IGN ranks the Final Fantasy games

For everyone who thinks FF IV does not deserve its place, think about how the impact the game made when it first came out on the SNES. It introduced the ATB battle system, which moved away from the turn-based battle systems of other RPGs of the era. To give you an idea of the impact that the ATB made for RPGs, its was used until FF X and has even been revived in modified forms even in modern RPGs like FF XIII.

By modern standards, I will acknowledge that FF IV's storyline feels cliched but when it first came out, it took storytelling in an RPG to another level. Most of the other RPGs of its time either had a faceless party with no real backgrounds, or half-way attempts to have established characters with backgrounds that still never evolved over the course of the game. Look at Final Fantasy II which had established characters, but none of them really evolved over the course of the game. Some RPGs of the era come close, like Phantasy Star I and II, and yet, they still don't go as far as FF IV did.

With FF IV, you had characters that were written to evolve and change as the storyline moves foward. Is it perfect? No, but it does go a step futher than most other RPGS that could be found during the same era.

For anyone picking up FF IV after playing NES or even Genesis RPGs, the opening sequence would have blown away most people who picked up the game for the first time. The soundtrack was epic, and FF IV took advantage of the SNES' hardware. For an idea, go compare FF IV and Phantasy Star III to each other and tell me which seemed more impressive.

In many ways, FF IV suffers from the same issue that VII endures from newer fans. People playing it today don't understand what made it so special when it firstcame out. To understand, go compare FF IV to other RPGs that were out during the same time period of its initial release.

It deserves a spot in the top 3. FF IV was an important milestone in the evolution of JRPGS.

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

FF IX carries the essence of what makes FF so great, an extremely vibrant world with instantly likable characters (Vivi is still my favorite FF character), it was a very emotional game and the music was simply beautiful. It truely was the last FF game in my opinion... after that the series started going to the overdramatic and cheesy route *looks at FF X :evil:*

While I don't agree with the list in many areas, if FF IX and FF X would swap places, then I can call it a respectable list.

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

Nothin to say other than agree :).

[QUOTE="ScorpionBeeBee"][QUOTE="Juken7"]

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

I often wonder what that reason is. FFIV and Chrono Trigger were much better JRPGs from that gen, imo. Plus, FFIX hardly has great graphics by today's standards, yet it might be my favorite game period.

SPOILERS - I found FFVI started pretty strong until Kefka pushed his statues (which I always though was lame) and the World of Ruin started. Sure, it was much more open, but the storytelling really suffered imo. The last 10 hours had no story progressioin, essentially just turning into one large quest to fetch all the different characters.

I also remember at one point in the World of Ruin, Celes' random whim that a bird she saw near the airship would lead us somewhere was actually used to move the plot forward (let's go to that town because Celes thinks the bird travelling there is significant for some reason!). Another part that typifies the storytelling in the World of Ruin was how we randomly found Cyan writing letters to some heartbroken woman for no real reason. These parts just didn't make sense to me.

edit: I also found the esper system do be pretty boring compared to the other FF character development systems.

[QUOTE="superclocked"]6 is definitely the best in my book. I just wish that they wouldn't have butchered the dialog on the DS version. The SNES version (3) is much better....texasgoldrush

Wrong, the storytelling is stronger than ever. It just changed its pace and its focus. It went from chasing Kefka to recovering your team, and it is the World of Ruin that the games main theme...finding a meaning and the will to live even when terrible things happen...really shines. There is story progression, but not in the traditional way. It is the player that provides the progression. FFVI also used the world to tell its story, especially inb the WoR. Also, the most powerful story sequences occur in the World of Ruin. Actually, Celes thought that bird was important because she is rescued by it, so she thought the bird was leading her somewhere. It is actually the Esper Queztl, which ends up dying on the beach where it brought Celes hope with Locke's bandanna. You can easily miss these details if you don't pay attention. FFVI actually requires players to pay attention more than any other FF game. As for Cyan, he is writing those letters because he feels incredibly empty due to the death of his family. He tries to feel something by writing letters to a women whose boyfriend has died. Both couldn't move on. Its a powerful scene and one of the many reasons why FFVI is considered the best. Dealing with a loss of a loved one is one of its many themes, if not one of its major themes.texasgoldrush

Well I'm not wrong, it's an opinion. To me, finding everyone in the world of ruin felt like a large piece of filler before I fought Kefka.

It became too formulaic and predictable: It was finding the characters, what they were doing with their lives, and how to get them to join again. No more real twists, surprises, or story developments to keep me interested. Just a large fetch quest.

In other FF games, like IX and X, the story was constantly changing even in the last 20% of the game. The last boss wasn't just waiting for me to gather my team and fight him in a tower somewhere. And regardless of what you say about Celes' and Cyan's scenes, I don't think they were delivered well at all.

I pretty much agree with the list, except for 9 should be higher on the list and 10 lower imo, swap em around and I'll be happy :).

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Wrong, the storytelling is stronger than ever. It just changed its pace and its focus. It went from chasing Kefka to recovering your team, and it is the World of Ruin that the games main theme...finding a meaning and the will to live even when terrible things happen...really shines. There is story progression, but not in the traditional way. It is the player that provides the progression. FFVI also used the world to tell its story, especially inb the WoR. Also, the most powerful story sequences occur in the World of Ruin. Actually, Celes thought that bird was important because she is rescued by it, so she thought the bird was leading her somewhere. It is actually the Esper Queztl, which ends up dying on the beach where it brought Celes hope with Locke's bandanna. You can easily miss these details if you don't pay attention. FFVI actually requires players to pay attention more than any other FF game. As for Cyan, he is writing those letters because he feels incredibly empty due to the death of his family. He tries to feel something by writing letters to a women whose boyfriend has died. Both couldn't move on. Its a powerful scene and one of the many reasons why FFVI is considered the best. Dealing with a loss of a loved one is one of its many themes, if not one of its major themes.Juken7

Well I'm not wrong, it's an opinion. To me, finding everyone in the world of ruin felt like a large piece of filler before I fought Kefka.

It became too formulaic and predictable: It was finding the characters, what they were doing with their lives, and how to get them to join again. No more real twists, surprises, or story developments to keep me interested. Just a large fetch quest.

In other FF games, like IX and X, the story was constantly changing even in the last 20% of the game. The last boss wasn't just waiting for me to gather my team and fight him in a tower somewhere. And regardless of what you say about Celes' and Cyan's scenes, I don't think they were delivered well at all.

They got it right for the most part.

FF6 is by far the best Final Fantasy and more then that, Its one of the greatest games ever made.

that list is total fail. i would take out the one ff with all the girls in it. and add ff legends 2 the one with the helmet on the cover for the 8 bit black and whitegameboy.

they got number 1 correct, that is all i care about.... well not quite i am saddened by the lack of FFTsurrealnumber5

that list is total fail. i would take out the one ff with all the girls in it. and add ff legends 2 the one with the helmet on the cover for the 8 bit black and whitegameboy.

monson21502

You mean FF X-2? The one that wasn't on the list in the first place???

[QUOTE="monson21502"]

that list is total fail. i would take out the one ff with all the girls in it. and add ff legends 2 the one with the helmet on the cover for the 8 bit black and whitegameboy.

You mean FF X-2? The one that wasn't on the list in the first place???

[QUOTE="svetzenlether"]

[QUOTE="monson21502"]

that list is total fail. i would take out the one ff with all the girls in it. and add ff legends 2 the one with the helmet on the cover for the 8 bit black and whitegameboy.

monson21502

You mean FF X-2? The one that wasn't on the list in the first place???

Yeah, it wasn't on the list.:|

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]they got number 1 correct, that is all i care about.... well not quite i am saddened by the lack of FFTtexasgoldrush

Its not filler, it closes the storylines that were started in the World of Balance, such as the Locke/Rachel story, Cyan's story, and showing Terra what her humanity was. There is twists, like the Nightmare sequence, or the fact that Strago joined Kefka's cult. It is just not linear after getting the airship. In fact, they listed the WoR as one of the reasons FFVI took the #1 spot.texasgoldrush

It felt like filler to me because I saw where the game was heading and exactly what I was going to have to do before I got there.

And I forgot Strago joining Kefka's cult! Thanks for reminding me, that has to be the strangest of all. Not only was he a pretty tacked on character to begin with, but as I was exploring the World of Ruin I randomly see him outside of a tower with a bunch of generic cultists. I had not clue wtf he was doing.

And what about Kefka ruining the world by pushing some statues? Do you think that was good for the story too? I thought it was one of the lamest displays of "power" from any FF bad guy.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]they got number 1 correct, that is all i care about.... well not quite i am saddened by the lack of FFTsurrealnumber5

I might even put FFT at the very top (it would have to be the War of the Lions version with a good translation).

It had a very deep story, great combat, and an amazing character development system. One of the most underrated games of all time imo.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] FFT was not eligible, only numbered games. FFT would be #2 or #3 otherwise.Juken7

I might even put FF at the very top (it would have to be the War of the Lions version with a good translation).

It had a very deep story, great combat, and an amazing character development system. One of the most underrated games of all time imo.

I don't have too many Final Fantasy games but I'm glad that they ranked FFIV at 3rd, it's a brilliant game.

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"] thats where i would put it, even a close contender to ff3/6surrealnumber5

I might even put FF at the very top (it would have to be the War of the Lions version with a good translation).

It had a very deep story, great combat, and an amazing character development system. One of the most underrated games of all time imo.

Yea I loved the first on PS1, but the translation started off pretty bad and just got worse and worse. It didn't help that I was in grade 4 at the time, so I pretty much got completely lost and just focused on making a cool team.

These threads always go down the same road.

"FF VIII SUCKS!"

"FF XII SUCKS!"

"FF VII RULES!"

"NUH-UH! FF X RULES!"

Texasgoldrush: "Sad to say.....

*A few long posts later*

In conclusion, FF VI is the reason why I can go to bed stress free every night."

:lol:

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

Juken7

Hate to burst your bubble, but 2D, 16 bit games are just as pleasing to look at and play now just as they were in the mid 90s. Games like Chrono Trigger and FF VI are games that seem immune to aging.

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

MadVybz

Hate to burst your bubble, but 2D, 16 bit games are just as pleasing to look at and play now just as they were in the mid 90s. Games like Chrono Trigger and FF VI are games that seem immune to aging.

I never said anything about visuals. I actually agree that good 2d never ages.

I'm mostly talking about pacing, characters, and storytelling.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Its not filler, it closes the storylines that were started in the World of Balance, such as the Locke/Rachel story, Cyan's story, and showing Terra what her humanity was. There is twists, like the Nightmare sequence, or the fact that Strago joined Kefka's cult. It is just not linear after getting the airship. In fact, they listed the WoR as one of the reasons FFVI took the #1 spot.Juken7

It felt like filler to me because I saw where the game was heading and exactly what I was going to have to do before I got there.

And I forgot Strago joining Kefka's cult! Thanks for reminding me, that has to be the strangest of all. Not only was he a pretty tacked on character to begin with, but as I was exploring the World of Ruin I randomly see him outside of a tower with a bunch of generic cultists. I had not clue wtf he was doing.

And what about Kefka ruining the world by pushing some statues? Do you think that was good for the story too? I thought it was one of the lamest displays of "power" from any FF bad guy.

[QUOTE="MadVybz"]

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

Highly disagree with both IX and VI. IX had so much charm and heart, it's the most underated imo.

On the other hand, VI may have been good at the time but its aged terribly. I played it last summer and couldn't see why I held it in such high regard.

Hate to burst your bubble, but 2D, 16 bit games are just as pleasing to look at and play now just as they were in the mid 90s. Games like Chrono Trigger and FF VI are games that seem immune to aging.

I never said anything about visuals. I actually agree that good 2d never ages.

I'm mostly talking about pacing, characters, and storytelling.

You missed the point. Strago gave up all hope because he thought the most precious thing to him, his "granddaughter" Relm, was dead and gone. Thats why you can only recruit him if you have Relm. If you don't pay attention, you would think he was there for no good reason. Strago is one of the more minor characters, but he is there to support Relm, who is more major in the story. Its obvious you did not pay attention. The WoR requires you to pick up on little details. Again, you missed the point to Kefka. He did not move the statues to "show is power" but to complete his objective of draining them of energy and remaking the world into his twisted image. And Shadow inadvertantly helped them as well. Kefka's true displays of power was his attacks with The Light of Judgement.texasgoldrush

Actually, I did pay attention. I just found all of the characters exhibited extremely bizarre behavior in the WoR. I played a year and a half ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy on some of the details.

Even if he was distraught over Relm, it was extremely weird seing him just wandering around with a bunch of cultists. The Strago, as I thought I knew him, would never in a million years join a cult of Kefka. Why would he join when Kefka is the very reason he lost Relm? It felt like the writers were almost changing his personality on the fly. It was too difficult to connect with him.

Same with noble Cyan holed up in a cave somewhere writing love letters to some woman. He lost Elaine and Owaine much earlier in the game. Why is he all of a sudden a helpless shut in in a cave?

I remember Edgar completely changed too. Didn't he become a thief or something, denying he was Edgar when confronted when it was CLEARLY him?

Why were all the characters I thought I knew so helpless? If the theme was overcoming loss and facing adversity, they all did a terrible job of it. They just gave up and did something random until Celes came by to save them (whether by unexplained esper bird or otherwise).

And my very BIGGEST problem with the story is the stupid statues Kefka pushes. Could their be a more strange and underwhelming way for a villain to destroy the world? And his big displays of power with the light of judgement occured AFTER he pushed the statues - if he could do that from the beginning he wouldn't have needed them.

In which in Gamesradars list of the top 15 game stories of all time, FFVI is the only JRPG to make the list.texasgoldrush

I just found the quote of Celes wanting to follow the bird. Here's the dialogue from the game:

(A white bird flies by.)

Celes: "Hey! A bird!

Setzer, follow that bird!"

Setzer: "But why?"

Celes: "I... don't know... Something inside just tells me it's important..."

Please explain to me where I was suppose to make the connection it was an esper.

I don't have too many Final Fantasy games but I'm glad that they ranked FFIV at 3rd, it's a brilliant game.

fabz_95

It's the most straight forward lead you by the hand FF to date. Nothing says brilliant the most bare bones development system in any FF. :roll:

[QUOTE="fabz_95"]

I don't have too many Final Fantasy games but I'm glad that they ranked FFIV at 3rd, it's a brilliant game.

-RPGamer-

It's the most straight forward lead you by the hand FF to date. Nothing says brilliant the most bare bones development system in any FF. :roll:

Are you kidding me? Not only has he not played many FF games, its his opinion. Lay off.

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

[QUOTE="fabz_95"]

I don't have too many Final Fantasy games but I'm glad that they ranked FFIV at 3rd, it's a brilliant game.

Shirokishi_

It's the most straight forward lead you by the hand FF to date. Nothing says brilliant the most bare bones development system in any FF. :roll:

Are you kidding me? Not only has he not played many FF games, its his opinion. Lay off.

And I'm just saying my opinion as well, so "lay off". :|

[QUOTE="Shirokishi_"]

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

It's the most straight forward lead you by the hand FF to date. Nothing says brilliant the most bare bones development system in any FF. :roll:

-RPGamer-

Are you kidding me? Not only has he not played many FF games, its his opinion. Lay off.

And I'm just saying my opinion as well, so "lay off". :|

And what a nice opinion it was >.>

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] In which in Gamesradars list of the top 15 game stories of all time, FFVI is the only JRPG to make the list.Juken7

I just found the quote of Celes wanting to follow the bird. Here's the dialogue from the game:

(A white bird flies by.)

Celes: "Hey! A bird!

Setzer, follow that bird!"

Setzer: "But why?"

Celes: "I... don't know... Something inside just tells me it's important..."

Please explain to me where I was suppose to make the connection it was an esper.

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] In which in Gamesradars list of the top 15 game stories of all time, FFVI is the only JRPG to make the list.texasgoldrush

I just found the quote of Celes wanting to follow the bird. Here's the dialogue from the game:

(A white bird flies by.)

Celes: "Hey! A bird!

Setzer, follow that bird!"

Setzer: "But why?"

Celes: "I... don't know... Something inside just tells me it's important..."

Please explain to me where I was suppose to make the connection it was an esper.

No, just no ...

It's like the story of the dove carrying the olive branch. It doesn't mean that the dove is particularly special, it's just a human archetype. Birds are not particularly important to Celes. The bird that celes gains the bandana from is not an esper. You're delving into what isn't there.

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] In which in Gamesradars list of the top 15 game stories of all time, FFVI is the only JRPG to make the list.texasgoldrush

I just found the quote of Celes wanting to follow the bird. Here's the dialogue from the game:

(A white bird flies by.)

Celes: "Hey! A bird!

Setzer, follow that bird!"

Setzer: "But why?"

Celes: "I... don't know... Something inside just tells me it's important..."

Please explain to me where I was suppose to make the connection it was an esper.

However you try to justify it, I found it silly.

Obviously neither of us are going to change our opinion anyways, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Juken7"]

I just found the quote of Celes wanting to follow the bird. Here's the dialogue from the game:

(A white bird flies by.)

Celes: "Hey! A bird!

Setzer, follow that bird!"

Setzer: "But why?"

Celes: "I... don't know... Something inside just tells me it's important..."

Please explain to me where I was suppose to make the connection it was an esper.

Juken7

However you try to justify it, I found it silly.

Obviously neither of us are going to change our opinion anyways, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

He's trying to justify it by inventing story that doesn't exist.

You're talking to the person who doesn't think that FFVI could be improved in any way and the person who thinks that no JRPGs after FFVI had good stories.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] You missed the point. Strago gave up all hope because he thought the most precious thing to him, his "granddaughter" Relm, was dead and gone. Thats why you can only recruit him if you have Relm. If you don't pay attention, you would think he was there for no good reason. Strago is one of the more minor characters, but he is there to support Relm, who is more major in the story. Its obvious you did not pay attention. The WoR requires you to pick up on little details. Again, you missed the point to Kefka. He did not move the statues to "show is power" but to complete his objective of draining them of energy and remaking the world into his twisted image. And Shadow inadvertantly helped them as well. Kefka's true displays of power was his attacks with The Light of Judgement.Juken7

Actually, I did pay attention. I just found all of the characters exhibited extremely bizarre behavior in the WoR. I played a year and a half ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy on some of the details.

Even if he was distraught over Relm, it was extremely weird seing him just wandering around with a bunch of cultists. The Strago, as I thought I knew him, would never in a million years join a cult of Kefka. Why would he join when Kefka is the very reason he lost Relm? It felt like the writers were almost changing his personality on the fly. It was too difficult to connect with him.

Same with noble Cyan holed up in a cave somewhere writing love letters to some woman. He lost Elaine and Owaine much earlier in the game. Why is he all of a sudden a helpless shut in in a cave?

I remember Edgar completely changed too. Didn't he become a thief or something, denying he was Edgar when confronted when it was CLEARLY him?

Why were all the characters I thought I knew so helpless? If the theme was overcoming loss and facing adversity, they all did a terrible job of it. They just gave up and did something random until Celes came by to save them (whether by unexplained esper bird or otherwise).

And my very BIGGEST problem with the story is the stupid statues Kefka pushes. Could their be a more strange and underwhelming way for a villain to destroy the world? And his big displays of power with the light of judgement occured AFTER he pushed the statues - if he could do that from the beginning he wouldn't have needed them.

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

Because the magicite is found on the beach where Celes was washed up after her suicide attempt. A normal bird would not have given celes Locke's bandanna in the manner it did. Its not the factt hat is an Esper that made birds important to her, its the fact that she was helped by a bird.texasgoldrush

However you try to justify it, I found it silly.

Obviously neither of us are going to change our opinion anyways, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

He's trying to justify it by inventing story that doesn't exist.

You're talking to the person who doesn't think that FFVI could be improved in any way and the person who thinks that no JRPGs after FFVI had good stories.

Wow! FFVI is definitely the best in the series, whoever doesn't agree hasn't played them all. And it also has the best villain of them all... YES! I'M SAYING KEFKA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SEPHIROTH!

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

However you try to justify it, I found it silly.

Obviously neither of us are going to change our opinion anyways, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

texasgoldrush

He's trying to justify it by inventing story that doesn't exist.

You're talking to the person who doesn't think that FFVI could be improved in any way and the person who thinks that no JRPGs after FFVI had good stories.

They placed the bird esper there to reward the player for finding and returning to the area Celes started out at. It is possible that they chose a bird esper for the location because birds had been shown gathering there, but it's just speculation and not enough to justify Celes having developed some sort of special comradary with birds that allows her to mentally link with them to discover her friends.

Espers were placed in a lot of places. Does golem being sold at the auction house hold any special significance? No, it's just there for the purpose of having a rare, special item that can be contained via the auction house.

He's trying to justify it by inventing story that doesn't exist.

You're talking to the person who doesn't think that FFVI could be improved in any way and the person who thinks that no JRPGs after FFVI had good stories.

hakanakumono

That's what I figured, but it's been so long since I played it I wasn't sure.

I must say its refreshing to have someone on my side for once in this argument lol. Every time I say the slightest thing negative about FFVI I have a swarm of fanboys telling me how wrong I am and how it has the best JRPG story ever...

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

He's trying to justify it by inventing story that doesn't exist.

You're talking to the person who doesn't think that FFVI could be improved in any way and the person who thinks that no JRPGs after FFVI had good stories.

Juken7

That's what I figured, but it's been so long since I played it I wasn't sure.

I must say its refreshing to have someone on my side for once in this argument lol. Every time I say the slightest thing negative about FFVI I have a swarm of fanboys telling me how wrong I am and how it has the best JRPG story ever...

Pretty much. I've had a lot of arguments with texasgoldrush. Half of them include him going on about how "FFVI does need depth," it's "execution trumps depth," and citing a lack of criticism for FFVI (and FFIV) as a reason for why they are better.

LOL @ no FF Tactics being on there. Oh well opinions will always be opinions.

Like I told you earlier, Cyan's loss made him feel so empty, he couldn't let go. What he did was not logical, his actions were based on emotions. It was pretty convincing.texasgoldrush

All I'm saying is it was not convincing to me.

The statues being moved threw the world out of balance due to their extreme magical power. Not only did Kefka move them, but he drained them of all their energy becoming a god.

texasgoldrush

I don't just think Kefka pushing the statues was a joke, I think the whole idea of magical statues on a floating island keeping the world in balance was weak. It felt like nonsense to me. It's just too hard to digest, especially since it happens rather suddenly at a later point in the World of Balance.

And you don't really know, instead of attempting to kill himself when losing somebody precious (or thought to), Strago just gave in.

texasgoldrush

Well what I do know is that when I was playing through with my brother last year, we just saw Strago in the middle of a random lineup of generic Kefka followers. We kind of had a wtf moment and started laughing.

Strago joining a Kefka cult because he is heartbroken over the loss of Relm - which Kefka is responsible for - is ridiculous. This is not good storytelling imo...