Highest sales = highest quality; reviews are useless

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Mrmccormo

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#1 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts

Why do we gamers allow game developers and "journalists" determine what games are quality and what ones aren't? People vote with their dollar. We can argue about aesthetics or content all day long, but at the end of the day, the quality of a game is decided by sales.

Disagree? Wanna argue about definitions or how video games are art? Argue all you want, but you're going to be going up against some of the most respected businessmen out there. Armand V Feigenbaum has said in his book Total Quality Control that "quality is a customer determination", and it's not up to the designers, the marketers, or the reviewers/journalists to determine what is and what is not quality. David A Garvin states that "the quality of a product is determined by the consumer and is in "the eye of the beholder"."

Even after reading the thread title, you must be laughing to yourself and thinking "Wait, so are you saying that Mario Kart on the Wii is a higher-quality game than Mass Effect 2 because it sold more?"But this adds nothing to our discussion. Wait, so are YOU saying that Mass Effect 2 is a higher-quality game than Mario Kart Wii because it has cutscenes, more dialog, and guns? This all boils down to opinion, and ultimately, consumers voted with their money. Mario Kart offers more quality and value to more people than Mass Effect does. This doesn't mean ME2 is a bad game or even that Mario Kart Wii will always be the "better game" on an individual basis. Plenty of people are going to enjoy Mass Effect 2 more than Mario Kart. It does mean - however - that to the public, Mario Kart Wii has more quality, and based on sales, more people are enjoying Mario Kart Wii. It's really quite simple. But we gamers don't like this logic.

I think this is why gamers huddle around review scores so often, even though we're being completely illogicalabout it. If someone like me says "high sales equals high quality", isnt' the counter-argument going to be "popularity doesn't determine quality"?

Wait, so then why do we use the opinion of someone else (a reviewer) and combine all those scores together into an average (on Metacritic, for example) and then use THAT as some sort of gauge of quality? Isn't that the exact same kind of popular vote, except that the reviewers are only awarding meaningless numbers, whereas the market is actually giving a popular vote with their money? Doesn't it make MORE sense to find out for yourself what games are good instead of relying on the "popular vote" of a small collection of videogame reviewers? These days, a game gets anywhere from 30 to 50 "professional" reviews that are added to sites like Metacritic. However, when a game like Mario Kart sells 26 million, here you have a case of 26 million people who voted "yes" with real money against 30-50 reviewers who may or may not have voted "yes" with their review scores. BTW, Mario Kart Wii has a Metacritic score of 82 and therefore has a lower score than dozens of current-gen titles. It's sales - however - have made it one of the best-selling stand-alone titles in the history of videogames.

Our opinions on reviews really make no sense. Now, if you happen to trust a particular reviewer (like, if his/her game preferences line up with yours), then that's fine. However, then it's no different than hearing a game suggestion from a trusted friend. It has nothing to do with the reviewer's status as a reviewer.

If there is anything I'd change about this gaming generation, it would be the blind trust in reviewers.

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Vesica_Prime

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#2 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

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rpgs_shall_rule

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#3 rpgs_shall_rule
Member since 2006 • 1943 Posts

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

Vesica_Prime

Why would you ever doubt this?

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That_one_pie

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#4 That_one_pie
Member since 2008 • 181 Posts

So any games with sales less than 5 million suck?

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Mrmccormo

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#5 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

Vesica_Prime
Read the post. Are you saying Wii Sports is NOT the best game ever? Why is it NOT the best? What game is better? And why is it better? Regardless of what you say, Wii Sports apparently offered more entertainment to people than whatever game you mention. It doesn't matter one bit if the game you mention is "better" according to a few reviews or a few websites. Wii Sports sold. In business, that is what matters. And gamers LOVE business! They argue about sales, product quality, marketing, hype, different target audiences and markets, and all sorts of non-gaming, business-related topics. So, this should make perfect sense.
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funsohng

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#6 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts

Why do we gamers allow game developers and "journalists" determine what games are quality and what ones aren't?

Mrmccormo
Because it makes a lot more sense than having a businessman determine it.
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hakanakumono

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#7 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Just because reviews aren't perfect doesn't mean you should resort to something even less reliable to determine quality.

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sinpkr

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#8 sinpkr
Member since 2010 • 1255 Posts

o rllly

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soulitane

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#9 soulitane
Member since 2010 • 15091 Posts
"If there is anything I'd change about this gaming generation, it would be the blind trust in reviewers." That contradicts most of what you said, if we blindly followed reviews wii fit wouldn't have sold more than halo or uncharted.
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Vesica_Prime

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#10 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

Mrmccormo

Read the post. Are you saying Wii Sports is NOT the best game ever? Why is it NOT the best? What game is better? And why is it better? Regardless of what you say, Wii Sports apparently offered more entertainment to people than whatever game you mention. It doesn't matter one bit if the game you mention is "better" according to a few reviews or a few websites. Wii Sports sold. In business, that is what matters. And gamers LOVE business! They argue about sales, product quality, marketing, hype, different target audiences and markets, and all sorts of non-gaming, business-related topics. So, this should make perfect sense.

So having numbers automatically makes something correct/the best? If so would you agree that 2 + 2 = 5 if everyone agreed on it?

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SRTtoZ

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#11 SRTtoZ
Member since 2009 • 4800 Posts

I feel bad for you TC, you wrote all that just to be proven wrong in 5 seconds.

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Deathtransit

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#12 Deathtransit
Member since 2007 • 3086 Posts
I'm sorry, but saying sales equals is quality is idiocy. All you have to do is look at Hollywood for the proof. I agree with some of your other points, but this is SW.
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Mrmccormo

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#13 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts

Just because reviews aren't perfect doesn't mean you should resort to something even less reliable to determine quality.

hakanakumono

According to whose standards are sales "even less reliable"? At least sales are cut and dry. "Oh, Wii Fit sold over 10 million, and I want an exercise game, so that looks like a good fit" seems more logical than "Oh, four different advertising-funded websites gave a high review score to Zumba fitness. Let's go with that one"
So having numbers automatically makes something correct/the best? If so would you agree that 2 + 2 = 5 if everyone agreed on itVesica_Prime
I don't see what you're getting at. You're saying that sales numbers are bad? Okay, fair enough. Then why do we give review numbers more clout? There have been plenty of times when every reviewer agreed that 2 + 2 = 5 when they give fantastic reviews to a heavily-marketed game like Halo when it clearly falls short of the present standards of the market at the time.

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oldkingallant

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#14 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

I can't even begin to say how wrong this is. There are many factors that contribute to the sales of a game, quality is just one. Perhaps more importantly are marketing, mass appeal, name recognition, multiplat vs. exclusive, and availability.

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Vesica_Prime

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#15 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts

I don't see what you're getting at. You're saying that sales numbers are bad? Okay, fair enough. Then why do we give review numbers more clout? There have been plenty of times when every reviewer agreed that 2 + 2 = 5 when they give fantastic reviews to a heavily-marketed game like Halo when it clearly falls short of the present standards of the market at the time.

Mrmccormo

I never said that review numbers are everything, in fact I quite disagree with the notion of higher review numbers = better games. I never ever said games getting sales was a bad thing as well, please do not resort to putting words in my mouth. However what I object to is your statement of sales=quality.

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oldkingallant

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#16 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts
I'm sorry, but saying sales equals is quality is idiocy. All you have to do is look at Hollywood for the proof. I agree with some of your other points, but this is SW.Deathtransit
What are you talking about? Transformers 2 was a GREAT movie and Michael Bay is the best director of all time! :roll::lol: /sarcasm
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KBFloYd

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#17 KBFloYd
Member since 2009 • 22714 Posts

i agree with you TC..people speak with their wallets..

wii sports brought more joy and gaming to world than uncharted 1,2,3 and soon part4 combined

same for mario kart and wii fit..

its just that hardcore gamers like everyone here at the forum want a different gaming experience.

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hakanakumono

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#18 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Just because reviews aren't perfect doesn't mean you should resort to something even less reliable to determine quality.

Mrmccormo

According to whose standards are sales "even less reliable"? At least sales are cut and dry. "Oh, Wii Fit sold over 10 million, and I want an exercise game, so that looks like a good fit" seems more logical than "Oh, four different advertising-funded websites gave a high review score to Zumba fitness. Let's go with that one"
So having numbers automatically makes something correct/the best? If so would you agree that 2 + 2 = 5 if everyone agreed on itVesica_Prime
I don't see what you're getting at. You're saying that sales numbers are bad? Okay, fair enough. Then why do we give review numbers more clout? There have been plenty of times when every reviewer agreed that 2 + 2 = 5 when they give fantastic reviews to a heavily-marketed game like Halo when it clearly falls short of the present standards of the market at the time.

Sales are not an assessment of quality. Reviews attempt to assess quality, althought hey are imperfect at it. Judging quality based on sales is like judging games based on mass appeal or even brand name.

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NeonNinja

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#19 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

While I like what you're saying about not using review scores as a measure of quality (for instance,ME2 scored a 96 and I can tell you I think it's far from that in personal preference), I don't agree with using sales as a measure of quality.

Quality is subjective. The only thing I use to judge whether I think a game is good or not is my own personal experience and I wish that in more serious discussions people chose to do that instead of focusing on what game scored what or what game sold what, etc. I'd rather discuss things I personally know than things determined by an outside sources opinion. And outside source opinions include both reviews and sales.

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oldkingallant

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#20 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

i agree with you TC..people speak with their wallets..

wii sports brought more joy and gaming to world than uncharted 1,2,3 and soon part4 combined

same for mario kart and wii fit..

its just that hardcore gamers like everyone here at the forum want a different gaming experience.

KBFloYd
:| Really now? So because something sells better, it's better? So someone makes a perfect game and everyone who ever plays it says it's the best game ever, but only 1,000 people play it. Then some bad game with crazy marketing sells millions and a lot of the people who buy it dislike it. The one that sold more is better? Fatal missteps in logic there.
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RandoIph

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#21 RandoIph
Member since 2010 • 2041 Posts
Your argument is a logical fallacy, appeal to majority. It fails right out of the gate because of that. Try again.
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leadernator

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#22 leadernator
Member since 2003 • 9064 Posts

Reviews can help you save money. People don't always trust them blindly... why do you think reviews are usually a 3 page read? You read the damn review, then you can decide whether or not you agree or not.

What about Movies? A lot of the box office hits aren't even quality movies... heck, most of the academy award winning movies this year weren't even close to massive box office success. The Fighter? Awesome movie... did everyone go see the movie? No.

It's the same with video game reviews bro. They are there to assist your judgement. I don't know about you, but I don't have the resources to buy and try every single game out there just to judge the quality for myself.

Read a review... if it makes sense to you, then no harm in believing them :|

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Mrmccormo

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#23 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts
[QUOTE="Deathtransit"]I'm sorry, but saying sales equals is quality is idiocy. All you have to do is look at Hollywood for the proof. I agree with some of your other points, but this is SW.oldkingallant
What are you talking about? Transformers 2 was a GREAT movie and Michael Bay is the best director of all time! :roll::lol: /sarcasm

Lemme ask you this: if your favorite game was Mario Kart Wii with a mere 82 on metacritic, would you REALLY care about its score? I didn't even see Transformers 2, but obviously people liked it. Now, it has long been a habit for "intellectuals" to look down on those who go with the popular. Dig into history and you'll see that people like Shakespeare and Charles Dickens were very popular during their own lifetimes, but plenty of intellectuals mocked their contributions to the arts for various reasons. The NES was mocked as a "child's toy" by the elite PC gamers of the '80s, but how many PC games from that era have stood the test of time compared to the NES's games? People say "Microsft/Sony/Nintendo are businesses. That's why they do [insert news clip]." We can easily recognize they're businesses, and we can easily recognize that popular gaming phenomenons shape the future of gaming (Call of Duty, motion controls, World of Warcraft). So then why are we so terrified to admit that these popular things have more quality? They're going to shape the industry whether you label them as 'quality' or not.
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oldkingallant

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#24 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

While I like what you're saying about not using review scores as a measure of quality (for instance,ME2 scored a 96 and I can tell you I think it's far from that in personal preference), I don't agree with using sales as a measure of quality.

Quality is subjective. The only thing I use to judge whether I think a game is good or not is my own personal experience and I wish that in more serious discussions people chose to do that instead of focusing on what game scored what or what game sold what, etc. I'd rather discuss things I personally know than things determined by an outside sources opinion. And outside source opinions include both reviews and sales.

NeonNinja
You people preaching subjective opinions do understand that System Wars would be quite dull if not for all the "ownage" and crazy score discussions right? I don't want to go into deep conversations about why I love a game when essentially the next person is going to just say "Ok I thought this." I'll join debate class if I want a reasonable, level-headed debate, using ridiculous things like reviews and perceived flops is what keeps this place fun.
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Mrmccormo

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#25 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts
Your argument is a logical fallacy, appeal to majority. It fails right out of the gate because of that. Try again.RandoIph
You really don't know what the application of appeal to majority is, then. From a business standpoint, quality is determined by the consumer. I'm not arguing which individual game is better and then backing it up by saying "because 10 million bought it". If I did, then your "appeal to majority" statement would apply. I'm simply pointing out that 10 million votes of "yes, this is quality" far outweighs the 30-50 votes of various review sites that may or may not say "yes, this is quality".
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oldkingallant

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#26 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts
[QUOTE="oldkingallant"][QUOTE="Deathtransit"]I'm sorry, but saying sales equals is quality is idiocy. All you have to do is look at Hollywood for the proof. I agree with some of your other points, but this is SW.Mrmccormo
What are you talking about? Transformers 2 was a GREAT movie and Michael Bay is the best director of all time! :roll::lol: /sarcasm

Lemme ask you this: if your favorite game was Mario Kart Wii with a mere 82 on metacritic, would you REALLY care about its score? I didn't even see Transformers 2, but obviously people liked it. Now, it has long been a habit for "intellectuals" to look down on those who go with the popular. Dig into history and you'll see that people like Shakespeare and Charles Dickens were very popular during their own lifetimes, but plenty of intellectuals mocked their contributions to the arts for various reasons. The NES was mocked as a "child's toy" by the elite PC gamers of the '80s, but how many PC games from that era have stood the test of time compared to the NES's games? People say "Microsft/Sony/Nintendo are businesses. That's why they do [insert news clip]." We can easily recognize they're businesses, and we can easily recognize that popular gaming phenomenons shape the future of gaming (Call of Duty, motion controls, World of Warcraft). So then why are we so terrified to admit that these popular things have more quality? They're going to shape the industry whether you label them as 'quality' or not.

Transformers 2 was incoherent garbage with no strong plot and a bunch of stupid action. As subjective as that sounds, it's pretty much the truth. Someone can enjoy the stupid action and overlook the weak plot, but it's still there. That is the essence of quality, based on a general set of standard rules one can determine the quality of media such as a movie or a video game, just as one can take a piece written by Mozart and objectively say it is far more complex and involves more talent than today's #1 pop hit (whatever it is). Quality can objectively be determined, however one's subjective opinions are completely separate from the objective quality. I can enjoy Mario Kart Wii a lot, yes, but from a critical standpoint I can find things to criticize that make it below the more acclaimed games. Objective and subjective are two different words for a reason. Sales are merely the perceived subjective opinion of the masses, a well informed person with experience in the medium can offer an objective criticism of it, and that is truly determining "quality."
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RandoIph

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#27 RandoIph
Member since 2010 • 2041 Posts
[QUOTE="RandoIph"]Your argument is a logical fallacy, appeal to majority. It fails right out of the gate because of that. Try again.Mrmccormo
You really don't know what the application of appeal to majority is, then. From a business standpoint, quality is determined by the consumer. I'm not arguing which individual game is better and then backing it up by saying "because 10 million bought it". If I did, then your "appeal to majority" statement would apply. I'm simply pointing out that 10 million votes of "yes, this is quality" far outweighs the 30-50 votes of various review sites that may or may not say "yes, this is quality".

How can you know the 10 million people who bought the game think it is a quality game. How do you know they didn't lose interest quickly, or regret the purchase? You do not. You are appealing to the fact that more people bought this thing than that thing, a clear appeal to majority.
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CaseyWegner

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#28 CaseyWegner
Member since 2002 • 70152 Posts

what does a purchase tell you about how much the end user enjoyed the game? :|

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oldkingallant

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#29 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts
[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"][QUOTE="RandoIph"]Your argument is a logical fallacy, appeal to majority. It fails right out of the gate because of that. Try again.RandoIph
You really don't know what the application of appeal to majority is, then. From a business standpoint, quality is determined by the consumer. I'm not arguing which individual game is better and then backing it up by saying "because 10 million bought it". If I did, then your "appeal to majority" statement would apply. I'm simply pointing out that 10 million votes of "yes, this is quality" far outweighs the 30-50 votes of various review sites that may or may not say "yes, this is quality".

How can you know the 10 million people who bought the game think it is a quality game. How do you know they didn't lose interest quickly, or regret the purchase? You do not. You are appealing to the fact that more people bought this thing than that thing, a clear appeal to majority.

This is another point I only briefly made. 1,000,000 go to see a movie and 500,000 think it's horrific. 1,000 people go to see another movie and every one of them praise it like the next coming. Which is the better movie? I'd argue the one with an 100% satisfaction rate. You can't determine how many people a game satisfies without going door to door to door and so on, and thus using sales as an equivalent to quality falls flat.
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youngmurk911

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#30 youngmurk911
Member since 2004 • 3895 Posts

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

Vesica_Prime
of all time
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Deathtransit

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#31 Deathtransit
Member since 2007 • 3086 Posts
The truth is, sometimes quality gets largely overlooked and sells poorly, sometimes something great also sells well. Just because something does well in no way denotes quality. Is Paul Blart: Mall Cop a quality movie? It must be, it was number one when it released. Generalizations are a bad thing. I don't think popular things don't have quality, SOME do. I agree that reviews shouldn't be the end of it. I'm enjoying KZ3 just fine, regardless of teh floppage.
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oldkingallant

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#32 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts
[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

So Wii Sports is clearly the best game ever?

youngmurk911
of all time

"Yo Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time I'm real happy for you and Ima let you finish, but Wii Sports is the best game of all time. OF ALL TIME!" /oldjoke :P
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Mrmccormo

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#33 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts
[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"][QUOTE="RandoIph"]Your argument is a logical fallacy, appeal to majority. It fails right out of the gate because of that. Try again.RandoIph
You really don't know what the application of appeal to majority is, then. From a business standpoint, quality is determined by the consumer. I'm not arguing which individual game is better and then backing it up by saying "because 10 million bought it". If I did, then your "appeal to majority" statement would apply. I'm simply pointing out that 10 million votes of "yes, this is quality" far outweighs the 30-50 votes of various review sites that may or may not say "yes, this is quality".

How can you know the 10 million people who bought the game think it is a quality game. How do you know they didn't lose interest quickly, or regret the purchase? You do not. You are appealing to the fact that more people bought this thing than that thing, a clear appeal to majority.

The market doesn't really work that way. Business doesn't work that way. The reality is this. In our scenario (and this is typical for any mass-media product release), 50 million were aware of the product existing in the first place. 10 million bought it. That means that in one way or another (maybe by seeing a commercial, maybe by playing it at a friend's house, maybe by looking at the game case) out of those 50 million, 10 million made the decision that the product was high quality. On the other hand, if those same 50 million are aware of a different product but it only sells 500,000, that product did not meet the customer's standards for "quality" in some fashion. This concept is also why high advertising budgets often lead to higher sales. It isn't because more people are being "tricked" into buying the product. It's because instead of only 50 million being aware of your product, a marketing budget has now made 250 million aware of your product. There are more potential customers.
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oldkingallant

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#34 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

what does a purchase tell you about how much the end user enjoyed the game? :|

CaseyWegner
Everything. I've enjoyed every game I've ever bought to the EXACT same extent regardless of polish, immersion, innovation, or any of those other things that make certain games of significantly higher quality than others....... :P
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#35 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

[QUOTE="KBFloYd"]

i agree with you TC..people speak with their wallets..

wii sports brought more joy and gaming to world than uncharted 1,2,3 and soon part4 combined

same for mario kart and wii fit..

its just that hardcore gamers like everyone here at the forum want a different gaming experience.

oldkingallant

:| Really now? So because something sells better, it's better? So someone makes a perfect game and everyone who ever plays it says it's the best game ever, but only 1,000 people play it. Then some bad game with crazy marketing sells millions and a lot of the people who buy it dislike it. The one that sold more is better? Fatal missteps in logic there.

That's not what TC is saying, TC is saying that in the case of Mario Kart 26 million people voted with their wallets that they wanted an experience that it had to offer. Why is that not relevant to its quality in anyway but some reviewer assessing arbitrary components that clearly are not important to the buying base, the people who at the end of the day ARE THE ENTIRE REASON SAID PRODUCT WAS MADE, as in, not for us forum dwellers,not for the business men, not for the reviewers but the buying base is completely irrelevant? I think that is an entirely relevant point. Video games are products to entertain andone of the most relevantways you can assess if you are doing a good job for the consumers is if they actually give a damn about your product. I don't care if Demon Souls has a 90 metacritic and Mario Kart has 82, I would rather spend money on the later, why is that not a legitimate point of discussion?

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cainetao11

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#36 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 38061 Posts
At the end of the day, we all decide what is of quality to ourselves. Are those top selling games the highest quality to me, because a lot of other people bought them? I didn't buy Mario Kart. The point to me is, there is no right, or best overall. Queastion is, what is right For you? And be humble enough to know that applies to nobody else.
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NeonNinja

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#37 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

While I like what you're saying about not using review scores as a measure of quality (for instance,ME2 scored a 96 and I can tell you I think it's far from that in personal preference), I don't agree with using sales as a measure of quality.

Quality is subjective. The only thing I use to judge whether I think a game is good or not is my own personal experience and I wish that in more serious discussions people chose to do that instead of focusing on what game scored what or what game sold what, etc. I'd rather discuss things I personally know than things determined by an outside sources opinion. And outside source opinions include both reviews and sales.

oldkingallant

You people preaching subjective opinions do understand that System Wars would be quite dull if not for all the "ownage" and crazy score discussions right? I don't want to go into deep conversations about why I love a game when essentially the next person is going to just say "Ok I thought this." I'll join debate class if I want a reasonable, level-headed debate, using ridiculous things like reviews and perceived flops is what keeps this place fun.

ZOMG! FLOPZONE 3 IS ZO BAD WITH 8.5!

Having. So. Much. More. Fun. Now. This. Is. More. Stimulating. Than. Actual. Discussion.

No yeah, I can see your point. System Wars totally isn't a place for people to debate various games/platforms that they enjoy. No, no, no. It's all about, "GRAN TURISMO 5 IS BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" said the 360 fanboy. "NO! ALAN WAKE IS THE BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" responded the PS3 fanboy. Because in its most basic form, that isn't a debate. :roll: Though on a Pauly Shore brain damage scale of 1-10 with 10 being 'fun.' That's just 'FUN.' And all caps is like a 12. Yay Pauly Shore!

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oldkingallant

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#38 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts
[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"][QUOTE="RandoIph"][QUOTE="Mrmccormo"] You really don't know what the application of appeal to majority is, then. From a business standpoint, quality is determined by the consumer. I'm not arguing which individual game is better and then backing it up by saying "because 10 million bought it". If I did, then your "appeal to majority" statement would apply. I'm simply pointing out that 10 million votes of "yes, this is quality" far outweighs the 30-50 votes of various review sites that may or may not say "yes, this is quality".

How can you know the 10 million people who bought the game think it is a quality game. How do you know they didn't lose interest quickly, or regret the purchase? You do not. You are appealing to the fact that more people bought this thing than that thing, a clear appeal to majority.

The market doesn't really work that way. Business doesn't work that way. The reality is this. In our scenario (and this is typical for any mass-media product release), 50 million were aware of the product existing in the first place. 10 million bought it. That means that in one way or another (maybe by seeing a commercial, maybe by playing it at a friend's house, maybe by looking at the game case) out of those 50 million, 10 million made the decision that the product was high quality. On the other hand, if those same 50 million are aware of a different product but it only sells 500,000, that product did not meet the customer's standards for "quality" in some fashion. This concept is also why high advertising budgets often lead to higher sales. It isn't because more people are being "tricked" into buying the product. It's because instead of only 50 million being aware of your product, a marketing budget has now made 250 million aware of your product. There are more potential customers.

Wrong. It might not be that it didn't meet the public's standards of quality, it could simply be due to a smaller budget or poor marketing. Your scenario also operates under the assumption that everyone knows for a fact that the game they are buying is quality from the moment the commercial convinces them to get it. How is this even possible? This is seriously either the worst argument in the history of System Wars, or one of the best trollings in a long time.
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SRTtoZ

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#39 SRTtoZ
Member since 2009 • 4800 Posts

Yea so if a Toyota Corolla is the highest selling car in america, that automatically means its the highest quality? Are you nuts man?

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WilliamRLBaker

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#40 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

I actually agree with you for once.

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oldkingallant

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#41 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

While I like what you're saying about not using review scores as a measure of quality (for instance,ME2 scored a 96 and I can tell you I think it's far from that in personal preference), I don't agree with using sales as a measure of quality.

Quality is subjective. The only thing I use to judge whether I think a game is good or not is my own personal experience and I wish that in more serious discussions people chose to do that instead of focusing on what game scored what or what game sold what, etc. I'd rather discuss things I personally know than things determined by an outside sources opinion. And outside source opinions include both reviews and sales.

NeonNinja

You people preaching subjective opinions do understand that System Wars would be quite dull if not for all the "ownage" and crazy score discussions right? I don't want to go into deep conversations about why I love a game when essentially the next person is going to just say "Ok I thought this." I'll join debate class if I want a reasonable, level-headed debate, using ridiculous things like reviews and perceived flops is what keeps this place fun.

ZOMG! FLOPZONE 3 IS ZO BAD WITH 8.5!

Having. So. Much. More. Fun. Now. This. Is. More. Stimulating. Than. Actual. Discussion.

No yeah, I can see your point. System Wars totally isn't a place for people to debate various games/platforms that they enjoy. No, no, no. It's all about, "GRAN TURISMO 5 IS BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" said the 360 fanboy. "NO! ALAN WAKE IS THE BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" responded the PS3 fanboy. Because in its most basic form, that isn't a debate. :roll: Though on a Pauly Shore brain damage scale of 1-10 with 10 being 'fun.' That's just 'FUN.' And all caps is like a 12. Yay Pauly Shore!

Again I'm not on System Wars for mental stimulation. I spend my entire day at school for mental stimulation and I go on political sites and the like for mental engagement. I and the majority of people here come for dumb fun. The extent to which you dumb down the typical arguments on System Wars is absolutely ridiculous though, sure if the entire board consisted of discussions like that I'd give everyone on here an honorary degree from the University of the Mentally Handicapped, but that is not the case at all. I'm not saying to eliminate any and all subjective opinion from System Wars, I'm just saying removing all the dumb fun entirely would defeat the purpose of System Wars.

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ActicEdge

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#42 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

Sales are not an assessment of quality. Reviews attempt to assess quality, althought hey are imperfect at it. Judging quality based on sales is like judging games based on mass appeal or even brand name.

hakanakumono

Sales don't assess quality, sales assess interest and curiousity and the reality that you guys don't seem to want to admit is that if a game has sold 10 million units, there is a higher chance it has qualities that are going to interest people then a title that sold 50k units. Quality is not an objective word in the realm of a creation made for enjoyment so while reviews are not useless, they should not be put on a pedestal. People laugh at the 20 million people who bought Wii play but who'sdoing the reallaughing if I'm having fun playing my game and you're laughing because you think it "sucks"?

And yes, things like budgeting, marketing, brand name etc affect sales and sway this from being undisputable fact but in the same notion, no one is comparing Amnesia to Mario Kart. Compare Halo to Mario Kart however and the effect of TC words becomes more obvious.

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RandoIph

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#43 RandoIph
Member since 2010 • 2041 Posts

I didn't even see Transformers 2, but obviously people liked it.Mrmccormo
No, a lot of people bought tickets to the movie. What a movie goer thought of the movie afterwards when they actually saw it is not known. This is the second, equally flawed pillar of your flaccid argument for the sake of arguing, assumptions. I bought a ticket to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3 when it came out years ago, and I walked out thirty minutes in because it was horrid. By your argument though, my purchase of a ticket was a vote of quality, and my purchase of a copy of Oblivion was clearly indicating I thought the game was of high quality, and in both cases you would be dead wrong. At the point of purchase I had no idea Oblivion had so many cut and paste dungeons that look eerily the same, six voice actors for hundreds of characters, empty cities, bug, glitches, and item and loot scaling. Much like the movie goer who had no idea that Transformers 2 was a vapid explosion fest at the point of purchase for a ticket.

Quality is, to a degree, objective, not subjective. Their are objective reasons why Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit is a better racing game than Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. Yet if a few more million people bought Big Rigs for some unknown reason or another you would ASSUME their purchase to be a vote of quality, basing this belief on absolutely no substantive logic, and decree Big Rigs the better quality game. You would be objectively wrong. You are, in fact, objectively wrong. Goodnight, and enjoy going in circles for the next few hours until you realize you lost the argument on page two.

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oldkingallant

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#44 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

I actually agree with you for once.

WilliamRLBaker
So the Wii is automatically better than the Xbox 360 and Wii Sports is the best game of all time? Thank you for once again ending System Wars William! :roll:
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Mrmccormo

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#45 Mrmccormo
Member since 2011 • 870 Posts
[QUOTE="oldkingallant"]Wrong. It might not be that it didn't meet the public's standards of quality, it could simply be due to a smaller budget or poor marketing. Your scenario also operates under the assumption that everyone knows for a fact that the game they are buying is quality from the moment the commercial convinces them to get it. How is this even possible? This is seriously either the worst argument in the history of System Wars, or one of the best trollings in a long time.

A smaller budget or poor marketing are the reason for low sales? Is that why Minecraft, an unfinished game beta with no markting, horrible graphics, and a 10-man dev team, has already passed 1 million sales? I'm not arguing that YOUR definition of quality is determined by sales. That would be pointless and impossible. However, I am saying that gamers put too much emphasis on the review scores given by 30-50 people while ignoring that a game sold only 500,000 or 15 million. It's illogical. Why say "you can't use the opinion of the dirty, peasant MASSES to determine quality" and then turn around and point to a few review scores to prove a games quality? I'm not saying you personally do this, but it is a prevalent behavior in the gaming world. To a businessman and to someone who doesn't care about "professional game journalism", the sales of a game are a far better gauge for quality than the opinion of advertising-funded websites.
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NeonNinja

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#46 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"] You people preaching subjective opinions do understand that System Wars would be quite dull if not for all the "ownage" and crazy score discussions right? I don't want to go into deep conversations about why I love a game when essentially the next person is going to just say "Ok I thought this." I'll join debate class if I want a reasonable, level-headed debate, using ridiculous things like reviews and perceived flops is what keeps this place fun.oldkingallant

ZOMG! FLOPZONE 3 IS ZO BAD WITH 8.5!

Having. So. Much. More. Fun. Now. This. Is. More. Stimulating. Than. Actual. Discussion.

No yeah, I can see your point. System Wars totally isn't a place for people to debate various games/platforms that they enjoy. No, no, no. It's all about, "GRAN TURISMO 5 IS BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" said the 360 fanboy. "NO! ALAN WAKE IS THE BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" responded the PS3 fanboy. Because in its most basic form, that isn't a debate. :roll: Though on a Pauly Shore brain damage scale of 1-10 with 10 being 'fun.' That's just 'FUN.' And all caps is like a 12. Yay Pauly Shore!

Again I'm not on System Wars for mental stimulation. I spend my entire day at school for mental stimulation and I go on political sites and the like for mental engagement. I and the majority of people here come for dumb fun. The extent to which you dumb down the typical arguments on System Wars is absolutely ridiculous though, sure if the entire board consisted of discussions like that I'd give everyone on here an honorary degree from the University of the Mentally Handicapped, but that is not the case at all. I'm not saying to eliminate any and all subjective opinion from System Wars, I'm just saying removing all the dumb fun entirely would defeat the purpose of System Wars.

I never said to get rid of it. I said in more serious discussions people should use their own opinions rather than a reviewer's opinion.

I'm all for jumping in a thread and pointing out damage control. I'm also all for having a serious discussion about one of my hobbies. But I never said to get rid of it as you assume. I specifically stated in my original post that I wish more people focused on their personal experience for some of the more serious discussions here. It always makes for a more entertaining and generally friendlier debate.

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oldkingallant

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#47 oldkingallant
Member since 2010 • 4958 Posts

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

ZOMG! FLOPZONE 3 IS ZO BAD WITH 8.5!

Having. So. Much. More. Fun. Now. This. Is. More. Stimulating. Than. Actual. Discussion.

No yeah, I can see your point. System Wars totally isn't a place for people to debate various games/platforms that they enjoy. No, no, no. It's all about, "GRAN TURISMO 5 IS BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" said the 360 fanboy. "NO! ALAN WAKE IS THE BIGGEST FLOP OF THIS GEN!" responded the PS3 fanboy. Because in its most basic form, that isn't a debate. :roll: Though on a Pauly Shore brain damage scale of 1-10 with 10 being 'fun.' That's just 'FUN.' And all caps is like a 12. Yay Pauly Shore!

NeonNinja

Again I'm not on System Wars for mental stimulation. I spend my entire day at school for mental stimulation and I go on political sites and the like for mental engagement. I and the majority of people here come for dumb fun. The extent to which you dumb down the typical arguments on System Wars is absolutely ridiculous though, sure if the entire board consisted of discussions like that I'd give everyone on here an honorary degree from the University of the Mentally Handicapped, but that is not the case at all. I'm not saying to eliminate any and all subjective opinion from System Wars, I'm just saying removing all the dumb fun entirely would defeat the purpose of System Wars.

I never said to get rid of it. I said in more serious discussions people should use their own opinions rather than a reviewer's opinion.

I'm all for jumping in a thread and pointing out damage control. I'm also all for having a serious discussion about one of my hobbies. But I never said to get rid of it as you assume. I specifically stated in my original post that I wish more people focused on their personal experience for some of the more serious discussions here. It always makes for a more entertaining and generally friendlier debate.

Well then this is a case of misreading/misinterpreting a post... sorry :oops:. I'm all for adding in subjective opinion but all the stupid crap that makes the folks over at Giant Bomb feel so smug and above us is what separates it from a general games discussion thread. So I think we're actually in complete agreement here and I scanned your post too quickly.
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ActicEdge

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#48 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"]Wrong. It might not be that it didn't meet the public's standards of quality, it could simply be due to a smaller budget or poor marketing. Your scenario also operates under the assumption that everyone knows for a fact that the game they are buying is quality from the moment the commercial convinces them to get it. How is this even possible? This is seriously either the worst argument in the history of System Wars, or one of the best trollings in a long time.Mrmccormo
A smaller budget or poor marketing are the reason for low sales? Is that why Minecraft, an unfinished game beta with no markting, horrible graphics, and a 10-man dev team, has already passed 1 million sales? I'm not arguing that YOUR definition of quality is determined by sales. That would be pointless and impossible. However, I am saying that gamers put too much emphasis on the review scores given by 30-50 people while ignoring that a game sold only 500,000 or 15 million. It's illogical. Why say "you can't use the opinion of the dirty, peasant MASSES to determine quality" and then turn around and point to a few review scores to prove a games quality? I'm not saying you personally do this, but it is a prevalent behavior in the gaming world. To a businessman and to someone who doesn't care about "professional game journalism", the sales of a game are a far better gauge for quality than the opinion of advertising-funded websites.

As a business man you use sales, as a gamer you might use reviews but as a person who knows what they like you don't need either. 1 is not better then the other without context which you are not providing here. I do not read reviews and haven't for 2 and a half years and my gaming purchases are completely fine. I also don't buy based on popularity. I buy based on buyer interest and knowledge that I have aqcuired because that is the best way to do it. If I run a business I don't give 2 ***** about user enjoyment until it comes back to affect my bottom line. If i'm a gamer I'm not getting paid so whydo I care what the masses think. Get it?

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NeonNinja

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#49 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"] Again I'm not on System Wars for mental stimulation. I spend my entire day at school for mental stimulation and I go on political sites and the like for mental engagement. I and the majority of people here come for dumb fun. The extent to which you dumb down the typical arguments on System Wars is absolutely ridiculous though, sure if the entire board consisted of discussions like that I'd give everyone on here an honorary degree from the University of the Mentally Handicapped, but that is not the case at all. I'm not saying to eliminate any and all subjective opinion from System Wars, I'm just saying removing all the dumb fun entirely would defeat the purpose of System Wars.

oldkingallant

I never said to get rid of it. I said in more serious discussions people should use their own opinions rather than a reviewer's opinion.

I'm all for jumping in a thread and pointing out damage control. I'm also all for having a serious discussion about one of my hobbies. But I never said to get rid of it as you assume. I specifically stated in my original post that I wish more people focused on their personal experience for some of the more serious discussions here. It always makes for a more entertaining and generally friendlier debate.

Well then this is a case of misreading/misinterpreting a post... sorry :oops:. I'm all for adding in subjective opinion but all the stupid crap that makes the folks over at Giant Bomb feel so smug and above us is what separates it from a general games discussion thread. So I think we're actually in complete agreement here and I scanned your post too quickly.

:P

It happens. The problem with online forums is that typos/grammar don't always give the tone you're aiming for. :)

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CaseyWegner

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#50 CaseyWegner
Member since 2002 • 70152 Posts

so a person who buys a game but ends up hating it counts the same as somebody who buys it and loves it?