is mac a pc?

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] but still, what logical defense is there for the incredibly overpriced mac hardware?

Vaasman

There are plenty of defenses but I'll list a few:

Stable OS based on Unix How is OSX any more stable than Windows 7? It crashes less but freezes more from my experiences with it.

Simpler yet more powerful UI Depends on how you use the PC, but there's really nothing simpler about the UI of a MAC if you just use it for internet or games.

Higher resale value Why are you buying a PC for it's resale value? I buy PC's to last me a decade or more, pending occasional upgrades.

Steam This isn't a defense when other PC's have steam, and in fact have the full support of steam, while MAC only supports a small portion of steam games.

Less security risk With a much smaller market share there is less incentive to create malicious content, but even if it equaled Window's systems, anyone with half a brain can properly install security software, especially when windows 7 tells you to once you install it. This also depends how you use the PC. Visiting unsafe websites and clicking on every contest you win will screw you no matter what OS you use.

Works on any network platform, Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux... Honestly I'm not sure about Windows' network support so I'll just give you this one.

Performance Uh, no. For less money I can get better hardware with better performance than a MAC. And I don't have to buy a whole new PC when I want better performance, I can just upgrade separate components.

I'll go into detail of each if you want.

Into detail: hes sorry that he was wrong

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

Advid-Gamer

If a Mac isn't a personal computer, what is it then? An overglorified iPod? (sarcasm) And the Mac has a game library? Consisting of what? They should be counted because they're a legitimate system that dwarf the conoles in sales. Not to mention PCs have backwards compatibility.

A bit of a hostile tone and I apologize for that, but please, don't be so obtuse.

Yeah, they are. Apple has just been very successful at brainwashing people to think otherwise.

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

Advid-Gamer

What are it's unfair advantages?

Also, in every argument i've seen it's been consoles (as a whole) vs. PC. Which is the way you want it, and funnily enough the way it actually is.

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

lundy86_4

What are it's unfair advantages?

Also, in every argument i've seen it's been consoles (as a whole) vs. PC. Which is the way you want it, and funnily enough the way it actually is.

PC wins in sale and higher rated exclusives (even when all are not review) and that is comparing it to all 3 consoles.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

RyviusRan

What are it's unfair advantages?

Also, in every argument i've seen it's been consoles (as a whole) vs. PC. Which is the way you want it, and funnily enough the way it actually is.

PC wins in sale and higher rated exclusives (even when all are not review) and that is comparing it to all 3 consoles.

yep

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="RyviusRan"]

I have all three and none have any surpassing quality.

I can install windows 7 on a pentium 3 256mb ram computer and it can run smoothly.

Booting time is the same for each too with minimal differences of 1 or 2 seconds.

My Windows 7 OS is protected very well and I never experience any difficulties with it at all.

RyviusRan

"I can install windows 7 on a pentium 3 256mb ram computer and it can run smoothly."

At what costs? You'd have to disable quite a lot of features unless you're using starter edition. And even then It will be sluggish.

Today's netbooks have 1 GB of ram and a 1.3-1.6 Ghz atom processor and run Windows Ultimate with Aero off like poo.

"Booting time is the same for each too with minimal differences of 1 or 2 seconds."

This may be true but it depends on what's running on what. I had a macbook pro early 2008 boot fatser than my win 7 PC. Until I put in 4 drives and made a raid 10.

"My Windows 7 OS is protected very well and I never experience any difficulties with it at all."

You must be running the 64 bit version then. Since rootkits and certain viruses aren't written to run on 64 bit platforms it makes it more secure. Can't say the same for those running windows 7 32 bit.

Sure I have to configure Windows 7 to run smooth on a pentium 3 and 256mb of ram but it runs smooth.

I have windows 7 ultimate 32 bit on my 2005 laptop.

intel celeron 420m 1.6ghz

1 gig ddr2 667mhz ram

intel gma 950

And it runs smooth as butter.

I don;t get viruses on it at all and that is the 32bit version.

I also play my last gen games on it perfectly fine.

PC wins in sale and higher rated exclusives (even when all are not review) and that is comparing it to all 3 consoles.

RyviusRan

Those are unfair advantages? They seem pretty fair to me.

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

Sheppard212

If a Mac isn't a personal computer, what is it then? An overglorified iPod? (sarcasm) And the Mac has a game library? Consisting of what? They should be counted because they're a legitimate system that dwarf the conoles in sales. Not to mention PCs have backwards compatibility.

A bit of a hostile tone and I apologize for that, but please, don't be so obtuse.

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] but still, what logical defense is there for the incredibly overpriced mac hardware?

Vaasman

There are plenty of defenses but I'll list a few:

Stable OS based on Unix How is OSX any more stable than Windows 7? It crashes less but freezes more from my experiences with it.

Simpler yet more powerful UI Depends on how you use the PC, but there's really nothing simpler about the UI of a MAC if you just use it for internet or games.

Higher resale value Why are you buying a PC for it's resale value? I buy PC's to last me a decade or more, pending occasional upgrades.

Steam This isn't a defense when other PC's have steam, and in fact have the full support of steam, while MAC only supports a small portion of steam games.

Less security risk With a much smaller market share there is less incentive to create malicious content, but even if it equaled Window's systems, anyone with half a brain can properly install security software, especially when windows 7 tells you to once you install it. This also depends how you use the PC. Visiting unsafe websites and clicking on every contest you win will screw you no matter what OS you use.

Works on any network platform, Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux... Honestly I'm not sure about Windows' network support so I'll just give you this one.

Performance Uh, no. For less money I can get better hardware with better performance than a MAC. And I don't have to buy a whole new PC when I want better performance, I can just upgrade separate components.

I'll go into detail of each if you want.

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

Into detail: hes sorry that he was wrong

edinsftw

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

lundy86_4

What are it's unfair advantages?

Also, in every argument i've seen it's been consoles (as a whole) vs. PC. Which is the way you want it, and funnily enough the way it actually is.

I think they are different, just like how consoles are different, much like you cant take ANY Mac computer and put windows on it. just like how you cant get ANY xbox360 to play any xbox game on it.

newer Macs are closer to the PC, mostly due to the fact Apple wants PC users. much like how PS3 isnt that much different from 360 unlike xbox vs ps2.

but who cares if SC2 is exclusive, its not like SC1 was

unfair as in the pc gamers here butt into all the graphic threads, when My GPU cost more then my ps3 by itself when I got it. The unfair advantage of not being held down by hardware but running around in every thread gloating how superior the Pc is. No *** its going to be better, the argument as a whole is stupid and I dont see how the Pc belongs in most of the discussions. Yes this is "system" wars but what is the point? Advid-Gamer

So the PC, as a system, has unfair advantages? You stated it twice, regarding two different parties (i.e. Hermits and the system). So it should be thrown out because it's more powerful? Does that make the games better? Worse? Or exactly the same for the most part? It has it's advantages and disadvantages, exactly as consoles do, and thus this is the perfect place for it.

It's a gaming system, and this is Sytem Wars. Unless you want to call it "System Wars: For the systems that are relatively close in power"... Oh, but then we can't include the Wii... Damn!

I think they are different, just like how consoles are different, much like you cant take ANY Mac computer and put windows on it. just like how you cant get ANY xbox360 to play any xbox game on it.

newer Macs are closer to the PC, mostly due to the fact Apple wants PC users. much like how PS3 isnt that much different from 360 unlike xbox vs ps2.

but who cares if SC2 is exclusive, its not like SC1 was

gamer-adam1

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]unfair as in the pc gamers here butt into all the graphic threads, when My GPU cost more then my ps3 by itself when I got it. The unfair advantage of not being held down by hardware but running around in every thread gloating how superior the Pc is. No *** its going to be better, the argument as a whole is stupid and I dont see how the Pc belongs in most of the discussions. Yes this is "system" wars but what is the point? lundy86_4

So the PC, as a system, has unfair advantages? You stated it twice, regarding two different parties (i.e. Hermits and the system). So it should be thrown out because it's more powerful? Does that make the games better? Worse? Or exactly the same for the most part? It has it's advantages and disadvantages, exactly as consoles do, and thus this is the perfect place for it.

It's a gaming system, and this is Sytem Wars. Unless you want to call it "System Wars: For the systems that are relatively close in power"... Oh, but then we can't include the Wii... Damn!

Yea it does, got a problem with that? The PC owns 5 year old tech.............and what is the point anymore. This argument was better when the 360 was released and they were closer now there really is no point other then pc gamers love feeling superior. I have a good rig and dont see the point in comparing Pc and consoles. Then again I dont need my ego stroked.Advid-Gamer

Actually, yes I do. They're not really unfair, as they're based around the very nature of the system -- that of it being open. However, with the more powerful hardware comes a number of problems.First would be cost, and also ease of upgrading. Thus to different people this offsets whether the system is necessary for them, much like with the consoles. It can't and doesn't win every argument, so we should throw it out for being superior in some people's eyes? If you want to throw it out based on power, why not get rid of the Wii, considering it's hovering at the other extreme of the scale.

I'm a PC gamer and don't care if a game is superior, so try not to generalize all PC gamers, ok? It comes off as arrogant. There are a number of good reasons to compare them, in terms of functionality, games released, quality of games released (beyond the usual graphics talks), and they also share a number of multiplats with the 360... Making it pretty relevant in System Wars.

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] Macs are expensive but not overpriced. Especially not "incredibly" overpriced.

There are plenty of defenses but I'll list a few:

Stable OS based on Unix How is OSX any more stable than Windows 7? It crashes less but freezes more from my experiences with it.

Simpler yet more powerful UI Depends on how you use the PC, but there's really nothing simpler about the UI of a MAC if you just use it for internet or games.

Higher resale value Why are you buying a PC for it's resale value? I buy PC's to last me a decade or more, pending occasional upgrades.

Steam This isn't a defense when other PC's have steam, and in fact have the full support of steam, while MAC only supports a small portion of steam games.

Less security risk With a much smaller market share there is less incentive to create malicious content, but even if it equaled Window's systems, anyone with half a brain can properly install security software, especially when windows 7 tells you to once you install it. This also depends how you use the PC. Visiting unsafe websites and clicking on every contest you win will screw you no matter what OS you use.

Works on any network platform, Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux... Honestly I'm not sure about Windows' network support so I'll just give you this one.

Performance Uh, no. For less money I can get better hardware with better performance than a MAC. And I don't have to buy a whole new PC when I want better performance, I can just upgrade separate components.

I'll go into detail of each if you want.

Zero_epyon

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

3) Oh so because you sold your Mac back, that means all people can, right? No. And as long as we're on the subject of buying and selling, you can't buy a custom Mac at all. You have to buy their defaults. You know what my custom PC looks like? It's blue with a clear case so you can see the blue led's and blue cooling and blue fans. I built it myself and had lots of fun. And that's with no effort at all. you say you're a PC enthusiast, but all you do is buy a bunch of Macs, with no concern for the fact that there are much cheaper versions of the same hardware that will work just as well.

4) lol wut? Steam support is negligible when Mac barely supports more than a few valve games, and you are missing out on all the PC's back catalog of non-Mac games. Mac still isn't even remotely viable as a pure gaming machine.

5) Ugh. I can almost guarantee you that 99% of all computer infections are human error. If you aren't a moron online it shouldn't even be an issue. And there are plenty of free anti-virus services that work just fine, with no cost and constant updates. I.E. I use AVG which will get me lynched by hardcore hardware kids, but it's free and it works.

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Please do go into detail.

Vaasman

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

3) Oh so because you sold your Mac back, that means all people can, right? No. And as long as we're on the subject of buying and selling, you can't buy a custom Mac at all. You have to buy their defaults. You know what my custom PC looks like? It's blue with a clear case so you can see the blue led's and blue cooling and blue fans. I built it myself and had lots of fun. And that's with no effort at all. you say you're a PC enthusiast, but all you do is buy a bunch of Macs, with no concern for the fact that there are much cheaper versions of the same hardware that will work just as well.

4) lol wut? Steam support is negligible when Mac barely supports more than a few valve games, and you are missing out on all the PC's back catalog of non-Mac games. Mac still isn't even remotely viable as a pure gaming machine.

5) Ugh. I can almost guarantee you that 99% of all computer infections are human error. If you aren't a moron online it shouldn't even be an issue. And there are plenty of free anti-virus services that work just fine, with no cost and constant updates. I.E. I use AVG which will get me lynched by hardcore hardware kids, but it's free and it works.

1) & 2) Checking it out but I have worked on Macs and Windows for 6 years now. From desktops to servers. So from my point of view personally and professionally, Macs are better in the areas I've described. Except for steam which isn't as robust as it is on windows.

3)You asked me why I am buying a PC for resale value. I gave you an answer. Reread my post. It's riddled with the "I". Second, I have only owned 2 macs and they have been macbooks. I've worked on others professionally, iMacs, Mac minis, Mac Pros and Xserves mixed in windows environments. Not once have I said that I bought a bunch of Macs, especially since I mentioned that I own a gaming PC. I too have a clear case with a blue orb II on my core i7 920 processor. I buy parts and sell them as a whole to make up for the costs of my new rig. This happens every year or so. I'm actually do for a refresher soon. I thought a SSD would hold me but it only made me want to upgrade sooner.

4) I didn't say steam was robust on Macs but it is there and it will improve.

5) I wouldn't say 99% but I agree most of it is human error or negligence. However, viruses don't just come from visiting questionable websites. Attacks on your computer aren't always viruses either. Sometimes your PC gets broken into and not many AV programs alone can stop that. AVG is great but it's still no guarantee.

I would say no , they are not. People say it is just a pc on a different os . isnt that what a console is?

Its not the same platfrom it has its own hardware and software. macs were the first home computers .

dontshackzmii

Macs Are PCs!!

"I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC." I've heard these phrases countless times on TV and the Web. Heck, the ad is even running on the PC Mag Web site right now.

This brilliant ad campaign from Apple, which manages to make PC users look like uptight boobs, is entertaining and impressively effective. It also helps foster one of the greatest misconceptions of our still relatively young digital age: that Windows-based computers are PCs while Macs are, well, something else. Of course, that's wrong—dead wrong.

If the ad were accurate, John Hodgman (the actor who plays the "PC") would say, "I'm a PC," and Justin Long (the actor who plays the "Mac") would say, "And I'm a PC, too." Why? Because a Macintosh is a PC!

Pardon my frustration, but this common misconception has had a long and lasting impact on the venerable brand you're patronizing right now. Here's a typical conversation I have on an alarmingly frequent basis.

A few weeks ago, I attended my brother-in-law's wedding in Virginia. He started teasing me, saying that even though I was the editor of PC Magazine he, and his extended family, still loved me. He felt the need to poke fun because his is a "Mac family." (In fact, while I was there, his wife was using iChat on her 15-inch MacBook to talk to friends in Europe.) My brother-in-law couldn't understand why anyone would use a PC. In any case, this ribbing continued throughout my visit, with his constantly making snide comments about how it was "okay that I was at the wedding even though…." Then he'd trail off as if he were stating a widely known fact: "Lance is a PC guy; he doesn't care about the Mac."

Finally, after a few days of this, I couldn't stand it anymore, and I cut him off mid-jibe with: "Not for nothing, but PC Magazine has been covering the Mac since 1984. We regularly test Apple products, and many of them win our Editors' Choice award." I was talking fast, and while my brother-in-law seemed ready to offer some apology or joking rejoinder, I plowed ahead with what I thought was a zinger, "And by the way, the PC in PC Magazine stands for "personal computer," and the Mac is a personal computer." My brother-in-law laughed, but he did look a bit startled by my intensity.

I'm sure I overreacted, but I think he ended up serving as a proxy for all the Macheads who somehow manage to forget that they're simply using a computer and not some other-worldly device that was born instead of built.

Back in 1984, PC Magazine, as well as the industry in general, typically referred to PCs as IBM PCs. Then Apple—after the collapse of the Apple III program and the dismal reception of the "Lisa"—launched its new system, the "Macintosh." Virtually all IBM PCs (and non–IBM PCs, which we referred to as "clones") ran the text-based MS-DOS operating system. The Mac was the first to have a graphical interface, making it even more unique at the time. Even so, it was still just a PC, with a keyboard, an integrated display, a floppy disk drive, a CPU, a hard drive, memory, and a file-system structure. The inclusion of a mouse made it special, too, but IBM PCs soon had mice of their own.

I'm not saying that Macs are not wonderful products. We almost always love them when we test them here at PC Magazine Labs. Apple is, without a doubt, the most consistent company in computerdom. But Steve Jobs is not God, and his products are not grown on trees and picked by loving workers who let them ripen on cotton sheets by the window sill. If you need further evidence that Macs are not vastly different from Windows-based PCs, remember that all Macs now use Intel CPUs─the same CPUs you find in Windows PCs. With Boot Camp, Macs can even run Windows. I wonder if the folks who do this refer to their Macs as PCs.

Enough already. Put simply, we all use computers that run different operating systems. If the Apple ad campaign were really correct, Long would say, "I'm a Mac," and Hodgman would say, "And I'm a Windows." Oh, wait, that sounds odd. How about this: Long says, "I'm a Mac PC," and Hodgman says, "And I'm a Windows PC"? Of course, the ads would then be far less effective, because consumers might realize that the differences Apple is trying to tout aren't quite as huge as Apple would like you to believe.

I'm under no illusions that Apple will change, or even drop, the most effective ad campaign technology has ever seen. I also know that people will forever assume that PCMag.com and PC Magazine are Windows-only destinations. They'd be wrong. But who am I to argue with good old-fashioned American marketing?

By: Lance Ulanoff

PCMAG.com

The Macintosh Apple II computer WAS the first personal computer.Brownesque

its a shame pc gaming is on windows. It is by far the wrost os on the market. yes 7 is better then vista but that's not saying much.

dontshackzmii

I don't really get the OS wars, they made sense 10-15 years ago, but currently for normal everyday use there's no real noticable difference between OSes, only fanboys wage wars over them, normal people couldn't care less what OS they use, they're all pretty much the same (at least OSX and Windows, some Linux distros are really hostile to non-geeks)

[QUOTE="edinsftw"]Into detail: hes sorry that he was wrong

Zero_epyon

Well the fact of the matter is you cant argue with fanboys of anything, they dont care about logic. So i thought...why not tell him what he wants to hear, cuz its not coming from a fanboy.

Irrefutable facts:(when i say pc i mean windows)

1.PC is cheaper, unless its alienware.

2.PC can do anything a mac can

3.PC has the latest and best hardware available

4.PC can do more than the mac os(yes mac can bootcamp, but then its using windows anyway, that in itself is saying macs are obsolete)

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

Advid-Gamer

Okay, genius.

Point out the games that hermits brag about from the Mac platform.

Another one that tries to be tech savvy and crushed his own argument with a total void of knowledge :roll:

Mac is a pc, but is just as different as the 360/ps3. I have a gaming rig and play on that more then my consoles these days, but I hate the elitest attitude i see in SW from the hermits. The Pc wins anyway, so what, all I was saying is if the mac and pc are the same catagory then the Pc when being compared in SW should go against the consoles as a whole not individually, even if the pc still wins, that wasnt my point.Advid-Gamer

What the **** are you on about?

Have you ever seen a thread where PC only gets pitted against one console instead of all 3?

The hypocrisy meter in this thread is going sky high :?

[QUOTE="Sheppard212"]

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

Advid-Gamer

If a Mac isn't a personal computer, what is it then? An overglorified iPod? (sarcasm) And the Mac has a game library? Consisting of what? They should be counted because they're a legitimate system that dwarf the conoles in sales. Not to mention PCs have backwards compatibility.

A bit of a hostile tone and I apologize for that, but please, don't be so obtuse.

Explain this. Can you legally install Ps3 OS into 360 and play legally PS3 games on 360 or vice versa? NO

Can you legally install Windows7 on MAC and play all those nice Windows games on a MAC? YES

Can you legally install MACOS on an HP that came with windows and dual boot into either windows for your gaming needs or MAC for the rest? YES

For once both MACs and Pc's are based on the same freaking x86 architecture they have the same components in them ( the same core2duos the same nvidia cards the same Kingston memory modules etc etc etc ). You can even upgrade MAC's now days since they are not a closed platform as they were 5-6 years ago

So again a Macbook pro 15" has the exact same hardware as a Toshiba Sattelite A665 ( both have the same CPU core i5 2,4GHZ, the same GPU nvidia GF GT330M, Both have 4gb of Ram, Both have a 15" screen , both have a 50GB HD etc etc etc). You can install Win7 on Macbook pro or vice versa you can install MacOS on toshiba

The difference Toshiba is $850 while the Macbook pro is $1800 and then tell me if that isnt an overpriced piece of s***t that the only difference it has from that toshiba is the OS and if you want MacOs that bad add another $150 buy it and install it on toshiba

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] Macs are expensive but not overpriced. Especially not "incredibly" overpriced.

There are plenty of defenses but I'll list a few:

Stable OS based on Unix How is OSX any more stable than Windows 7? It crashes less but freezes more from my experiences with it.

Simpler yet more powerful UI Depends on how you use the PC, but there's really nothing simpler about the UI of a MAC if you just use it for internet or games.

Higher resale value Why are you buying a PC for it's resale value? I buy PC's to last me a decade or more, pending occasional upgrades.

Steam This isn't a defense when other PC's have steam, and in fact have the full support of steam, while MAC only supports a small portion of steam games.

Less security risk With a much smaller market share there is less incentive to create malicious content, but even if it equaled Window's systems, anyone with half a brain can properly install security software, especially when windows 7 tells you to once you install it. This also depends how you use the PC. Visiting unsafe websites and clicking on every contest you win will screw you no matter what OS you use.

Works on any network platform, Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux... Honestly I'm not sure about Windows' network support so I'll just give you this one.

Performance Uh, no. For less money I can get better hardware with better performance than a MAC. And I don't have to buy a whole new PC when I want better performance, I can just upgrade separate components.

I'll go into detail of each if you want.

Zero_epyon

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

1. Subjective statement (null)

2.Subjective statement (null)

3.Subjective statement (null)

4.There are barely any games on steam for the Mac and they run much worse than their Windows counterpart. Plus not all games are on steam, there is a large amount that aren't and many are great.

5. I use free anti virus programs, free anti spyware and anti malware programs. So it is no extra price and I never get viruses.

6. Still works alright with some tweaking.

7. Mac pros are super overpriced, their lowest model is 2500 USD and the PC I built for under 1000USD is better.

I would say no , they are not. People say it is just a pc on a different os . isnt that what a console is?

Its not the same platfrom it has its own hardware and software. macs were the first home computers .

i'm just going to leave this here

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

I would say no , they are not. People say it is just a pc on a different os . isnt that what a console is?

Its not the same platfrom it has its own hardware and software. macs were the first home computers .

Zero_epyon

The PC term was from IBM PC i.e. The IBM PC was a type of microcomputer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcomputer

In common usage, "microcomputer" has been largely supplanted by the description "personal computer" or "PC," which describes that it has been designed to be used by one person at a time. IBM first promoted the term "personal computer" to differentiate themselves from other microcomputers, often called "home computers", and also IBM's own mainframes and minicomputers. Unfortunately for IBM, the microcomputer itself was widely imitated, as well as the term. The component parts were commonly available to manufacturers and the BIOS was reverse engineered through cleanroom design techniques. IBM PC compatible "clones" became commonplace, and the terms "Personal Computer," and especially "PC" stuck with the general public

Common usage for "PC" is ussually refers to IBM PC and compatibles.

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Please do go into detail.

RyviusRan

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

1. Subjective statement (null)

2.Subjective statement (null)

3.Subjective statement (null)

4.There are barely any games on steam for the Mac and they run much worse than their Windows counterpart. Plus not all games are on steam, there is a large amount that aren't and many are great.

5. I use free anti virus programs, free anti spyware and anti malware programs. So it is no extra price and I never get viruses.

6. Still works alright with some tweaking.

7. Mac pros are super overpriced, their lowest model is 2500 USD and the PC I built for under 1000USD is better.

1 2 & 3 ) Being an IT professional I hardly think these are subjective views. However, if you can provide a non subjective counter be my guest.

4 5 & 6) Already discussed.

7) Agreed.

i'm just going to leave this here

[QUOTE="ohthemanatee"]

i'm just going to leave this here

musicalmac

aawww man, I was hoping to add more fuel to the fire, why did you have to come in and bring logic? :P

Yes they are the same.

They most defintely are the same as anypersonal computer. Anyone saying differently has the fanboy goggles on

They most defintely are the same as anypersonal computer. Anyone saying differently has the fanboy goggles on

_R34LiTY_

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

[QUOTE="edinsftw"]Into detail: hes sorry that he was wrong

edinsftw

Well the fact of the matter is you cant argue with fanboys of anything, they dont care about logic. So i thought...why not tell him what he wants to hear, cuz its not coming from a fanboy.

Irrefutable facts:(when i say pc i mean windows)

1.PC is cheaper, unless its alienware.

2.PC can do anything a mac can

3.PC has the latest and best hardware available

4.PC can do more than the mac os(yes mac can bootcamp, but then its using windows anyway, that in itself is saying macs are obsolete)

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

They most defintely are the same as anypersonal computer. Anyone saying differently has the fanboy goggles on

ohthemanatee

That has what to do with the topic?

[QUOTE="ohthemanatee"][QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

They most defintely are the same as anypersonal computer. Anyone saying differently has the fanboy goggles on

_R34LiTY_

That has what to do with the topic?

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

[QUOTE="ohthemanatee"] *looks at your sig* I don't get the Bill Clinton one :(ohthemanatee

That has what to do with the topic?

Better to PM the guyt han derail ths thread.

Anyway, what more is there to discuss? PCs and Macs are one in the same, category wise.

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"][QUOTE="Sheppard212"]

If a Mac isn't a personal computer, what is it then? An overglorified iPod? (sarcasm) And the Mac has a game library? Consisting of what? They should be counted because they're a legitimate system that dwarf the conoles in sales. Not to mention PCs have backwards compatibility.

A bit of a hostile tone and I apologize for that, but please, don't be so obtuse.

adamosmaki

Explain this. Can you legally install Ps3 OS into 360 and play legally PS3 games on 360 or vice versa? NO

Can you legally install Windows7 on MAC and play all those nice Windows games on a MAC? YES

Can you legally install MACOS on an HP that came with windows and dual boot into either windows for your gaming needs or MAC for the rest? YES

For once both MACs and Pc's are based on the same freaking x86 architecture they have the same components in them ( the same core2duos the same nvidia cards the same Kingston memory modules etc etc etc ). You can even upgrade MAC's now days since they are not a closed platform as they were 5-6 years ago

So again a Macbook pro 15" has the exact same hardware as a Toshiba Sattelite A665 ( both have the same CPU core i5 2,4GHZ, the same GPU nvidia GF GT330M, Both have 4gb of Ram, Both have a 15" screen , both have a 50GB HD etc etc etc). You can install Win7 on Macbook pro or vice versa you can install MacOS on toshiba

The difference Toshiba is $850 while the Macbook pro is $1800 and then tell me if that isnt an overpriced piece of s***t that the only difference it has from that toshiba is the OS and if you want MacOs that bad add another $150 buy it and install it on toshiba

Does Toshiba Sattelite A665 include out-of-the-box UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) ROM?

PS I have bought retail Mac OS X 10.6 andh ave attempt to install on ASUS G1SN, ASUS N80VP, Sony Vaio VGN-FW45, Dell Studio XPS 1645. Without UEFI+Apple's keyfile, all install attempts have failed.

[QUOTE="adamosmaki"]

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"] Mac is a pc, but is just as different as the 360/ps3. I have a gaming rig and play on that more then my consoles these days, but I hate the elitest attitude i see in SW from the hermits. The Pc wins anyway, so what, all I was saying is if the mac and pc are the same catagory then the Pc when being compared in SW should go against the consoles as a whole not individually, even if the pc still wins, that wasnt my point.ronvalencia

Explain this. Can you legally install Ps3 OS into 360 and play legally PS3 games on 360 or vice versa? NO

Can you legally install Windows7 on MAC and play all those nice Windows games on a MAC? YES

Can you legally install MACOS on an HP that came with windows and dual boot into either windows for your gaming needs or MAC for the rest? YES

For once both MACs and Pc's are based on the same freaking x86 architecture they have the same components in them ( the same core2duos the same nvidia cards the same Kingston memory modules etc etc etc ). You can even upgrade MAC's now days since they are not a closed platform as they were 5-6 years ago

So again a Macbook pro 15" has the exact same hardware as a Toshiba Sattelite A665 ( both have the same CPU core i5 2,4GHZ, the same GPU nvidia GF GT330M, Both have 4gb of Ram, Both have a 15" screen , both have a 50GB HD etc etc etc). You can install Win7 on Macbook pro or vice versa you can install MacOS on toshiba

The difference Toshiba is $850 while the Macbook pro is $1800 and then tell me if that isnt an overpriced piece of s***t that the only difference it has from that toshiba is the OS and if you want MacOs that bad add another $150 buy it and install it on toshiba

PS I have bought retail Mac OS X 10.6.

So having a better BIOS ( because in the end UEFI is a beter replacement of Bios ) cost $850 more?

If its that important fyi HP elite notebooks use UEFI as does some MSI m/b's and other brands as well. So if you want uefi that badly i'm sure you will find a similarly spec Hp laptop for way less than $1800 ( again really uefi justifies the extra $850 over the toshiba??!! )

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="adamosmaki"]

Explain this. Can you legally install Ps3 OS into 360 and play legally PS3 games on 360 or vice versa? NO

Can you legally install Windows7 on MAC and play all those nice Windows games on a MAC? YES

Can you legally install MACOS on an HP that came with windows and dual boot into either windows for your gaming needs or MAC for the rest? YES

For once both MACs and Pc's are based on the same freaking x86 architecture they have the same components in them ( the same core2duos the same nvidia cards the same Kingston memory modules etc etc etc ). You can even upgrade MAC's now days since they are not a closed platform as they were 5-6 years ago

So again a Macbook pro 15" has the exact same hardware as a Toshiba Sattelite A665 ( both have the same CPU core i5 2,4GHZ, the same GPU nvidia GF GT330M, Both have 4gb of Ram, Both have a 15" screen , both have a 50GB HD etc etc etc). You can install Win7 on Macbook pro or vice versa you can install MacOS on toshiba

The difference Toshiba is $850 while the Macbook pro is $1800 and then tell me if that isnt an overpriced piece of s***t that the only difference it has from that toshiba is the OS and if you want MacOs that bad add another $150 buy it and install it on toshiba

adamosmaki

PS I have bought retail Mac OS X 10.6.

So having a better BIOS ( because in the end UEFI is a beter replacement of Bios ) cost $850 more?

If its that important fyi HP elite notebooks use UEFI as does some MSI m/b's and other brands as well. So if you want uefi that badly i'm sure you will find a similarly spec Hp laptop for way less than $1800 ( again really uefi justifies the extra $850 over the toshiba??!! )

[QUOTE="Kahuna_1"]

PC is a personal computer. A Macintosh is a personal computer. It just uses a different operating system.

dontshackzmii

consoles are computers to.

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]

Hermits will all say yes, it only another way for them to have a unfair avantage. They get to boast how Pc is the best with its upgradable hardware, and now pull from the macs game library as well. This is more important to them now because SC2 was on mac as well. I think the Pc should be tossed out ow SW discussions it has to many unfair advantages, the Ps3 and 360 are just as alike as a mac and pc. The mac and pc are both Pc's just like the ps3 and 360 are both consoles, when they are counting games and such should we not lump all the consoles against the PC's? Why not they get to.

N30F3N1X

Okay, genius.

Point out the games that hermits brag about from the Mac platform.

Another one that tries to be tech savvy and crushed his own argument with a total void of knowledge :roll:

[QUOTE="Advid-Gamer"]Mac is a pc, but is just as different as the 360/ps3. I have a gaming rig and play on that more then my consoles these days, but I hate the elitest attitude i see in SW from the hermits. The Pc wins anyway, so what, all I was saying is if the mac and pc are the same catagory then the Pc when being compared in SW should go against the consoles as a whole not individually, even if the pc still wins, that wasnt my point.N30F3N1X

What the **** are you on about?

Have you ever seen a thread where PC only gets pitted against one console instead of all 3?

The hypocrisy meter in this thread is going sky high :?

Mac and PC are like guns.

Lets say i have a shotgun. ( In this case it will be the computer itself)

I can have more then one type of round to it. Lets say i change the rounds to a other rounds its the same gun just using different bullets.

Now PS3 is a machine gun and xbox is a pistol.. get what i mean?

Ah.. i suck at this.. but it should give you a good idea.

[QUOTE="RyviusRan"]

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"]

1) Well if we're going by experiences, my experience is that applications built for OS X run smoother than ported apps from windows. I have not had freezing or crashing issues with any applications I've used on Mac OS X. Including the ones made by Microsoft (Office 2004, 2008). So far I've needed to reinstall Windows 7 6 times since last year because of instability, random crashes and general stress. I've only done one install of OS X on my laptop and that was to install snow leopard.

2) There's nothing simpler? Kind of like how Windows now has a neat search function in the start menu similar to the spotlight icon on the OS X menu bar? Or how about the Dock icons that hold all info about the application your using (windows, etc.) just like windows 7 does now? Or perhaps you're talking about the wizards that help you solve basic issues, like Network diagnostics, with a click of a button that Windows 7 started doing? Windows 7 UI is a half baked attempt at mimicking OS X and still fails. I've had a network diagnostic crash on me and disabled my network card in the process. I had to reboot to get it enabled again. Never happens in OS X.

3) I am a PC enthusiats. I don't stick with one type of system for 10 years. No PC gamer should if they want to get a great experience from their games. So I often find myslef selling my old gaming rig when I build a new one. I get a fraction back for what I paid for it. However, I sold a Mac that was 5 years old and got back 65% of what I paid for it brand new. Who wouldn't like that?

4) Steam was one of the main things keeping Macs from being considered as respectable gaming machines. Now that Steam is here and Valve is happy to support it it gives macs some more worth.

5) I am aware that the reason there aren't viruses on macs is because of the smaller market share. But don't you think it having to buy extra security more of an expense on the average PC user? Think about it, it's basically an annual subscription just to keep viruses off of your computer. It only adds to the TCO which anti-mac users fight so much about.

6) Windows can work with other networks but it takes some work to get it to work properly with something not windows. Shares are usually the easiest because they usually use the same protocols.

7) Well this I can give a little. You do have a point about the upgrade. To be able to upgrade a mac you'd need either a Mac Mini or Mac Pro. The best you can do with the others are memory.

Zero_epyon

1. Subjective statement (null)

2.Subjective statement (null)

3.Subjective statement (null)

4.There are barely any games on steam for the Mac and they run much worse than their Windows counterpart. Plus not all games are on steam, there is a large amount that aren't and many are great.

5. I use free anti virus programs, free anti spyware and anti malware programs. So it is no extra price and I never get viruses.

6. Still works alright with some tweaking.

7. Mac pros are super overpriced, their lowest model is 2500 USD and the PC I built for under 1000USD is better.

1 2 & 3 ) Being an IT professional I hardly think these are subjective views. However, if you can provide a non subjective counter be my guest.

4 5 & 6) Already discussed.

7) Agreed.

It's a subjective statement so it needs no counter based on the definition of "subjective".

Yes 4-5-6 have been discussed but what I said about them is correct.

Glad that you agree on 7.