If ya hate Pirates ... DO you only buy New games???

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

LOL im just gonna have to explain all the wrong that people had that replied to my post.

1. they steal it from the database? odd last i checked you must not have heard of review copies being stolen in the mail, final product copies being stolen from the disc pressing plants, You do know that a game can often go gold and sit in disc replication for months before hand right? its more then plausible that a game goes gold its sent to the disc pressing plants for the million or so copies to be made and someone steals one and puts it online....MONTHS before release. How many people do that?? of all the people who MAKE pirated games how many people go to or work at disc pressing plants??

2. Buying used is the same thing as piracy? lol okay whatever you say, I guess the fact that even if the game copied is purchased *and not stolen* every single one after isn't purchased NO money is exchanged no process of capitol is gained by any one.except that first sell, from most people who get copies from friends who bought a copy. So I buy a game then sell it to a game place which is then sold to someone else, the process of capitol is maintained the original developer received money, the person me who purchased the game regained some of that spent money, the game place makes some money from the used game sale. ??? the developer gets money from the first sale after that only Gamestop, or other companies that buy and sell the games make money.

then we have the piracy....If the game is purchased which qualifies as a sale that the developer makes money from *which is highly unlikely piracy providers pride them selves on initial release times I.E before a game is even released* the original money is made by the developer but there after each download NO ONE gains money not a used gameplace which the developer does not make money from. and not the developer, and if its stolen? then no money is received no capitol gains happen.

Then we have the fact used game sales represent a license transfer sooooooooooooooo I buy the game then i give up my right to that game BUT the person that purchased it gains that right and therefor is a user, SOOOOOOOOO used game sales means the company maintains its saleswith phyical matter its the phycial propeteries. IE car. I buy the car and sell the car. people and the law treat the sale of the disk as a phyical property. BUt Once I am done beating the game I have less reasons to continue playing it where as a car is still needed. ..Piracy? the game is stolen therefor thats not a sale, then 1000 people download that game so thats 1000 games not sold but still played....where as 1000 people buy the game...then sell it used...


*shakes head*

Ravenlore_basic

you seem to equate all piracy as one that is stolen and never bought. AND the ONLY way you see it is that people distibute the games online. but this is not always the case.

I have seen soo much hate and venom toword Pirates in these forms ... and the reasons....

1. They are destroying the Games Industry
2. Developers are losing money because of them.
3. They make it so games cost so much... ETC

Developers makes games and it cost money to make them. People buy the game and then if they want sell the game online at Ebay, or to Game stores that sell used games. OR Trade with fellow Gamers for other games.

Thus many of the same complaints aginst Pirates can be blamed on people not buying and keeping games.Should MS ban people who are playing used games.(permanently connect the Game to the console).Billion of dollars are made at Game stores, and Ebay from selling used games. Billions of Dollars that could have gone to the Developers. I do not hear the same amount of hate on people who do not buy NEW games as Pirates even though the "harm" is the same. Also, it is true Publishers would love Digital Distribution in which you can not sell to other people.That time is coming soon.

Some People Pirate games as

1. They do not have the money to buy games
2. They do not have a credit card to Rent from places that allow them to.
3. They like to try many games and if they do not like them just not play them, as they are free.
4. Its just easy to get Copied games and would rather not pay full price for new games

The system as it is does not allow for a short trial of all lvls. If you do not like the game you can not take it back. And paying 60 for a game to find out it does not play like others said, or how the review looked, sucks.

Is there anyone out there that thinks used games is not a MULTI BILLION Dollar Industry. from Private sales, Ebay, gamefly, Amazon, ... Used games stores, blockbuster, and Gamestop....

DO people think that its just a few sales that does not harm the Games industry??

95% of th e time, i only buy new games

Is there anyone out there that thinks used games is not a MULTI BILLION Dollar Industry. from Private sales, Ebay, gamefly, Amazon, ... Used games stores, blockbuster, and Gamestop....

DO people think that its just a few sales that does not harm the Games industry??

Ravenlore_basic

I actually think some good points have been raised in this topic. The sale of pre owned software in the UK will soon become illegal if the bods in London have anything to say about it, because of exactly the reasons brought up in the origional post. The devs do not make any money from the re-sale, and are pushing to make it unlawful to do so. Now this brings up a massive grey area, as surely they would have to do the same for books, films and the like...people, pretty soon we are all gonna be screwed.

I actually think some good points have been raised in this topic. The sale of pre owned software in the UK will soon become illegal if the bods in London have anything to say about it, because of exactly the reasons brought up in the origional post. The devs do not make any money from the re-sale, and are pushing to make it unlawful to do so. Now this brings up a massive grey area, as surely they would have to do the same for books, films and the like...people, pretty soon we are all gonna be screwed.

WAJ

Soon you will be purchasing a license to some drm locked material that only you can legally view. You won't actually own the material, you can't do anything with the material other than what they want you to do with it. Want to rip a dvd to your computer? you will be out of luck soon. You will have to buy a license specifically for your computer. Want to put that movie on an mp3 player, you're out of luck and you will have to buy a license for your mp3 player. ect.

Its already happening, or at least trying to happen, with music.

There's nothing wrong with buying used. The responsibility lies solely on the developer to make a product good enough that most people who buy it would not want to turn around and sell it.

Besides, I would imagine used game sales are fairly marginal during the first 6 months a product is out.

Used games hurt the industry more than pirated games because legit customers who can afford to buy new games are not doing that. 99% of pirates don't pay for games because they can't afford it so those aren't lost sales.

[QUOTE="WAJ"]

I actually think some good points have been raised in this topic. The sale of pre owned software in the UK will soon become illegal if the bods in London have anything to say about it, because of exactly the reasons brought up in the origional post. The devs do not make any money from the re-sale, and are pushing to make it unlawful to do so. Now this brings up a massive grey area, as surely they would have to do the same for books, films and the like...people, pretty soon we are all gonna be screwed.

htekemerald

Soon you will be purchasing a license to some drm locked material that only you can legally view. You won't actually own the material, you can't do anything with the material other than what they want you to do with it. Want to rip a dvd to your computer? you will be out of luck soon. You will have to buy a license specifically for your computer. Want to put that movie on an mp3 player, you're out of luck and you will have to buy a license for your mp3 player. ect.

Its already happening, or at least trying to happen, with music.

You're right it is already happening. I'm all for progress, im 32 yrs old and have been gaming longer than (lets face it) probably most of the people on these forums have been alive, but this is a step backwards in my opinion. The problem with games and other such media is that even today (i could be wrong on this) you dont actually own the material you buy, rather you own the right to use said material. Like i said, lots of grey areas around these issues which need to be resolved sooner rather than later.

I think naivity is shown in people automatically slating pirates and backing their own second hand selling of games. People see the word piracy and automatically go on the defensive, but the origional post was quite clear and precise. To be fair, I agree with the origional poster, a shedload of revenue for the games industry/devs is lost to second hand sales (as well as piracy), this is why devs are now pushing to make second hand sales illegal. Im pretty sure on the back of most IP it states that (and i paraphrase) It is unlawful to copy, sell, hire, or allow public performances of said material...but by selling your games on, you are infact technically breaking the law. Im not sure whether the store is breaking the law for re selling your item, but i bet you are for selling it back to them in the first place...lots of grey areas.....

/rant

i only ever buy used if i cant find a new copy

also pirating cant be justified i dont know why people are trying.

Used games hurt the industry more than pirated games because legit customers who can afford to buy new games are not doing that. 99% of pirates don't pay for games because they can't afford it so those aren't lost sales.

anshul89

I get the TCs point.

X Pirate d/ls MW. IW gets no money. 1 million copies are downloaded, flat loss on IW part.

X Friend borrows MW. IW gets no money. 5 million copies of CoD4 are sold, 1 million of those copies are loaned to 1-5 buddies, that is a potential loss of 5 million copies sold.

X Game store resells MW. IW gets no money. If MW sold lets say 5 million copies then 1 million copies are traded in and sold, thats a million lost sales for IW.

Anyways, pirating, loaning/borrowing, or buying used games are all damaging to the gaming industry. I guess people just try to justify it at whatever end they are on. I personally buy new games and I find it laughable when people point fingers at pirates, but probably borrow/loan games from friends.

Its also funny that as a PC gamer I have no rights to trade in or borrow/loan games at all.

I buy games brand new, use DD and buy games used.

The thing is buying games used annoys publishers ect not because we do it, but because the game retail stores sell them. Its because the publishers are working with them and paying for marketing, yet those stores are making money off their games without them, while the publishers are still paying for marketing to sell those games.

A chain retail store in the UK called GAME are incredibly unreasonable, they buy used games for less than their worth off people than if they are good sell them at £29 near full price. I hope those a holes go out of business, I hate them and other high street video game retailers so damn much. Thank God for Amazon because those guys make me hate gaming.

Its not much of a thing that we sell games between our selves such as on ebay and Amazon market place (ebay and Amazon aren't getting a cut).

But there is no good excuse for piracy.

The used market thing is also an excuse because that goes for everything. Used games aren't bad, thats just te greed of the publisher. someone has already paid for that copy, i'm just buying it off them, so really the original payment has just passed on to me.

I get the TCs point.

X Pirate d/ls MW. IW gets no money. 1 million copies are downloaded, flat loss on IW part.

X Friend borrows MW. IW gets no money. 5 million copies of CoD4 are sold, 1 million of those copies are loaned to 1-5 buddies, that is a potential loss of 5 million copies sold.

X Game store resells MW. IW gets no money. If MW sold lets say 5 million copies then 1 million copies are traded in and sold, thats a million lost sales for IW.

Anyways, pirating, loaning/borrowing, or buying used games are all damaging to the gaming industry. I guess people just try to justify it at whatever end they are on. I personally buy new games and I find it laughable when people point fingers at pirates, but probably borrow/loan games from friends.

Its also funny that as a PC gamer I have no rights to trade in or borrow/loan games at all.

CassiusGaius

First of all the money is going to Activision not Infinity Ward. Games being loaned can potentially make Activision money because some of the people playing the loaned copy may have not interest in the game at all. The ones playing the loaned copy may become so interested that they get their own copy. If they do Activision would be making more money. I think you are jealous that console gamers have more freedom than you so you want to take it away from them.

There is a point. Pre owned games damage the industry in *exactly the same way piracy does*. Publishers and developers don't get a cent from the sale. And of course trade multiple copies for X game deals make things even worse.skrat_01

Publishers aren't making money when you play a game a lot and you are not sending money to them, would you like that to change?

I have seen soo much hate and venom toword Pirates in these forms ... and the reasons....

1. They are destroying the Games Industry
2. Developers are losing money because of them.
3. They make it so games cost so much... ETC

Developers makes games and it cost money to make them. People buy the game and then if they want sell the game online at Ebay, or to Game stores that sell used games. OR Trade with fellow Gamers for other games.

Thus many of the same complaints aginst Pirates can be blamed on people not buying and keeping games.Should MS ban people who are playing used games.(permanently connect the Game to the console).Billion of dollars are made at Game stores, and Ebay from selling used games. Billions of Dollars that could have gone to the Developers. I do not hear the same amount of hate on people who do not buy NEW games as Pirates even though the "harm" is the same. Also, it is true Publishers would love Digital Distribution in which you can not sell to other people.That time is coming soon.

Some People Pirate games as

1. They do not have the money to buy games
2. They do not have a credit card to Rent from places that allow them to.
3. They like to try many games and if they do not like them just not play them, as they are free.
4. Its just easy to get Copied games and would rather not pay full price for new games

The system as it is does not allow for a short trial of all lvls. If you do not like the game you can not take it back. And paying 60 for a game to find out it does not play like others said, or how the review looked, sucks.

Ravenlore_basic

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]Pirating = illegal and IMO morally wrong. Buying used = legal and perfectly fine to me morally. Ravenlore_basic

SO even if the ends are the same.... Developer not getting paid for something they created ITS OKAY because its not stolen???

I'm sorry, but blaming used games for piracy is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. Consumers have the legal right to trade or resell any video games that legally own, just like with movies, music, cars, and other consumer goods.

Piracy is stealing, bottom line. If you can't afford a new game, than trade your old titles for the game or rent the game from a video store or Gamefly. And if those don't work, than simply wait till the game goes down in price. I don't have the money to purchase new releases on a regular basis, so I wait till they go down in price or become used at Gamestop.

People who pirate games should be thrown in jail. Piracy is no different than walking into a store and swiping a game off a shelf and walking out with it. There are no valid excuses for pirating games off the net. Its stealing, and the perpetrators should be punished with more than being banned from Xbox Live.

If your country had no law against software piracy, would you then consider it acceptable?

Legal/illegal isn't the same as right/wrong, laws aren't always based on morality, and both laws and morality vary depending on where you live.

In my view if you bought a used copy, you could had just as well pirated it, as my motivation for bying games is supporting the developers.

I think used game sales will come to an end soon, possibly with next gen consoles. PC software is there already with the likes of Steam, your game is tied to your account forever, and selling your account is not allowed.

I have a question for you people who say buying used games is wrong or no different than piracy. Would you support not allowing anything to be resold and bound only to you for the rest of your life? If you buy a computer, a car, a DVD, a book, than would you support not being allowed to resell it or buy a used version of that product?

All of you can't simply single out used games sales as evil when other consumer products can be resold countless times under the same standards. An old computer you pick up at a used computer store is not helping Dell's profits, and that used TV at at a pawn shop is not giving money back to Samsung. If you ban used game sales, than other consumer products should be held to the same standards and their rights to be resold should be taken away as well.

If you sell a used car to finance another one, than how is that any different from trading used games to pick up another title?

If your country had no law against software piracy, would you then consider it acceptable?

Legal/illegal isn't the same as right/wrong, laws aren't always based on morality, and both laws and morality vary depending on where you live.

In my view if you bought a used copy, you could had just as well pirated it, as my motivation for bying games is supporting the developers.

I think used game sales will come to an end soon, possibly with next gen consoles. PC software is there already with the likes of Steam, your game is tied to your account forever, and selling your account is not allowed.

ManicAce

Your first point is mooted by the fact that no one is going to sell games in a place they aren't going to make money at. If you want to support the developer you would help them more if you invested in their stock. You could be right about used game sales but at the same time core gaming would drive itself into oblivion.

I buy pre-owned games, simply because i think games on consoles are over-priced as they are, so i feel no obligation to 'support the developer', mostly because you're not supporting the developer at all. The developers get paid by the publisher. Buying the game supports the publisher, most of which are giant corporations.Doctor-McNinja

At least someone here knows how the industry works and I am not surprised that it is not one of the people that are saying that are "defending the industry" by encouraging publishers to screw over the consumers.

[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="skrat_01"]There is a point. Pre owned games damage the industry in *exactly the same way piracy does*. Publishers and developers don't get a cent from the sale. And of course trade multiple copies for X game deals make things even worse.skrat_01

Do you want the publisher to see money every time someone tries to play a game?

I'll be honest, i've pirated some games before. E.g. I downloaded Prototype (because i didnt really want it) and games like Suikoden 2, Chrono cross and played them with emulators. But i also own over 100 games which i purchased brand new so... Grey area???

I don't hate "pirates", they don't really harm sales because no matter how you slice they weren't going to buy the games anyway.

I only purchase new games, I think it is the best way to support developers. While I encourage others to only buy games new I support their right to rent, buy used or lend/borrow games.

Some people don't have places where they can trade, rent or buy used copies of a game. Have you ever tought about that?

I almost exclusively buy used now. I am indifferent to piracy and don't view it as "TEH DETH OF TEH GAMINZ!" as some do.

I buy new games cos generally pre owned ones are over priced. and i hate pirating you cant make a true collection when you do.

Some people don't have places where they can trade, rent or buy used copies of a game. Have you ever tought about that?

lizzardman666

One can do all those things over the Internet and using postage.

If you purchase a game, you have every right to sell it on after as it is your game. It isnt against any law (whereas buring off copies to sell or give to friends is). If you buy a used game, again, its within the law. You're money may not go to the developer/publisher, but they did get the money from the person who purchased it in the first case. Nidget

Those who are complaining against gaming piracy are most likely hypocrites. I'm sure they have pirated some form of media at least once in their life. I think their just angry that their no. 1 hobby (gaming) is polluting the industry, which is understandable. But to go out and say they are "scum" is preposterous. There are worse people in there, and I'm sure those in not as fortunate countries have to resort to piracy.

Please note I am not condoning piracy, I have never pirated a game, and I don't plan on doing so.

What absolutely pathetic logic used to justify piracy. You can buy any number of things from computers to cars to clothes used. I guess it's okay to steal these things now because the original creators aren't reaping profits from the used sales.

If you buy something used you can rest assured that the original creator did in fact profit somewhere in the chain of commerce. There is nothing morally or legally wrong about this. On the other hand, taking something that the creator did not sell or get paid for is stealing, end of story. It's wrong and there is no amount of justification you can use to make it right.

[QUOTE="Nidget"]If you purchase a game, you have every right to sell it on after as it is your game. It isnt against any law (whereas buring off copies to sell or give to friends is). If you buy a used game, again, its within the law. You're money may not go to the developer/publisher, but they did get the money from the person who purchased it in the first case. rolo107

I want to know how those of you against used game sales feel about game rentals and borrowing from friends. If you're against any one of these, you must be against the others since they have the same effect on developers, right?

firedonut

[QUOTE="firedonut"]

I want to know how those of you against used game sales feel about game rentals and borrowing from friends. If you're against any one of these, you must be against the others since they have the same effect on developers, right?

Ravenlore_basic

ok so if i buy a second hand copy of a game for £25 its the same as getting a pirated copy from dodgy dave for free?

if you buy pirated games you are stealing. buying a used game from a real game store or ebay is not.

[QUOTE="mudman91878"]

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"] Just as you're ignoring that person's legal right to resell their property and transfer the license to someone else. That does not equate to one copy purchased, pirated, distributed to tens of thousands of people, and netting the developers a single $60 price tag (and that's assuming it wasn't just a leaked version that cost nothing). It's not a debate - pirating a game is stealing, selling a used copy if within a person's legal rights according to the license agreement games come with. Even if it was, you'd need a single game being passed on a ridiculous number of times used to somehow equal the damage done by one pirated copy, and no one else buying the game new at any point during its release.Burning-Sludge

STFU

NOBODY is ignoring their legal right to resell a game. Nobody is arguing the legality of used games....GET OFF THAT TOPIC.

It is a FACT that used games and pirating have the SAME EXACT EFFECT ON THE GAMING INDUSTRY, period. This FACT can not be argued.

If you feel that used games being legal justifies you being a cancer to the industry, fine, keep buying used games. Nobody can stop you because, like you've stated, it's legal.

Just know that buying 1 used game hurts the gaming industry just as much as downloading 1 pirated copy.

Also, just so you know, games are passed on a ridiculous # of times. Gamestops all over the country will have loads of used COD MW2 games in a month or two and every single one of them will get sold to someone and the developer will see nothing from that.

New copies of the game are no being created by the passing of a used game around.

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]Pirating = illegal and IMO morally wrong. Buying used = legal and perfectly fine to me morally. Ravenlore_basic

SO even if the ends are the same.... Developer not getting paid for something they created ITS OKAY because its not stolen???

[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="delta3074"]no it doesn't, the developer get the revenue from the original sale, which keeps them in business, the games store gets the money from subsequent sales, which keeps them in business, with piracy niether the dev or the games store get any money, which is far more damaging, besides one is THEFT, the other isn't, the only point here is that piracy is bad and it's illegal,trade in is not and keeps money and games circulatingBurning-Sludge

Do you want the publisher to see money every time someone tries to play a game?

I sell my games all the time, however I use the profits to purchase new games. I may buy a used game, but at least I'm paying for it & can go on knowing I'm not like these Pirates whom are too lazy to work so that they can buy new or used.

I buy pre-owned games, simply because i think games on consoles are over-priced as they are, so i feel no obligation to 'support the developer', mostly because you're not supporting the developer at all. The developers get paid by the publisher. Buying the game supports the publisher, most of which are giant corporations.Doctor-McNinja

Indeed. Basically this. I also generally buy used because gamestop allows you to return a used game for a refund within 7 days. So even if I'm only saving 5 dollars, I still buy used unless I am 100% sure I will like the game.