[QUOTE="Last-Resort"]Separating responses to you by your sentence walls:
1. Why would you think anybody had to remember how many pokemon there where? All you did in the games is play with what you wanted, then explored and got more usually after the SP, so this point seems off. It's not intimidating unless you make it.
2. Backtracking is not exploration. You already explored most of what you would have found items/people/sages already. Also, there is a difference between aking the game easier for people like kids, and dumbing down the difficulty providing almost no sense of achievement after doing something in the game.
3. From indication of the console games, 3D Models are the wrong direction for the series sales and financialwise. Not even the fanbase expanded (though halted for the past couple games) didn't want the 3D games. Not to mention the 3D models were not really impressive and took up a lot of space that could have been used for other things. Also, I do not believe that it is acceptable for the games to take this long just to have almost average animation. They can do more, I think they are taking small steps as much as possible so they don't end up on the 3DS. Also, the point of Gyms is the leader is the master of his kind, while I can partially agree with you on the people in the gym in SOME CASES, the Gym Leader should only have their type or there's no real point. Elaborate on your last setence.
4. I don't agree with this, all the console pokemon games are not exactly easy, many are tedious, and require a different set of patience, and seem more complicated with more though out plots in some cases (XD Gale of Darkness anyone?) while the Portable versions have been declining and being more dumbed down, and in comparisons, lack many improvements, and the 3D games seem to have way more effort put into them. IMO anyway. I also think that the BW2 thing is mostly to stay away from the 3DS, AND while there is still a fanbase on DS, it starts to show lose of interest the more DS Pokemon games come (The Gold and Silver remakes were supposed to expand the fanbase and have the older fans come back and it didn't exactly work out that way, the spin-offs did worse than all the spin-offs on other systems in th same number ratio, BW didn't expand the fanbase either. I believe lack of expansion will end up hurting the series at some point since Digimon did the same thing but much earlier before Pokemon did with this strategy.) Although me personally would like them to just take the 3DS risk, they might be able to work with it.
5. As the series has started and has been going on, there have been less additions and improvements to the next game in line the further you go. A lot of things Pokemon has recently added are already standards in other games and Jrpgs. Which is why I say copy pasta because they don;t seem to put in effort. While I see your point about Pokemon always being "Casual" Casual then and Casual now are 2 different things. Pokemon actually got more dumbed down and easier after every installment (Almost) to the next in line. (Pokemon didn't exist when I was in Elementary School.) I do appreciate the actual friendly discussion approach you are doing here, hopefully we can continue in this way.Zassimick
A couple of things I want to say before I respond: first off, I apologize for taking so long to respond. I had a message typed up to the 4th point and then I for some stupid reason went to a different website on the page.:x Second, thanks for enjoying the pleasant discussion; people may not always agree on things but that doesn't mean either person is wrong. And third, I want to apologize a second time for those blobs of text. :P Anywho, my replies to your points:
1. The amount of Pokemon that are there creates a barrier to entry for new consumers. I personally know quite a few people, gamers who haven't played since RBY and nongamers who have never played Pokemon say that 493 Pokemon is intimidating, too intimidating. While the number may not bother many of us, there are those it bothers. I also want to say that my own personal experiences cannot speak for the general populus, but I am going to assume that if I know a few people that are like this there are others that share the feeling. I'm a bad person for assuming...:twisted:
2. There may be plenty of backtracking in BW but when you defeat Ghetsis at the end you not only unlock three new cities, one that changes depending on how much you do online, but you also should have all the HMs by then to go search the other areas a la Metroid. By that, I mean there's some exploration at the beginning but there are many other pathways that are closed off to you, then when you get the right tools to cross more becomes available. That happened to me with BW and it never felt stale going back to different areas.
The difficulty topic is a sticky situation. For some gamers the games are way too easy, for others they are difficult. The beauty of the Pokemon games is that if you really want to you can make the games more difficult. A Nuzlocke run, not evolving your Pokemon, taking the Gym Leader philosophy and using all one type of Pokemon, there are plenty of different ways to make the experience more rewarding for you. Should the games rely on the players to take the actions needed to make it difficult? No, plain and simple. So I understand the complaint but know that there are ways to make the game more difficult and it is nice that these games have enough freedom in their mechanics to allow for that.
3. I agree that 3D models should stay out of the handheld games. I've only played the N64 console games, but judging from images of the newer games plus looking at the 3DS Pokedex, the Pokemon lose some of their charm and personality in the transition to 3D. Animation is iffy for me to comment on because I don't know how much goes into it, but I can imagine for 649 Pokemon plus alternate forms that creating animations for each one would take a lot of effort. I'd say the steps they have made a good step forward in that department but, like you argue, it feels like they could do more.
The gym leader point I made earlier was that I think they should focus less on typings and more on certain themes. Instead of a Grass gym leader or a Dragon gym leader they instead take on a more Elite 4 approach. A Shadow gym leader, one that focuses on Dark, Ghost, Poison; or a Summer gym leader that uses Flying, Grass, Water, and other unique typings. That would help add to the difficulty of the game since you wouldn't know what type a gym leader will send out next, plus it will get rid of the idea that gym leaders should only have Pokemon of their type.
4. I haven't played many of the console games but I must say its interesting reading your comments on the console experiences and handheld experiences. The console experiences are more complicated with thought-out plots while the handheld games are declining, yet the sales of the handhelds skyrocket over the sales of the console games. I'm not saying your opinions of the games are wrong because of sales, I just thought it was an interesting thing to note. The remakes, BW, they brought new fans, brought old fans back, and kept current fans happy for the most part. I can see what you mean on the expansions side and keeping the games on the DS, but I'd argue that many fans may not have gotten themselves a 3DS yet so a direct sequel to BW would be missing a very large chunk of their audience.
I also would have preferred a 3DS game instead of another DS installment. That's just not how its going to go though, not yet anyways. It's just something we'll have to deal with for now; I am with you on this point though.
5. I think there are many additions and improvements that happen under the hood, mainly streamlining. One of my favorite features that continues to improve is using your PC and organizing your boxes. I went to play Platinum and, boy, was that a pain to navigate since there wasn't touch-screen support! But Black and White is very easy to use and I can imagine they'll continue to improve that little feature. That's the thing, the games are a lot like a sports franchise but not a yearly release: many people who don't play the games assume there are very few changes aside from roster and graphics, when actually for those that delve deep into the games' mechanics there are so many things that have been improved.
There are many things that are being taken from other JRPGs that have been staples in the genre but are just now being implemented, but you have to think that there are things Pokemon has done that other series take as well. It goes both ways, though maybe there isn't as many things taken from Pokemon (especially today) but there are still innovations had by both Pokemon and other JRPGs and it is natural to assume devs would take great ideas and work them in.
I may have missed a few of your points (I hope I didn't.) If you would like to clear up anything else or if another topic should be raised I'd be happy to contribute more to the discussion tomorrow.
1. It still seems odd, especially when you don't start out with that many on the first playthrough until after you beat the game, and even then you can hold off getting the bigger pokedex until you fill the one you started with.
2. Yes, but these new areas unlocked barely have any actual content in them and serve as filler and really don't add anything but something that opens when youy are patient enough to meet certain objectives. Also a lot of the areas except a few are similar to what we already have seen.
As for difficulty, I do not agree on some of what you said, but I see the point you're trying to make.
3. Your Gym leader point, for the handheld games anyway, would be a tad unfair considering the type you are limited to when you start, and how haveing a gym leader with grass and water type pokemon with a fire type pokemon would just be tedious. All Pokemon games have limits to what types are available for at least the first 4 gyms or more. Most likely what you choose as a starter, and what you end up with using your formula, would make the game either unfair, tedious (lots of grinding), or would be based on luck and you may have to start the game over.
As for 3D models, I think that the problem is that except with XD, the creators have problems transulating battles into 3D. That, and the fact that they don;t seem to know how to make a more open 3D game in the lieks of the handhelds. XD gale of darkness for example, it's the best 3D Pokemon game IMO and yet, while it is designed well enough with effort, it has closed paths is linear, and has a very contained story that follows a set route and the game is designedcthe same. There's also not very many options during or after the story that offer mch variety. The story is the only reason you would play it.
The other 3D pokemon games except a few don't even have stories and have terrible content. But, while my points may address that going 3D may hurt the series (although XD was good but still not a great game.) they should be going to 3D instead of hiding from it so they can improve. A Open world 3D pokemon game with content and a story like in XD would be great. Maybe add character personallity to some charactersinstead of scriptes static. Create immersive worlds so that for once we would actually feel like we are there. Etc.
4. But at the same time, moving on would help them expand the audience. The sales of P/D/PL, SS/HG/ and B/W are all virtually the same because they aren't really attracting the audiences Nintendo was trying to get, such as the H/G/S/ fans which really didn't do really well in attracting them, and B/W, which I believe, along with the TV show which apparently is now not even relevant and forgot its continuity, were to expand the fanbase which did not work. I would say it actually made it slightly less except for some curious new comers.
They can't do what Digimon did and think that the fanbase will keep taking similar games in the same place without attempting to change a few thing and expand the fanbase, because staying in one place will not work.
As for sales of the Handheld versions outselling the Console games, it kind of makes sense as Pokemon is getting dumbed down in my opinion, although still also in someways targeting kids and lesser rg gamers in some ways. Yet the consolegames are aiming for everyone with few exceptions.
THe console games have a more well though out plot, have sequels (Collosium>XD gale of darkness for example), have more strategy and though in the battles, have more trial and error, have other wyas of leveling up then grinding, some don;t even have random battles (XD), original sidequests and sercrets, some actually change the game based on what you do during the initial playthrough. Much harder to make a party to work against what's thrown at you. It has a more open MP, People joining your party are more of an impact as they don;t have the personality of static. The organization are more organized and not just scripted "What's this kid doing here? I will stop you! No I lost!". The enemies actually have brains, kidnapping people and such. And more I haven't said. It's like the exact opposite of the handhelds. People (Other than the N64 games in some cases) have always had problem moving on or trying to do both because they are different from each other.
5.Adding Gimmicks for conveinece and improving aren't really the same. For example, you talk about organized touch screen boxes, but that's not really an improvement as what i the next Nintendo handheld does not have a touch screen?
Also, while I do agree they do add thing, they are really not or barely improving, and it seems to be doing the opposite of improving. Instead of improving, game seems to be sucking out its originality, its difficulty, its world design, and variety, and replacing that with just some thing being more conveient easier (in some cases dumbed down.)
Not really, Pokemon has been BEHIND BEHIND others and it's using eatures that were already been in ther Jrpgs and passing them off as acheivements or innovations. Yet to be honest even when they add these, they barely most of the time actualy improve the game, they just either replace thing or add them to make easier alternatives to things. However, they need to implement things better and make it have more of an impact in the games.
i'm sorry, but he's as "cool" and "badass" as the history channel aliens dude. 
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