On the subject of UT3 and KB&M vs. Controller.

Dosen't surprise me at all coming from a 360 fanboy magazine. Anyone who has a gaming rig and a console knows that M/K  is  a vastly superior control method. Otherwise, why would FASA/MS institute auto-aim/sticky aim for controller users in  both Halo 2 and Shadowrun????????Huh??????You said what? That's right, because a controller is at a disadvantage. This isn't even a debate, just more garbage from a fanboy magazine that even makes this debate remotely possible.

You have to be one silly fanboy to think a controller, which turns at a snails pace and aims like you are under water, would have any chance against an equally skilled M/K user. Please.  

mismajor99

Read the article...it's not shadowrun...it is UT3.  A true PC game.  The controller was used on PC vs. PC, so all this console comparision's are bogus.

IF unreal just checks if a controller is plugged in and then adds autoaim then I'm sure someone will make a driver that makes the kbm appear as a controller and then they'll get the auto-aim assist as well.

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Dosen't surprise me at all coming from a 360 fanboy magazine. Anyone who has a gaming rig and a console knows that M/K is a vastly superior control method. Otherwise, why would FASA/MS institute auto-aim/sticky aim for controller users in both Halo 2 and Shadowrun????????Huh??????You said what? That's right, because a controller is at a disadvantage. This isn't even a debate, just more garbage from a fanboy magazine that even makes this debate remotely possible.

You have to be one silly fanboy to think a controller, which turns at a snails pace and aims like you are under water, would have any chance against an equally skilled M/K user. Please.

mikasa

Read the article...it's not shadowrun...it is UT3. A true PC game. The controller was used on PC vs. PC, so all this console comparision's are bogus.

IF unreal just checks if a controller is plugged in and then adds autoaim then I'm sure someone will make a driver that makes the kbm appear as a controller and then they'll get the auto-aim assist as well.

I have read it, and you can't blame PC Gamers for being a bit ticked off that certain users are getting auto-aim in their flippin games. It's considered a cheat by any other standards in any other PC FPS.  

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Dosen't surprise me at all coming from a 360 fanboy magazine. Anyone who has a gaming rig and a console knows that M/K  is  a vastly superior control method. Otherwise, why would FASA/MS institute auto-aim/sticky aim for controller users in  both Halo 2 and Shadowrun????????Huh??????You said what? That's right, because a controller is at a disadvantage. This isn't even a debate, just more garbage from a fanboy magazine that even makes this debate remotely possible.

You have to be one silly fanboy to think a controller, which turns at a snails pace and aims like you are under water, would have any chance against an equally skilled M/K user. Please.  

mikasa

Read the article...it's not shadowrun...it is UT3.  A true PC game.  The controller was used on PC vs. PC, so all this console comparision's are bogus.

IF unreal just checks if a controller is plugged in and then adds autoaim then I'm sure someone will make a driver that makes the kbm appear as a controller and then they'll get the auto-aim assist as well.

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Vandalvideo:

I may actually be wrong about the 256x256 movement.  It might be GREATER than that thanks to potentiameters that can determine the exact angle and direction of an analog thumbstick. I thought they still used 8-bit input for these sticks (256), but I can't seem to find any reference for it.  What I have found tends to describe it like it is infinite...  though I know it is not infite.  Maybe it is 16 bit now... that would make it seem like it was infinite.

I may hang with some developers this weekend.  They develop for the 360 (and other consoles).  They'd know for sure.

Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Dosen't surprise me at all coming from a 360 fanboy magazine. Anyone who has a gaming rig and a console knows that M/K is a vastly superior control method. Otherwise, why would FASA/MS institute auto-aim/sticky aim for controller users in both Halo 2 and Shadowrun????????Huh??????You said what? That's right, because a controller is at a disadvantage. This isn't even a debate, just more garbage from a fanboy magazine that even makes this debate remotely possible.

You have to be one silly fanboy to think a controller, which turns at a snails pace and aims like you are under water, would have any chance against an equally skilled M/K user. Please.

mismajor99

Read the article...it's not shadowrun...it is UT3. A true PC game. The controller was used on PC vs. PC, so all this console comparision's are bogus.

IF unreal just checks if a controller is plugged in and then adds autoaim then I'm sure someone will make a driver that makes the kbm appear as a controller and then they'll get the auto-aim assist as well.

I have read it, and you can't blame PC Gamers for being a bit ticked off that certain users are getting auto-aim in their flippin games. It's considered a cheat by any other standards in any other PC FPS.  

Read the article AGAIN.  This is PC vs. PC.  One with controller one with mouse.  So tell me why are hermits ticked?

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device.  Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same.  I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't.  That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox.  I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

THETRUEDOZAH

Exactly.  Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment.  I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D.  And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter.  But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Vandalvideo:

I may actually be wrong about the 256x256 movement.  It might be GREATER than that thanks to potentiameters that can determine the exact angle and direction of an analog thumbstick. I thought they still used 8-bit input for these sticks (256), but I can't seem to find any reference for it.  What I have found tends to describe it like it is infinite...  though I know it is not infite.  Maybe it is 16 bit now... that would make it seem like it was infinite.

I may hang with some developers this weekend.  They develop for the 360 (and other consoles).  They'd know for sure.

HuusAsking

And another thing...how fast are the bullets in UT3?  if they are slow that will give the guy jumping all over the place or in a vehicle time to get out of the way...forcing the other player to lead with his shot whcih is now harder as the other guy is moving in more than 4 directions.

[QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

mikasa

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim. 

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement? 

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

Danm_999

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point.  And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement.  People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...".  The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.  

[QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Dosen't surprise me at all coming from a 360 fanboy magazine. Anyone who has a gaming rig and a console knows that M/K is a vastly superior control method. Otherwise, why would FASA/MS institute auto-aim/sticky aim for controller users in both Halo 2 and Shadowrun????????Huh??????You said what? That's right, because a controller is at a disadvantage. This isn't even a debate, just more garbage from a fanboy magazine that even makes this debate remotely possible.

You have to be one silly fanboy to think a controller, which turns at a snails pace and aims like you are under water, would have any chance against an equally skilled M/K user. Please.

mikasa

Read the article...it's not shadowrun...it is UT3. A true PC game. The controller was used on PC vs. PC, so all this console comparision's are bogus.

IF unreal just checks if a controller is plugged in and then adds autoaim then I'm sure someone will make a driver that makes the kbm appear as a controller and then they'll get the auto-aim assist as well.

I have read it, and you can't blame PC Gamers for being a bit ticked off that certain users are getting auto-aim in their flippin games. It's considered a cheat by any other standards in any other PC FPS.

Read the article AGAIN. This is PC vs. PC. One with controller one with mouse. So tell me why are hermits ticked?

Let me break something down for you. M/K = 100% PC Gamers while Controller Users are either 100% Console Gamers, and far far fewer PC Gamers. You are missing the point. This is what many people have been trying to get across to you, P Users have the option for both M/K and Controller. Why is than that 99.9% of users prefer M/K? If the controller is better, why aren't PC Gamers using them? You can't answer that question, because it would imply that the controller is not on par with K/M, especially with FPS. This is just silly. 

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Vandalvideo:

I may actually be wrong about the 256x256 movement.  It might be GREATER than that thanks to potentiameters that can determine the exact angle and direction of an analog thumbstick. I thought they still used 8-bit input for these sticks (256), but I can't seem to find any reference for it.  What I have found tends to describe it like it is infinite...  though I know it is not infite.  Maybe it is 16 bit now... that would make it seem like it was infinite.

I may hang with some developers this weekend.  They develop for the 360 (and other consoles).  They'd know for sure.

HuusAsking

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement? Danm_999

 I need a new sig...that is so silly it's sig worthy.  I'll probably add it to my sig.  WTF?  How would auto-movement even work?

Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? tramp

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? mikasa

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? If i want to go in some weird diagonal direction i simply point my mouse in the direction i wish to move.tramp

mikasa enjoys self-owning itself, with a dash of foot in mouth. That's how I picked off right away that it(he or she) was never a PC Gamer, otherwise, it would know that. Most PC Gamers also console game too, so they know. People that aren't PC Gamers have no credibility when it comes to any M/K vs. Controller debate.  

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

mismajor99

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point.  And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement.  People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...".  The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.  

Auto-movement?  What the heck are you guys talking about?  I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point.  Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at.  How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway...  Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller.  Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

[QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

Mystikef

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point. And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement. People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...". The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.

Auto-movement? What the heck are you guys talking about? I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point. Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at. How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway... Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller. Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

You aren't an M/K user obviously. Your mouse is the driving direction, the arrow keys or wasd keys are just the engine. You can do a lot more with a M/K than you could ever do with a controller(Strafe circle jumpng? I don't think so, not with a controller you aren't! lol) . Heck , just turning around in an FPS with a controller is lame compared to M/K. 

Like I said, console only gamers haven't a clue. There is a reason why PC Gamers choose to use a M/K over a controller when they have always had the option for both. I'm a PC gamer and a console gamer, I speak from both sides.  

Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Vandalvideo

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Mystikef

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

[QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? Vandalvideo

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Auto-movement?  What the heck are you guys talking about?  I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point.  Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at.  How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway...  Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller.  Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

Mystikef

Yep, not only did they own themselves with that (and one even agreed with it!) but it's sigworthy!

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

mismajor99

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point. And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement. People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...". The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.

Auto-movement? What the heck are you guys talking about? I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point. Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at. How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway... Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller. Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

You aren't an M/K user obviously. Your mouse is the driving direction, the arrow keys or wasd keys are just the engine. You can do a lot more with a M/K than you could ever do with a controller(Strafe circle jumpng? I don't think so, not with a controller you aren't! lol) . Heck , just turning around in an FPS with a controller is lame compared to M/K. 

Like I said, console only gamers haven't a clue. There is a reason why PC Gamers choose to use a M/K over a controller when they have always had the option for both. I'm a PC gamer and a console gamer, I speak from both sides.  

I PC game and console game both, but because of the weakness of the movement on a keyboard, I tend to like FPS on consoles.  I use a mouse all day at work...  don't need it to play games with it too.

I understand the concept of forward being whichever way the mouse is pointing.  But with a controller, it does not matter which way you are looking.  You can still move ANY direction, not 4 directions, not 8 directions, ANY direction.  You "exclusive Keyboard" users do not get how handy it is for slipping around corners, manuevering objects, dsancing around in firefights, or turning and shooting without missing a step in the direction you are travelling [something that is impossible with a K/m - you zig-zag.]

I get that some of you REALLY LOVE k/m, and I do understand the mouse is more accurate...  but you have to understand an analog stick is much more accurate than four buttons.  I am amazed how stubborn some of you are.  Spock would phaser you in a second if he heard the illogic you guys are trying to convey.  You really think four buttons is more accurate than an analog stick with millions of different positions?

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? mikasa

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Mystikef

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

The only difference that matters to vandal is the differnces that make the KBM better than controller.  Any other differnce is ALMOST the SAME AS...

Obviously using an analog stick to control movement is way better than the Keyboard.  But somehow it's almost the same as...

And now that he said it he'll never admit he was wrong, so all we can do is point out how silly he is for saying it.  of course he'll want to get the last word in as if that will cover his mistake and make him right.

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? Vandalvideo

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Exactly an only being able to use a dpad or keyboard would suck in trying to run away (and not get shot).  Analog is definitely much better.  If it didn't make a difference why even have an analog stick for movement...the dpad would have sufficed.  dpad as stated by mystikef is about the same as keyboard (better but very close in function).  analog is way better than dpad for movement; therefore, it's even mo' better than keyboard.

You know the old If A>>B  and B>C then A >> C (and possibly A>>>C).  And never ever C==A

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? mikasa

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Exactly an only being able to use a dpad or keyboard would suck in trying to run away (and not get shot).  Analog is definitely much better.  If it didn't make a difference why even have an analog stick for movement...the dpad would have sufficed.  dpad as stated by mystikef is about the same as keyboard (better but very close in function).  analog is way better than dpad for movement; therefore, it's even mo' better than keyboard.

You know the old If A>>B  and B>C then A >> C (and possibly A>>>C).  And never ever C==A

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

mismajor99

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point. And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement. People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...". The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.

Auto-movement? What the heck are you guys talking about? I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point. Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at. How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway... Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller. Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

You aren't an M/K user obviously. Your mouse is the driving direction, the arrow keys or wasd keys are just the engine. You can do a lot more with a M/K than you could ever do with a controller(Strafe circle jumpng? I don't think so, not with a controller you aren't! lol) . Heck , just turning around in an FPS with a controller is lame compared to M/K. 

Like I said, console only gamers haven't a clue. There is a reason why PC Gamers choose to use a M/K over a controller when they have always had the option for both. I'm a PC gamer and a console gamer, I speak from both sides.  

I can do that too.

Obviously you're not a true console player or you'd know movement with the controller is far superior than KBM for movement. 

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Vandalvideo

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

I disagree.  First, you are not always aiming and shooting, second of all, it is not any more sporadic than jumping and moving and switching 8 different directions.  You just have MORE control, to land more precisely, to turn corners more precisely, to spin around and shoot while continuing in a single direction, manuevering obstacles faster, etc.

I am not saying WASD sucks...  it doesn't.  I use it at times.  But there is no doubt that the enhanced movement of an analog stick is beneficial.  Just like there is no doubt a mouse is beneficial to aiming.  But...  you can get used to, and become quite adept at WASD, or aiming with a controller.  It really just depends on which you prefer, in the end.  I prefer controller, and you prefer K/m.  Maybe someday we can battle (with my auto-aim turned off) and settle this once and for all...  in a fun way, of course.  :)

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? Vandalvideo

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Exactly an only being able to use a dpad or keyboard would suck in trying to run away (and not get shot).  Analog is definitely much better.  If it didn't make a difference why even have an analog stick for movement...the dpad would have sufficed.  dpad as stated by mystikef is about the same as keyboard (better but very close in function).  analog is way better than dpad for movement; therefore, it's even mo' better than keyboard.

You know the old If A>>B  and B>C then A >> C (and possibly A>>>C).  And never ever C==A

So you're retracting: "With the keys. Its not like joystick gives you a large lead over moving wherever you want. Its almost the exact same."? 

[QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device. Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same. I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't. That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox. I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

Mystikef

Exactly. Hermits focus on the mouse being better and ignore the keyboard as a crappy way to move in a 3d environment. I guess if it was a 2D game it would be ok, but not for 3D. And any attempt to tell them that is quickly dismissed as if it doesn't matter. But if you do the same about the mouse...it's all about how unfair autoaim is (even if it's not in use).

Perhaps it's because, despite your perception of it's faults, the WASD movement configuration has never been so bad developers have had to explicitly make allowances for it in their software.

The inaccuracy of the analogue stick compared to the mouse however, has been written into software in the forms of the auto aim.

If the WASD configuration is a problem comparible to the levels of the controller's aim, why don't we have auto-movement?

Exactly, good point. And I would also argue that the WASD keys, or since I'm a lefty, it's the arrow keys are near perfect for movement. People that don't have the slightest clue what they are doing on a PC would say such a thing like "the keyboard is terrible...". The mouse is way more precise, and THAT is what drives the movement keys. Wherever I point my headlook, that is where I move, forward, backward, and strafe, that is THE ONLY directions you need, as the mouse provides the angle you turn. Gamepad only users(99% Console Users) don't understand the mechanics of the K/M. It just seems alien to them.

Auto-movement? What the heck are you guys talking about? I hope you know that was an very bad comparison and a useless point. Auto-aim works becasue the computer can tell what you are aiming and firing at. How the heck is it supposed to know where you are trying to go to?

Anyway... Using the keyboard for movement is like using a D-pad on a controller. Except, the D-Pad is still better. An analog stick is a vast improvement, and it is useless to argue about this no matter what you prefer. 4 to 8 directions with 1 to 2 speed, using 2 to 4 fingers to manuever is never going to be as good as hundreds of speeds in hundreds of directions using 1 thumb to do it all.

You aren't an M/K user obviously. Your mouse is the driving direction, the arrow keys or wasd keys are just the engine. You can do a lot more with a M/K than you could ever do with a controller(Strafe circle jumpng? I don't think so, not with a controller you aren't! lol) . Heck , just turning around in an FPS with a controller is lame compared to M/K.

Like I said, console only gamers haven't a clue. There is a reason why PC Gamers choose to use a M/K over a controller when they have always had the option for both. I'm a PC gamer and a console gamer, I speak from both sides.

I PC game and console game both, but because of the weakness of the movement on a keyboard, I tend to like FPS on consoles. I use a mouse all day at work... don't need it to play games with it too.

I understand the concept of forward being whichever way the mouse is pointing. But with a controller, it does not matter which way you are looking. You can still move ANY direction, not 4 directions, not 8 directions, ANY direction. You "exclusive Keyboard" users do not get how handy it is for slipping around corners, manuevering objects, dsancing around in firefights, or turning and shooting without missing a step in the direction you are travelling [something that is impossible with a K/m - you zig-zag.]

I get that some of you REALLY LOVE k/m, and I do understand the mouse is more accurate... but you have to understand an analog stick is much more accurate than four buttons. I am amazed how stubborn some of you are. Spock would phaser you in a second if he heard the illogic you guys are trying to convey. You really think four buttons is more accurate than an analog stick with millions of different positions?

I can move in any direction I want using a M/K, just as easy as a controller, and with superior aim. You still haven't adressed my point, if a conroller is that much better, why aren't PC Gamers using it? Why are they using a M/K?  

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Mystikef

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

I disagree.  First, you are not always aiming and shooting, second of all, it is not any more sporadic than jumping and moving and switching 8 different directions.  You just have MORE control, to land more precisely, to turn corners more precisely, to spin around and shoot while continuing in a single direction, manuevering obstacles faster, etc.

I am not saying WASD sucks...  it doesn't.  I use it at times.  But there is no doubt that the enhanced movement of an analog stick is beneficial.  Just like there is no doubt a mouse is beneficial to aiming.  But...  you can get used to, and become quite adept at WASD, or aiming with a controller.  It really just depends on which you prefer, in the end.  I prefer controller, and you prefer K/m.  Maybe someday we can battle (with my auto-aim turned off) and settle this once and for all...  in a fun way, of course.  :)

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? mikasa

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Exactly an only being able to use a dpad or keyboard would suck in trying to run away (and not get shot).  Analog is definitely much better.  If it didn't make a difference why even have an analog stick for movement...the dpad would have sufficed.  dpad as stated by mystikef is about the same as keyboard (better but very close in function).  analog is way better than dpad for movement; therefore, it's even mo' better than keyboard.

You know the old If A>>B  and B>C then A >> C (and possibly A>>>C).  And never ever C==A

So you're retracting: "With the keys. Its not like joystick gives you a large lead over moving wherever you want. Its almost the exact same."? 

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="tramp"]Correct me if im wrong but WASD combined with mouse look = just as much movement as any analogue stick? Vandalvideo

Ok then how do you run in any direction while shooting and aiming in any other direction?

You sure like using absolutes with caveats...which makes youre statement meaningless.
What the heck is ALMOST the Exact same?  It's either the same or it isn't.  I can do that to...using a controller allows you to move the cursor whereever you want it, it's almost exactly the same as using a mouse.  (Of course the Almost is that it's not as acurate).

Exactly an only being able to use a dpad or keyboard would suck in trying to run away (and not get shot).  Analog is definitely much better.  If it didn't make a difference why even have an analog stick for movement...the dpad would have sufficed.  dpad as stated by mystikef is about the same as keyboard (better but very close in function).  analog is way better than dpad for movement; therefore, it's even mo' better than keyboard.

You know the old If A>>B  and B>C then A >> C (and possibly A>>>C).  And never ever C==A

So you're retracting: "With the keys. Its not like joystick gives you a large lead over moving wherever you want. Its almost the exact same."? 

Whatever, you keep on telling yourself that...I'm sure you'll convince yourself of it soon enough.  Although everyone else will be laughing at you.

Let's look at game mechanics.

Is it quicker to turn around with a m/k setup or controller? Answer: m/K

Is it easier using headlook with a m/k or controller? Answer: m/k due to precision aiming.

Since PC Gamers have the option between Controller and M/K, what do they consider the best overall control type? Answer: M/K.  

Why is auto aim implemented into console FPS but not PC Games (With the newly expection of H2 and Shadowrun)? Answer: Controller is at a disadvantage. Been proven with Quake 3 arena on Dreamcast vs. PC Gamers.

Why has the controller been given autoaim/sticky aim in the recent games Halo2 and Shadowrun? Answer: To balance the playing field with M/K setups. 

As someone who's gamed on pads just about their whole life, I can tell tell you for a fact that I have performed headshots as accurately and as quickly as could possibly be done on any input device.  Auto-aim or no, if the game is designed to be balanced around both kb/m and controller, the end result in playing is nearly the same.  I don't understand how Hermits can even move around by using keys, I certainly can't.  That part in HL2 where you have to skirt the rooftops took me like 10 tries on PC and only one on Xbox.  I'd take a gamepad over m/kb anyday.

THETRUEDOZAH

i can tell you for a fact that you have never beat someone on a m/kb with your little controller, so maybe you are more used to the controls, but that doesnt mean a thing when you are facing someone who is more used to m/kb

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mystikef: Back to reality, the improvement of a joystick for movements is really negligable in a FPS enviroment. People don't sit there and think, "I need to run 33.3 degrees." They say, "I want to move to my up and left." This can easily be achieved with WASD. In practice, the added directions isn't going to make all the difference in the world.Vandalvideo

I never said it makes all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference.  If you have ANY FPS controller user switch to the D-pad and then play against people using the analog stick..  there will be a noticable difference in agility and movement accuracy.  If it is the difference between slipping around a corner and gewtting stuck on a corner...  It could cost you a kill, or cause you to get killed.  That is enough to make a difference.  The Keyboard for movement is a step BEHIND the D-Pad, and no controller user would EVER use the D-pad for movement.  It is inferior, and despite your liking of WASD, the Keyboard is NOT ideal for movement.  IT can and will make a difference in ANY FPS.  I can't even believe you are acting like agility and manueverability aren't important in FPS... do you even play any FPS?

I disagree.  First, you are not always aiming and shooting, second of all, it is not any more sporadic than jumping and moving and switching 8 different directions.  You just have MORE control, to land more precisely, to turn corners more precisely, to spin around and shoot while continuing in a single direction, manuevering obstacles faster, etc.

I am not saying WASD sucks...  it doesn't.  I use it at times.  But there is no doubt that the enhanced movement of an analog stick is beneficial.  Just like there is no doubt a mouse is beneficial to aiming.  But...  you can get used to, and become quite adept at WASD, or aiming with a controller.  It really just depends on which you prefer, in the end.  I prefer controller, and you prefer K/m.  Maybe someday we can battle (with my auto-aim turned off) and settle this once and for all...  in a fun way, of course.  :)

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. 

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

So what if the game institutes a mechanic where moving arbitrarily at speed is an advantage? For example, a minefield or a winding path with a sheer drop. And what if you're in the middle of a firefight while doing this, so you have to move at speed while aiming and shooting in another arbitary direction?

People say dual analog is too difficult. How is it more difficult than training to use M/K?

Thing is, most FPS's are in enclosed or limited areas where simple movements are OK. But UT3 proposes large areas.

PS. To whoever answered me with the sniper rifle, etc...--a sniper rifle won't kill a vehicle in one shot, a rocket is slow enough to dodge (especially if you're hovering), and you can shoot the Redeemer. 

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Mystikef

A controller is probably better for vehicles, whereas it's not for aiming.

That's how I see it.

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Vandalvideo

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Mystikef

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

Mikasa: Why not think up a valid counter-arguement then? I explained in detail why analog is more of a hinderance, and how even with added range of motion, its not like it gives you more control. So the statement: "Joysticks don't give you a huge lead over WASD." Still stands.Vandalvideo

Sure in your mind I'm sure it still stands, but in other's they are still laughing that you think 4 directinso is greater than analog movement.  Here's the counter...why did they even make an analog if they had a dpad with 8 directions?  Which according to you is more then enough for movement?  When you find the answer to that you'll have your answer to why 4 directions is even worse.

Uh, my motion isnt restricted at all with KBM....maybe because I don't use the outdated WASD :)

Using a controller feels like I'm wearing cement boots, or rather, playing any console FPS :P 

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Vandalvideo

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Mystikef

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on.