How did Bioware go so wrong?

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]

After playing Skyrim for all weekend, I decided to slightly mix things up a little earlier today by pulling out my copy of Dragon Age: Origins.

Now, I don't know if you've actually played Dragon Age: Origins. The problem with the game is that it gets a stigma attached to it simply because of Dragon Age II, that bastardized excuse for a game that is supposed to be its sequel, and because Bioware made it, who seem to have no f***ing clue these days.

But the thing with Origins is, it is great. Fantastic. It is arguably Bioware's last great game, and definitely the last great RPG they developed. It stands as a masterpiece in its genre, and is one of the deepest, most complex RPGs developed in the last decade and a half, and it is indisputably Bioware's best work since Baldur's Gate 2. It also stands as one of the greatest RPGs ever developed.

The story may have been nothing special, and the overall setting may have been highly derivative, but the overall atmosphere was brilliant, the quest structure is probably second to none, the music was wonderful, the characterization was great, the dialog was tightly written, the combat and gameplay mechanics were great, and overall, it was probably the last bastion of the true old complex RPG that made no bones about what it was, and did not even attempt to streamline any of its components for the mass audience (Skyrim, great game though it is, does streamline its elements heavily to keep them accessible. I have no issues with this, as unlike other games, streamlining here does not mean that said elements are compromised)

My question is, how did Bioware go from making a game as good as this, a game that borders on being an all time masterpiece, to the worthless piece of s**t that was Dragon Age II? How did they go so wrong? Where did they go so wrong?

And considering their increased (misguided) push towards moving away from the traditional RPG market, is there really no chance that I can see a true sequel to Dragon Age Origins, a game that proudly upholds the tradition of the old WRPG that Origins so proudly tried to usher into the 21st century?

Senor-Dweedle

Bioware is Canadian.

[QUOTE="Senor-Dweedle"][QUOTE="charizard1605"]

After playing Skyrim for all weekend, I decided to slightly mix things up a little earlier today by pulling out my copy of Dragon Age: Origins.

Now, I don't know if you've actually played Dragon Age: Origins. The problem with the game is that it gets a stigma attached to it simply because of Dragon Age II, that bastardized excuse for a game that is supposed to be its sequel, and because Bioware made it, who seem to have no f***ing clue these days.

But the thing with Origins is, it is great. Fantastic. It is arguably Bioware's last great game, and definitely the last great RPG they developed. It stands as a masterpiece in its genre, and is one of the deepest, most complex RPGs developed in the last decade and a half, and it is indisputably Bioware's best work since Baldur's Gate 2. It also stands as one of the greatest RPGs ever developed.

The story may have been nothing special, and the overall setting may have been highly derivative, but the overall atmosphere was brilliant, the quest structure is probably second to none, the music was wonderful, the characterization was great, the dialog was tightly written, the combat and gameplay mechanics were great, and overall, it was probably the last bastion of the true old complex RPG that made no bones about what it was, and did not even attempt to streamline any of its components for the mass audience (Skyrim, great game though it is, does streamline its elements heavily to keep them accessible. I have no issues with this, as unlike other games, streamlining here does not mean that said elements are compromised)

My question is, how did Bioware go from making a game as good as this, a game that borders on being an all time masterpiece, to the worthless piece of s**t that was Dragon Age II? How did they go so wrong? Where did they go so wrong?

And considering their increased (misguided) push towards moving away from the traditional RPG market, is there really no chance that I can see a true sequel to Dragon Age Origins, a game that proudly upholds the tradition of the old WRPG that Origins so proudly tried to usher into the 21st century?

Thefatness16

Bioware is Canadian.

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

Sure Origins is the better game than Dragon Age II (I assume that's what you're comparing). Not one of the greatest RPG's ever, I just disagree with charizard on that point. I still enjoy Bioware titles. I don't expect every game with Bioware on the label to be a masterpiece. I take it for what it is and have fun. Bottom line is I enjoy what they put out, even it doesn't top their previous works.

A game developer, aka a business, creates a video game for PROFIT? For the MONEY?

Why I never. :P

I understand DA II was drasticallly different than Origins, and it wasn't as good. Wasn't arguing that. All I said was I simply take the game for what it is, without comparing it to previous installments, or other works of said developer, and enjoy it for it is. And assuming that they made the game simply to "troll" the fans makes me think you're a little weird mate. They played around with the formula, and pissed off the dedicated fanbase. I'm sure they get that, but I'm also 100% certain that during development they didn't change the game up simply for the "lulz" and retaliation from their fanbases.

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"][QUOTE="cain006"]Nobody's saying that dragon age 2 is better than origins, that guy was just saying that TC is overrating Origins, which he is.

cain006

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] It recieves hate because of the changes to formulas that were never needed on the first place. Instead of continuing the success of the first game, they simply wanted to troll the fans. A similar case happened with killzone 3, the changed what worked in that game and now killzone 3 gets the hate for it. Devs do it for the money, we retaliate because, well, we're fans. What would cod fans feel like if the turned the next cod into a swat 3 clone? Yeah there you have it.edo-tensei

A game developer, aka a business, creates a video game for PROFIT? For the MONEY?

Why I never. :P

I understand DA II was drasticallly different than Origins, and it wasn't as good. Wasn't arguing that. All I said was I simply take the game for what it is, without comparing it to previous installments, or other works of said developer, and enjoy it for it is. And assuming that they made the game simply to "troll" the fans makes me think you're a little weird mate. They played around with the formula, and pissed off the dedicated fanbase. I'm sure they get that, but I'm also 100% certain that during development they didn't change the game up simply for the "lulz" and retaliation from their fanbases.

Well I can't comment on the activity of the Bioware forums.

However, my favorite game/series of all time is Megaman X sir. Take a look at X7 and X8.

I guess you're right, I still haven't recovered.

[QUOTE="cain006"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] No, he's right on point. The game get praised because it was brilliant especially the pc version. You must not be a fan I take it?DarkLink77

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="cain006"]Oh I liked it the first time, second time I tried to play through it I realized just how much was wrong with the game. I stopped after about 20 hours because I got bored by all the monotony. It's definitely worth playing once, but I don't think it's a great game.

cain006

Excuse me, but I'm a little lost. Which one are you two talking about, Origins or 2? :P

Dont see where Bioware has gone wrong besides DA2, they haven't earned the failure title like Capcom and Square Enix.

Dont see where Bioware has gone wrong besides DA2, they haven't earned the failure title like Capcom and Square Enix.

Ballroompirate

Failure? Explain.

[QUOTE="Thefatness16"]

[QUOTE="Senor-Dweedle"] Dragon age 2 was better, lay off the stuff m8. Mass effect 3 gonna be great too, go back to your weirdo foreign games if you dont like pure bred American titles.Senor-Dweedle

Bioware is Canadian.

Not all of us are American though.

Explain that.

Excuse me, but I'm a little lost. Which one are you two talking about, Origins or 2? :P

Lionheart08

ive enjoyed quite a few of biowars games, but after dragon age 2, and the things that they have announced for mass effect 3....im very worried for mass effect 3, i want it to be the pinacal of the mass effect trilogy, but i worry still that bioware may just end up making mass effect 3 gears in space, or dead space 2 without the horror

[QUOTE="Ballroompirate"]

Dont see where Bioware has gone wrong besides DA2, they haven't earned the failure title like Capcom and Square Enix.

MLBknights58

Failure? Explain.

Capcom- milking Street Fighter 4 and MvsC,Lost Planet 2 (so bad), rebooting DMC when it doesn't need to be,Dark Void (another bad game)

Square Enix- continuing to pile drive the Final Fantasy name to the ground,mediocre games pretty much this whole entire gen except for 3 games.

In their own words: "We want the CoD crowd."

[QUOTE="campzor"]one of the best games released last year and 2+ million sales... yee...bioware are doing stuff wrong..DarkLink77

You didn't play it, did you?

Also i HAVE played me2...and its way better than that POS me1

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

[QUOTE="Ballroompirate"]

Dont see where Bioware has gone wrong besides DA2, they haven't earned the failure title like Capcom and Square Enix.

Ballroompirate

Failure? Explain.

Capcom- milking Street Fighter 4 and MvsC,Lost Planet 2 (so bad), rebooting DMC when it doesn't need to be,Dark Void (another bad game)

Square Enix- continuing to pile drive the Final Fantasy name to the ground,mediocre games pretty much this whole entire gen except for 3 games.

I dont think you not liking FF13=pile driving the name to the ground. Its just you dont like it. People need to learn what opinions are.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="campzor"]one of the best games released last year and 2+ million sales... yee...bioware are doing stuff wrong..campzor

You didn't play it, did you?

Also i HAVE played me2...and its way better than that POS me1

[QUOTE="Ballroompirate"]

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

Failure? Explain.

finalfantasy94

Capcom- milking Street Fighter 4 and MvsC,Lost Planet 2 (so bad), rebooting DMC when it doesn't need to be,Dark Void (another bad game)

Square Enix- continuing to pile drive the Final Fantasy name to the ground,mediocre games pretty much this whole entire gen except for 3 games.

I dont think you not liking FF13=pile driving the name to the ground. Its just you dont like it. People need to learn what opinions are.

Agreed with the second poster. Releasing improved versions of the game is a tad much, but fans, or newbies who missed out on the first iteration will no doubtedly appreciate said versions. And yeah I liked Lost Planet 1 and 2. So you want DMC to die therefore Capcom is a failure yes, I understand now.

Square Enix has released some quality titles and no they have not driven the FF name into the ground. Those two companies may have taken a hit in your eyes, but to me they are still some of my favorites.

I don't think Bioware is at that point yet. They release one not-so-hot game and something terrible is happening at the studio? I'd like to see how ME3 turns out and their next game as well.

They've released three games that are among my favorites this gen (ME 1 & 2 and DA: Origins). Sure ME2 has simpler RPG mechanics, but I didn't think that was such a bad thing. Dragon Age II's streamlined gameplay was a mistake, I agree.

[QUOTE="Senor-Dweedle"][QUOTE="Thefatness16"]

Bioware is Canadian.

Nega3

Not all of us are American though.

Explain that.

It was EA.

Mass Effect was made under Microsoft. Dragon Age: Origins was in development since 2005 I believe. Sure, EA bought up BioWare and Dragon Age: Origins was later released under their label, but that game was basically set in stone. But under EA we received Massively Defective 2 and Dragon Age 2. BioWare are a joke. CD Projekt Red are the current kings of BioWare's CRPG type games. The Witcher is just that damn good.

Basically 3 main reasons, they are others but these are the main ones

1. Money- they wanted piles of money mountains of money
2. More money- they wanted to even MORE money
3. And finally most importantly- Its all about the money

So basically every decision made by Boware has been about money

[QUOTE="cain006"]

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"] No, he's right on point. The game get praised because it was brilliant especially the pc version. You must not be a fan I take it?DarkLink77

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="cain006"]Oh I liked it the first time, second time I tried to play through it I realized just how much was wrong with the game. I stopped after about 20 hours because I got bored by all the monotony. It's definitely worth playing once, but I don't think it's a great game.

charizard1605

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Funny, the more I played it, the more I enjoyed it. I beat that game three times back to back, and I'll probably go back again soon.DarkLink77

Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler.

Oh and we want Call of Duty's audience.

Mass Effect 2 is gears of war level bad. I can't take that game seriously with the writing and gameplay. I thought it was one of the dumbest games I've ever played.

The story may have been nothing special, and the overall setting may have been highly derivative, but the overall atmosphere was brilliant, the quest structure is probably second to none, the music was wonderful, the characterization was great, the dialog was tightly written, the combat and gameplay mechanics were great, and overall, it was probably the last bastion of the true old complex RPG that made no bones about what it was

charizard1605

The atmosphere was far from brilliant at times. The quest structure and the progression of the game was just as derivative as the setting. I mean come on, I finished the Magi story and just by the structure of the game 'til that moment I knew what else was there in store for me. Let me guess: I'll be visiting the Elfs next, where I'll be doing a lot of boring chores for them, and at some point, I'll have to be doing the exact same thing in a Dwarf City--ohh, lo and behold, unfortunately I was right.

The game was predictable. The level design was horrible at times. The cities and the world felt lifeless. I will agree that I did enjoy the characters, the writing was good, and there was quite a few music tracks that I enjoyed. The combat was also good imo--even if a lot of people disagree--at least it was much better than Kotor or Jade Empire.

But really, I could write an essay on the problems that I found in the game. Now I haven't touched Dragon Age 2 because of my experience with the first, but really, when I see people complaining about something like the level design in the second one, then by god it must be horrible because if the first one is the standard of quality, then, god.

Mass Effect 2 is gears of war level bad. I can't take that game seriously with the writing and gameplay. I thought it was one of the dumbest games I've ever played.

nhh18

The reason why you thought it was one of the dumbest games you played is because it's a dumb game.

Meh to be frank after reading some of the posts I find the EA pointing to be hilarious. This is pretty much my reaction with the Blizzard situation. Where fans can't seem to accept that perhaps a company such as Bioware might have actually made the mistake themselves; sure, maybe EA was responsible, but a poor game comes out in the eyes of the fans, and what do you know? EA did it!

I mean really guys, come on. There have been a lot of good titles this gen under EA, but Bioware screws it up and EA is to blame. What next? A Dead Space or Burnout title comes out bellow the average, and we all know who we're going to blame in the first place.

Your question is okay, your essay about how Dragon Age is a masterpiece is f****ng wrong.

EADavidCage00

Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler, Hamburger Hepler.

Oh and we want Call of Duty's audience.

Vesica_Prime

[QUOTE="Ballroompirate"]

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

Failure? Explain.

finalfantasy94

Capcom- milking Street Fighter 4 and MvsC,Lost Planet 2 (so bad), rebooting DMC when it doesn't need to be,Dark Void (another bad game)

Square Enix- continuing to pile drive the Final Fantasy name to the ground,mediocre games pretty much this whole entire gen except for 3 games.

I dont think you not liking FF13=pile driving the name to the ground. Its just you dont like it. People need to learn what opinions are.

You must not remember the FF MMO that was terrible (thats 0/2 for FF MMOs btw) and FF13 did suck it's not a mater of opinion when the game is pretty much point A to point B, I'm sorry thats not a FF game. Even SE admitted the whole point A to point B thing was iffy and they wanted FFvs to be more open world like every damn FF game before FF13.

Dunno.

I have got a feeling that DA3 will be just like DA2.

If that happens,the series is dead for me.

Bioware needs to learn from CDProject RED.The Witcher 2 destroys every bioware game this gen.

Dunno.

I have got a feeling that DA3 will be just like DA2.

If that happens,the series is dead for me.

Bioware needs to learn from CDProject RED.The Witcher 2 destroys every bioware game this gen.

call_of_duty_10

You mean destroys them in pirates pirating their game :P

Really 95% of whats wrong with DAII is THAT IT WAS RUSHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like beloved RPG companies such as Troika, Black Isle, and Obsidian....and even Bethesda. And really Bioware has already learned from that mistake, in which they delayed ME3. However, the rest of the problems with DAII are the fans that cannot follow an unorthodox storyline, can't accept that this is not a heroic tale which the player has control of everything, and favor broken and unbalanced RPG systems JUST BECAUSE they are RPG systems. And really the leveling system of DAII is far superior to DAO's and the only real "dumbed down" thing about the RPG systems in DAII is the crafting system. DAO's was bloated however.texasgoldrush

LOL you do know that ME3 was delayed to put multi-player right, if anything its going to be a traight up Gears of war clone but lacking the all the essential components of soild MP that are found in modern shooters, why would someone waste their time with ME3"s multiplayer when they can play COD or Battlefeild.

I wish Like Batman AC and Skyrim, Bioware would just stick to making an amazing single player experience and the rest will take care of itself.

Also The reasonwhy DA II sucked was not only that it was rushed but that it was just s***t all around, form the twilight wanna be romances, the p**s poor writing and dialogue, the dumbed down combat, the out dated graphics and yes lest we forget "Teh presS a Butt5on and Teh Awesome happens."

[QUOTE="call_of_duty_10"]

Dunno.

I have got a feeling that DA3 will be just like DA2.

If that happens,the series is dead for me.

Bioware needs to learn from CDProject RED.The Witcher 2 destroys every bioware game this gen.

Ballroompirate

You mean destroys them in pirates pirating their game :P

[QUOTE="Ballroompirate"]

[QUOTE="call_of_duty_10"]

Dunno.

I have got a feeling that DA3 will be just like DA2.

If that happens,the series is dead for me.

Bioware needs to learn from CDProject RED.The Witcher 2 destroys every bioware game this gen.

call_of_duty_10

You mean destroys them in pirates pirating their game :P

I loled Hard mainly because its true..its like bioware trolled them

Has EA been mentioned yet ?