. the new tech powering new consoles and current and upcoming PCs does not improve developers abilities to design great games and innovate. Graphics are an even bigger gimmick right now than the Wii U gamepad, Wiimotes, Kinect, and every other motion controller. At least motion controllers open up new gameplay and design options. Same could be said for touch controls, they actual open up new opportunities for designers. Graphics aren't doing anything right now. We don't need new tech just to get developers to do something besides generic bro shooter bro warfare 37. Just look at the Indie market. Most of those games don't even use current console and PC tech to its fullest and are way more innovative than most AAA titles.

Yes but developers have not come anywhere near harnessing the power of current hardware and past hardware. Thus, new hardware is a useless "innovation" as things are right now. Half-Life, a game from 1998, has enemy AI that bests games today. Its AI is even better than the AI in Half-Life 2

I love me some good graphics.

Graphics are a crucial part of games it's impossible for it to be a gimmick.

I agree, look at these examples, the grafical gimmicks bring nothing.

As can be clearly seen, the graphics bring nothing new.

You're not getting the point, and you should look at the definition of gimmick.

Graphics is important because it drives immersion, innovation and gives the ability to construct decent storylines. I do disagree with Crytek about 60% of the game being graphics because there's much more to the game, such as gameplay and sound. I just think 60% is too much, but it's Crytek post-consolisation so it's not surprising.

The importance of graphics is dependant on the game. For example, Hotline Miami is still a great game without graphics in mind because it is obviously focused on gameplay, it's what makes the game awesome. On the other hand, Heavy Rain wouldn't be good if the graphics are poor - if you're playing it for the story, it's important for the game to look good.

If it was for good/great graphics we wouldn't have great titles like the newest Crysis. 60% of that game is graphics and judging by metacritic its definately in its favor.

I agree, look at these examples, the grafical gimmicks bring nothing.

 

As can be clearly seen, the graphics bring nothing new.

tenaka2

I agree, look at these examples, the grafical gimmicks bring nothing.

 

As can be clearly seen, the graphics bring nothing new.

tenaka2

Obvious bullshot, you know graphics aren't that good.  :P