[QUOTE="Makari"][QUOTE="Yangire"]So punishing people for buying used will negatively effect their sales?McStrongfastlol, yeah.. surprised only a few people caught this. wait, no i'm not surprised. :( so people who weren't buying new copies.. continued to not buy new copies? the publishers/developers are already seeing 0 from the used sales. as far as they're concerned, it never happened and they have no way of knowing it did. if people already buying used start boycotting - there is zero difference. the only party really hurting in this transaction is gamestop.What's not to understand? The used market doesn't consist solely of people who only buy games used. Some will choose to opt out because of BS like that. Possible, but not very true in practice. It is also possible that the used game market also rides a unicorn, though!
Homefront, only new games get Muliplayer.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]
[QUOTE="Rockman999"]He still has to pay to play any game online on his 360...
Rockman999
His statement was : I will not be buying any game that requires me to pay to play it online - You should know, you highlighted it.
Xbox Live does not require you pay them for each game you play online. Unlike what his statement is alluding to.
He currently pays a flatrate to pay ALL his games online. He doesn't want to have to pay something for each game he buys.
Either way he's still paying extra to play his games online whether it's for all his games or not.Very select reading friend. EA (FIFA 11) requires a code for each user to play the game online, when I pay for a game I expect it to be playable by any amount of users on my system, but I suppose you knew that anyhow. I have PS3 & 360 so how do you know I wasnt actually referring to that system with this example? The cost of Xbox live means little to me as its worth the £26 a year I pay for it.
Back on topic, If THQ cant afford to release this game at £39.99 and make a profit then they need to restructure budgeting or push the price up.
[QUOTE="McStrongfast"][QUOTE="Makari"] lol, yeah.. surprised only a few people caught this. wait, no i'm not surprised. :( so people who weren't buying new copies.. continued to not buy new copies? the publishers/developers are already seeing 0 from the used sales. as far as they're concerned, it never happened and they have no way of knowing it did. if people already buying used start boycotting - there is zero difference. the only party really hurting in this transaction is gamestop.MakariWhat's not to understand? The used market doesn't consist solely of people who only buy games used. Some will choose to opt out because of BS like that. Possible, but not very true in practice. It is also possible that the used game market also rides a unicorn, though!I'm sure you know of someone who buys new and used. Or buys new and sells.
Shun the non-believer.
I'd rather them support the developer or get nothing.Do you really think people will buy used games if they come with an extra US$10,00 tag attached to them?
[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]
[QUOTE="Rockman999"]Either way he's still paying extra to play his games online whether it's for all his games or not.
Episode_Eve
Don't think that's the point he was making though, was it? So what relevence did your post have?
None?
Honestly, I thought of XBL Gold when reading that quote! But it wasn't the only thing. Pay-to-play MMO's like WOW and the new DCUO came to mind as well. I want to play DCUO, but there's no way I'm paying for it :P. I ain't paying for Gold either!
Thing is, you can't use WoW or other persistent-content games as an analogy. Having an online world running 24 hours a day with millions of active participants is kinda like running a corporate mail server: it's gonna be big. So that's why they charge. They're gonna get you one way or the other; either they charge you by the month or they nickel-and-dime you with virtual purchases which become increasingly necessary the longer you play. The compromises made by the competition are actually well-documented and actually do have a significant effect on the key aspect of an MMO--actually playing it.So you don't support used car lots (even the ones owned by new car dealers)? You're not down with flea markets? You want libraries banned?I'd rather them support the developer or get nothing.Do you really think people will buy used games if they come with an extra US$10,00 tag attached to them?Legolas_Katarn
So you don't support used car lots (even the ones owned by new car dealers)? You're not down with flea markets? You want libraries banned?Used car lots are a totally silly analogy, and it *should* be pretty much immediately apparent as to why! :(HuusAsking
Actually, hell - all 3 of those are. 'Used' in those contexts gives you a markedly different experience than 'new.' That doesn't happen with video games.
Used car lots are a totally silly analogy, and it *should* be pretty much immediately apparent as to why! :([QUOTE="HuusAsking"]So you don't support used car lots (even the ones owned by new car dealers)? You're not down with flea markets? You want libraries banned?
Makari
Actually, hell - all 3 of those are. 'Used' in those contexts gives you a markedly different experience than 'new.' That doesn't happen with video games.
You can still drive a used car. You can still play with used toys. You can still read a used book. I don't see what's so different with the experiences.
Used car lots are a totally silly analogy, and it *should* be pretty much immediately apparent as to why! :([QUOTE="HuusAsking"]So you don't support used car lots (even the ones owned by new car dealers)? You're not down with flea markets? You want libraries banned?
Makari
Actually, hell - all 3 of those are. 'Used' in those contexts gives you a markedly different experience than 'new.' That doesn't happen with video games.
what about used dvds and blurays? and how is a used book a "markedly different experience than new"? lol are there less words? do the slightly bent pages infringe on the overall experience?
[QUOTE="McStrongfast"]I'm sure you know of someone who buys new and used. Or buys new and sells. Shun the non-believer.>MakariI do. He's in high school.
Haha.. I'm mostly saying you should learn to recognize when you're in a minority. The number of people who buy used and new *and* are going to start boycotting based on practices that only affect used purchasers are small.
Of the older (say, out of college and working / living on our own) people that do game, they generally recognize that used games do absolutely nothing for the developer, so people are impartial/logical enough to not hold it against a given dev/publisher if something they do only affects the used market negatively. Why *should* they care when people don't contribute to their continued operation?
When it's some odd practice that effects *new* customers like preorder exclusives, then yeah - it's time for us to complain. But seriously, complaining about used-game practices is like trying to complain that many warranties only apply to the original owner of a given product and are non-transferable. We can still exercise our right of first sale.No you said there'd be zero impact and Gamestop is the only one impacted by this. Moving the goalposts there.
The publisher is lowering the resale value. It affects literally everyone who buys the game new. But it's only relevant to those who will sell/give/trade/lend. And those on the other end obviously. So basically if you intend to ever sell or buy a game used you should care to some degree.
I think EA has one week guest trials for at least some of their games, which would essentially make lending not a part of this equation. I don't know if THQ has such a system in place.
Oh and sometimes these licenses are also locked to a single account. So if other people use the console they'll either have to play on your account or purchase a separate license.
what about used dvds and blurays? and how is a used book a "markedly different experience than new"? lol are there less words? do the slightly bent pages infringe on the overall experience?lazerface216I was trying to spare you all a wall of text with the short reply, but here you all go! Used books are probably the closest thing to games, and I might even guess they have it worse - although the used books industry is apparently very tiny, from how tough it is to find good used bookstores. :) They *do* have the advantage in that everything costs a hell of a lot less to make happen (something like $50-75k to publish a mid-range boo, vs... 50-100x that for a mid-range game?), but relative to the size of the industry it probably hurts too. There is massive wear and tear on books, though (I'm a pretty avid reader with a decent library, and I've lost a couple favorites to spinal injuries :D), although it's also something nobody really cares about. Just the same, I do my part to support authors I like when it comes to the written word, too. I also wouldn't hold it against authors or publishers in the slightest if they started including things in the book... extras, paper map, figurines, that the original owner would likely keep and not pass on to used sellers. Now, movies... http://www.slashfilm.com/infographic-toy-story-3-numbers. As I mentioned, movies get multiple cracks at the consumer's wallet. Toy Story 3, as of December 2010: Retail/Box Office: $1,062,984,497. A billion. Nice! Highest grossing movie of all time - roughly on par with highest grossing video game of all time. DVD (3 weeks): $103,406,647. $100 million in only 3 weeks. Again, nice! And this will probably go on growing slowly for a while. Merchandising Sales: $9,000,000,000. 9 billion. Not much more to say there. TV Licensing: $???, someday Advertising tie-ins: $??? So in summary: so far, the total DVD sales are about 1% of their income on the movie. This is an extreme example, being HUGE with the merchandising, but the main idea is this: movies get multiple chances to make money. Games essentially get one.
You can still drive a used car. You can still play with used toys. You can still read a used book. I don't see what's so different with the experiences.HuusAskingYou can drive a used car - with wear and tear on the interior, the engine, the drivetrain. Talking about cars in particular, there is a very direct correlation between the product being used and there being distinct wear and tear - it is immediately apparent, if not permanently *damaging.* There's a ticking time bomb on this used copy starting to *cost you money* (which will again go back to the manu/dealer in parts and service), which is a HUGE incentive for people to pay 20-30% more for a car brand new over slightly used just for that simple reassurance. And they do it. And there's the entire leasing industry based around the simple idea of NOT having to deal with your car once it becomes too 'used' - if the auto industry can be compared 1:1 with the games industry like that, then what would it take for the idea of paying full price for a game over the course of 2-3 years then giving it back to seem like a good idea? It isn't, because new/used on cars is incredibly different from new/used on games (or books!). With games, you're guaranteed the exact same personal experience as a brand new copy. Much easier, no? There's no worrying about your 9 month old copy of MW2 hurting your performance online compared to the 1 month old copy of it. Without any special maintenance or cost on your end, you can pass on 100% of the experience to the next guy. If it were more like cars, that originally $60 new copy of MW2 will work fine for a couple of months, but then it's going to start crashing, disconnecting, and you'd have to spend $5 or maybe even $10 to get it back into full working order. When it comes to used software/games, there is no opportunity cost, no consideration, no sacrifice associated with the decision besides 'not getting to enjoy my luxury sooner.' I suppose used consoles are a much closer analogy to used cars - and yes, given things like 'wear,' 'maintenance,' and 'warranty' suddenly coming into play, the very same people generally shy away from them in comparison unless spectacularly cheap.
No you said there'd be zero impact and Gamestop is the only one impacted by this. Moving the goalposts there.McStrongfastWithout looking back, I'm pretty sure *I* said and implied in the original comment that if used games are being boycotted, the only person feeling the difference is going to be GameStop. I was shooting for the blindingly obvious/facetious statement. If that is the standard you're going to set for a discussion, I'm not even going to bother.
[QUOTE="Episode_Eve"][QUOTE="-Snooze-"]
Don't think that's the point he was making though, was it? So what relevence did your post have?
None?
HuusAsking
Honestly, I thought of XBL Gold when reading that quote! But it wasn't the only thing. Pay-to-play MMO's like WOW and the new DCUO came to mind as well. I want to play DCUO, but there's no way I'm paying for it :P. I ain't paying for Gold either!
Thing is, you can't use WoW or other persistent-content games as an analogy. Having an online world running 24 hours a day with millions of active participants is kinda like running a corporate mail server: it's gonna be big. So that's why they charge. They're gonna get you one way or the other; either they charge you by the month or they nickel-and-dime you with virtual purchases which become increasingly necessary the longer you play. The compromises made by the competition are actually well-documented and actually do have a significant effect on the key aspect of an MMO--actually playing it.What I gathered from what you said, is that MMO's are worth the money, right? I'm not disputing the value players get out of MMO's at all. I personally, just won't / can't pay for them.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6286366.html?tag=siteblogs%3Btitle%3B2
Used games must pay $10. Similar to what Madden has done I believe. What do you guys think of this? I ahven't bought used in a while, so I would end up getting new, if I do purchase it.
Bardock47
What's "Muliplayer"? Do we want that?
Makari! Brilliant, well-thought out post. A nice comparision of the movie and car industries to the gaming industry. :)
[QUOTE="McStrongfast"]No you said there'd be zero impact and Gamestop is the only one impacted by this. Moving the goalposts there.MakariWithout looking back, I'm pretty sure *I* said and implied in the original comment that if used games are being boycotted, the only person feeling the difference is going to be GameStop. I was shooting for the blindingly obvious/facetious statement. If that is the standard you're going to set for a discussion, I'm not even going to bother.The argument that was in support of was that it would have no negative impact on sales. And you appeared to agree by inferring this only affects those who buy games used from Gamestop.
That argument is untrue for the reasons I've mentioned and you've mostly ignored.
I doubt this used tax is the reason why UFC 2010 underperformed, but I'm sure it had some quantifiable negative impact on sales. It certainly doesn't help. And for Homefront I think it's an unwise move considering the market it's launching into.
Also, while unicorns are majestic creatures, I don't think you have the right to end a discussion by invoking the "unserious argument, why I'm leaving!" clause here. In that case I retroactively end this discussion at the point of unicorn involvement and win by default.
[QUOTE="Not-A-Stalker"]I didn't read because I'm lazy. Is this gonna be just how Madden is? You gotta type in the code on the back of the manual then you can play online? Isn't that tied to your gamertag/PSN though? I won't be able to take my game over a friends and play online? If I let my friend borrow my game, he can't play online? I'm not cool with that.Antantics
Then let him try it at yours? If he likes it he can buy it. I think its good that certain companies do this now. Im not against used games ive brought the odd title myself used but the majority I buy new. Why? Support the developer and give them the money not the store I buy it from who get a cut of a new purchase anyway (abiet a small cut)
One of the age old perks of owning a video game and having friends is you're able to let them borrow games, and you're able to borrow games from them. Tell me you don't consider that a form of piracy. If companies are taking out features like this, that's not cool. How can you get behind that? :/[QUOTE="Antantics"][QUOTE="Not-A-Stalker"]I didn't read because I'm lazy. Is this gonna be just how Madden is? You gotta type in the code on the back of the manual then you can play online? Isn't that tied to your gamertag/PSN though? I won't be able to take my game over a friends and play online? If I let my friend borrow my game, he can't play online? I'm not cool with that.Not-A-Stalker
Then let him try it at yours? If he likes it he can buy it. I think its good that certain companies do this now. Im not against used games ive brought the odd title myself used but the majority I buy new. Why? Support the developer and give them the money not the store I buy it from who get a cut of a new purchase anyway (abiet a small cut)
One of the age old perks of owning a video game and having friends is you're able to let them borrow games, and you're able to borrow games from them. Tell me you don't consider that a form of piracy. If companies are taking out features like this, that's not cool. How can you get behind that? :/My thing is why should game publishers get special treatment? Aftermarkets and secondhand markets are not unique to games. Indeed, they're everywhere, including in copyrighted media like books. BTW, I'm not thinking about used book stores. I'm thinking more of public libraries.That argument is untrue for the reasons I've mentioned and you've mostly ignored.It didn't affect sales much. Most gamers simply don't know.I doubt this used tax is the reason why UFC 2010 underperformed, but I'm sure it had some quantifiable negative impact on sales. It certainly doesn't help.McStrongfast
You know who sells the most retail video games in the US by a landslide? Wal-Mart. You know what individual platform outsells PC retail or online, or any single console? Online CASUAL gaming, like Bejeweled. Those two facts alone are at odds with the culture of a place like this forum, but that's the reality of the gaming market. People that care, notice, and follow things like this are the minority, and an extreme one at that.
The odds of that used sales are devalued became a major factor in the retail sales of one game in particular while other games with the same system being unaffected... while possible, those are very low odds (especially compared to other things like 'Being Released Alongside That Game That Won Every Single GOTY Award Possible, or the ever-famous Being A Sports Game Launched Alongside The Biggest Sports Event In The World But Whoops, Not THAT Sport). As you noted, there are other, more obvious, more likely factors at play.
Quantifiable negative impact maybe, but you're talking fractions of a percent. Hence - unicorns. Statistically speaking (within the margin of error!), it's as likely that unicorns had something to do with it. Given a year or two, the gaming public might start to catch up on this knowledge and then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, though.
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