Hacking - The Legal Grounds.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6307284.html?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B1

The good news for PS3 owners is that it appears as if Anonymous will be backing off its hostilities. An update to the loose-knit organization's website claims it would no longer be directing its efforts at bringing down services such as the PlayStation Network.

"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time," the update reads. "Sony's official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers."

"Anonymous is on your side, standing up for your rights," the message continues. "We are not aiming to attack customers of Sony. This attack is aimed solely at Sony, and we will try our best to not affect the gamers, as this would defeat the purpose of our actions. If we did inconvenience users, please know that this was not our goal."

The group went on to note that its campaign against Sony will continue "until we are satisfied with the outcome."

blue_hazy_basic

they stand up for my rights but attack services i used.Talk bout totally ironic? they attack the PSN and consumers use it as the only way of interacting with one another...totally ironic they have attacked PSN servers in their little holy crusade of idiocy.

Operation payback is just a bunch of pirate baww aswell essentially all they are looking out for is themselves and their own little sect and claim they are everyone.IF i think theres something wrong i'll go against it myself not get some dumb script kiddy to do it without any form of rationality and sense personally attacking people purely casue they work for sony aswell.

Hackers deserve everything they get when caught. I hope Sony throws the book at Geo :lol:

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

I'm siding with Sony from day one for a few reasons.
1.I get sick of dishonest thieves wish they would just admit the real reason they did things.
2.anything to keep the online arena and my fun safe..

DragoonKain1687

Im with you, but for other reasons.

1. Hacking, wether hackers want to admit it or not, is for a single purpose of Pirating games. For every 10 hacked consoles, only 1 would be for "Other OS" purposes.

2. In the end, most never even used Other OS due to lack of resources.

3. After all this, the only ones that were injured, as usual, were bystanders.

More like 1 for every 10,000 (piracy to Other OS)

I'm siding with Sony from day one for a few reasons.
1.I get sick of dishonest thieves wish they would just admit the real reason they did things.
2.anything to keep the online arena and my fun safe..

WilliamRLBaker

rarely do i agree with you, but this is one of those rare instances when i totally agree with you

The least evil ones.

The least evil ones.

mitu123

That's why I chose the "Unsure" option :P

Hmmm... and here I thought the overwhelming majority would vote for the consumer. I never realized so many people liked being bent over by a corporation.dzimm

When Sony loses Money. There is Less money to do RD. Less money to gamble with (Selling a console for a lose), Maybe losing a few third parties.

GeoHot and the lot are merely looking attention. Wanted Linux back? Why'd you upgrade in the first place? Oh, He needed to access PSN lolz

I supported them restoring OtherOS, basically everything they did after that, nope.ferret-gamer

Tbh, I don't entirely follow the logic there, since it was the hackers' fault that OtherOS was removed in the first place.

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]I supported them restoring OtherOS, basically everything they did after that, nope.Planeforger

Tbh, I don't entirely follow the logic there, since it was the hackers' fault that OtherOS was removed in the first place.

[QUOTE="Planeforger"]

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]I supported them restoring OtherOS, basically everything they did after that, nope.ferret-gamer

Tbh, I don't entirely follow the logic there, since it was the hackers' fault that OtherOS was removed in the first place.

The thing is that, like planeforger said, the hackers were the reason sony removed it. They were using it as an access route to start piracy.

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"][QUOTE="Planeforger"]

Tbh, I don't entirely follow the logic there, since it was the hackers' fault that OtherOS was removed in the first place.

Espada12

The thing is that, like planeforger said, the hackers were the reason sony removed it. They were using it as an access route to start piracy.

then they should have worked on the security instead of removing OtherOSferret-gamer

Well looking at it from sony point of view, why should they? It would just be easier to remove it since I'm pretty sure, the majority of their consumer base doesn't use it and they have no idea how the hackers are using it either (at the time). So instead of figuring it out just remove it.

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]

then they should have worked on the security instead of removing OtherOSEspada12

Well looking at it from sony point of view, why should they? It would just be easier to remove it since I'm pretty sure, the majority of their consumer base doesn't use it and they have no idea how the hackers are using it either (at the time). So instead of figuring it out just remove it.

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6307284.html?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B1

The good news for PS3 owners is that it appears as if Anonymous will be backing off its hostilities. An update to the loose-knit organization's website claims it would no longer be directing its efforts at bringing down services such as the PlayStation Network.

"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time," the update reads. "Sony's official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers."

"Anonymous is on your side, standing up for your rights," the message continues. "We are not aiming to attack customers of Sony. This attack is aimed solely at Sony, and we will try our best to not affect the gamers, as this would defeat the purpose of our actions. If we did inconvenience users, please know that this was not our goal."

The group went on to note that its campaign against Sony will continue "until we are satisfied with the outcome."

razgriz_101

they stand up for my rights but attack services i used.Talk bout totally ironic? they attack the PSN and consumers use it as the only way of interacting with one another...totally ironic they have attacked PSN servers in their little holy crusade of idiocy.

Operation payback is just a bunch of pirate baww aswell essentially all they are looking out for is themselves and their own little sect and claim they are everyone.IF i think theres something wrong i'll go against it myself not get some dumb script kiddy to do it without any form of rationality and sense personally attacking people purely casue they work for sony aswell.

lol I guess they finally found a brain. Commiting the actions they did didint make them look any more innocent if anything it made them look even more evil. I mean it seemed like they totally lacked logic. How do we get back at sony and show them not to pick on us and make us look like victum. by screwing every ps3 owner of course it!. Yea love that logic.

Good for them. I didn't want them to remove it and i am happy that it was restored by the hackers.ferret-gamer

Well why didn't you want them to remove it? :s

I haven't actually seen a legitimate reason why anyone should be on the hackers side; sorry but 'freedom' (anarchy) isn't a good enough excuse for me. Neither is crying about them removing other OS, it's hardly a reason to start some sort of strange crusade. And finally, moaning about them using 'TEH CORPORASHUNN POWERR!!1!1!' is completely bizarre as they're defending themselves as a company against script kiddies who threw their dummies out of the pram.

I haven't actually seen a legitimate reason why anyone should be on the hackers side; sorry but 'freedom' (anarchy) isn't a good enough excuse for me. Neither is crying about them removing other OS, it's hardly a reason to start some sort of strange crusade. And finally, moaning about them using 'TEH CORPORASHUNN POWERR!!1!1!' is completely bizarre as they're defending themselves as a company against script kiddies who threw their dummies out of the pram.

DarthJohnova

Sony says I can't use otherOS on the PS3, the next thing you know they will be telling me I can't turn my PS3 into a bed for my ferret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3OmE5gfbPU

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]Good for them. I didn't want them to remove it and i am happy that it was restored by the hackers.Espada12

Well why didn't you want them to remove it? :s

The funny thing is Sony removed Linux to prevent piracy, even though no one was actually using it to pirate games since part of the Ps3 hardware was locked off from Linux and thus you couldn't run any of the games. The move caused hackers to break open the system to allow linux again, but also had the side effect that allowed people to play pirated games.

Had Sony not removed Linux Jailbreak would not exist, and if Jailbreak didn't exist then neither would the pirating of PS3 games......Sony shot themselves right in the foot.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]Good for them. I didn't want them to remove it and i am happy that it was restored by the hackers.kuraimen

Well why didn't you want them to remove it? :s

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Well why didn't you want them to remove it? :s

Espada12

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

Still doesn't matter. What matters most here is the principle. A company can't advertise and sell a machine saying it has a feature to then take it away once people bought it.kuraimen

Surely there must be exceptions to that principle.
For example, if that feature turned out to be damaging to the product, or would compromise the security of the product, shouldn't a company be allowed to modify those advertised features?

To put it another way, lets say that they advertised and sold a PS3 with a credit card slot - some amazing new feature which would streamline online shopping. And lets say that, a few years down the line, a group of hackers worked out a way of compromising that system in order to steal any PS3 user's credit card info.

Surely in that scenario, Sony should be able (if not obliged) to send out an update which would remove that feature, even if it was an advertised feature that a large number of users liked?

In any case, it seems like the big legal/moral question is "Does a consumer's right to advertised features override a company's right to take necessary steps to improve the security of their digital products?". And...that's really a matter for the courts to decide.

The funny thing is Sony removed Linux to prevent piracy, even though no one was actually using it to pirate games since part of the Ps3 hardware was locked off from Linux and thus you couldn't run any of the games. The move caused hackers to break open the system to allow linux again, but also had the side effect that allowed people to play pirated games.

Had Sony not removed Linux Jailbreak would not exist, and if Jailbreak didn't exist then neither would the pirating of PS3 games......Sony shot themselves right in the foot.

Ilikemyname420

I think it's safe to say that the hackers would have found a way to jailbreak the system regardless of whether or not OtherOS was there. Maybe the removal of OtherOS sped up that process, or maybe it slowed it down, but it was almost an inevitable outcome either way.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Maybe because he used it and was something he paid for when he got the machine?kuraimen

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Maybe because he used it and was something he paid for when he got the machine?kuraimen

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

I think it's safe to say that the hackers would have found a way to jailbreak the system regardless of whether or not OtherOS was there. Maybe the removal of OtherOS sped up that process, or maybe it slowed it down, but it was almost an inevitable outcome either way. Planeforger

Ahhh yes but then what was the point of removing Linux, if Linux itself wouldn't cause piracy and the system was going to get jailbroken anyways? It still doesn't make any sense from Sony's end.Ilikemyname420

Weren't they responding to an immediate threat to their system? A few months before they removed OtherOS, GeoHot was claiming that he had hacked the PS3.

So it makes sense that they'd want to crack down on any weaknesses in their security, if only to try to slow the pirates down.

Hackers.. I have been a PC gamer for well over a decade.. And these developers need to adapt.. This was a common thing to happen that should have been fully expected.. But the way they are going about it is in fact screwing the legitimate purchaser.. sSubZerOo

Are you talking about Sony there, or the hackers? Because you'd be right either way. Haven't you heard that some of the more popular online games (such as the Call of Duty games) have been ruined by cheaters using hacks? Aren't you aware that the hackers shut down PSN for a while recently? And that's not even getting into the piracy/lost sales argument...

In the end I have no concern what so ever for these gaming industries.. The gaming industry is growing not shrinking, its the same old crying with Hollywood.. In how they claim they are losing so much money.. If thats the case than why is Hollywood and the gaming industry bigger than ever? How is this a excuse to use ineffective, expensive, or tedious methods that harm the legitimate purchasers the most.. sSubZerOo

It's entirely possible that they could be losing heaps of money to piracy while still growing. The fact that they're still making money doesn't justify piracy in any way, shape or form.

I think the only valid complaint there is the archaic ways in which Sony are responding to threats, but at the same time I can see a necessity for it, especially when the hackers could more easily get around less harsh methods.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

general_KDI

So you are accusing me of pirating PS3 games without even knowing who I am to justify your point? charming :roll:

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Erm, with a PC like that.. I highly doubt it.

DerekLoffin

The exchange was: if you choose this feature, we take away this one but if you choose this we take away the other. Either way it is bad because I paid for both features.

The Windows 8 example would be valid if Windows 8 advertised and sold it with DOS and then it is taken away.

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] Still doesn't matter. What matters most here is the principle. A company can't advertise and sell a machine saying it has a feature to then take it away once people bought it.kuraimen

The exchange was: if you choose this feature, we take away this one but if you choose this we take away the other. Either way it is bad because I paid for both features.

The Windows 8 example would be valid if Windows 8 advertised and sold it with DOS and then it is taken away.

Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.percech

[QUOTE="percech"]Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.Jynxzor

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"][QUOTE="percech"]Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.percech

hmmm. I never get in these types of disscussions but theres one thing that catches my attention. When Sony removed otherOS it was entirely optional to do so, but you would lose PSN access if did not update. But to my understanding dont certain games come with firmware updates on the disk already? Forcing people to update or not be able to play that game at all.

someone care to share some light on this? Or is Sony basically giving the middle finger to certion users.

hmmm. I never get in these types of disscussions but theres one thing that catches my attention. When Sony removed otherOS it was entirely optional to do so, but you would lose PSN access if did not update. But to my understanding dont certain games come with firmware updates on the disk already? Forcing people to update or not be able to play that game at all.

someone care to share some light on this? Or is Sony basically giving the middle finger to certion users.

Deadbeatcobra

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"] The thing is, said feature wasn't taken away. The users were offered an exchange, and if you clicked the 'i accept' button, you agreed to that exchange. It sucks, no doubt, but the principle of the things also says we can't demand that this sort of thing doesn't happen, because the implications are FAR wider than OtherOS. People could start suing MS because windows 8 can't use a DOS 1.0 app. DerekLoffin

The exchange was: if you choose this feature, we take away this one but if you choose this we take away the other. Either way it is bad because I paid for both features.

The Windows 8 example would be valid if Windows 8 advertised and sold it with DOS and then it is taken away.

Eh that's basically what I said. Access to PSN is a feature and OtherOS is a feature. I paid for both features but I have to choose only one. Not fair deal. And how is it a fall out to software development? the same can be done with cellphones and computers there's no fall out whatsoever.

Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.percech

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"][QUOTE="kuraimen"]

The exchange was: if you choose this feature, we take away this one but if you choose this we take away the other. Either way it is bad because I paid for both features.

The Windows 8 example would be valid if Windows 8 advertised and sold it with DOS and then it is taken away.

kuraimen

Eh that's basically what I said. Access to PSN is a feature and OtherOS is a feature. I paid for both features but I have to choose only one. Not fair deal. And how is it a fall out to software development? the same can be done with cellphones and computers there's no fall out whatsoever.

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"][QUOTE="percech"]Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.percech

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"][QUOTE="percech"]Only in System Wars where consumers get less support by fellow consumers over Sony. This place is sad and filled with a bunch of members of Sony Defense Force.percech

Yea lets support the hackers who said well show that big corp by doing what you ask screwing PSN users and making it that they cant log in thier psn. Just cause these guys arent sony doesint make them any less scum.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"] No, sorry, you like to think it is that way, but it isn't. The exchange was, you can keep everything you have, and that's that. Or, you can get continued access to PSN, and new games that will require this new OS, but you lose access to OtherOS. Take it or leave it. Advertisement for OtherOS, once the firmware that didn't offer it come up, ended, and it specifies you need the earlier firmware. It is a sucky situation, but one we pretty much are stuck letting them have because without it the legal fall out is huge in all of software development. DerekLoffin

Eh that's basically what I said. Access to PSN is a feature and OtherOS is a feature. I paid for both features but I have to choose only one. Not fair deal. And how is it a fall out to software development? the same can be done with cellphones and computers there's no fall out whatsoever.