On the subject of UT3 and KB&M vs. Controller.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mikasa: Why not think up a valid counter-arguement then? I explained in detail why analog is more of a hinderance, and how even with added range of motion, its not like it gives you more control. So the statement: "Joysticks don't give you a huge lead over WASD." Still stands.mikasa

Sure in your mind I'm sure it still stands, but in other's they are still laughing that you think 4 directinso is greater than analog movement.  Here's the counter...why did they even make an analog if they had a dpad with 8 directions?  Which according to you is more then enough for movement?  When you find the answer to that you'll have your answer to why 4 directions is even worse.

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

Vandalvideo

It's a lost cause.  He knows he lost, but doesn't want to admit it.  He won't even admit windows was declared a monopoly by the courts even when provided a link and a quote from the court.  There's just no getting through to him.  I'd accuse him of being 12, but that would get my post pulled.

[QUOTE="mikasa"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Mikasa: Why not think up a valid counter-arguement then? I explained in detail why analog is more of a hinderance, and how even with added range of motion, its not like it gives you more control. So the statement: "Joysticks don't give you a huge lead over WASD." Still stands.Vandalvideo

Sure in your mind I'm sure it still stands, but in other's they are still laughing that you think 4 directinso is greater than analog movement.  Here's the counter...why did they even make an analog if they had a dpad with 8 directions?  Which according to you is more then enough for movement?  When you find the answer to that you'll have your answer to why 4 directions is even worse.

That's like asking how accurately can someone aim...as long as they are just pointing in a direction.  How ever accurate you can aim is how much you can move.  Just because you're stuck wtih wasd and only truly understand it as that's what you play (and that's fine for you), but it doesn't mean other's don't like the freedom to move several directions while aiming and shooting in another direction.

Oh, I know what happened, you play controller with auto-look on so that you always move in the dirction you're looking.  It's a setting you can turn of and on and is there for noobs that are used to wasd.  Now I get it, you're just inexperienced with controllers.  That's the only thing that could explain you're inability to understand the freedom of movement the analog stick gives you.  If you need help turning that feature off let me know.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

mikasa

It's a lost cause.  He knows he lost, but doesn't want to admit it.  He won't even admit windows was declared a monopoly by the courts even when provided a link and a quote from the court.  There's just no getting through to him.  I'd accuse him of being 12, but that would get my post pulled.

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Vandalvideo

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

dude... enough already.  I already proved it with the jumping to the rock.  It's a precise movement that is much easier with a controller.  It is also extremely difficult to make such a jump while shooting with a M/K, as every turn of the mouse changes movement direction.  With two thumbsticks, you can make subtle adjustments to counter any firing while moving.

There are thousands of examples like that one that are difficult to describe in words... that example was the easiest to describe AND it is correct.  Here's another.  You are moving from point A to pint B out in the open.  You need to constantly look left and right to make sure there are no enemies.  You with me so far?  The controllers subtle adjustments can keep you moving in an EXACT straight line the entire time, even though you are looking in every possible direction to spot enemies.  with WASD, you will zig zag and curve while going from point A to point B whenever you look around with the mouse because of no subtle adjustments.  This means you are out of cover longer, and may miss your cover because you aren't looking where you are going and cannot keep an exact straight line.  InANY FPS I have ever played, the longer you are out of cover, the more likely you are to get killed.  ONE KILL can make a difference between winning and losing and I have just given TWO accurate examples of how WASD can make getting killed more likely.

I know this is fruitless.  I think you lack the ability to see anyone else's point.  Since I have already agreed with you on the mouse accuracy...  I know that I do not suffer from the same disability...  thank god.

[QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

Vandalvideo

It's a lost cause.  He knows he lost, but doesn't want to admit it.  He won't even admit windows was declared a monopoly by the courts even when provided a link and a quote from the court.  There's just no getting through to him.  I'd accuse him of being 12, but that would get my post pulled.

OMG, not again!  You're still denying it.  Hoping to draw attention away from your assertion that 8 directions is all you need.  Kind of like Bill Gates saying "64K is all you'll ever need".

BTW: You know what the courts did before they could rule Microsoft had an illegal tie-in to the browser?  They had to declare them a monopoly in the OS.  Yes, you just can't sue someone by saying they are a monopoly...you have to prove they are monopoly first.  And then the tie-ins become illegal.  Look at apple.  They can tie-in whatever they want in their OS and Computers because they only make a small amount of the market.  But Windows was declared a monopoly becasue they had a lion share.  Funny thing is apple may end up getting sued over IPOD as a monopoly with illegal tie-ins and contrcts.  But let's not go there.  I'm not saying apple would win or lose just that companies and courts are looking at them as they did Microsoft with the OS.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="mikasa"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

I am glad you replied.  You proved my point for me.  with the M/K you need to look in a particular direction to have full movement.  With a thumbstick, you have full movement REGARDLESS of where you are looking.

This, of course, means you have 100% full movement even while shooting at an enemy in ANY direction.  But with the K/M...  if you have to look in a particular direction for any reason, especially aiming, you lose movement abilities.

Great.  Argument over.  We can move on. 

mikasa

It's a lost cause.  He knows he lost, but doesn't want to admit it.  He won't even admit windows was declared a monopoly by the courts even when provided a link and a quote from the court.  There's just no getting through to him.  I'd accuse him of being 12, but that would get my post pulled.

OMG, not again!  You're still denying it.  Hoping to draw attention away from your assertion that 8 directions is all you need.  Kind of like Bill Gates saying "64K is all you'll ever need".

BTW: You know what the courts did before they could rule Microsoft had an illegal tie-in to the browser?  They had to declare them a monopoly in the OS.  Yes, you just can't sue someone by saying they are a monopoly...you have to prove they are monopoly first.  And then the tie-ins become illegal.  Look at apple.  They can tie-in whatever they want in their OS and Computers because they only make a small amount of the market.  But Windows was declared a monopoly becasue they had a lion share.  Funny thing is apple may end up getting sued over IPOD as a monopoly with illegal tie-ins and contrcts.  But let's not go there.  I'm not saying apple would win or lose just that companies and courts are looking at them as they did Microsoft with the OS.

dude... enough already.  I already proved it with the jumping to the rock.  It's a precise movement that is much easier with a controller.  It is also extremely difficult to make such a jump while shooting with a M/K, as every turn of the mouse changes movement direction.  With two thumbsticks, you can make subtle adjustments to counter any firing while moving.There are thousands of examples like that one that are difficult to describe in words... that example was the easiest to describe AND it is correct.  Here's another.  You are moving from point A to pint B out in the open.  You need to constantly look left and right to make sure there are no enemies.  You with me so far?  The controllers subtle adjustments can keep you moving in an EXACT straight line the entire time, even though you are looking in every possible direction to spot enemies.  with WASD, you will zig zag and curve while going from point A to point B whenever you look around with the mouse because of no subtle adjustments.  This means you are out of cover longer, and may miss your cover because you aren't looking where you are going and cannot keep an exact straight line.  InANY FPS I have ever played, the longer you are out of cover, the more likely you are to get killed.  ONE KILL can make a difference between winning and losing and I have just given TWO accurate examples of how WASD can make getting killed more likely.I know this is fruitless.  I think you lack the ability to see anyone else's point.  Since I have already agreed with you on the mouse accuracy...  I know that I do not suffer from the same disability...  thank god.Mystikef

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]dude... enough already.  I already proved it with the jumping to the rock.  It's a precise movement that is much easier with a controller.  It is also extremely difficult to make such a jump while shooting with a M/K, as every turn of the mouse changes movement direction.  With two thumbsticks, you can make subtle adjustments to counter any firing while moving.There are thousands of examples like that one that are difficult to describe in words... that example was the easiest to describe AND it is correct.  Here's another.  You are moving from point A to pint B out in the open.  You need to constantly look left and right to make sure there are no enemies.  You with me so far?  The controllers subtle adjustments can keep you moving in an EXACT straight line the entire time, even though you are looking in every possible direction to spot enemies.  with WASD, you will zig zag and curve while going from point A to point B whenever you look around with the mouse because of no subtle adjustments.  This means you are out of cover longer, and may miss your cover because you aren't looking where you are going and cannot keep an exact straight line.  InANY FPS I have ever played, the longer you are out of cover, the more likely you are to get killed.  ONE KILL can make a difference between winning and losing and I have just given TWO accurate examples of how WASD can make getting killed more likely.I know this is fruitless.  I think you lack the ability to see anyone else's point.  Since I have already agreed with you on the mouse accuracy...  I know that I do not suffer from the same disability...  thank god.Vandalvideo

You aren't even worth arguing with.  Facts don't matter to you.  Examples don't matter t you.  You are one of the worst debaters I have ever encountered in SW, which is sad, because other than completely ignoring evidence contrary to your side of the argument..  you seem like you might be at least partially intelligent.

Of course those same moves can be accomplished with a m/k...  just not as accurately and I HAVE PROVEN THAT and that was my point.  You can fire a weapon with a controller...  just not as accurately.  Wasn't that the point of a mouse being better?  Accuracy?  It wasn't about whether it could be done or not.

You have not given one example or fact to support your side of things.  You just keep saying "I am right because it is what I think."  Children argue that same way.  I have provided numerical facts, as well as real examples.  You have provided squat.  Later.

It's PC gamers like you that make me not want to be a PC gamer. I hope the world knows there are PC gamers like me, and others, who aren't stubborn and closed minded and so obviously wrong

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]dude... enough already.  I already proved it with the jumping to the rock.  It's a precise movement that is much easier with a controller.  It is also extremely difficult to make such a jump while shooting with a M/K, as every turn of the mouse changes movement direction.  With two thumbsticks, you can make subtle adjustments to counter any firing while moving.There are thousands of examples like that one that are difficult to describe in words... that example was the easiest to describe AND it is correct.  Here's another.  You are moving from point A to pint B out in the open.  You need to constantly look left and right to make sure there are no enemies.  You with me so far?  The controllers subtle adjustments can keep you moving in an EXACT straight line the entire time, even though you are looking in every possible direction to spot enemies.  with WASD, you will zig zag and curve while going from point A to point B whenever you look around with the mouse because of no subtle adjustments.  This means you are out of cover longer, and may miss your cover because you aren't looking where you are going and cannot keep an exact straight line.  InANY FPS I have ever played, the longer you are out of cover, the more likely you are to get killed.  ONE KILL can make a difference between winning and losing and I have just given TWO accurate examples of how WASD can make getting killed more likely.I know this is fruitless.  I think you lack the ability to see anyone else's point.  Since I have already agreed with you on the mouse accuracy...  I know that I do not suffer from the same disability...  thank god.Mystikef

You aren't even worth arguing with.  Facts don't matter to you.  Examples don't matter t you.  You are one of the worst debaters I have ever encountered in SW, which is sad, because other than completely ignoring evidence contrary to your side of the argument..  you seem like you might be at least partially intelligent.

Of course those same moves can be accomplished with a m/k...  just not as accurately and I HAVE PROVEN THAT and that was my point.  You can fire a weapon with a controller...  just not as accurately.  Wasn't that the point of a mouse being better?  Accuracy?  It wasn't about whether it could be done or not.

You have not given one example or fact to support your side of things.  You just keep saying "I am right because it is what I think."  Children argue that same way.  I have provided numerical facts, as well as real examples.  You have provided squat.  Later.

It's PC gamers like you that make me not want to be a PC gamer. I hope the world knows there are PC gamers like me, and others, who aren't stubborn and closed minded and so obviously wrong

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]dude... enough already.  I already proved it with the jumping to the rock.  It's a precise movement that is much easier with a controller.  It is also extremely difficult to make such a jump while shooting with a M/K, as every turn of the mouse changes movement direction.  With two thumbsticks, you can make subtle adjustments to counter any firing while moving.There are thousands of examples like that one that are difficult to describe in words... that example was the easiest to describe AND it is correct.  Here's another.  You are moving from point A to pint B out in the open.  You need to constantly look left and right to make sure there are no enemies.  You with me so far?  The controllers subtle adjustments can keep you moving in an EXACT straight line the entire time, even though you are looking in every possible direction to spot enemies.  with WASD, you will zig zag and curve while going from point A to point B whenever you look around with the mouse because of no subtle adjustments.  This means you are out of cover longer, and may miss your cover because you aren't looking where you are going and cannot keep an exact straight line.  InANY FPS I have ever played, the longer you are out of cover, the more likely you are to get killed.  ONE KILL can make a difference between winning and losing and I have just given TWO accurate examples of how WASD can make getting killed more likely.I know this is fruitless.  I think you lack the ability to see anyone else's point.  Since I have already agreed with you on the mouse accuracy...  I know that I do not suffer from the same disability...  thank god.Vandalvideo

You aren't even worth arguing with.  Facts don't matter to you.  Examples don't matter t you.  You are one of the worst debaters I have ever encountered in SW, which is sad, because other than completely ignoring evidence contrary to your side of the argument..  you seem like you might be at least partially intelligent.

Of course those same moves can be accomplished with a m/k...  just not as accurately and I HAVE PROVEN THAT and that was my point.  You can fire a weapon with a controller...  just not as accurately.  Wasn't that the point of a mouse being better?  Accuracy?  It wasn't about whether it could be done or not.

You have not given one example or fact to support your side of things.  You just keep saying "I am right because it is what I think."  Children argue that same way.  I have provided numerical facts, as well as real examples.  You have provided squat.  Later.

It's PC gamers like you that make me not want to be a PC gamer. I hope the world knows there are PC gamers like me, and others, who aren't stubborn and closed minded and so obviously wrong

Actually...  that was the first time you stated it.  But thank you.  I felt like I was arguing with a brick-wall.

Now all we are debating is our OPINIONS on how much of a difference it makes...  and we are both allowed to have differing opinions. I do think it makes more of a difference than you might think...  but that is MY opinion.  I think in my two examples it shows how you could end up being out of cover longer, or possibly miss a critical jump because you have to return fire.  But in 90% of situations...  you are right that it would make little difference.  But sometimes...  it is those little moments that mean the difference between life and death...  and winning or losing.

i wanna jump in. wasd pwns. seeing as ut requires you to MOVE AT FULL SPEED AT ALL TIMES, kb would be better than a stick.

it takes a few miliseconds to move an analog stick all the way forward, in those few miliseconds your character goes from slow,to a lilttle faster, to fastest.............with a keyboard, you are always moving at your fastest speed. so controller is auctually a disadvantage there. it takes longer to push a stick forward and achieve maxium speed than it does to push down a button.

also, good luck wall dodging with a stick.

i wanna jump in. wasd pwns. seeing as ut requires you to MOVE AT FULL SPEED AT ALL TIMES, kb would be better than a stick.

it takes a few miliseconds to move an analog stick all the way forward, in those few miliseconds your character goes from slow,to a lilttle faster, to fastest.............with a keyboard, you are always moving at your fastest speed. so controller is auctually a disadvantage there. it takes longer to push a stick forward and achieve maxium speed than it does to push down a button.

also, good luck wall dodging with a stick.

out0v0rder

For those quick burst requirements I drop down to the d-pad. LOL!

omgru4realout0v0rder

It was a joke.

[QUOTE="out0v0rder"]omgru4realmikasa

It was a joke.

orly?

Who the HELL is the sad Counter-Strike fanboy that revived this thread. it ended fine! LEAVE IT DEAD.

Who the HELL is the sad Counter-Strike fanboy that revived this thread. it ended fine! LEAVE IT DEAD.

A-LEGEND

it didnt end fine, and you do realize that by posting in this thread you revived it OK BUDDY!!!!

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

Mystikef

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

PS. - The only reason this discussion has come up is because of Shadowrun. Fasa had to "tweak" the controller in order to make it fair, and slow down the mouse in order to make it "fair". MS made sure Halo 2 got the same treatment as well, to satisfy the 360 users that are using GFW for achievements. If movement is so much better on controller, there would be no reason to tweak the controller(autoaim) to make if fair. Think about it.

Also, ask yourself why Auto-aim and lousier AI is put into console FPS? If movement is so important, ask yourself why console FPS runs at a much much slower pace. All your examples are bogus for one reason, you only have two hands. One hand for the left stick, and one hand for the right stick AND buttons. With a keyboard, it's much more versatile, but not as comfortable. Your hand has access to a lot more keys, plus you have the option to map them as seen fit. A keyboard player has all five fingers to use, whereas a controller user has one thumb. Dispute that, just try. A controller is limited by the number of buttons and you can either have access to the buttons or thumbstick, not both.

The list goes on and on, but you now get the picture.

TWO THINGS:

1. i already mentioned that KB&M is more accurate (but moot in UT3)

2. stop making up excuses. like "it was gimped" or "auto aim"

A-LEGEND

why did you even bother making this thread then? it's not impossible that they improved the controller aiming with auto aim. 

i wanna jump in. wasd pwns. seeing as ut requires you to MOVE AT FULL SPEED AT ALL TIMES, kb would be better than a stick.

it takes a few miliseconds to move an analog stick all the way forward, in those few miliseconds your character goes from slow,to a lilttle faster, to fastest.............with a keyboard, you are always moving at your fastest speed. so controller is auctually a disadvantage there. it takes longer to push a stick forward and achieve maxium speed than it does to push down a button.

also, good luck wall dodging with a stick.

out0v0rder

also, with KB&M your sweat never gets in the way :P 

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

mismajor99

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad  over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.  

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

Great... another closed minded PC gamer making every other PC gamer look bad. :roll:

The EXAMPLES I gave are correct.  The thumbstick gives more accuracy for momevent.  It is completely illogiccal to think 4 or 8 directions of movement at two speeds (maximum) can somehow be equally as accurate as complete omnidirectional movement at any speed.  Denying that will just make you look foolish.

I know some PC gamers like to think that FPS is their precious little genre, but FPS's play great on consoles as well.

As for your comment about "Every FPS contest using K/M" well...  you are correct if it is a PC contest.  But if you check the rules I think you will find that you are nNOT ALLOWED to use a controller in those contests... therefore, every serious PC gamer MUST use a K/M in practice and for these contests.  It has nothing to do with the K/M being better.  Even though, many PC gamers think it is.

You are welcome to your opinion on what "you prefer" but don't try an tell anyone with a tad bit of smarts that 8 directions is as accurate as infinite directions, nor that infinite different speeds is less accurate than 1 or 2 speeds.  It's ridiculous, and you are owning yourself everytime say it.  Even second graders can do that simple math. How much it affects gameplay might be up for discussion, but the accuracy is all in the numbers.  The examples I gave show how I think it affects gameplay, and my examples are technically correct.

1. have you ever seen a pro UT player play?

2. Have you ever held a mouse in your hand?

In UT you need to be VERY fast in your aiming because the playes move so fast, jump everywhere etc... Anyone who thinks a controller can beas "fast" as a mouse is retarded. for casual players it might not matter but when you start getting REALLY good at the game you'll the the advantage of having a mouse over a controller. I have played every console Unreal game and no it never close to be as "easy" as with a mouse, I don't see why it would be any different this case.

Mystikef,
The only reason this discussion has come up is because of Shadowrun. Fasa had to "tweak" the controller in order to make it fair, and slow down the mouse in order to make it "fair". MS made sure Halo 2 got the same treatment as well, to satisfy the 360 users that are using GFW for achievements. If movement is so much better on controller, there would be no reason to tweak the controller(autoaim) to make if fair. Think about it.

Also, ask yourself why Auto-aim and lousier AI is put into console FPS? If movement is so important, ask yourself why console FPS runs at a much much slower pace. All your examples are bogus for one reason, you only have two hands. One hand for the left stick, and one hand for the right stick AND buttons. With a keyboard, it's much more versatile, but not as comfortable. Your hand has access to a lot more keys, plus you have the option to map them as seen fit. A keyboard player has all five fingers to use, whereas a controller user has one thumb. Dispute that, just try. A controller is limited by the number of buttons and you can either have access to the buttons or thumbstick, not both.

The list goes on and on, but you now get the picture.

mismajor99

I have already agreed that aiming is easier with a mouse...  a longggg time ago.

Movement IS more accurate with a thumbstick.  You can move ANY direction while looking in ANY direction and you can subtly change direction to account for aiming and firing.  You do not have that subtle ability with K/M, which means if you are turning and looking around, or firing at someone, you can no longer move in a perfectly straight line, which means it will take longer to get where you are going. You can make the subtle adjustments to counter looking around with a thumbstick, which means you can move in a straight line.  You can also jump or  to ANYTHING ANYWHERE just by pushing the stick toward that object.  You do not have to switch from key-to-key to make adjustments, which I know you do with a keyboard, as I use one on occasion too for gaming.  I am just not a closed minded PC gamer that thinks EVERYTHING on a PC is better simply because it is on a PC.  You have many more movement possibilities with a thumbstic - directional and with speed.  How can any of you with any sense of logic think that does not give you more accurate movement?

[QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

Mystikef

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

Great... another closed minded PC gamer making every other PC gamer look bad. :roll:

The EXAMPLES I gave are correct. The thumbstick gives more accuracy for momevent. It is completely illogiccal to think 4 or 8 directions of movement at two speeds (maximum) can somehow be equally as accurate as complete omnidirectional movement at any speed. Denying that will just make you look foolish.

I know some PC gamers like to think that FPS is their precious little genre, but FPS's play great on consoles as well.

As for your comment about "Every FPS contest using K/M" well... you are correct if it is a PC contest. But if you check the rules I think you will find that you are nNOT ALLOWED to use a controller in those contests... therefore, every serious PC gamer MUST use a K/M in practice and for these contests. It has nothing to do with the K/M being better. Even though, many PC gamers think it is.

You are welcome to your opinion on what "you prefer" but don't try an tell anyone with a tad bit of smarts that 8 directions is as accurate as infinite directions, nor that infinite different speeds is less accurate than 1 or 2 speeds. It's ridiculous, and you are owning yourself everytime say it. Even second graders can do that simple math. How much it affects gameplay might be up for discussion, but the accuracy is all in the numbers. The examples I gave show how I think it affects gameplay, and my examples are technically correct.

Your points are mute as far as FPS's go. The conroller is definately better for certain genres, but not FPS. I never said you can't play FPS on console or with a controller, they are just better on PC with M/K. If you don't have a gaming PC, which I suspect to be the case, then I can see why you feel this way. I've always had a rig, plus every single console. I love consoles, and PC Gaming. I speak only from experience as a 29 year old. All of my friends, even the most hardcore console users, all admit that the M/K setup is the most ideal for FPS, although they prefer to play them on console. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But, I do have a problem when people try to say that the controller is better for FPS, this just isn't true. Just look at the games and it will tell you a whole lot. FPS games on PC are much different than on console. Console AI is not nearly as smart, it's slower paced, it includes autoaim and sticky aim. Why you ask? Because it is neccessary in order to have a more cohesive experience. Plain and simple. Just look at FASA. They had to tweak the controller and slow the mouse down in order to level the playing field. That should tell you something right there.

BTW, 8 directions is all you need for FPS, but in other genres it's different. The mouse points in the direction where you want to go, that is much more precise than anyting a thumb stick can do(Not to mention headlook which is another plus for a mouse). And don't try and tell me that you can run look and shoot at the same time** as fast as a M/K user**, as you only have two hands(**Two Thumbs and an index finger)**. Get over it already.

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]

Mystikef,
The only reason this discussion has come up is because of Shadowrun. Fasa had to "tweak" the controller in order to make it fair, and slow down the mouse in order to make it "fair". MS made sure Halo 2 got the same treatment as well, to satisfy the 360 users that are using GFW for achievements. If movement is so much better on controller, there would be no reason to tweak the controller(autoaim) to make if fair. Think about it.

Also, ask yourself why Auto-aim and lousier AI is put into console FPS? If movement is so important, ask yourself why console FPS runs at a much much slower pace. All your examples are bogus for one reason, you only have two hands. One hand for the left stick, and one hand for the right stick AND buttons. With a keyboard, it's much more versatile, but not as comfortable. Your hand has access to a lot more keys, plus you have the option to map them as seen fit. A keyboard player has all five fingers to use, whereas a controller user has one thumb. Dispute that, just try. A controller is limited by the number of buttons and you can either have access to the buttons or thumbstick, not both.

The list goes on and on, but you now get the picture.

Mystikef

I have already agreed that aiming is easier with a mouse... a longggg time ago.

Movement IS more accurate with a thumbstick. You can move ANY direction while looking in ANY direction and you can subtly change direction to account for aiming and firing. You do not have that subtle ability with K/M, which means if you are turning and looking around, or firing at someone, you can no longer move in a perfectly straight line, which means it will take longer to get where you are going. You can make the subtle adjustments to counter looking around with a thumbstick, which means you can move in a straight line. You can also jump or to ANYTHING ANYWHERE just by pushing the stick toward that object. You do not have to switch from key-to-key to make adjustments, which I know you do with a keyboard, as I use one on occasion too for gaming. I am just not a closed minded PC gamer that thinks EVERYTHING on a PC is better simply because it is on a PC. You have many more movement possibilities with a thumbstic - directional and with speed. How can any of you with any sense of logic think that does not give you more accurate movement?

That's great for a lot of genres, but not FPS.Like vandal has stated, it's marginal. What's important to movement in FPS is HEADLOOK. That's it. On a keyboard you have 5 fingers for buttons at any given time, plus the ability to map them according to your liking. With a controller, you have two thumbs **and an index finger**. Overall, which is more versatile?

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

mismajor99

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

Great... another closed minded PC gamer making every other PC gamer look bad. :roll:

The EXAMPLES I gave are correct. The thumbstick gives more accuracy for momevent. It is completely illogiccal to think 4 or 8 directions of movement at two speeds (maximum) can somehow be equally as accurate as complete omnidirectional movement at any speed. Denying that will just make you look foolish.

I know some PC gamers like to think that FPS is their precious little genre, but FPS's play great on consoles as well.

As for your comment about "Every FPS contest using K/M" well... you are correct if it is a PC contest. But if you check the rules I think you will find that you are nNOT ALLOWED to use a controller in those contests... therefore, every serious PC gamer MUST use a K/M in practice and for these contests. It has nothing to do with the K/M being better. Even though, many PC gamers think it is.

You are welcome to your opinion on what "you prefer" but don't try an tell anyone with a tad bit of smarts that 8 directions is as accurate as infinite directions, nor that infinite different speeds is less accurate than 1 or 2 speeds. It's ridiculous, and you are owning yourself everytime say it. Even second graders can do that simple math. How much it affects gameplay might be up for discussion, but the accuracy is all in the numbers. The examples I gave show how I think it affects gameplay, and my examples are technically correct.

Your points are mute as far as FPS's go. The conroller is definately better for certain genres, but not FPS. I never said you can't play FPS on console or with a controller, they are just better on PC with M/K. If you don't have a gaming PC, which I suspect to be the case, then I can see why you feel this way. I've always had a rig, plus every single console. I love consoles, and PC Gaming. I speak only from experience as a 29 year old. All of my friends, even the most hardcore console users, all admit that the M/K setup is the most ideal for FPS, although they prefer to play them on console. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But, I do have a problem when people try to say that the controller is better for FPS, this just isn't true. Just look at the games and it will tell you a whole lot.  FPS games on PC are much different than on console. Console AI is not nearly as smart, it's slower paced, it includes autoaim and sticky aim. Why you ask? Because it is neccessary in order to have a more cohesive experience. Plain and simple. Just look at FASA. They had to tweak the controller and slow the mouse down in order to level the playing field. That should tell you something right there.

BTW, 8 directions is all you need for FPS, but in other genres it's different. The mouse points in the direction where you want to go, that is much more precise than anyting a thumb stick can do(Not to mention headlook which is another plus for a mouse). And don't try and tell me that you can run look and shoot at the same time, as you only have two hands. Get over it already.

I am not and have not argued that controllers are better for FPS.  I have been simply arguing that movement is better - and no 8 directions is not enough.

It is so easy to move one direction while shooting in another with a controller that I can't even believe you said it isn't.  Not only is it easy, but if you are good with a controller, you can run in a perfectly straight line while turning and shooting in ANY direction.  THAT is the thumbstick advantage - you can make an EXACT adjustment to counter any turn in aiming/looking.  Does it make it better than M/K overall?  No.  I am not saying that.  But you CANNOT keep moving North, let's say, in a perfectly straight line while shooting SSW with a K/M.  You would need 16 directions to do that. Besides jumping to an object...  you know that you have to switch keys and make adjustments when you are looking or firing at someone.  You don't need to with a controller.  You push towards where you are jumping and that is exactly the direction you go.  No need for adjustments.

I actually find it funny that so many of you take insult by the fact that a controller MIGHT be better at ONE THING where FPSs are concerned.  Even though the numbers PROVE IT.  The argument "8 directions is enough" would be like me saying pixel-point accuracy is not needed for aiming with a mouse...  an area of 9 pixels is "enough."  That's probably what the accuracy of a controller is, relative.  So is that fine too?

That's great for a lot of genres, but not FPS.Like vandal has stated, it's marginal. What's important to movement in FPS is HEADLOOK. That's it. On a keyboard you have 5 fingers for buttons at any given time, plus the ability to map them according to your liking. With a controller, you have two thumbs **and an index finger**. Overall, which is more versatile? mismajor99

Stop talking about all the other keys and focus on movement.... as that is all I have been talking about.  Four keys compared to an omnidirectional thumbstick with near-infinite number of speeds.  Besides... a thumbstick only needs one thumb.

If I felt like taking the time to draw you guys a map, and if you were even remotely willing to think outside of the box, you would get it.

Let me try again with words:

Your are running North and an enemy jumps out directly in front of you but a ways away.  A firefight starts.

You realise that a Rocket Launcher is directly to your West.  You straffe left to go get it while firing at the guy that is North of you.  As you straffe West....  your body has to turn back to shoot at the guy who is now North and somewhat East of you.  Now your "A" key is no longer taking you directly West, but slightly North as well.  You are no longer heading towards the Rocket launcher.  So you adjust by hitting the "S"key to head back South for a moment before finally heading West again and getting the Rocket Launcher. (obviously 8 directions would help this out a little compared to four)

Witha thumbstick, you can make subtle adjustments the entire way and always stay heading directly West, despite that you have to keep changing angles to shoot at the jerk that is shooting at you.  You get to where you are going faster (straight line is the fastest) get the rocket launcher quicker, and take that jerk down a full .4 seconds earlier.  And you KNOW .4 seconds can make a difference.

I think you will all admit using 8 directions is better than four, right?  Well why isn't 16 better?  Or 32?  Or infinite?  Why is 8 the magic number?  Why is two speeds perfect?  Why not 3 speeds?  Why not 5?  Why not infinite?

Just give me some LOGIC why 8 directions is BETTER than infinite.  What is the advantage?  Someone answer that. 

ANOTHER TWO THINGS.

1. what do RTS's have to do with anything. this is UT3. we already know KB&M is better for RTS

2. saying i bet i can kill you with KB&M doesnt show that your buff, and second stop trying to prove to yourself that the author of the article is lying about the guy who kicked everybody's but with the controller. i dont even know why this is an argument. its just information. not that the controller is better but that they are the same FOR UT3. (a game that doesnt use insane quick acuracy)

A-LEGEND

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]That's great for a lot of genres, but not FPS.Like vandal has stated, it's marginal. What's important to movement in FPS is HEADLOOK. That's it. On a keyboard you have 5 fingers for buttons at any given time, plus the ability to map them according to your liking. With a controller, you have two thumbs **and an index finger**. Overall, which is more versatile? Mystikef

Stop talking about all the other keys and focus on movement.... as that is all I have been talking about.  Four keys compared to an omnidirectional thumbstick with near-infinite number of speeds.  Besides... a thumbstick only needs one thumb.

If I felt like taking the time to draw you guys a map, and if you were even remotely willing to think outside of the box, you would get it.

Let me try again with words:

Your are running North and an enemy jumps out directly in front of you but a ways away.  A firefight starts.

You realise that a Rocket Launcher is directly to your West.  You straffe left to go get it while firing at the guy that is North of you.  As you straffe West....  your body has to turn back to shoot at the guy who is now North and somewhat East of you.  Now your "A" key is no longer taking you directly West, but slightly North as well.  You are no longer heading towards the Rocket launcher.  So you adjust by hitting the "S"key to head back South for a moment before finally heading West again and getting the Rocket Launcher. (obviously 8 directions would help this out a little compared to four)

Witha thumbstick, you can make subtle adjustments the entire way and always stay heading directly West, despite that you have to keep changing angles to shoot at the jerk that is shooting at you.  You get to where you are going faster (straight line is the fastest) get the rocket launcher quicker, and take that jerk down a full .4 seconds earlier.  And you KNOW .4 seconds can make a difference.

I think you will all admit using 8 directions is better than four, right?  Well why isn't 16 better?  Or 32?  Or infinite?  Why is 8 the magic number?  Why is two speeds perfect?  Why not 3 speeds?  Why not 5?  Why not infinite?

Just give me some LOGIC why 8 directions is BETTER than infinite.  What is the advantage?  Someone answer that. 

[QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

Mystikef

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

Great... another closed minded PC gamer making every other PC gamer look bad. :roll:

The EXAMPLES I gave are correct. The thumbstick gives more accuracy for momevent. It is completely illogiccal to think 4 or 8 directions of movement at two speeds (maximum) can somehow be equally as accurate as complete omnidirectional movement at any speed. Denying that will just make you look foolish.

I know some PC gamers like to think that FPS is their precious little genre, but FPS's play great on consoles as well.

As for your comment about "Every FPS contest using K/M" well... you are correct if it is a PC contest. But if you check the rules I think you will find that you are nNOT ALLOWED to use a controller in those contests... therefore, every serious PC gamer MUST use a K/M in practice and for these contests. It has nothing to do with the K/M being better. Even though, many PC gamers think it is.

You are welcome to your opinion on what "you prefer" but don't try an tell anyone with a tad bit of smarts that 8 directions is as accurate as infinite directions, nor that infinite different speeds is less accurate than 1 or 2 speeds. It's ridiculous, and you are owning yourself everytime say it. Even second graders can do that simple math. How much it affects gameplay might be up for discussion, but the accuracy is all in the numbers. The examples I gave show how I think it affects gameplay, and my examples are technically correct.

Your points are mute as far as FPS's go. The conroller is definately better for certain genres, but not FPS. I never said you can't play FPS on console or with a controller, they are just better on PC with M/K. If you don't have a gaming PC, which I suspect to be the case, then I can see why you feel this way. I've always had a rig, plus every single console. I love consoles, and PC Gaming. I speak only from experience as a 29 year old. All of my friends, even the most hardcore console users, all admit that the M/K setup is the most ideal for FPS, although they prefer to play them on console. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But, I do have a problem when people try to say that the controller is better for FPS, this just isn't true. Just look at the games and it will tell you a whole lot. FPS games on PC are much different than on console. Console AI is not nearly as smart, it's slower paced, it includes autoaim and sticky aim. Why you ask? Because it is neccessary in order to have a more cohesive experience. Plain and simple. Just look at FASA. They had to tweak the controller and slow the mouse down in order to level the playing field. That should tell you something right there.

BTW, 8 directions is all you need for FPS, but in other genres it's different. The mouse points in the direction where you want to go, that is much more precise than anyting a thumb stick can do(Not to mention headlook which is another plus for a mouse). And don't try and tell me that you can run look and shoot at the same time, as you only have two hands. Get over it already.

I am not and have not argued that controllers are better for FPS. I have been simply arguing that movement is better - and no 8 directions is not enough.

It is so easy to move one direction while shooting in another with a controller that I can't even believe you said it isn't. Not only is it easy, but if you are good with a controller, you can run in a perfectly straight line while turning and shooting in ANY direction. THAT is the thumbstick advantage - you can make an EXACT adjustment to counter any turn in aiming/looking. Does it make it better than M/K overall? No. I am not saying that. But you CANNOT keep moving North, let's say, in a perfectly straight line while shooting SSW with a K/M. You would need 16 directions to do that. Besides jumping to an object... you know that you have to switch keys and make adjustments when you are looking or firing at someone. You don't need to with a controller. You push towards where you are jumping and that is exactly the direction you go. No need for adjustments.

I actually find it funny that so many of you take insult by the fact that a controller MIGHT be better at ONE THING where FPSs are concerned. Even though the numbers PROVE IT. The argument "8 directions is enough" would be like me saying pixel-point accuracy is not needed for aiming with a mouse... an area of 9 pixels is "enough." That's probably what the accuracy of a controller is, relative. So is that fine too?

You use a M/K very differently than a gamepad. They are not comparable. Headlook on a mouse is a lot faster, and that is used for movement.

Were you old enough to play Quake III back in the day? The dreamcast players got creamed by the PC Gamers when they allowed  crossplatform, not gimped.  That pretty much proved the whole idea was terrible, hence why FASA had to gimp the M/K and tweak the controller to make Shadowrun work. 

As I said, movement is MARGINAL at best with FPS, and does not give you an edge with a controller, not even close. When you are firing, you have to look where you want to fire, ALWAYS, that's all that matters. You don't need 16 directions, not in an FPS. You only need headlook to turn and move, which is extremely quick with a M/K. If I am heading north, and I want to fire SSW, I spin the mouse to SSW while hitting the opposite up or down arrow and one of the left or right movement buttons. I can do it just as fast as with a thumbstick. A M/K user has many more options than a controller user, as a Keyboard user has five fingers all working seperately with one hand. Any quickness with the thumbpad is negated by this fact.  

If you want to talk about movement, how fast does it take to turn around with a controller vs. a K/M? That's a simple one, the M/K is much much much faster. Play Halo 1 for PC , then play in on xbox to prove it or do a side by side comparison. 

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]That's great for a lot of genres, but not FPS.Like vandal has stated, it's marginal. What's important to movement in FPS is HEADLOOK. That's it. On a keyboard you have 5 fingers for buttons at any given time, plus the ability to map them according to your liking. With a controller, you have two thumbs **and an index finger**. Overall, which is more versatile? Mystikef

Stop talking about all the other keys and focus on movement.... as that is all I have been talking about. Four keys compared to an omnidirectional thumbstick with near-infinite number of speeds. Besides... a thumbstick only needs one thumb.

If I felt like taking the time to draw you guys a map, and if you were even remotely willing to think outside of the box, you would get it.

Let me try again with words:

Your are running North and an enemy jumps out directly in front of you but a ways away. A firefight starts.

You realise that a Rocket Launcher is directly to your West. You straffe left to go get it while firing at the guy that is North of you. As you straffe West.... your body has to turn back to shoot at the guy who is now North and somewhat East of you. Now your "A" key is no longer taking you directly West, but slightly North as well. You are no longer heading towards the Rocket launcher. So you adjust by hitting the "S"key to head back South for a moment before finally heading West again and getting the Rocket Launcher. (obviously 8 directions would help this out a little compared to four)

Witha thumbstick, you can make subtle adjustments the entire way and always stay heading directly West, despite that you have to keep changing angles to shoot at the jerk that is shooting at you. You get to where you are going faster (straight line is the fastest) get the rocket launcher quicker, and take that jerk down a full .4 seconds earlier. And you KNOW .4 seconds can make a difference.

I think you will all admit using 8 directions is better than four, right? Well why isn't 16 better? Or 32? Or infinite? Why is 8 the magic number? Why is two speeds perfect? Why not 3 speeds? Why not 5? Why not infinite?

Just give me some LOGIC why 8 directions is BETTER than infinite. What is the advantage? Someone answer that.

Anything more than 8 directions is not going to give you an advantage. Not when a mouse has the quickness of headlook over a controller. That example is no problem with a M/K whatsoever. Don't forget about straffe keys on the keyboard.  Do you have CS:S? If so , I'll make a server so you and maybe Vandal can join and we will settle this. :P 

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]That's great for a lot of genres, but not FPS.Like vandal has stated, it's marginal. What's important to movement in FPS is HEADLOOK. That's it. On a keyboard you have 5 fingers for buttons at any given time, plus the ability to map them according to your liking. With a controller, you have two thumbs **and an index finger**. Overall, which is more versatile? mismajor99

Stop talking about all the other keys and focus on movement.... as that is all I have been talking about. Four keys compared to an omnidirectional thumbstick with near-infinite number of speeds. Besides... a thumbstick only needs one thumb.

If I felt like taking the time to draw you guys a map, and if you were even remotely willing to think outside of the box, you would get it.

Let me try again with words:

Your are running North and an enemy jumps out directly in front of you but a ways away. A firefight starts.

You realise that a Rocket Launcher is directly to your West. You straffe left to go get it while firing at the guy that is North of you. As you straffe West.... your body has to turn back to shoot at the guy who is now North and somewhat East of you. Now your "A" key is no longer taking you directly West, but slightly North as well. You are no longer heading towards the Rocket launcher. So you adjust by hitting the "S"key to head back South for a moment before finally heading West again and getting the Rocket Launcher. (obviously 8 directions would help this out a little compared to four)

Witha thumbstick, you can make subtle adjustments the entire way and always stay heading directly West, despite that you have to keep changing angles to shoot at the jerk that is shooting at you. You get to where you are going faster (straight line is the fastest) get the rocket launcher quicker, and take that jerk down a full .4 seconds earlier. And you KNOW .4 seconds can make a difference.

I think you will all admit using 8 directions is better than four, right? Well why isn't 16 better? Or 32? Or infinite? Why is 8 the magic number? Why is two speeds perfect? Why not 3 speeds? Why not 5? Why not infinite?

Just give me some LOGIC why 8 directions is BETTER than infinite. What is the advantage? Someone answer that.

Anything more than 8 directions is not going to give you an advantage. Not when a mouse has the quickness of headlook over a controller. That example is no problem with a M/K whatsoever. Don't forget about straffe keys on the keyboard.  Do you have CS:S? If so , I'll make a server so you and maybe Vandal can join and we will settle this. :P 

Bad idea. I may be super pro Cal-I all star survival of the fittest CPL winnar in COD, but im baaad at CSS. :SVandalvideo

What are you scared Vandal :P :P

This is the only way we are going to settle this.

[QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"][QUOTE="mismajor99"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]

Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:

You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock... with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time... forward... now to the right a little, now diagnol... and landed! With a controller... push directly toward the rock and land. It's simple, faster, and more precise. You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees." That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what the number is... you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing.

And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers... well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games. Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs. Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons: PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments. But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller.

mismajor99

Wrong answer. No PC Gamer uses a gamepad over a M/K for FPS games. Racing and Sports and Platformers, yes. That's why there is a market for them. Only console gamers that don't know how to use a K/M that end up on a PC, use a gamepad.

You have repeatedley stated that you have won the argument, yet I see nothing in any of you posts, just random hypotheticals. If gampads were truly better, PC Gamers would be using them for FPS. What you fail to realize is that the genre was created for the M/K, not the controller. It's a PC genre, brought to consoles with auto-aim and slower paced games for a reason.

Also, do youself a favor and look any professional gamer, what are they using for FPS on PC? Mouse and Keyboard everytime. Are they all stuborn? Stop lying to yourself. You can love the gamepad all you want, it's not a better solution.

Great... another closed minded PC gamer making every other PC gamer look bad. :roll:

The EXAMPLES I gave are correct. The thumbstick gives more accuracy for momevent. It is completely illogiccal to think 4 or 8 directions of movement at two speeds (maximum) can somehow be equally as accurate as complete omnidirectional movement at any speed. Denying that will just make you look foolish.

I know some PC gamers like to think that FPS is their precious little genre, but FPS's play great on consoles as well.

As for your comment about "Every FPS contest using K/M" well... you are correct if it is a PC contest. But if you check the rules I think you will find that you are nNOT ALLOWED to use a controller in those contests... therefore, every serious PC gamer MUST use a K/M in practice and for these contests. It has nothing to do with the K/M being better. Even though, many PC gamers think it is.

You are welcome to your opinion on what "you prefer" but don't try an tell anyone with a tad bit of smarts that 8 directions is as accurate as infinite directions, nor that infinite different speeds is less accurate than 1 or 2 speeds. It's ridiculous, and you are owning yourself everytime say it. Even second graders can do that simple math. How much it affects gameplay might be up for discussion, but the accuracy is all in the numbers. The examples I gave show how I think it affects gameplay, and my examples are technically correct.

Your points are mute as far as FPS's go. The conroller is definately better for certain genres, but not FPS. I never said you can't play FPS on console or with a controller, they are just better on PC with M/K. If you don't have a gaming PC, which I suspect to be the case, then I can see why you feel this way. I've always had a rig, plus every single console. I love consoles, and PC Gaming. I speak only from experience as a 29 year old. All of my friends, even the most hardcore console users, all admit that the M/K setup is the most ideal for FPS, although they prefer to play them on console. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But, I do have a problem when people try to say that the controller is better for FPS, this just isn't true. Just look at the games and it will tell you a whole lot. FPS games on PC are much different than on console. Console AI is not nearly as smart, it's slower paced, it includes autoaim and sticky aim. Why you ask? Because it is neccessary in order to have a more cohesive experience. Plain and simple. Just look at FASA. They had to tweak the controller and slow the mouse down in order to level the playing field. That should tell you something right there.

BTW, 8 directions is all you need for FPS, but in other genres it's different. The mouse points in the direction where you want to go, that is much more precise than anyting a thumb stick can do(Not to mention headlook which is another plus for a mouse). And don't try and tell me that you can run look and shoot at the same time, as you only have two hands. Get over it already.

I am not and have not argued that controllers are better for FPS. I have been simply arguing that movement is better - and no 8 directions is not enough.

It is so easy to move one direction while shooting in another with a controller that I can't even believe you said it isn't. Not only is it easy, but if you are good with a controller, you can run in a perfectly straight line while turning and shooting in ANY direction. THAT is the thumbstick advantage - you can make an EXACT adjustment to counter any turn in aiming/looking. Does it make it better than M/K overall? No. I am not saying that. But you CANNOT keep moving North, let's say, in a perfectly straight line while shooting SSW with a K/M. You would need 16 directions to do that. Besides jumping to an object... you know that you have to switch keys and make adjustments when you are looking or firing at someone. You don't need to with a controller. You push towards where you are jumping and that is exactly the direction you go. No need for adjustments.

I actually find it funny that so many of you take insult by the fact that a controller MIGHT be better at ONE THING where FPSs are concerned. Even though the numbers PROVE IT. The argument "8 directions is enough" would be like me saying pixel-point accuracy is not needed for aiming with a mouse... an area of 9 pixels is "enough." That's probably what the accuracy of a controller is, relative. So is that fine too?

You use a M/K very differently than a gamepad. They are not comparable. Headlook on a mouse is a lot faster, and that is used for movement.

Were you old enough to play Quake III back in the day? The dreamcast players got creamed by the PC Gamers when they allowed  crossplatform, not gimped.  That pretty much proved the whole idea was terrible, hence why FASA had to gimp the M/K and tweak the controller to make Shadowrun work. 

As I said, movement is MARGINAL at best with FPS, and does not give you an edge with a controller, not even close. When you are firing, you have to look where you want to fire, ALWAYS, that's all that matters. You don't need 16 directions, not in an FPS. You only need headlook to turn and move, which is extremely quick with a M/K. If I am heading north, and I want to fire SSW, I spin the mouse to SSW while hitting the opposite up or down arrow and one of the left or right movement buttons. I can do it just as fast as with a thumbstick. A M/K user has many more options than a controller user, as a Keyboard user has five fingers all working seperately with one hand. Any quickness with the thumbpad is negated by this fact.  

If you want to talk about movement, how fast does it take to turn around with a controller vs. a K/M? That's a simple one, the M/K is much much much faster. Play Halo 1 for PC , then play in on xbox to prove it or do a side by side comparison. 

Thankyou for at least giving reasons and examples why you think movement is better on a k/m.  You are the first to do that.

I guess as more and more games cross the PC-Console barrier, the answer to this question will be resolved once and for all.  Of course...  console players will need to turn off their auto-aim for it to be completely fair.

I have done both...  k/m and controllers, though I prefer controllers now for FPS.  I am not the only PC gamer to feel that way, though I am not a harrdcore PC gamer by any means.  I spend about 60%-70% of my gaming on a console.

Though I am not by any means the best FPS player out there, I find it much easier to do subtle manuevering with a controller, and logic would seem to back me up with unlimited directions and unlimited speeds.  But who knows....  maybe I am wrong.  All I do know is I don't want to argue about it anymore since there is not any way to prove either side correct.  I'd just rahter say you are all right, I am absolutely and utterly wrong, and I am going to move on to something else now.  Thanks for playing.

Okay, PC'ers. How about this for a scenario--an FPS scenario in a minefield. Now, you need both precision shooting and precision moving--both at speed. Slow down and you're a sitting duck, but make one wrong turn and you step on a mine.HuusAsking

You guys talk about having a limited directional movement as something crippling. To tell you the truth, from years of playing FPS on PC, I have NEVER noticed that I even had limited directional movement until you guys have mentioned it. I have never encountered an occation when I remotely needed to strafe in 16 different directions. Guess most of console gamers have never played Quake or UT, but all those precision jumps and dodge moves can easily be performed with WASD. If anything, I'm kind of worried that Epic will gimp dodge moves and dodge jumps in UT3 because it would be much more difficult for console gamers to perform any of those moves using analog sticks. 

[QUOTE="HuusAsking"]Okay, PC'ers. How about this for a scenario--an FPS scenario in a minefield. Now, you need both precision shooting and precision moving--both at speed. Slow down and you're a sitting duck, but make one wrong turn and you step on a mine.MyLargefeet

You guys talk about having a limited directional movement as something crippling. To tell you the truth, from years of playing FPS on PC, I have NEVER noticed that I even had limited directional movement until you guys have mentioned it. I have never encountered an occation when I remotely needed to strafe in 16 different directions. Guess most of console gamers have never played Quake or UT, but all those precision jumps and dodge moves can easily be performed with WASD. If anything, I'm kind of worried that Epic will gimp dodge moves and dodge jumps in UT3 because it would be much more difficult for console gamers to perform any of those moves using analog sticks. 

You know someone that played with a controller only for years could say he never had a problem with aiming.  Until you try it for a while you just won't understand what  mouse offers in aiming.  Or you won't understand what a stick offers in moving.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. Mystikef

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

how about this,,

you want to jump over the rock to shoot at the person behind it,, but you cant push A on your xbox controller at the same time as aiming with the analog stick, because both are used by your thumb,, the pc gamer has no problem hitting the space bar, and double-tapping with the mouse..  you then die.

in short, console gamers cant aim and jump at the same time

[QUOTE="Mystikef"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Mystikef"]Let me give an EASY example... even though there are thousands of examples where the precise control comes in:You jump off a cliff and want to land on the tip of a rock...  with a keyboard, you make one directional adjustment at a time...  forward...  now to the right a little, now diagnol...  and landed!  With a controller...  push directly toward the rock and land.  It's simple, faster, and more precise.  You could actually run out of time making the jump using a M/K because you have to make one directional adjustment at a time.I have no idea what you are talking about when you say who thinks "I want to turn 33.4 degrees."  That makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what the number is...  you can just push the thumbstick in that exact direction and go directly there - no matter which way you are facing. And for whomever asked why PC gamers don't use controllers...  well, I do... not always, but I certainly have with certain games.  Obviously others do as well or there wouldn't be 20 models of controllers available for PCs.  Someone is buying them. But there are two other reasons:  PC only players are stubborn, as all of you are proving with completely illogical arguments.  But mostly, because the improved ease of aiming with a mouse is more important to them than the improved moveability of a controller. izzi88

Man are you stubborn.  You will argue that the mouse is more precise because the numbers prove it..  but even though the numbers prove the movement of a thumbstick isw MUCH GREATER than that of WASD, you deny it.

So in my last example... what if you were firing while jumping to that rock?  Now you completely miss the jump or stop firing.  The guy on a controller would make the jump AND keep firing, even if slightly less accurately.

I know you are one of those people that just can't change your mind, even if you are wrong..  but you are wrong.  Movement is more precise with an analog stick and it is beneficial to most FPS.  I am sure you are fine and dandy with WASD, but it doesn't make it better.  I am fine with aiming with a thumbstick, but at least I am wise enough to know that a mouse is more accurate.

You can reply if you want...  but I made my case with examples and facts...  and all you have been able to say is movement is not that important in an FPS, and having restricted movement is just as good as complete omidirectional movement.  Sorry..  but you are wrong.

how about this,,

you want to jump over the rock to shoot at the person behind it,, but you cant push A on your xbox controller at the same time as aiming with the analog stick, because both are used by your thumb,, the pc gamer has no problem hitting the space bar, and double-tapping with the mouse..  you then die.

in short, console gamers cant aim and jump at the same time