If we count the PC in system wars, how did the PS2 win last gen?

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]I already stated that windows is the Platform....your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means....hence requiring microsofts platform to game....you use a microsoft platform regardless of your hardware...even your hardware is designed SPECIFICALLY to support microsofts software...Vandalvideo

strawman? anyone?

heres a tip...learn to argue

finish the quote...

"your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means.... "

Finish the quote..."your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means.... "Kronos6

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]Finish the quote..."your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means.... "Vandalvideo

lol....when will you get it through your head...as long as you use microsoft on your pc...that is your platform

the pc itself is no platform....its platform is defined by the software it uses...so microsoft is YOUR platform

Because games for windows is a new brand and isnt even a year old in its lifespan.....that is a matter of building infrastructure

if microsoft doesnt control pc gaming...why is it that most upcoming games and most games in the past 10 years have all used direct x.....please explain THAT to me...

Kronos6

so ms controls pc gaming !!. can you tell me that can ms wants to stop a game from appearing on windows if it wants to?

saying that because most pc games are on windows implies ms controls pc gaming is as stupid as saying that because all antivirus softwares come for windows ms controls antivirus softare industry

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]Finish the quote..."your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means.... "Kronos6

lol....when will you get it through your head...as long as you use microsoft on your pc...that is your platform

the pc itself is no platform....its platform is defined by the software it uses...so microsoft is YOUR platform

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

Because games for windows is a new brand and isnt even a year old in its lifespan.....that is a matter of building infrastructure

if microsoft doesnt control pc gaming...why is it that most upcoming games and most games in the past 10 years have all used direct x.....please explain THAT to me...

naval

so ms controls pc gaming !!. can you tell me that can ms wants to stop a game from appearing on windows if it wants to?

saying that because most pc games are on windows implies ms controls pc gaming is as stupid as saying that because all antivirus softwares come for windows ms controls antivirus softare industry

if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...

if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...Kronos6

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]Finish the quote..."your now argueing that the PC is not a microsoft platform...which isnt my arguement...my arguement is that the PC requires an operating system to give you the means.... "Vandalvideo

lol....when will you get it through your head...as long as you use microsoft on your pc...that is your platform

the pc itself is no platform....its platform is defined by the software it uses...so microsoft is YOUR platform

yea lets ignore the direct x compatibility problems....

yea lets ignore the direct x compatibility problems.... Kronos6

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...Vandalvideo

so the api's arent used for games then...i see...

[QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]

Because games for windows is a new brand and isnt even a year old in its lifespan.....that is a matter of building infrastructure

if microsoft doesnt control pc gaming...why is it that most upcoming games and most games in the past 10 years have all used direct x.....please explain THAT to me...

Kronos6

so ms controls pc gaming !!. can you tell me that can ms wants to stop a game from appearing on windows if it wants to?

saying that because most pc games are on windows implies ms controls pc gaming is as stupid as saying that because all antivirus softwares come for windows ms controls antivirus softare industry

if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...

they cannot stop anyone from using directx if its doesn't violates the general policies. for ex:- the ycan stop a game from apperaing on xbox 360 if they doesn't like it, but they can't do the same with pc. also there are alternatives to directx like opengl

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...Kronos6

so the api's arent used for games then...i see...

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...Vandalvideo

so the api's arent used for games then...i see...

ah so they are free that means that they still dont control...i see...they dont have to get paid...they are controlling the market by making thier api's STANDARD

[QUOTE="Kronos6"][QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]

Because games for windows is a new brand and isnt even a year old in its lifespan.....that is a matter of building infrastructure

if microsoft doesnt control pc gaming...why is it that most upcoming games and most games in the past 10 years have all used direct x.....please explain THAT to me...

naval

so ms controls pc gaming !!. can you tell me that can ms wants to stop a game from appearing on windows if it wants to?

saying that because most pc games are on windows implies ms controls pc gaming is as stupid as saying that because all antivirus softwares come for windows ms controls antivirus softare industry

if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...

they cannot stop anyone from using directx if its doesn't violates the general policies. for ex:- the ycan stop a game from apperaing on xbox 360 if they doesn't like it, but they can't do the same with pc. also there are alternatives to directx like opengl

when was the last time open gl reigned the pc game market....when 3dfx was around....open gl is nice cause its open...but lets face it...its becoming a lost art in the game world

ah so they are free that means that they still dont control...i see...they dont have to get paid...they are controlling the market by making thier api's STANDARDKronos6

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]ah so they are free that means that they still dont control...i see...they dont have to get paid...they are controlling the market by making thier api's STANDARDVandalvideo

your speaking as if the api and software industries are independent....your ignoring the mutual relationship between developement and api's as if thats not control....when you can make your api a standard in an industry that means you have control in that industry....gaming isnt seperate from software development...you speak on it like it is

your speaking as if the api and software industries are independent....your ignoring the mutual relationship between developement and api's as if thats not control....when you can make your api a standard in an industry that means you have control in that industry....gaming isnt seperate from software development...you speak on it like it isKronos6

[QUOTE="naval"]

they cannot stop anyone from using directx if its doesn't violates the general policies. for ex:- the ycan stop a game from apperaing on xbox 360 if they doesn't like it, but they can't do the same with pc. also there are alternatives to directx like opengl

Kronos6

when was the last time open gl reigned the pc game market....when 3dfx was around....open gl is nice cause its open...but lets face it...its becoming a lost art in the game world

simply speaking they don't control anything unless it violates the general directx agreement. so basically they control the directx and condition under which it should be used. but control of pc gamign would imply tha they can stop a game from appearing on pc if they want, which they can't or they charge money for each game that is released on pc.

opengl even though not used is still an option, if anyone is not happy with directx. id's new engine i afaik is based on onengl for one

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]your speaking as if the api and software industries are independent....your ignoring the mutual relationship between developement and api's as if thats not control....when you can make your api a standard in an industry that means you have control in that industry....gaming isnt seperate from software development...you speak on it like it isVandalvideo

the force on the industry itself is that hardware and software is developed in accordance to the existing opportunities put forth by microsoft os systems....lowering the price on a game isnt a fail measure on that force...they dont have to tell anyone to use direct x...they do it because the systems are already in place which make it foolish to do otherwise...that is control....

i can tell you jump into the lions den or i will shoot you....

you still have control at that point....your limiting the options you dont have to be followd to have control...you simply need to limit options

read the art of war...it might help you understand business

[QUOTE="evilbanshee"]

If M$ controls PC gaming, why is it that most upcoming PC games aren't part of the GFW brand or that most GFW games don't use Live? Please explain that to me. I'd love to hear it.

Kronos6

Because games for windows is a new brand and isnt even a year old in its lifespan.....that is a matter of building infrastructure

if microsoft doesnt control pc gaming...why is it that most upcoming games and most games in the past 10 years have all used direct x.....please explain THAT to me...

Your answer was less than satisfying. Building a brand? Why not just order all devs to follow the GFW guidelines or prohibit them from making the game in the first place.

As for DirectX, well that has become the standard much like Windows but obviously no one is being held at gunpoint if John Carmack is able to continue using OpenGL which is a real annoyance for M$. And if they ever decide to charge an outrageous fee for DirectX, you can bet developers would start looking for alternatives in a heartbeat.

the force on the industry itself is that hardware and software is developed in accordance to the existing opportunities put forth by microsoft os systems....lowering the price on a game isnt a fail measure on that force...they dont have to tell anyone to use direct x...they do it because the systems are already in place which make it foolish to do otherwise...that is control....i can tell you jump into the lions den or i will shoot you....you still have control at that point....your limiting the options you dont have to be followd to have control...you simply need to limit optionsread the art of war...it might help you understand businessKronos6

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]I'd say its because the majority of PCs sold are not gaming rigs and never will be used for gaming short of minesweeper and solitaire, its too hard a number to keep track of. Also because there is no cut and dry launch date for PC's you can't break sales down into generations as easily as you can with consoles.CaseyWegner

we go by games here and we reset the pc game count with the start of each new console generation.

"We reset the PC game count with the start of each new console generation"......gosh whats wrong with this statement. That doesn't even sound right. Hmm....PC...Console....hmmm. PC=Computer, Console=game system. No for real, whats the purpose of counting the PC, its never in competition. No matter how you want to twist it.

[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]I'd say its because the majority of PCs sold are not gaming rigs and never will be used for gaming short of minesweeper and solitaire, its too hard a number to keep track of. Also because there is no cut and dry launch date for PC's you can't break sales down into generations as easily as you can with consoles.EvilZero86

we go by games here and we reset the pc game count with the start of each new console generation.

"We reset the PC game count with the start of each new console generation"......gosh whats wrong with this statement. That doesn't even sound right. Hmm....PC...Console....hmmm. PC=Computer, Console=game system. No for real, whats the purpose of counting the PC, its never in competition. No matter how you want to twist it.

i game on a pc

i game on a console

see the resembelance

100% of Wiis were bought to play games. 100% of PCs werent bought for gaming. If PCs are the #1 selling gaming system then that means cellphones are the #1 selling portable gaming system and the DS is in second place. Carmilla31

He speaks truth.

Ugh, 14 pages?

It's simple: Whoever wins "system wars" is actually 2nd place, right after the PC. Still a huge honour. That's all there is to it.

No need to crown an-already-king, huh?

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...flintgijoe

OMG! Make it stop! The stupidity is blinding here.

Here is a quick question for you.... Do you game on a Microsoft OS? Or do you use linux and mac OSX exclusively?

Truth is you, like most every PC gamer, support M$'s OS. It can be hard to own up to, but it is the truth.

I also use a Nvidia graphics card to game, and an Intel CPU. I have a Coolermaster case. Western Digital HDD, Gigabyte mobo, etc, etc. Using your logic, the electricity companies own console gaming, because how are you going to get that console running without a power outlet?:lol:

MS has complte control over the 360, not PC. GET OVER IT.

[QUOTE="EvilZero86"][QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]I'd say its because the majority of PCs sold are not gaming rigs and never will be used for gaming short of minesweeper and solitaire, its too hard a number to keep track of. Also because there is no cut and dry launch date for PC's you can't break sales down into generations as easily as you can with consoles.naval

we go by games here and we reset the pc game count with the start of each new console generation.

"We reset the PC game count with the start of each new console generation"......gosh whats wrong with this statement. That doesn't even sound right. Hmm....PC...Console....hmmm. PC=Computer, Console=game system. No for real, whats the purpose of counting the PC, its never in competition. No matter how you want to twist it.

i game on a pc

i game on a console

see the resembelance

That is the only kind of support you are going to see for the PC being included in System Wars. Simplistic statements: I play games on PC. I play games on console. The Consoles are "systems". The PC is a "System". Etc...

Any look deeper and the diferences are clear. PC's are not in competition with individual home consoles any more than cell phones are with the DS. You could say that PC's gaming is in competition with home consoles as a group, but it isn't a 4'th competetor in the hot Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo console race. The PC market isn't largely affected by last gen's PS2 dominence or the outcome of the current console wars. It is part of a diferent market.

Thats why it is quite absurd to take it into account in the current console wars. The gaming industry's focus is clearly on the home consoles. The PC lost the war to home consoles a while back. That said, the PC still sees great support for gaming enthusiests and isn't going to die soon, but it just is not in direct competition with Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo.

And that is a fact.

[QUOTE="flintgijoe"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...trix5817

OMG! Make it stop! The stupidity is blinding here.

Here is a quick question for you.... Do you game on a Microsoft OS? Or do you use linux and mac OSX exclusively?

Truth is you, like most every PC gamer, support M$'s OS. It can be hard to own up to, but it is the truth.

I also use a Nvidia graphics card to game, and an Intel CPU. I have a Coolermaster case. Western Digital HDD, Gigabyte mobo, etc, etc. Using your logic, the electricity companies own console gaming, because how are you going to get that console running without a power outlet?:lol:

MS has complte control over the 360, not PC. GET OVER IT.

the bottom line is you have a choice over which video card to support...which cpu to support....which hard drive to support....none of those options have a huge bearing as to what you can play as long as they meet a performance bar.....your OS though? you have no choice but to go with windows if you want a complete game experience.....

you can go with ati...nvidia video card....soundblaster sound card....turtle beach....internal soundcard...seagate...western digital hdd...fujitsu...none of that really matters since they all SUPPORT MICROSOFT WINDOWS.....till you choose your os....so you NEED microsoft to game...the bottom line is MS controls the market...they have a foothold on the consumer's choice when it comes to gaming...so yes...MS has control of the consumers option regarding OS's.....because if you want to game...and gaming is your priority...you dont have much of a choice but to use MS

[QUOTE="flintgijoe"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]if you use direct X to write that software then microsoft obviously has some control over that industry...trix5817

OMG! Make it stop! The stupidity is blinding here.

Here is a quick question for you.... Do you game on a Microsoft OS? Or do you use linux and mac OSX exclusively?

Truth is you, like most every PC gamer, support M$'s OS. It can be hard to own up to, but it is the truth.

I also use a Nvidia graphics card to game, and an Intel CPU. I have a Coolermaster case. Western Digital HDD, Gigabyte mobo, etc, etc. Using your logic, the electricity companies own console gaming, because how are you going to get that console running without a power outlet?:lol:

MS has complte control over the 360, not PC. GET OVER IT.

You could use Ati instead of Nvidia, AMD instead of Intel, and any number of diferent brands of cases, motherboards etc, etc... But you can't really avoid useing Microsoft's OS can you?

Does that mean they have complete control over PC gaming? Of course not. But they are significant beneficiaries, like Nvidia, or Intel, or that Gigabyte motherbord you use, only they are used on almost all PC's gaming or otherwise.

I mean why do you think they make stuff like DirectX? It's not because they plan to post it on source exchange and share it with the world. It is one more reason to make that $100-$200 upgrade.

I'm not talking about complete control, I'm just trying to point out how narrow minded it is to try to make the PC out to be a direct competetor to the X360, PS3 or Nintendo's console. It just isn't.

[QUOTE="trix5817"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Kronos6"]

Kronos6

I also use a Nvidia graphics card to game, and an Intel CPU. I have a Coolermaster case. Western Digital HDD, Gigabyte mobo, etc, etc. Using your logic, the electricity companies own console gaming, because how are you going to get that console running without a power outlet?:lol:

MS has complte control over the 360, not PC. GET OVER IT.

the bottom line is you have a choice over which video card to support...which cpu to support....which hard drive to support....none of those options have a huge bearing as to what you can play as long as they meet a performance bar.....your OS though? you have no choice but to go with windows if you want a complete game experience.....

you can go with ati...nvidia video card....soundblaster sound card....turtle beach....internal soundcard...seagate...western digital hdd...fujitsu...none of that really matters since they all SUPPORT MICROSOFT WINDOWS.....till you choose your os....so you NEED microsoft to game...the bottom line is MS controls the market...they have a foothold on the consumer's choice when it comes to gaming...so yes...MS has control of the consumers option regarding OS's.....because if you want to game...and gaming is your priority...you dont have much of a choice but to use MS

you can go with ati...nvidia video card....soundblaster sound card....turtle beach....internal soundcard...seagate...western digital hdd...fujitsu...none of that really matters since they all SUPPORT MICROSOFT WINDOWS.....till you choose your os....so you NEED microsoft to game...the bottom line is MS controls the market...they have a foothold on the consumer's choice when it comes to gaming...so yes...MS has control of the consumers option regarding OS's.....because if you want to game...and gaming is your priority...you dont have much of a choice but to use MS

Kronos6

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

you can go with ati...nvidia video card....soundblaster sound card....turtle beach....internal soundcard...seagate...western digital hdd...fujitsu...none of that really matters since they all SUPPORT MICROSOFT WINDOWS.....till you choose your os....so you NEED microsoft to game...the bottom line is MS controls the market...they have a foothold on the consumer's choice when it comes to gaming...so yes...MS has control of the consumers option regarding OS's.....because if you want to game...and gaming is your priority...you dont have much of a choice but to use MS

Hewkii

you mean an emulator that violates eula and doesnt work properly with most games?

you can reverse engineer anything to work where it isnt supposed to...remember the dreamcast and xbox running snes and nes games?? that doesnt mean its exactly LEGAL

Bottom line: The PC counts in System Wars. The PC has the most AAA, AA, AAAE, and AAE games. Get over it.NerdMan

I got no problem with that....just admit your a microsoft gamer

[QUOTE="NerdMan"]Bottom line: The PC counts in System Wars. The PC has the most AAA, AA, AAAE, and AAE games. Get over it.Kronos6

I got no problem with that....just admit your a microsoft gamer

I'm a gamer who uses a Microsoft OS. Yes, I admit it.

you can reverse engineer anything to work where it isnt supposed to...remember the dreamcast and xbox running snes and nes games?? that doesnt mean its exactly LEGAL

Kronos6

[QUOTE="themagicbum9720"]

model as in brand? most have custom pc's.

Hewkii

that's my point.

And thats my point .PC gamers use custome built pc's with different stats and the ability to play games for a differnt period of time. How can anyone say the pcwins every generation when you have to upgrade that pc at least once through that 5 year cycle to even play all the games. The pc doesnt win any generation no matter how you view it.

[QUOTE="Polaris_choice"]

[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]the ps2 didn't win. people just like to exclude things or make excusesto make their system look better.CaseyWegner

Um actually the PS2 did win it sold more then both consoles combined and unless you can back your sale figures up of any one pc outselling the PS2 then the facts still stand the PS2 is the winner.

you honestly believe that there were more ps2s sold last generation than pcs? even if the ps2 somehow managed that feat it still didn't win because the pc had more AAAEs and AAEs and that's what determines the winner here.

Um I gurantee you the PS2 sold more then any one pc. The PS2 is a one console made by 1 company you are taking pc sales including Dell, HP, AlienWare, Custome built pc's etc and comparing all there sells to one console? Because you would have too as that is the only way pc's could have beaten the PS2 in sales. As I said before not all pc;s are capable of playing those AAE and not any pc you build at the begining of a generation is going to play games well as long as a console so to even break pc gens up in generations is pointless as you are completely replacing peaces of the hardware within that 5 to 6 year cycle.

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

you can reverse engineer anything to work where it isnt supposed to...remember the dreamcast and xbox running snes and nes games?? that doesnt mean its exactly LEGAL

Hewkii

cider is a possibility..and theres tons of compatibility issues with it and direct X....we arent even getting into direct x10...were talking about problems with dx9....so you pointing at that really has no bearing on anything... most games have to be cider "enhanced" to function properly..Ea sports is helping there..so you get madden on a mac...great...

[QUOTE="Kronos6"]

you can reverse engineer anything to work where it isnt supposed to...remember the dreamcast and xbox running snes and nes games?? that doesnt mean its exactly LEGAL

Hewkii

"Though in some cases, Gupta indicated users are bound to see 10 to 15 percent lower frame rates than they would in a truly native game." Did you even read up on that software?

The funny thing is that even though PC gamers are quick to point out alternatives, it isn't like they would actually use them. PC Gamers are in Microsoft's camp. Not such a bad thing, just hard for the anti-M$ people to own up to.

Um I gurantee you the PS2 sold more then any one pc. The PS2 is a one console made by 1 company you are taking pc sales including Dell, HP, AlienWare, Custome built pc's etc and comparing all there sells to one console? Because you would have too as that is the only way pc's could have beaten the PS2 in sales. As I said before not all pc;s are capable of playing those AAE and not any pc you build at the begining of a generation is going to play games well as long as a console so to even break pc gens up in generations is pointless as you are completely replacing peaces of the hardware within that 5 to 6 year cycle.

Polaris_choice

the pc counts as a platform by itself. there's no need to divide it up into companies that make it or whatever. it's yet another reason why we don't use sales as the determining factor.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="themagicbum9720"]

model as in brand? most have custom pc's.

Polaris_choice

that's my point.

And thats my point .PC gamers use custome built pc's with different stats and the ability to play games for a differnt period of time. How can anyone say the pcwins every generation when you have to upgrade that pc at least once through that 5 year cycle to even play all the games. The pc doesnt win any generation no matter how you view it.

He speaks the truth. I mean what gen is my PC anyways? When I bought it I spent about 200$ On a video card, and it ran games that were new back then just fine. F.E.A.R. etc... It got owned by Oblivion though.