more dev support shifting to the Wii!! (bye bye next gen rofl)

But why does gaming NEED these huge budgets? I see it as a step towards bankruptcy myself. You gotta look at the dangers of both sides.

With that...g'night.

gromit007

i agree. also, people here are too worried and too negative.

Awesome. Look at all the other fanboys cryingZhengi

OK, I'll stop crying. You should take off your blinders.

This is great news for Nintendo fanboys because with sales success it appears as though their "team" is winning. They have something to cheer for. For people like me, people without a "team" who only care about the quality of games themselves and not the perceived financial success of a corporate logo, it gives rise to a disturbing trend.

The industry is at a crossroads now more than it has ever been. For the first time in its history non-gamers (your Mom, your sister, your 9 year old neighbor Jenny, your grandmother, etc.) are actually beginning to occupy a considerable amount of the overall gaming fanbase. If they were to become the majority then the majority of games will be catered to their tastes (and thus not appealing to people like myself... who have been playing the "traditional" types of videogames for more than 2 decades.) If you're part of this new demographic this is excellent news, for me... not so much.

Suppose you're Developer X. You have a budget of 20 million to allot to one or more games (whichever you deem more financially sensible.) In the past you might be inclined to funnel the whole of that 20 million into a very high quality, fleshed out game and, in time, turn a significant profit on your creation. But now, why would you? If you can take that money and make 5 or 6 games on the Wii with very little depth (because those are precisely the types of games that will appeal most directly to this newfound "non-gaming" demographic, they don't want what I [and many others here] would consider to be a great game) why would you ever develop a more expensive, traditional game on the other platforms? You wouldn't, it would make absolutely no financial sense. Developing a game is a financial investment in a targeted demographic. A developer looks at a fanbase, looks at the games they're most likely to buy, and tailors a game to their preference hoping to turn a profit. The very second after this new Wii demographic becomes the majority, or even a very large portion of it, you'll see a paradigm shift in game development. It has already begun.

Just wait. When the ps3 starts losing support from third parties the system will lose almost all support.

The wii is selling like crazy, but the software is not, nintendo hasn't made this very apparent because all they do is point to the hardware sales, but the truth is the only games that have sold outstandingly are launch titles when people buy the games they plan on playing till more come out, but the crowds nintendo is trying to drag in DO NOT buy all that many games.Right now it may seem like an awkward phase or something, but its not going to change, because nintendo wants these people and they like the system, they just don't buy that many games.

The problem is 3rd parties are going to see their profits increase for a short amount of time then rapidly spiral downward, the nintendo wii in the end will ONLY benefit nintendo if it even manages that in the end.

I can't believe you think you can tell everyone what a "hardcore" game is.
Teufelhuhn

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

That's just the thing, we haven't been using stick figures anymore, and people in games actually look like people. There really is no need to move on, as we move forward small devs are hurting, and THEY are the ones that make the hardcore games and they can't afford to go on. So people shove them to XBLA to make a bunch of simple games instead of making the REAL games they want to make like JRPG's, WRPG's, FPS's, Adventure Platformers, etc.

Teufelhuhn

If your killing dedictated devs in the process....yes.

Stick figures looked like people too, and they served their purpose of letting us know what exactly they represented. Why didn't we stop graphics development right there?

I can't believe that you stated something so ridiculous. There's a different between actually seeing someones face, expressions, skin, and clothes instead of seeing a stick figure.

So what if the cost of entry continues to rise for console development?

Capcom squashes Clover, lights out for bright studio

Troika shuts its doors after weeks of rumours

93 percent of new IP fails in the marketplace.

That happens.

Just because MS wants to only release gimmicky arcade games on its downloadable service, it doesn't mean small developers will forever be forced to make geometry wars clones. Sony is clearly serious about having a wide variety of games with various degrees of complexity, production, and creativity on its service (as seen by games like Warhawk, Echochrome, flow, and Wipeout HD).

Talk about full lengthy games *one first party and another remake or enhanced port*. They definatly compare to the greats such as Half-Life, Princess Crown, and Psychonauts. You do realize you haven't listed one true single player game, that being a game with a story. List me a game that a small dev. is making something along the lines of Resident Evil, Grandia, or Shinobi then I'll turn my head. Heck your statement just prooved my point more so since you failed to name one structured single player game in that small list of yours.

Steam has already been home to full-fledged indie efforts like Darwinia.

One game is all you can name? *over-rated at that*

I find it ridiculous that the technology bar should have to be artificially held back in order to give indie developers a chance.

I find it ridiculous it should be risen to dumb down gaming and having less creative games released so that less games will be made for the fans and be dumbed down as with the case with Oblivion and Rainbow Six. I find it ridiculous that devs that create games that focus on presentation keep their doors open while devs that makes games that focus on a complex and deep experience get their doors closed. Tell me why did Trokia have to close down their doors again? Oh yeah because their game wasn't some stream shooter that's right. Moving forward and killing dedicated developers who make games solely for the gamer just to see high resolution graphics and bigger levels of what the big companies that casualize the industry by dumbing down PC games and killing genres *how many platformers *Kameo isn't a platformer*, 2D fighters, and Adventure games do you see for retail for the 360?* and stagnanting the industry *how many shooters have you played that stray away from the war or space marine fiasco? Not many all I can think of is Call of Juarez*, now THAT is what's ridiculous if you ask me.

Way to put words in my mouth here. You brought up presentation in this discussion, not I.

"Presentation has been a huge part of games ever since we stopped using stick figures to represent people on the Atari 2600."

Yes I may of brought it up but you responded that it is a huge part in games.

I don't even know what you're talking about with that "every game has to have great graphics" bit.

So games don't have to live up to certain graphical standards?

I can't believe you think you can tell everyone what a "hardcore" game is.
Teufelhuhn

I can't believe you said that when A) I was giving my opinon to the replied poster. and B) Your the one here arguing with people that so called "unhardcore games" are going to damage the industry.

hahaha, and see sheep will spin this saying it's dominating and they are going to get the games....o really?

Look at what is being said......"Instead of spending $15 million to make an epic game, give me 5-6 Wii trash titles that will generate money".

Before all you sheep become happy as pig in ****, remember this.......all you are going to see is casual/casual trash games that are so dumbed down that your grandma will want to play it. Prepare for WiiFitness spinoffs. It's sad but I think this is Sonys fault. In all honestly when Nintendo finds out they need more epic games, this whole deck of cards is going to come crashing down. All these 3rd party developers that think what Wii customers want is cheap games are going to be in for a big surprise.

Just wait. When the ps3 starts losing support from third parties the system will lose almost all support.

The wii is selling like crazy, but the software is not, nintendo hasn't made this very apparent because all they do is point to the hardware sales, but the truth is the only games that have sold outstandingly are launch titles when people buy the games they plan on playing till more come out, but the crowds nintendo is trying to drag in DO NOT buy all that many games.Right now it may seem like an awkward phase or something, but its not going to change, because nintendo wants these people and they like the system, they just don't buy that many games.

The problem is 3rd parties are going to see their profits increase for a short amount of time then rapidly spiral downward, the nintendo wii in the end will ONLY benefit nintendo if it even manages that in the end.

falconclan

This is what I was thinking. 1st party titles will sale like crazy....pretty much everything else (with few exceptions) is trash and will continue to be trash. Those thinking they are going to milk the Wii customers may be in for a shocker when PS3 takes off.

its current gen. there is so such thing as next gen. as there hasnt been metion to ayone of us. sales speak.... :| get over it wii is current gen like it or not.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I can't believe you think you can tell everyone what a "hardcore" game is.
Dencore

I can't believe you said that when A) I was giving my opinon to the poster. and B) Your the one here arguing with people that so called "unhardcore games" are going to damage the industry.

I'm at a complete loss for words. I think I'm getting dizzy...Teufelhuhn

The PC will still get its games.

That's absolutely horrific. So, instead of taking $15 or $20 million and making one or two really solid Wii titles, something akin to Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts, or God of War 2 on the PS2, they're going to split that money amongst five or six low budget titles. Wonderful...

There are simply things that cannot be done on a budget *regardless* of what system you're on, this kind of "the Wii is where we do it cheaply" attitude disgusts me:

"Look, we'll make six cheap games, assuming they all sell mediocre, if even one of them sells well, we'll make back double our investment."

With that attitude, the third parties flood the market, and consumers are left going "uh...where's the good software?" Which leaves one of two things happening: the first is that the market crashes like it did in 1983. This is unlikely because of controls put in place to prevent that from happening again. The alternative is that consumers stop trusting third parties, and it comes back to bite them in the butt. Gamers are just going to start going "third parties suck" and relying on Nintendo's quality titles over shoddy third party ones, and third parties are going to get their well deserved market failure.
subrosian

...Well, I can dream, can't I?

I seriously find the gaming community of today just flatout patheitc. Small developers MAKE the hardcore games, but oh yeah I forgot amazing level design or a skillful tacitiful combat system doesn't make a game "hardcore", voice acting and high res. graphics do.Dencore

Errr yes, then what happens? Look at Crytek ... 20 people for Far Cry , it was good, but didnt sell amazingly, but look at the difference now with 150 people , Nivida/Microsoft/Intel/EA all mass publishing it ....

Without them Crysis wouldnt have been possible. ( 15 Million Euroes. )

For those spinning the gloom and doom, you do realize that 5 or 6 pitched games does not equal 5 or 6 created games. shadowcat2576

This is worth reiterating. Maybe only the best game out of the 5 or so that was pitched end up being approved and gets the whole $20 million dollar investment.

Pitch does not equal Games. Pitch is an idea. Many pitches are made but never see the light of day. TV has pitches all the time and only a small fraction become shows. That's where a lot of you are jumping to conclusions. It's not saying here take this $20 mil and make me 6 games. It's saying "I want to invest this $20 mil over here, give me 6 ideas on how to do that." That could ultimately lead to 1 $20 mil Wii game, 2 $10 mil, maybe 1 $10 and 2 $5 mil games. We don't know yet, but I will almost promise you that it doesn't mean 6 $3 mil games.

Yes 1st party Wii games are selling the best. What is doing the 2nd best? Games that are designed specifically for the Wii-mote. This tells me that 3rd parties should try to create unique gaming experiences. Are we going to see a glut of poor games, yes, but this is true of any system in any gen. Some people are taking an either or approach, but it's not. It's possible to have both garbage and quality games.

For all those "Non-gamers don't buy games", why does the Wii have the second highest attach rate next to 360? If all these "non-gamers" are buying Wii's but not games, the rest of the Wii owners must be buying a heck of a lot of games.

Why is Nintendo taking the brunt of the anger. Why not get upset that Sony and MS apparently jumped the gun and moved gaming out of the reach of most people. If the only reason Wii sells is the price, than conversely the only reason PS3 doesn't sell is the price. High price=low sales=low install base=low game sales pair that with High dev costs and you have a pretty dangerous mix.

Stop trolling dencore, this article, along with others, is proof that non-traditional gamers are *already* damaging the industry. Nintendo Wii fans have said over-and-over that the reason many Wii titles are graphically inferior to GCN titles, and offering shallower gameplay experiences is because the developers are not utilizing the system. I am inclined to agree - Nintendo fans are correct - developers are NOT pushing the system, and it is because publishers view it as a toy to make money with.

Hardcore titles like Metroid Prime 3 cost *money* to make, it is much less expensive to make a simple game with slideshow storytelling than it is to make one with animated cutscenes, a full 3D world, and deep gameplay. Why does Trauma Center use unanimated cutscenes? Cost. Why don't we get to explore and built relationships with the other doctors in a full 3D world? Cost. Would these features add to the value of that game? Absolutely, for me they would have made it a more enjoyable game - I want the drama of House combined with the gameplay of Trauma Center, but you don't get both without ponying up cash, and if it sells without those features, they feel no need to add them.

What happening here is titles like MP3, Final Fantasy X, and God of War 2 aren't coming out of the third parties, and these titles are sparse in the Wii library. Again - the evidence is all there in front of you - you cannot take the budget for one amazing game, split it amongst six smaller budget titles, and expect to get even one game that matches the game you could have created.

The non-gamer audience on the Wii, who do not demand these high-cost / high-quality titles are hurting the Wii's library, and as a traditional gamer, they're hurting the games I have to choose from. There is no debating this point, the facts are laid out. For Nintendo fans the question is "will there be enough for me still to enjoy the system?", but for gamers there is absolutely no question that non-gamers are having a negative affect on the availability of high-calibur games.
subrosian

I think you're read a little too deep into this. just because they are shifting resources or making more wii games doesn't mean to me that it's damaging the industry. I agree that devs haven't pushed the wii yet but it's not because they view it as a toy, it's because they had not yet actually shifted till recently. you can't say "look at the past and see the future" when the conditions have changed.

Yes mp3 costs money but i'm sure it costs less than halo3 and killzone2 to make. a LOT less. as for Trauma Center. I like the anime ****of the story telling. it's a manga soap opera. if it was a 3d world. well first you don't need one since walking from a room to another would be mostly what you'd do. How would a user actually play something like house? it's all dialog. I don't see walking in the halls and a critical factor in house.

As i've said before I don't believe that the 3rd party will abandon their top titles. the casual or nongamer market will have a saturation point just like any other genre. they can't make a lot of them without boxing eachother out. they'll see that soon and go back to games for core gamers. this seems just like how the first ps1 got a lot of shovel-ware in the beginning that just wanted to use the cd space with cgi but most we're very good.

I'd disagree that non-gamers do not demand high-quality games. their perception of quality is just different. they want fun games. but there will always be a market for the core gamer. pubs/devs know there's money there. the nongamers aren't going buy 5 of the same type of game in a month.

[QUOTE="shadowcat2576"]For those spinning the gloom and doom, you do realize that 5 or 6 pitched games does not equal 5 or 6 created games. chuchu258

This is worth reiterating. Maybe only the best game out of the 5 or so that was pitched end up being approved and gets the whole $20 million dollar investment.

[QUOTE="Zhengi"]Awesome. Look at all the other fanboys cryingBill_McBlumpkin

OK, I'll stop crying. You should take off your blinders.

This is great news for Nintendo fanboys because with sales success it appears as though their "team" is winning. They have something to cheer for. For people like me, people without a "team" who only care about the quality of games themselves and not the perceived financial success of a corporate logo, it gives rise to a disturbing trend.

The industry is at a crossroads now more than it has ever been. For the first time in its history non-gamers (your Mom, your sister, your 9 year old neighbor Jenny, your grandmother, etc.) are actually beginning to occupy a considerable amount of the overall gaming fanbase. If they were to become the majority then the majority of games will be catered to their tastes (and thus not appealing to people like myself... who have been playing the "traditional" types of videogames for more than 2 decades.) If you're part of this new demographic this is excellent news, for me... not so much.

Suppose you're Developer X. You have a budget of 20 million to allot to one or more games (whichever you deem more financially sensible.) In the past you might be inclined to funnel the whole of that 20 million into a very high quality, fleshed out game and, in time, turn a significant profit on your creation. But now, why would you? If you can take that money and make 5 or 6 games on the Wii with very little depth (because those are precisely the types of games that will appeal most directly to this newfound "non-gaming" demographic, they don't want what I [and many others here] would consider to be a great game) why would you ever develop a more expensive, traditional game on the other platforms? You wouldn't, it would make absolutely no financial sense. Developing a game is a financial investment in a targeted demographic. A developer looks at a fanbase, looks at the games they're most likely to buy, and tailors a game to their preference hoping to turn a profit. The very second after this new Wii demographic becomes the majority, or even a very large portion of it, you'll see a paradigm shift in game development. It has already begun.

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I can't believe you think you can tell everyone what a "hardcore" game is.
subrosian

I can't believe you said that when A) I was giving my opinon to the poster. and B) Your the one here arguing with people that so called "unhardcore games" are going to damage the industry.

The PS2 won last gen, especially with gamers, because it had the most DIVERSE library of games.

Microsoft took it a step further; the 360 is winning this gen, especially with gamers, because it has the most diverse library of GREAT games.

THAT is what the industry needs to focus on; making DIVERSE, QUALITY games.

[QUOTE="chuchu258"]

[QUOTE="shadowcat2576"]For those spinning the gloom and doom, you do realize that 5 or 6 pitched games does not equal 5 or 6 created games. subrosian

This is worth reiterating. Maybe only the best game out of the 5 or so that was pitched end up being approved and gets the whole $20 million dollar investment.

How is the scenario we've painted any more false than the one that you painted? It's been said many times that the development costs for Wii is much cheaper than PS3. Why would it be impossible to think a top of the line Wii title doesn't cost as much as a top of the line PS3 title to make and so more Wii games, even quality ones, can be created out of the budget of a PS3 game?

[QUOTE="chuchu258"]

[QUOTE="shadowcat2576"]For those spinning the gloom and doom, you do realize that 5 or 6 pitched games does not equal 5 or 6 created games. subrosian

This is worth reiterating. Maybe only the best game out of the 5 or so that was pitched end up being approved and gets the whole $20 million dollar investment.

from a business prospective it's putting all your eggs in 1 basket or a couple of different ones.

wii games cost less because they are easier to develop for. if you're going for an action game about 10 hours long it'll cost much less than the ps3 version. would a company take the savings and make the game 50 hours long? probably not if it's an action game. is that a bad thing? depends on how you look at it. they'll have the money to make more games and have a chance at being good. aa gamers we're looking for more good games. lower development costs will allow more risks into game development as well. this is a very good thing.

Why do people always jump to conclusions and start panicking? This kind of thing happens all the time, when a new type of game sells well/ becomes popular a slew of clones flood the market. Look what happened with GTA3. The fact of the matter is that the first games that Nintendo released for the WII were minigames, which were an instant win. Now of course lots of developers want to ride on that co-tail.

What do you think will happen when Nintendo release Mario/MP3 and Smash and they become huge hits. We will see a slew of platform,shooters and fighting games. Most of those will end up being mediocer games made in a rush, but some will be decent AA titles. Already we have a decent amount of WII games that are not mini-games announced for release this year.

As for the PS3/360, developers are not going to abandon them, simply because they have a huge user base which is likely to increase as the price of the systems go down. They might never reach the userbase of the WII (if it continues at the current selling rate), but there are still going to be over 50 Million userbases (I am being very conservative) and the fact that they can sell games multi-platform (PS3/360/PC) means that there is still a huge market there. It would not make any kind of sence to just pick up and leave an established profitable market share. It makes more sense to expand to include other market shares like the WII.

Now smaller companies may decide to go the way of the WII, but you know what, the good companies will make thier money in that market and jump/expand into the360/PS3/PC area, or ifthey dont make the jump this gen then they will next gen.New companies can not afford to start out by making amulti-million game for the 360/PS3, and it is nice for them to havea starting place other than the PC.

[QUOTE="subrosian]
Actually that's not true at all - low prices are much more dangerous. Low priced titles, in a market where consumers are unable to distinguish the improvements a more expensive title provides, result in a sales failure for high priced titles. Quite literally, the presence of cheap (junk) software floods expensive titles out of the market. That is *exactly* what happened with the Atari, and exactly what is happening here.

All that has to happen is for publishers to completely shift to a Wii "non-gamer" focus, and for those non-gamers to get bored, for the next great console gaming crash to happen.

You're watching a very dangerous downward spiral being right now, if you cannot see it, I apologize, but here it is - in front of you. Nintendo is cashing out right now, making *huge* profits on everything they do in the absense of competition, and yet the market others are now eyeing - seeing Nintendo's success - cannot sustain everyone who is rushing to it. It's simple economics - the non-gamer segment does not buy *that many* titles per year, a flooded market bars out quality titles - and it's the core gamer who suffers because of it.

And when the crash comes? We'll be the only ones who care.

You're assuming high priced (developmentwise)titles won't show that they are of superiorquality than budget titles? That's either an insult to consumers or developers or both. The PC market is flooded with budget/shareware/freeware/piracysoftware and thats not bringing their market to a crash. Or perhaps I am blind, I do wear glasses and I am a software engineer so what do I know.

You're assuming high priced (developmentwise)titles won't show that they are of superiorquality than budget titles? That's either an insult to consumers or developers or both. The PC market is flooded with budget/shareware/freeware/piracysoftware and thats not bringing their market to a crash. Or perhaps I am blind, I do wear glasses and I am a software engineer so what do I know.

chuchu258

Agreed Half-Life, CounterStrike, Trauma Center, Killer 7, Contact, Vampies: Blood of the Masquerade, and Odin Sphere these games are HORRIBLE!

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="chuchu258"]

[QUOTE="shadowcat2576"]For those spinning the gloom and doom, you do realize that 5 or 6 pitched games does not equal 5 or 6 created games. Ontain

This is worth reiterating. Maybe only the best game out of the 5 or so that was pitched end up being approved and gets the whole $20 million dollar investment.

from a business prospective it's putting all your eggs in 1 basket or a couple of different ones.

wii games cost less because they are easier to develop for. if you're going for an action game about 10 hours long it'll cost much less than the ps3 version. would a company take the savings and make the game 50 hours long? probably not if it's an action game. is that a bad thing? depends on how you look at it. they'll have the money to make more games and have a chance at being good. aa gamers we're looking for more good games. lower development costs will allow more risks into game development as well. this is a very good thing.

It's an EXTREMELY good thing.

Lookat the current market there is literally no varitey especially in retail. I want to play a quality JRPG, are there any for these current gen consoles *No Enchat arms sucks*? I want to play a quality new 2D fighter, any for these consoels? How about a platformer? Beat-em-up? Adventure game? There is literally next to no variety last gen didn't have as big of a problem *go to gamerankings and look at the list of 2000 and 2001 releases for the PS2, GC, and Xbox.

You're assuming high priced (developmentwise)titles won't show that they are of superiorquality than budget titles? That's either an insult to consumers or developers or both. The PC market is flooded with budget/shareware/freeware/piracysoftware and thats not bringing their market to a crash. Or perhaps I am blind, I do wear glasses and I am a software engineer so what do I know.

chuchu258

Okay, I don't want to be a jerk and say "not much" but umm... what does software engineering have to do with the digital media business?
subrosian

Should I put this in my sig.?

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Okay, I don't want to be a jerk and say "not much" but umm... what does software engineering have to do with the digital media business?
Dencore

Should I put this in my sig.?

thats to the wii our sports games and other multi platts wont take that next step like the do when all systems move to next gen.

also the wii will help the ps2 stay alive longer coz devs can just port wii type qualty games to ps2 and bam 100 mil user base to sell to.

munsoned

I think that's great that developers are switching resources over to the Wii, I just don't want to see those "five or six" titles rushed out the door to make money, and just be crappy games.

I can see how this makes sense in the mind of a greedy publisher. Rather than make one good game on PS3, why not make 5 shovelware games on Wii? Wii owners have such low quality standards that you're bound to make a profit. :?Timstuff

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Okay, I don't want to be a jerk and say "not much" but umm... what does software engineering have to do with the digital media business?
Dencore

Should I put this in my sig.?

it would bea pretty silly sig. how does being a software engineer make you an authority in media business? I think you have to clarify the connection between software engineer and media business

Activision stated they were shifted their focus to Wii but also said they believed there is a market for hardcore games on Wii hence the good sales of RE4 on Wii despite it being a ported title. So Wii's success will not damage the market it will merely expand the market and increase non-gamer games but hardcore games will still very much exist.

If Nintendo didn't come out with the Wii and DS, developers and publishers would find it difficult to make a profit this gen, due to low hardware and software sales of PS3. The360 is hardly flying off the shelfs as well so you would be paying more to make titles this gen but you would have a severely lower user base than last gen, if anything that would cause another crash in the market

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Okay, I don't want to be a jerk and say "not much" but umm... what does software engineering have to do with the digital media business?
mangobear

Should I put this in my sig.?

it would bea pretty silly sig. how does being a software engineer make you an authority in media business? I think you have to clarify the connection between software engineer and media business

i guess it is all about the money then...greedy publishers......joeychew

That is exactly why 99% of PS2 titles were complete garbage, so they could cash in by creating cheap titles on a huge user base,the best selling system will always have tons of shovelware but it will also have a huge variety of games and some real gems just like the PS2.

Devs are only going to the Wii so they can get extra cash to develop their real games.

Dev 1: "Hey, our budget's running a little low on the game were making for the PC/PS3/360. What are we going to do to get some extra cash?.

Dev 2: "I got an idea! Why don't we just make a few minigames for the Wii? Its sure to sell millions and get us enough money!"

Dev 1 & others: "Brilliant!!!"

Yep its true

and it sucks for the gamers

R-Dot-Yung

qft

[QUOTE="mangobear"][QUOTE="Dencore"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Okay, I don't want to be a jerk and say "not much" but umm... what does software engineering have to do with the digital media business?
subrosian

Should I put this in my sig.?

it would bea pretty silly sig. how does being a software engineer make you an authority in media business? I think you have to clarify the connection between software engineer and media business

Thats how you seperate a good debater from a bad one: one doesn't need to degrade the other in order to win an argument ;)

But Subrosian I have to congratulate you on your arguments - you were able to articulate very clearly what a lot of people were feeling. Reading your posts is a breath of fresh air in this forum, keep on keeping bro ;)

GAMECUBE: the games are too damn kiddy

Wii: whats with all these kiddy minigames!

Wii2: where did the hardcore games go? :O

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I can't believe you think you can tell everyone what a "hardcore" game is.
Dencore

I can't believe you said that when A) I was giving my opinon to the replied poster. and B) Your the one here arguing with people that so called "unhardcore games" are going to damage the industry.

That's absolutely horrific. So, instead of taking $15 or $20 million and making one or two really solid Wii titles, something akin to Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts, or God of War 2 on the PS2, they're going to split that money amongst five or six low budget titles. Wonderful...

There are simply things that cannot be done on a budget *regardless* of what system you're on, this kind of "the Wii is where we do it cheaply" attitude disgusts me:

"Look, we'll make six cheap games, assuming they all sell mediocre, if even one of them sells well, we'll make back double our investment."

With that attitude, the third parties flood the market, and consumers are left going "uh...where's the good software?" Which leaves one of two things happening: the first is that the market crashes like it did in 1983. This is unlikely because of controls put in place to prevent that from happening again. The alternative is that consumers stop trusting third parties, and it comes back to bite them in the butt. Gamers are just going to start going "third parties suck" and relying on Nintendo's quality titles over shoddy third party ones, and third parties are going to get their well deserved market failure.
subrosian

ATTENTION SYSTEM WARS

Read more carefully! Look at the exact quote:

Publishers are saying: Instead of spending $15 million or $20 million on one PS3 game, come back to me with five or six Wii pitchesJon Goldman

That is not saying that publishers are interested in making 5-6 Wii gameson $2 million budgets.

That IS saying that publishers are balking at the high prices of making a 360 or PS3 game and are more interested in hearing pitches for games on the Wii. That is entirely different from the above presumption.

Honestly, 143 replies based upon a misunderstanding of the quote. This has to be a new SW low.

a lot of you are acting like hardcore games have dissapeared

last i heard 360 and PS3 were getting tons of stuff

That's absolutely horrific. So, instead of taking $15 or $20 million and making one or two really solid Wii titles, something akin to Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts, or God of War 2 on the PS2, they're going to split that money amongst five or six low budget titles. Wonderful...

There are simply things that cannot be done on a budget *regardless* of what system you're on, this kind of "the Wii is where we do it cheaply" attitude disgusts me:

"Look, we'll make six cheap games, assuming they all sell mediocre, if even one of them sells well, we'll make back double our investment."

With that attitude, the third parties flood the market, and consumers are left going "uh...where's the good software?" Which leaves one of two things happening: the first is that the market crashes like it did in 1983. This is unlikely because of controls put in place to prevent that from happening again. The alternative is that consumers stop trusting third parties, and it comes back to bite them in the butt. Gamers are just going to start going "third parties suck" and relying on Nintendo's quality titles over shoddy third party ones, and third parties are going to get their well deserved market failure.
subrosian

GeOW only took like 9 million to make. Low budget =/= bad game

ATTENTION SYSTEM WARS

Read more carefully! Look at the exact quote:

[QUOTE="Jon Goldman"]Publishers are saying: Instead of spending $15 million or $20 million on one PS3 game, come back to me with five or six Wii pitchesHoffgod

That is not saying that publishers are interested in making 5-6 Wii gameson $2 million budgets.

That IS saying that publishers are balking at the high prices of making a 360 or PS3 game and are more interested in hearing pitches for games on the Wii. That is entirely different from the above presumption.

Honestly, 143 replies based upon a misunderstanding of the quote. This has to be a new SW low.

wow F**K gamespot seriously i have to type the same thing twice because it thinks i wrote nothing.

Anyway, the wii is terrible i don't see the point into making game for the wii.