Hacking - The Legal Grounds.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#101 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50147 Posts

I side with Sony and the game makers, since by extension I am siding with consumers. More piracy leads to stricter copy protection measures and more expensive games, and if we end up having to use serial keys it will be the hackers' faults. Banishing the hackers from PS3 will ensure those of us who play fair will be able to enjoy our PS3s uninhibited with a minimal amount of fuss.

Timstuff
Just curious, piracy has been a problem on the Wii and Xbox 360 for a very long time now... how come we haven't seen additional measures like keys, or higher prices?
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general_KDI

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#102 general_KDI
Member since 2003 • 1068 Posts

us.playstation.com is down again... I hate these guys...

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#103 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 50147 Posts

us.playstation.com is down again... I hate these guys...

general_KDI
What do you use the PlayStation site for anyways? lol
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general_KDI

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#104 general_KDI
Member since 2003 • 1068 Posts

Seeing if my friends are playing while I'm not at home, so I can just know if they are at home, and drop by their house. See where they are on their Demon's souls game. I don't use it that much, but it's great when you wanna see what's going on without your PS3.

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Timstuff

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#105 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts
All that these DDOS attacks do is get people PO'd at Anonymous, because the only people it hurts are the customers and Sony's IT department. Do they really think that this will somehow stop Sony from suing Geohotz, or that it will lose them even one customer?
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finalfantasy94

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#106 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

[QUOTE="general_KDI"]

us.playstation.com is down again... I hate these guys...

Stevo_the_gamer

What do you use the PlayStation site for anyways? lol

I use it to update my psn card for the forums and I do check the blogs.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#107 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
In the end the Hackers are only hurting innocent gamers. So yeah...fudge 'em.
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PBSnipes

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#108 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

I'm for balanced, reasonable IP law, which in terms of the whole Us v. Them mentality puts me somewhat reluctantly (in the sense that he seems to be a bit of a c***) on Hotz' side (although I'd argue it puts me on everyone's side, as evidenced by the LG v. Sony legal snafu in Europe and general clown**** insanity surrounding technology patents nowadays).

Instead of going on some rambling, semi-incoherent diatribe, I'll just link to Lawrence Lessig's Free Culture (which is, appropriately, available for free), as it covers about 99% of my position and does so in a much more eloquent and intelligent manner than I could ever hope to. And to demonstrate just how important balanced and reasonable IP law is, here's an excellent article on how 3D printing is going to turn IP law into an even bigger cluster**** than it already is.

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KalDurenik

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#109 KalDurenik
Member since 2004 • 3736 Posts
People still think he tampered with evidence and ran away to avoid the court in a CIVIL case? Its been proven wrong so many times that its just sad that people still think that sony wrote the truth.
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Jynxzor

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#110 Jynxzor
Member since 2003 • 9313 Posts
its just sad that people still think that sony wrote the truth.KalDurenik
It's also sad that people still think Sony ever even accused him of either.
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PBSnipes

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#112 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

It's also sad that people still think Sony ever even accused him of either.Jynxzor

Link(s)? I'm not as sure about the whole "fleeing to South America" thing, but from what I've read it seems pretty clear Sony was behind the whole "Hotz tampered with evidence" snafu.

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110million

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#114 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
Sony went so hard and fast after geohotz on sketchy laws that they embarrassed themselves. They should have gone after cheaters, not the hackers, because you can't reverse pandora's box, all you can do is mitigate the damage. No matter what they did to the hackers, it could not prevent what they have already done. With Pandora's box open, catching the one who opened it may allow them to save some face or some such, but it will never stop the spread it had caused. It is now up to PSN devs or game devs to try to prevent cheaters, as its the only thing they can really do to prevent further damage. I don't need to side with anyone.
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Jynxzor

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#115 Jynxzor
Member since 2003 • 9313 Posts

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"] It's also sad that people still think Sony ever even accused him of either.PBSnipes

Link(s)? I'm not as sure about the whole "fleeing to South America" thing, but from what I've read it seems pretty clear Sony was behind the whole "Hotz tampered with evidence" snafu.

From what I understand it's massive twisted of Sony's words. -- In a filing today, Sony said that Hotz has thwarted its legal discovery at every turn and that "Hotz had deliberately removed integral components of his impounded hard drives prior to delivering them to a third party neutral and Hotz is now in South America." -- http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/23/sony-says-ps-3-hacker-geohot-has-fled-to-south-america/ It's really hard to find what words are true and not, there is alot of pro hotz speils on the net misquoting Sony and even then one I quoted seems a bit twisted from what I understand went down. When the Hard-drives were delivered the 3rd party reported to Sony it was missing parts for them to complete a full investigation of wich Sony then said "Yo Hotz hand over EVERYTHING this time" and he did.
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PBSnipes

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#116 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

I can't say anything definitive either way to who's at fault in the South America debacle (although from where I'm sitting it does seem like Sony was trying to perpetuate the rumour; after all, it's not like playing into the idea of "Hotz is on vacation after soliciting donations for his legal defence" angle has done him much good), but this article and a post by the author in the comments section makes it pretty clear Sony was trying to deliberately mislead the court (and by extension, media) into thinking Hotz had tampered with evidence. Specifically:

I actually saw the communication between the lawyers and the third-party talking about the hard drives. It was explained quickly, resolved amicably, and then recontextualized by Sony in their official filing. It was a pretty scuzzy move, and seemed to be deliberately misleading.Ben Kuchera

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KungfuKitten

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#117 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

Whoever I support, I don't support Sony in this. They took it too far with their paranoia.
Of course I support the customer, since customers are by definition more important than companies.
I also support the hackers. I see them as a necessity without whom we would end up completely at the whim of companies. This is because I don't view the law as adequate protection for consumers, as I believe the laws are slowly being influenced by the power of companies. And I just hope consumers won't be hurt much in this weird tug of war.

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Espada12

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#118 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

Whoever I support, I don't support Sony in this. They took it too far with their paranoia.
Of course I support the customer, since customers are by definition more important than companies.
I also support the hackers. I see them as a necessity without whom we would end up completely at the whim of companies. This is because I don't view the law as adequate protection for consumers, as I believe the laws are slowly being influenced by the power of companies. And I just hope consumers won't be hurt much in this weird tug of war.

KungfuKitten

Normally I'd agree here, but in this case, I cannot. The hackers are simply making us at the whim of them rather than the companies. People buy consoles because of their closed nature, it's one thing when a hacker is doing something that affects him personally and showing others how to do it(I mean who is a jail broken iphone going to affect?), but when you do something that may or does affect the experience for other users who simply want what sony provides then it becomes a problem.

At that point the legit consumers are who get affected, and that's where hackers lose their claim of doing it for the consumer. The only things that have come out of this has been piracy and hacks made for PSN trophies and games. How is that exactly helping the consumer? Infact it brings down our PSN expierence and in general makes PSN feel extremely unsafe to store information to make purchases through.

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finalfantasy94

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#119 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

Whoever I support, I don't support Sony in this. They took it too far with their paranoia.
Of course I support the customer, since customers are by definition more important than companies.
I also support the hackers. I see them as a necessity without whom we would end up completely at the whim of companies. This is because I don't view the law as adequate protection for consumers, as I believe the laws are slowly being influenced by the power of companies. And I just hope consumers won't be hurt much in this weird tug of war.

KungfuKitten

Just no. They effect the consumers thus they are sleezy to. In what way they affect the comsumer you ask they can make certain games a pain to play lets not forget the mishap with MW2 where regular comsumers were forced to play in broken matches cause of them. Just cause hackers are sometimes labledthe "underdog" or "little guy" doesint make them any better.

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Timstuff

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#120 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts
Sony went so hard and fast after geohotz on sketchy laws that they embarrassed themselves. They should have gone after cheaters, not the hackers, because you can't reverse pandora's box, all you can do is mitigate the damage. No matter what they did to the hackers, it could not prevent what they have already done. With Pandora's box open, catching the one who opened it may allow them to save some face or some such, but it will never stop the spread it had caused. It is now up to PSN devs or game devs to try to prevent cheaters, as its the only thing they can really do to prevent further damage. I don't need to side with anyone. 110million
Sony wants to cut down the tree, not just clip the branches one at a time. I can't say I blame them. Bringing down Hotz will be a huge victory no matter how you slice it, because that's one less enemy they'll have undermining their new security efforts.
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Jankarcop

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#121 Jankarcop
Member since 2011 • 11058 Posts

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

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finalfantasy94

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#122 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Jankarcop

Yea I dont why would anyone support them or see them as heroes when they are affecting regular consumers as well.

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Ilikemyname420

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#123 Ilikemyname420
Member since 2007 • 5147 Posts

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Jankarcop
I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.
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finalfantasy94

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#124 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Ilikemyname420

I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack it is fine?

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Ilikemyname420

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#125 Ilikemyname420
Member since 2007 • 5147 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"][QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

finalfantasy94

I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack is fine?

.....You think information should be illegal? And as far as tools go it would be like suing a company that makes coat hangers because someone happened to use a coat hanger to break into your car.
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Espada12

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#126 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Ilikemyname420

I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

So what about those people who made cheats for games and ruin the experience of others. Do you agree with that?

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KungfuKitten

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#127 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"]

Whoever I support, I don't support Sony in this. They took it too far with their paranoia.
Of course I support the customer, since customers are by definition more important than companies.
I also support the hackers. I see them as a necessity without whom we would end up completely at the whim of companies. This is because I don't view the law as adequate protection for consumers, as I believe the laws are slowly being influenced by the power of companies. And I just hope consumers won't be hurt much in this weird tug of war.

finalfantasy94

Just no. They effect the consumers thus they are sleezy to. In what way they affect the comsumer you ask they can make certain games a pain to play lets not forget the mishap with MW2 where regular comsumers were forced to play in broken matches cause of them. Just cause hackers are sometimes labled the "underdog" or "little guy" doesint make them any better.

I think we are talking about different kinds of hackers :P I do not support ingame hackers in any way shape or form. Let's not make that mistake.

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finalfantasy94

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#128 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

[QUOTE="finalfantasy94"]

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"] I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.Ilikemyname420

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack is fine?

.....You think information should be illegal? And as far as tools go it would be like suing a company that makes coat hangers because someone happened to use a coat hanger to break into your car.

Yea execpt for the fact this was 1 man who publicly said here are the tools and info how to hack it now dont use to screw people now. You have to have a mind of a 2 year old to think everyone is going to use it for the same reason you did. If he would have kept it private none of this would happened. No intsted he yelled in a megaphone.

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Ilikemyname420

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#129 Ilikemyname420
Member since 2007 • 5147 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"][QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Espada12

I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

So what about those people who made cheats for games and ruin the experience of others. Do you agree with that?

They should be able to make whatever cheats they want. However when they sign into online services (XBL, PSN etc) it obviously shouldn't be allowed there however it is already the case that they can and will be kicked off the service if they use them there.
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KC_Hokie

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#130 KC_Hokie
Member since 2006 • 16099 Posts
I'm going with the hackers in this case because Sony took away features advertised since the beginning by the Sony CEO and Chairman.
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Ilikemyname420

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#131 Ilikemyname420
Member since 2007 • 5147 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"][QUOTE="finalfantasy94"]

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack is fine?

finalfantasy94

.....You think information should be illegal? And as far as tools go it would be like suing a company that makes coat hangers because someone happened to use a coat hanger to break into your car.

Yea execpt for the fact this was 1 man who publicly said here are the tools and info how to hack it now dont use to screw people now. You have to have a mind of a 2 year old to think everyone is going to use it for the same reason you did. If he would have kept it private none of this would happened. No intsted he yelled in a megaphone.

Granted it had some obvious uses that CAN be illegal, however it's the pirates who in fact did the pirating not the creator of the software that allowed them to do it. I can make illegal copies of movies music etc using nero but I don't think the creators of nero should be brought to court, if anything it should be me (if I did infact make illegal copies with it).
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Espada12

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#132 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

They should be able to make whatever cheats they want. However when they sign into online services (XBL, PSN etc) it obviously shouldn't be allowed there however it is already the case that they can and will be kicked off the service if they use them there.Ilikemyname420

They aren't kicked off because they can unban themselves. So we have legit consumers have to deal with them.

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Pug-Nasty

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#133 Pug-Nasty
Member since 2009 • 8508 Posts

Sony and the consumers.

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KC_Hokie

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#134 KC_Hokie
Member since 2006 • 16099 Posts

Sony and the consumers.

Pug-Nasty
Well I say hackers and consumers then.
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Ilikemyname420

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#135 Ilikemyname420
Member since 2007 • 5147 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"]They should be able to make whatever cheats they want. However when they sign into online services (XBL, PSN etc) it obviously shouldn't be allowed there however it is already the case that they can and will be kicked off the service if they use them there.Espada12

They aren't kicked off because they can unban themselves. So we have legit consumers have to deal with them.

There was a theory floating around that you could copy a console ID from one console to another and unban it, first it would require access to another console ID and second it hasn't been done yet to my knowledge.

But if they do infact find a way to unban themselves and get back onto PSN, it would be unauthorized access (since they don't own the service they're breaking into) and that would be illegal and I wouldn't stand by that.

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markop2003

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#136 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Jankarcop
Hurting PS3 owners = hurting PS3's reputation = less sales of PS3 gear It makes perfect sense.
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jeffwulf

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#137 jeffwulf
Member since 2004 • 1569 Posts

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"][QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

finalfantasy94

I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack it is fine?

I fully believe this is fine. Using it for piracy or ruining the enjoyment of others isn't okay, but releasing how to open your PS3's software is 100% ethical in my book, even if it leads to people doing those things.
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Sandvichman

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#138 Sandvichman
Member since 2010 • 4006 Posts
[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

Sony and the consumers.

KC_Hokie
Well I say hackers and consumers then.

I was banned from black ops by a hacker, how is is this benefiting me as a consumer?
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Sandvichman

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#139 Sandvichman
Member since 2010 • 4006 Posts
[QUOTE="finalfantasy94"]

[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"] I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.jeffwulf

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack it is fine?

I fully believe this is fine. Using it for piracy or ruining the enjoyment of others isn't okay, but releasing how to open your PS3's software is 100% ethical in my book, even if it leads to people doing those things.

This is like saying you would give a gun to a maniac, saying he should keep it incase someone might try to rob him.
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DarthJohnova

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#140 DarthJohnova
Member since 2010 • 4599 Posts
[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

Ilikemyname420
I stand by Geohotz because I think people should be able to use what they buy how they see fit, frankly he didn't do anything illegal and Sony has gone overboard with the civil case against him. I don't agree with Anonymous because they are trying to keep Sony and their customers from using their own servers, it's illegal and is pretty hypocritical.

I don't care what he does in his home with his consoles but releasing the details of the skeleton key and on the internet over such a massive scale is damn irresponsible. Some say that it's not his fault because he merely created the hack, whereas the pirates who use it are to blame but lets be serious here, relinquishing responsibility for something which he has clearly enabled is ignorant.
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DarthJohnova

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#141 DarthJohnova
Member since 2010 • 4599 Posts

[QUOTE="jeffwulf"][QUOTE="finalfantasy94"]

So publicly giving the info and tools on how to hack it is fine?

Sandvichman

I fully believe this is fine. Using it for piracy or ruining the enjoyment of others isn't okay, but releasing how to open your PS3's software is 100% ethical in my book, even if it leads to people doing those things.

This is like saying you would give a gun to a maniac, saying he should keep it incase someone might try to rob him.

Lol i was just about to say that :P

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finalfantasy94

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#142 finalfantasy94
Member since 2004 • 27442 Posts

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

why would ANYONE support the hackers? they are only hurting regular gamers, not SONY.

They even are targeting Sony's COE children. Not that its gonna hurt them.

markop2003

Hurting PS3 owners = hurting PS3's reputation = less sales of PS3 gear It makes perfect sense.

Well if the hackers are trying to make themselves look like saints and the underdog fighting the big corp they arent doint it right. Since this will make everyone hate the hackers and not support them in anyway.

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DragoonKain1687

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#143 DragoonKain1687
Member since 2009 • 256 Posts

I'm siding with Sony from day one for a few reasons.
1.I get sick of dishonest thieves wish they would just admit the real reason they did things.
2.anything to keep the online arena and my fun safe..

WilliamRLBaker

Im with you, but for other reasons.

1. Hacking, wether hackers want to admit it or not, is for a single purpose of Pirating games. For every 10 hacked consoles, only 1 would be for "Other OS" purposes.

2. In the end, most never even used Other OS due to lack of resources.

3. After all this, the only ones that were injured, as usual, were bystanders.

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James161324

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#144 James161324
Member since 2009 • 8315 Posts

I don't care either way, but if you want your ps3 to do w/e go for it

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Deathtransit

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#145 Deathtransit
Member since 2007 • 3086 Posts

I'm siding with Sony from day one for a few reasons.
1.I get sick of dishonest thieves wish they would just admit the real reason they did things.
2.anything to keep the online arena and my fun safe..

WilliamRLBaker
I agree (strangely). The selfish, self-centered pricks have to ruin it for everybody. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you're entitled to it. And I suspect most who defend hacking do so so they won't have to pay for every game, but won't admit it.
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turtlethetaffer

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#146 turtlethetaffer
Member since 2009 • 18973 Posts

This is my view of hackers: Go ahead and hack the crap out of any game you want... as long as it doesn't interfere with others' enjoyment. Once that begins, I want hackers outta here.

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HaloinventedFPS

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#147 HaloinventedFPS
Member since 2010 • 4738 Posts

Sony shouldnt have removed OtherOS

but Console gamers like to be treated like **** all the time anyway

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blue_hazy_basic

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#148 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6307284.html?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B1

The good news for PS3 owners is that it appears as if Anonymous will be backing off its hostilities. An update to the loose-knit organization's website claims it would no longer be directing its efforts at bringing down services such as the PlayStation Network.

"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time," the update reads. "Sony's official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers."

"Anonymous is on your side, standing up for your rights," the message continues. "We are not aiming to attack customers of Sony. This attack is aimed solely at Sony, and we will try our best to not affect the gamers, as this would defeat the purpose of our actions. If we did inconvenience users, please know that this was not our goal."

The group went on to note that its campaign against Sony will continue "until we are satisfied with the outcome."

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Pug-Nasty

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#149 Pug-Nasty
Member since 2009 • 8508 Posts

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

Sony and the consumers.

KC_Hokie

Well I say hackers and consumers then.

A consumer and business have a symbiotic relationship. These hackers attempt undermine that relationship, and benefit nobody. They damage the product itself while making consumers not want to spend their money.

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razgriz_101

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#150 razgriz_101
Member since 2007 • 16875 Posts

[QUOTE="HaloinventedFPS"]

Sony shouldnt have removed OtherOS

but Console gamers like to be treated like **** all the time anyway

[/QUOTE

or the people so desperate for that feature shouldnt have updated firmware.

Sony said it time and time again, if you wish to use this feature then you shouldnt update your firmware.Dont see how hard it is to understand.Mind you hope the little scumbags get whats coming to em.Hiding behind anonimity only gets you so far, would be funny if someone leaks an anon's private info and see how they love being the target of hate mail and crank calls.

Really dont see what they are going to achieve by being little brats spitting the dummy and having literally no rational logic or sense hell even the average brain function of a sane person.

What i dont get is half these people attacking sony are most likely bandwagoning as usual with anonymous to try be hip and relevent cause what little fad they had just doesnt cut it any more.