Hardcores are killing console gaming

The problem is too many people throwing around the "hardcore" label when %99 of them aren't hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers love games for the gameplay and experience they provide. What you are talking about is posers who only want the AAA titles so they can brag about all the great games they own. What you are talking about are people who are hardcore for certain genres only...like a hardcore FPSer fan, or hardcore RPG fan. They are still "hardcore" but not hardcore gamers because they don't care about games, just a very specific genre of games.ZIMdoom

so true.

Man, I hate sniping on GUFU, but your entire defense of Nintendo revolves around an era that completely destroyed the console market... you've listed trends that occured right before the collapse of the console market due to oversaturation with low-budget titles. Arcade gaming became a boom-bust fad in the US, and the influx of "casuals" and "non-traditionals" doomed the console market as game developers started pushing low-budget titles to the shelf. The introduction of titles on the Wii that start at $29.99 or below is the beginning of this trend.

The real protection the console gaming market has against Nintendo isn't the safeguard that licensing was supposed to provide, but rather that the Xbox 360 and PS3 are getting hardcore support right now. If the Wii collapses its market, it's not the Atari situation - there will be a huge backlash, but Sony and Microsoft have the resources to gain from it in the long run.

But again, Nintendo hurts console gaming - pushing hardcores out of the market leaves them dependant on a less reliable audience. Those hardcore gamers haven't completely left console gaming, they're mainly on other consoles, but I see them as being the last defense against a market collapse if things go south. A more negative person could see them scurying to the haven of PC gaming, but there are core titles on the 360 and PS3 they still enjoy, and I can see recovering publishers turning to those platforms to rebuild.subrosian

So basically you're saying that the non-traditional gamers aren't as worthy to Nintendo as hardcores are to their companies, so eventually the non-traditional gamers will leave them and hardcores will be all that are left? Well that's a possiblity, for the time being it's helping gaming. The question is will the non traditional gamer eventually want more in their games.

If so, I can see the industry becoming more hardcore again, seeing as how everyone wants hardcore games you have to make a good game, or you'll lose money and gain no profit on a game no one wants.

If casuals leave gaming, there will be a problem. The industry will focus on the hardcore full time to avoid another situation like that, but then you only got 2% of gamers intrested, and the hill of gamers wanting more will keep going and hurt gaming.

Finally if casuals never change their intrest, while Sony and Microsoft won't "Die", they'll have to focus on casuals unless risk losing their gaming division to Nintendo.

I think personally the reason everyone thinks casuals will kill gaming is because there's never been a case where one system won solely because of casuals. You could agree that the PS2 appealed to casuals, but it tried appealing to everyone. In past gens there would be 1 system (Neo-Geo, Jaguar, 3DO) that would try to get the hardcore gamer, but would always lose to the less powerful systems. Now we see a gen where 2 systems are suffering from that fate, while only 1 is doing well. Plus unlike past gens the Wii isn't as big as a step in technology as past systems that won the gen were.

And so far the only $30 Wii game I've seen is RE4. Do you know any others?

That's the same thing that Nintendo is trying to accomplish, they're trying to go back to the days where the most hardcore games were SMB and Pac-Man, yet were easy to pick up and play. CJL13

[QUOTE="X_CAPCOM_X"][QUOTE="XaosII"]

Imagine if the only songs that existed were the stuff that was played only on MTV.

That would be such a boring world of music. I wouldn't want gaming to be that way. I dont think anyone here believe casual/non-gamers will kill gaming, just that they'll make hardcore games very rare. It'll kill their gaming preference.

Vandalvideo

Amen to that. No crappy music for people with a good taste in music, and no crappy games for hardcore players.

Give us something worth our time. If it is not good, then don't bother.

Hahahaha You misread... No crappy things for people who like good things.

Hardcore gamers like good games, and people with a good taste in music like good music. Nowhere in my post does it say "No one can play crappy games," or anything along the lines....

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]The problem is too many people throwing around the "hardcore" label when %99 of them aren't hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers love games for the gameplay and experience they provide. What you are talking about is posers who only want the AAA titles so they can brag about all the great games they own. What you are talking about are people who are hardcore for certain genres only...like a hardcore FPSer fan, or hardcore RPG fan. They are still "hardcore" but not hardcore gamers because they don't care about games, just a very specific genre of games.joel_101

so true.

Quoted for Truth. If you're going to stick to one genre at least know the good games. I mean hyping Eternal Sonata and Halo 3 is the "greatest games of the genre" is just no.

I think the TC has a point. Gaming has grown as games have become more accessible. The larger the market the better it is for us.

As said before those of us who are capable of rational thought don't think casual gamers/games are hurting the industry. I am seeing lots and playing a lot more casual games that I find fun that would never have existed before.

And remember, one of the most popular PC games of all time is geared towards casual players, World of Warcraft. Those of us spouting hate for casual games probably luuuuv WoW.

As the market of casuals grows so will the number of "hardcore" gamers. While the number of casuals will always be greater than that of the "hardcore" crowd there will always be enough "hardcore" gamers to justify more "hardcore" games.

Hahahaha You misread... No crappy things for people who like good things.Hardcore gamers like good games, people with a good taste in music like good music. Nowhere in my post does it say "No one can play crappy games," or amything along the lines....X_CAPCOM_X

[QUOTE="joel_101"]

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]The problem is too many people throwing around the "hardcore" label when %99 of them aren't hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers love games for the gameplay and experience they provide. What you are talking about is posers who only want the AAA titles so they can brag about all the great games they own. What you are talking about are people who are hardcore for certain genres only...like a hardcore FPSer fan, or hardcore RPG fan. They are still "hardcore" but not hardcore gamers because they don't care about games, just a very specific genre of games.Dencore

so true.

Quoted for Truth. If you're going to stick to one genre at least know the good games. I mean hyping Eternal Sonata and Halo 3 is the "greatest games of the genre" is just no.

QFT. I couldn't have said it better myself and I am glad other gamers other than myself are saying the same thing.

[QUOTE="CJL13"]

Think about it, we constantly want games to best the best damn things ever. Those games take time, and they are few and far between for developers.

Think back to the 80s where arcade games were coming out like crazy and everyone wanted to play them. That's the same thing that Nintendo is trying to accomplish, they're trying to go back to the days where the most hardcore games were SMB and Pac-Man, yet were easy to pick up and play.

Imagine if only hardcore games were made, we'd have hardly any games and though they'd be good, they would appeal to about 2% of people. If a game sold bad, the developer that madeit would be pretty much screwed. Though there are measures to prevent that now, it'd be pretty much what was going on in 83. Now if you try to make games that appeal to casuals/non-gamers, sure 2% of people won't buy them, but the percent that will will be a hell of a lot higher than 2%, plus those games would be cheaper.

Casuals and non-gamers won't kill gaming, they outnumber the hardcores, with game sales increasing, it's coming clear that casuals and non-gamers are preserving gaming. It's a harsh reality to accept, but the casualization of gaming may just be what can help it. Hardcores like me have become obsolete and needy.

subject117

I think the opposite is true about the crash in the 80's. There were too many second rate games being made.

Well the case in the 80s was that people were making games that would get like a 2 on Gamespot and slapped licenses on them, then made several copies of them expecting the license to do all the selling.

[QUOTE="CJL13"]

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.JayPee89

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

what types of games does epic develops?

epic is a casual developer. who cater to casual gamers like you

I just find it funny how so many people think they know what it means to be a hardcore gamer. I don't think half of these people who cliam it can even come close to a true hardcore gamer. So sad. People always thinking they know how to make a cake just because they got a little taste of the frosting, lol. Typical.

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.CJL13

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

Games have gotten better over the last 20 years. You'd have to be a complete fool to think that just because something's old fashioned means it's automatically better.Timstuff

I never said a game has to be old fashioned to be good, only that the casual pick up and play games will sell more than the hardcore complex games, regardless of how good the game is. If a game can appeal to hardcores and casuals by doing a "Easy to pick up, complex to master" style, that game is gonna sell well.

[QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="CJL13"]

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.joel_101

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

what types of games does epic develops?

epic is a casual developer. who cater to casual gamers like you

You are right. UT is played by "hardcore" and casual alike.

Maybe the UT tournys are "hardcore" but GeoW and UT really aren't.

I just find it funny how so many people think they know what it means to be a hardcore gamer. I don't think half of these people who cliam it can even come close to a true hardcore gamer. So sad. People always thinking they know how to make a cake just because they got a little taste of the frosting, lol. Typical.

OpGenesis

Nice first post!

[QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="CJL13"]

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.joel_101

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

what types of games does epic develops?

epic is a casual developer. who cater to casual gamers like you

What are you? A MORON? Epic Games is anything but a creator of "casual" games. The "Unreal" franchise itself it a title synonomous with hardcore FPS fans. And Gears of War is anything but a "casual" game. Like I said before. Typical.

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]The problem is too many people throwing around the "hardcore" label when %99 of them aren't hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers love games for the gameplay and experience they provide. What you are talking about is posers who only want the AAA titles so they can brag about all the great games they own. What you are talking about are people who are hardcore for certain genres only...like a hardcore FPSer fan, or hardcore RPG fan. They are still "hardcore" but not hardcore gamers because they don't care about games, just a very specific genre of games.cametall

so true.

Quoted for Truth. If you're going to stick to one genre at least know the good games. I mean hyping Eternal Sonata and Halo 3 is the "greatest games of the genre" is just no.

QFT. I couldn't have said it better myself and I am glad other gamers other than myself are saying the same thing.

I can't believe they judge a game by a review. :lol: That's so pathetic. Anyone who actually plays games for fun and not hype will tell you that reviews are garbage. Street Fighter III: Third Strike = 7.3? Phoenix Wright: Justice for All = 7.9? Guilty Gear XX 7.9? Madden 8.4? Deus Ex 8.2? Perfect Dark Zero 9.0? Oblivion RPG of the Year? Seriously it's ridiculous. Reviews are based off of appeal and not skill, depth, or quality.

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

Imagine if the only songs that existed were the stuff that was played only on MTV.

That would be such a boring world of music. I wouldn't want gaming to be that way. I dont think anyone here believe casual/non-gamers will kill gaming, just that they'll make hardcore games very rare. It'll kill their gaming preference.

mtron32

thats a bad comparrison, music doesn't take a team of 150+ just to make one song.

Shows how much you know about music.

[QUOTE="OpGenesis"]

I just find it funny how so many people think they know what it means to be a hardcore gamer. I don't think half of these people who cliam it can even come close to a true hardcore gamer. So sad. People always thinking they know how to make a cake just because they got a little taste of the frosting, lol. Typical.

cametall

Nice first post!

Thank you. I might be new here but that's only because I finally decided to create an account. I tried to avoid it for sake of not having to let numerous idots get what is coming to them. Looks like I have a new addiction.

[QUOTE="joel_101"][QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="CJL13"]

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.OpGenesis

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

what types of games does epic develops?

epic is a casual developer. who cater to casual gamers like you

What are you? A MORON? Epic Games is anything but a creator of "casual" games. The "Unreal" franchise itself it a title synonomous with hardcore FPS fans. And Gears of War is anything but a "casual" game. Like I said before. Typical.

There you go. Gears of War is a hardcore and complex game, and it sold 4 million copies. You don't need casual trash to sell well. You need GOOD games.

[QUOTE="cametall"][QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

Reviews are based off of appeal and not skill, depth, or quality.

Dencore

Couldn't agree with you more.

[QUOTE="joel_101"][QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="CJL13"]

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"]We're sorry for wanting a game with depth.OpGenesis

I'm not trying to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for being hardcore, it's just that trying to appeal to hardcores only hurts publishers and developers.

what types of games does epic develops?

epic is a casual developer. who cater to casual gamers like you

What are you? A MORON? Epic Games is anything but a creator of "casual" games. The "Unreal" franchise itself it a title synonomous with hardcore FPS fans. And Gears of War is anything but a "casual" game. Like I said before. Typical.

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

Couldn't agree with you more.

OpGenesis

How Kingdom Hearts outscored Odin Sphere and Halo outscored Counterstrike and everyone believes it, is just an embrassment to show how pathetic the "gaming" community really is.

I also love it how they say "traditional games or games for gamers" are dying because of the Wii when RE4, Monkey Ball, Sonic, Dragon Quest Swords, Super Paper Mario, Zelda, and Red Steel sold in between 150,000-1 million, while all the rushed ports like Far Cry and Prince of Persia failed to break even 50,000. If people would read the charts they'd know this. Anyone who thinks these things are just stupid fanboys. Third party games sell on the Wii, the good games sell, the bad games for the most part don't *bad games sell on the 360 too*, third party is improving with announcements as of the new Tales and Nitrobike and Trauma Center, and the future looks over all bright for the system. Wii's doing nothing wrong fanboys are only afraid of change, they have 2 systems with one being decently successul to deliever their presentation crud and PC to deliever their epic games and tech. stuff.

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

joel_101

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

The way I see it, if hardcore gamers always demand 10 million dollar + budgets for every game from every dev when every game is not a guaranteed million seller, the industry is either going to collapse or developers will have to find new ways to get money (Enter monthly fees and ingame advertisements).

However, casual games brought into the market that are cheap to make and can be sold on the cheap while still gaining back a profit can bring in millions to devs, allowing them to make their one or two blockbusters a year with some moderately budget and deep games in between. Sounds better than expecting high budget epics while bleeding devs dry, don't it?

The fact is that the gaming community (Like I mentioned in a thread a few weeks back) is currently similar to the comic book market of the past that managed to doom itself. Like comic book's flood of super hero comics, hardcore gamers want the epic bloodfests that will never be taken seriously by the rest of the world and they don't care. They just want their new 6 to 8 hour shooting fest at a $60 price point and block out the anybody who will threaten that joy, damn the cost to the industry. Like the comic book industry that was stuck making X-Mens and Supermans, the gaming industry will be driven to the ground if the GEoW of the world was the only thing being made.

dude what????OldParr

exactly.

[QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

Dencore

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

I actually think the UT series on consoles is geared towards a more casual audience. So in that sense yes it is casual.

The PC variation definitely is one of the cornerstones of PC online shooters and has most certainly earned its rank amongst the "hardcore" games. Of course casuals can enjoy it too, but just like Counter Strike you have to play it like a sport to get good at it.

Also without the first Unreal game you may not have the 10+ million dollar budgets that many games have today... for better or for worse.

The way I see it, if hardcore gamers always demand 10 million dollar + budgets for every game from every dev when every game is not a guaranteed million seller, the industry is either going to collapse or developers will have to find new ways to get money (Enter monthly fees and ingame advertisements).

However, casual games brought into the market that are cheap to make and can be sold on the cheap while still gaining back a profit can bring in millions to devs, allowing them to make their one or two blockbusters a year with some moderately budget and deep games in between. Sounds better than expecting high budget epics while bleeding devs dry, don't it?

The fact is that the gaming community (Like I mentioned in a thread a few weeks back) is currently similar to the comic book market of the past that managed to doom itself. Like comic book's flood of super hero comics, hardcore gamers want the epic bloodfests that will never be taken seriously by the rest of the world and they don't care. They just want their new 6 to 8 hour shooting fest at a $60 price point and block out the anybody who will threaten that joy, damn the cost to the industry. Like the comic book industry that was stuck making X-Mens and Supermans, the gaming industry will be driven to the ground if the GEoW of the world was the only thing being made.

Redmoonxl2

Exactly. That's what kills gaming HIGH DEVELOPMENT COSTS. It's what killed Interplay who layed of the creators of Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, and Fallout. It's what killed Trokia. It's what killed Clover, and it's what made big publishers such as Square-Enix to cancel many of their games like Chrono Ressurrection

[QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

Dencore

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

please list epic games you considered hardcore as well as casual games.

[QUOTE="OpGenesis"]

Couldn't agree with you more.

Dencore

How Kingdom Hearts outscored Odin Sphere and Halo outscored Counterstrike and everyone believes it, is just an embrassment to show how pathetic the "gaming" community really is.

I also love it how they say "traditional games or games for gamers" are dying because of the Wii when RE4, Monkey Ball, Sonic, Dragon Quest Swords, Super Paper Mario, Zelda, and Red Steel sold in between 150,000-1 million, while all the rushed ports like Far Cry and Prince of Persia failed to break even 50,000. If people would read the charts they'd know this. Anyone who thinks these things are just stupid fanboys. Third party games sell on the Wii, the good games sell, the bad games for the most part don't *bad games sell on the 360 too*, third party is improving with announcements as of the new Tales and Nitrobike and Trauma Center, and the future looks over all bright for the system. Wii's doing nothing wrong fanboys are only afraid of change, they have 2 systems with one being decently successul to deliever their presentation crud and PC to deliever their epic games and tech. stuff.

I'm not saying really crappy games sell better than really good games, just that games that appeal to casuals will sell more than games that appeal to hardcores. Games like GeOW appeal to both and outsell games that appeal to one audience.

The way I see it, if hardcore gamers always demand 10 million dollar + budgets for every game from every dev when every game is not a guaranteed million seller, the industry is either going to collapse or developers will have to find new ways to get money (Enter monthly fees and ingame advertisements).

However, casual games brought into the market that are cheap to make and can be sold on the cheap while still gaining back a profit can bring in millions to devs, allowing them to make their one or two blockbusters a year with some moderately budget and deep games in between. Sounds better than expecting high budget epics while bleeding devs dry, don't it?

The fact is that the gaming community (Like I mentioned in a thread a few weeks back) is currently similar to the comic book market of the past that managed to doom itself. Like comic book's flood of super hero comics, hardcore gamers want the epic bloodfests that will never be taken seriously by the rest of the world and they don't care. They just want their new 6 to 8 hour shooting fest at a $60 price point and block out the anybody who will threaten that joy, damn the cost to the industry. Like the comic book industry that was stuck making X-Mens and Supermans, the gaming industry will be driven to the ground if the GEoW of the world was the only thing being made.

Redmoonxl2

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

cametall

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

I actually think the UT series on consoles is geared towards a more casual audience. So in that sense yes it is casual.

The PC variation definitely is one of the cornerstones of PC online shooters and has most certainly earned its rank amongst the "hardcore" games. Of course casuals can enjoy it too, but just like Counter Strike you have to play it like a sport to get good at it.

Pretty much EVERY game on consoles these days are geared towards casuals. Want to see REAL hardcore games for your consoles? Buy a Dreamcast, Saturn, or any imported Japanese console.

Core focased Japanese game developers WERE hardcore console gaming. Wait what happened to them? Oh yeah they all had to close their doors, get absorbed by bigger companies, or change their focus since they couldn't break profit for their games and noone would buy them but buy B movie looking games instead and the Japanese brought some presetation crud filled JRPG's instead. Nice supporting the people who make the core games for you guys. ;)

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

cametall

There's a big difference between hardcore gamers and hardcore gamers with a brain.

Anyways, don't trick yourself into thinking that those very same gamers who want big budget games all the time are "new gamers". The fact is that they very much existed in the community for a long time, thinking that big budgets will somehow convince the non-gamers and casuals into thinking that the video game medium is as important as movies, books and music. If only they realize the inaccessibility found in paying nearly $65 a game. There's a reason why most games can't even compete with the numbers of DVDs sold a year.

[QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

Dencore

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

Finally, someone ELSE who understands the "not all that greatness" that is "Halo". Thank you so much for saying that. I can truly see you are a being of REAL intelligence.

Now as far as that moron who said some garbage about me sleeping better at night cause I seem to "think" I'm hardcore you can just shut it. Don't let this Level 1 fool you. I've been in the loop for years and you couldn't even begin to comprehend what I could say to you. Just because you are a casual gamer doesn't automatically make the games that you play "casual". You are provong yourself to be just as typical as the people that I was talking about before. How could you even think to say I'm not hardcore when you probably have never even been it yourself you frikkin' casual. I'll tell you what. I'm gonna pull a random idiot out of my hat. I'll wager you a few hundred bucks that it turns out to be you.

[QUOTE="cametall"][QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

Dencore

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

I actually think the UT series on consoles is geared towards a more casual audience. So in that sense yes it is casual.

The PC variation definitely is one of the cornerstones of PC online shooters and has most certainly earned its rank amongst the "hardcore" games. Of course casuals can enjoy it too, but just like Counter Strike you have to play it like a sport to get good at it.

Pretty much EVERY game on consoles these days are geared towards casuals. Want to see REAL hardcore games for your consoles? Buy a Dreamcast, Saturn, or any imported Japanese console.

Core focased Japanese game developers WERE hardcore console gaming. Wait what happened to them? Oh yeah they all had to close their doors, get absorbed by bigger companies, or change their focus since they couldn't break profit for their games and noone would buy them but buy B movie looking games instead and the Japanese brought some presetation crud filled JRPG's instead. Nice supporting the people who make the core games for you guys. ;)

Oh of course, almost every console game is geared towards the casual game. The most casual game the PC has that is not a card game or puzzle is World of Warcraft. So the PC could never wave the casuals banner as effectively as consoles.

The most "hardcore" games on consoles are usually the niche games, like most of the JRPGs. Actually that is all that is coming to mind. It isn't that JRPGs are hard, it is just you have to follow a complex story and sometimes memorize patterns. Which aren't particularly fun for casual gamers.

Hardcores made this industry what it is. Who the hell do you think buys the most games and software?

This thread is a disgrace to the history of gaming.

jethrovegas

No. WRONG. When the NES came out, everyone was interested in it not just the nerds. Most of hardcore started playing on the NES and guess what, they were all noobs.

One hardcore buys more game than a casual but they only make like 5% of the market so casuals as a whole still buy more games than the hardcore crowd.

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

well i'm a casual gamer. and i play those games. so they are casual games.

games like WOW, God of War, HL2, Halo.

Does it helps you sleep at night calling yourself hardcore, when your realy not.

OpGenesis

First of all while I didn't like Gears Epic IS considered "hardcore" with Unreal Tournament. If you were talking about generically garbage shooters like Halo or Lost Planet I'd whole heatedly agree, but Unreal Tournament is a top tier PC franchise.

Finally, someone ELSE who understands the "not all that greatness" that is "Halo". Thank you so much for saying that. I can truly see you are a being of REAL intelligence.

Now as far as that moron who said some garbage about me sleeping better at night cause I seem to "think" I'm hardcore you can just shut it. Don't let this Level 1 fool you. I've been in the loop for years and you couldn't even begin to comprehend what I could say to you. Just because you are a casual gamer doesn't automatically make the games that you play "casual". You are provong yourself to be just as typical as the people that I was talking about before. How could you even think to say I'm not hardcore when you probably have never even been it yourself you frikkin' casual. I'll tell you what. I'm gonna pull a random idiot out of my hat. I'll wager you a few hundred bucks that it turns out to be you.

thank you, you prove my point...LOL

[QUOTE="cametall"]

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

Redmoonxl2

There's a big difference between hardcore gamers and hardcore gamers with a brain.

Anyways, don't trick yourself into thinking that those very same gamers who want big budget games all the time are "new gamers". The fact is that they very much existed in the community for a long time, thinking that big budgets will somehow convince the non-gamers and casuals into thinking that the video game medium is as important as movies, books and music. If only they realize the inaccessibility found in paying nearly $65 a game. There's a reason why most games can't even compete with the numbers of DVDs sold a year.

A very valid point. I think "teh hardc0re kiddyz" is what I should have said.

I forgot about the "bigger budget = better game" crowd. GameSpot has more "teh hardc0re kiddyz" than the "bigger budget = better game crowd" who I geared my post towards.

EDIT: The "sleepy" is getting to me, had a couple of spacing issues :D

[QUOTE="cametall"]

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

Redmoonxl2

There's a big difference between hardcore gamers and hardcore gamers with a brain.

Anyways, don't trick yourself into thinking that those very same gamers who want big budget games all the time are "new gamers". The fact is that they very much existed in the community for a long time, thinking that big budgets will somehow convince the non-gamers and casuals into thinking that the video game medium is as important as movies, books and music. If only they realize the inaccessibility found in paying nearly $65 a game. There's a reason why most games can't even compete with the numbers of DVDs sold a year.

Amen. And hardcore means that you play video games everytime you can but it doesnt mean you know about the industry. I know plenty of noobs who started at the PS2 era but they play more than me.

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

cametall

I wouldn't call them "new" since they've been around ever since the Playstation came out. Before these "poser gamers" stopped gaming at the age of 13 and with very few that continued.

Anyway there are very few quality games that come out but their are still some.

Odin Sphere for example is amazing and is a fine sequel to Princess Crown. *someone maxed out in stats :P*

Dementium: The Ward for the DS also looks great.

:)

[QUOTE="cametall"]

No, what you described in your first paragraph are the "new" gamers. The ones who obsess over Halo, Killzone, and MGS4 and if a game does not score 8.5 minimum on GameSpot or other sites won't give the game the time of day.

I myself cannot wait for Aquaria and I enjoyed Shady O'Grady's Rising Star. I also love the Phoenix Wright series and Hotel Dusk for the DS.

Dencore

I wouldn't call them "new" since they've been around ever since the Playstation came out. Before these "poser gamers" stopped gaming at the age of 13 and with very few that continued.

Anyway there are very few quality games that come out but their are still some.

Odin Sphere for example is amazing and is a fine sequel to Princess Crown. *someone maxed out in stats :P*

Dementium: The Ward for the DS also looks great.

:)

mmm Dementium

EDIT: Ugh, the "sleepy" hit me again. I think I am losing to it!

[QUOTE="OpGenesis"][QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="joel_101"]

thank you, you prove my point...LOL

joel_101

I guess it's settled then. you truly are stupid. Unless I just read my own post wrong, lol. And, uh, just how did I prove your point? Are you sure you aren't illiterate, too?

So you are saying wanting deep and quality games is a bad thing? Ok, you's saying let's all root for quick buck games and cheap ports, if that's what you are impliyng.tegovoltio

Wanting deep and quality games is never a bad thing. However, expecting them all the time is asinine.

Can't expect a MGS in every game the same way you can't expect an Apocalypse Now in every movie.

But again, Nintendo hurts console gaming - pushing hardcores out of the market leaves them dependant on a less reliable audience. Those hardcore gamers haven't completely left console gaming, they're mainly on other consoles, but I see them as being the last defense against a market collapse if things go south. A more negative person could see them scurying to the haven of PC gaming, but there are core titles on the 360 and PS3 they still enjoy, and I can see recovering publishers turning to those platforms to rebuild.subrosian

I think this is definitely a point the TC should take to heart.

Casual gamers are, by definition, "casual" and will never have an attach rate as high as a "hardcore" gamer. The saturation of low-budget, mass-appeal games in the market is a valid concern. And if allowed to prevail, will see the quick decline of gaming just as it did in in the 80s.

However, I'm not proposing the extermination of "casuals" all together. I do not agree that Nintendo is killing gaming. I applaud Nintendo for bringing a new market for games, since weren't all "hardcore" gamers formerly "casual"?

But the fact remains that the hardcore market is the CHECK AND BALANCE for the casual market - and vice versa. There NEEDS to be a tension in the development of new and improving games. If forced in a single direction, game development would, as already mentioned, saturate the market into oblivion.